Author Topic: There are no contradictions in the Bible!  (Read 4362 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #203 on: July 27, 2015, 06:06:00 PM »
I don't really see any benefit in making stuff up if you want to convince people of something.
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Quote
It seems like if all the supernatural stuff was left out then it would be easier to accept the
entire package.
That's apparently not the case.

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So I don't see the value in suggesting anything supernatural happened.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #204 on: July 27, 2015, 06:20:13 PM »
I don't really see any benefit in making stuff up if you want to convince people of something.

There is such a thing as self deception. It is the commonest kind.

You also need to learn something about ancient composition. Authors were expected to add fictional speeches and illustrative action to give their own meaning to events.

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It seems like if all the supernatural stuff was left out then it would be easier to accept the
entire package.  So I don't see the value in suggesting anything supernatural happened.

At the time of Jesus prophets were expected to do miracles. One of the other Jewish prophets at the time of Jesus led a bunch of people up a hill to do a miracle to impress the crowd to support him.  (it would be a hill wouldn't it? Gods liked hills.) Read Josephus.

Your problem is that you are looking at the text with modern eyes and not really understanding it or its nature.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #205 on: July 27, 2015, 06:23:25 PM »

The entire book of Revelation is nothing more than a subjective experience that this John fellow supposedly had, detailing fantastical events which haven't happened, and holds together about as well as a wet paper sack.  So don't try to lecture me about critical analysis, as if that would somehow magically make Revelation into a true divine vision granted to John from an angel.

And the first line in Revelations gives the impression that the book is a vision.
You might like to read jaimehlers' post: I have marked his main criticism of the Revelations of John the Divine in red.

Your reply, in blue, merely states that John had a vision. Upon this point you and jaimehlers are agreed. However, the validity of the vision is what is being questioned.

Could you put your mind to responding? Something to indicate the truth value of the Book of Revelations would be helpful. E.g. How can anyone accept Revelations as anything more than the ramblings of a deluded mind?

Looking forward to a solid reply,

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Offline Sky_Writing

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #206 on: July 31, 2015, 03:49:42 PM »

The entire book of Revelation is nothing more than a subjective experience that this John fellow supposedly had, detailing fantastical events which haven't happened, and holds together about as well as a wet paper sack.  So don't try to lecture me about critical analysis, as if that would somehow magically make Revelation into a true divine vision granted to John from an angel.

And the first line in Revelations gives the impression that the book is a vision.
You might like to read jaimehlers' post: I have marked his main criticism of the Revelations of John the Divine in red.

Your reply, in blue, merely states that John had a vision. Upon this point you and jaimehlers are agreed. However, the validity of the vision is what is being questioned.

Could you put your mind to responding? Something to indicate the truth value of the Book of Revelations would be helpful. E.g. How can anyone accept Revelations as anything more than the ramblings of a deluded mind?

Looking forward to a solid reply,

GB Mod


They do seem much like "the ramblings of a deluded mind."
Now we just need to build the case for him being deluded.
The book is a start.  What else do we have to support the case?

Offline Sky_Writing

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #207 on: July 31, 2015, 03:53:40 PM »
I don't really see any benefit in making stuff up if you want to convince people of something.

There is such a thing as self deception. It is the commonest kind.

You also need to learn something about ancient composition. Authors were expected to add fictional speeches and illustrative action to give their own meaning to events.

Quote
It seems like if all the supernatural stuff was left out then it would be easier to accept the
entire package.  So I don't see the value in suggesting anything supernatural happened.

At the time of Jesus prophets were expected to do miracles. One of the other Jewish prophets at the time of Jesus led a bunch of people up a hill to do a miracle to impress the crowd to support him.  (it would be a hill wouldn't it? Gods liked hills.) Read Josephus.

Your problem is that you are looking at the text with modern eyes and not really understanding it or its nature.

You may be surprised to learn you're not the first critic of the Bible.
How many critics have supported the idea of self-deception?
Could you direct us to a couple?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #208 on: July 31, 2015, 05:32:26 PM »
They do seem much like "the ramblings of a deluded mind."
Now we just need to build the case for him being deluded.
The book is a start.  What else do we have to support the case?
The book is all we have regarding John of Patmos.  Therefore, since it reads like the ramblings of a deluded mind, there is little point in assuming it as anything but unless and until we have something to show that he was not deluded.
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Offline Hamsaka

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #209 on: August 01, 2015, 12:38:18 AM »
Quote
They do seem much like "the ramblings of a deluded mind."
Now we just need to build the case for him being deluded.
The book is a start.  What else do we have to support the case?

How about that these so called ramblings of a deluded mind that God made part of the Bible?  John of Patmos thought they were true enough to commit to papyrus, and back then, that was a huge deal.  It was like us going to a financial advisor, to find someone to transcribe your words (most people couldn't read or write, it probably wasn't necessary to be successful).  The materials were very expensive and definitely not handy.

So we have a chapter in the Bible that appears to have been written by a man suffering a terrible fever

We have evidence (the book itself) J of P actually believed all of that nonsense.  Obviously, he's a nutjob.

That is 100% more evidence to ignore The Book of Revelations.  Think of the implications, if you are a person who won't dare ignore The Book of Revelations.  You can stop :) 

Offline wheels5894

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #210 on: August 01, 2015, 04:53:09 AM »
I think Revelation can be rescued from being from a deluded mind but one needs to be familiar with the writing of Apocalyptic literature in the Inter-testamental and post biblical periods. These sorts of writings were a lot more common that most people know as only this one made the NT. They were usually written by an anonymous author who would attribute it to a famous figure in the OT and they do read rather like Revelation, apart from the letters to the churches of course.

The point to make is that the language could have been used to conceal the message to the Christians during the Neroan persecution being a bit like a code that a person who had not read the biblical literature could not understand. I think the author was certainly looking for divine intervention to sort out the Romans and save the Christians. It is certainly not about a prediction for thousands of years into the future as some groups seem to think.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline median

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Re: There are no contradictions in the Bible!
« Reply #211 on: August 16, 2015, 11:30:42 AM »

They do seem much like "the ramblings of a deluded mind."
Now we just need to build the case for him being deluded.
The book is a start.  What else do we have to support the case?


I don't care if he was deluded or not. The fact is, textual claims to the supernatural and/or the miraculous are not sufficient to establish that any miracle has occurred. So flat out, the bible is not enough (and neither is any other ancient holy book of claims - book of Mormon, Mithra, Apollonius of Tyana, etc). You need extra-ordinary evidence, not just claims in old books.

Faith=Gullibility
« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 11:33:24 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan