It's hard for atheists to understand God (split)

[Alzael]

Jesus is talking metaphorically.
He often taught by parables.

Except you can't actually claim this. Yes he says that he taught by parables, but the problem is that there is no way to tell the difference what he really meant. Unless you take what is said literally you can never claim to understand what is being said. To claim that you understand what Jesus means without any evidence to back it up and prove that you're right, means that you are being dishonest. You have to take it literally or admit that it means anything.

[modbreak]Fixed quoting[/modbreak]

[cheezisgoooood]

I believe your taking things out of context. I say this because the only time that a disciple
bore his sword was when the roman soldiers came for Him. I believe it was Peter who cut the
ear off one of them. Jesus healed him and corrected Peter. Jesus is talking metaphorically.
He often taught by parables.
He corrected Peter on a few occasions, even calling him satan. We know Jesus loved Peter
and even reinstated him after His resurrection.
I'm sorry that we don't feel the same way. Will you please refrain from calling names and
being disrespectful.

You come here, proselytize, talk down to us, and act like you know more, when you clearly don't, and your only argument is "Jesus was speaking metaphorically, he didn't really mean it literally."  Jesus didn't SAY he was talking metaphorically.  Nothing in the verses seems to SUGGEST that he was speaking metaphorically.  Yet, you conveniently write off anything you can't defend as being "metaphorical."  This is ground you cannot have an honest debate on.

[Alzael]

He created man in His image and likeness. He wants a relationship with us. Sin separates
us from Him. Mans fall was a huge fall. I don't think anyone is in hell yet because the time
hasn't come for that yet.

There's that "think" again. And again you're talking about things that aren't in evidence. What do you believe the bible says about lying?

[Timtheskeptic]

It's hard for atheists to understand God.

Oh, I never realized that Christians could understand him.

Some of you want to understand.

Oh I understood alright. From what I read in the Bible, he’s a tyrannical, diabolical, megalomaniacal dictator.

Some of you really do want to know God. How many of you have been sincere
with repentance from your heart?

Huh? You mean like, “Oh forgive me fatherGod for ever having been born a child to Adam and Eve, we’re worthless pieces of crap that existed all because someone decided that they should eat from a tree you told them not to, despite the fact they are like little children who knew nothing of right and wrong, forgive us all?” Sorry, I don’t think so.

How many of you talked to and acted upon
what you can not see? Did you ever have faith to begin with?

Faith alone is not a good enough reason to believe that he exists. How would I know if it’s your God and not Zeus or Odin? Seriously, I really prefer facts.

Has it ever occurred to you that God only chooses to reveal Himself to those whose hearts are sincere towards the things His heart desires?

Now where have I heard all this before? Oh right, all of the time. Seriously? God’s heart desires? What does he desire? Oh right, eternal worship and total obedience like mindless robots. But if that robot begins thinking for himself or herself, they’re damned to hell. Sorry, but your God is too damn insecure of himself and I refuse to worship those tyrants.

For an atheist to believe in God, they want
undeniable proof that He exists first. Has an atheist ever thought that if God did
this, the experience maybe a little overwhelming for them? It's better to do things
Gods way because He understands more than we do.

Um, what? He understands more than we do? From what I can see in the Bible and from the world around us, he understands nothing that we couldn’t figure out.  Times have been changing, but the bible remains the same and yet people who believes in this junk tries to pretend it means different things just to make it look benefitting to society. Much like painting an abandoned, scary looking Asylum with rainbows and teddy bears.

Pursuing God is part of a journey
that He rewards those who seek Him diligently. The moment that you realize God is real,
how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or
will you live to love? Maybe God really understands His own creation better than
atheist give Him credit for. MMMM?

MMMM? Sorry, but I think you got to do better than this. Get off your high horse, you really understand nothing about who we are. We understand the bible, we understand what your God is, we understand what your religion does. I want no part of it and I’m glad not to be a part of it.

[Emily]

I don't think anyone is in hell yet because the time
hasn't come for that yet.

so what. Since hell was already created because that's where he sent Satan after the war in heaven and before the garden of Edan, the fate of those who died without favor in god's eyes before he decided to send people to hell are just lying rotting in the ground not in any sort of an afterlife.

Why couldn't god have keep it like that: The righteous go to heaven (and some in the OT do go to heaven) and the sinners don't go to any form of an afterlife. Instead god changed this plan and decided to send sinners to burn for eternity? What gives.

[Dante]

Crazy, innit? The previous xtian to come here said the exact opposite of you, Libman. But, he would swear up and down, on the soul of his mother, that he had the correct interpretation! I'm sure he, and not you, was a true Christian. But, I "think" both of you are correct I your assertions, your beliefs. I don't think either of you will spend eternity suffering a fate eternal, a fate of unimaginable pain and agony. I think both of you will end up exactly where you really, truly think you'll end up; eternal, ignorant bliss.  No pain, no suffering, no human emotion whatsoever. Congratulations, you're going  to achieve heaven, my brother!

Of course, heaven after death will feel exactly the same as heaven before your birth, but......what's so bad about that, huh?

The only loss of any importance will be the brief stay in this hell hole we call reality.

[12 Monkeys]

 the WORD was not written by god was it? It was written by men,do you argue that point? If this is the case why are you a christian and not a mormon? Joseph Smith was the last "divinly" insired person to write for god. If you do not belive in Joseph Smith why would you believe another inspired "book" also written by men!

[Emily]

Can you show me where it says burning in hell for eternity?

Sure...

Mark 9:43 (King James Version)


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

...i bet this is also a metaphor.  :shrug

hint: Notice the word never. Kind of hits at eternity, doesn't it

[12 Monkeys]

ya and you dont drink ,smoke,whack off,covet,overeat ........the list goes on

[Alzael]

Can you show me where it says burning in hell for eternity?

Sure...

Mark 9:43 (King James Version)


43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

...i bet this is also a metaphor.  :shrug

hint: Notice the word never. Kind of hits at eternity, doesn't it

Shhhhhh, Emily you're confusing him with facts. You might spook him.

Besides, you also forgot Revelations 20:14-15 and Matthew 13:40 50 and Revelations 14:11. But I'm sure he knew that.

[12 Monkeys]

the WORD was not written by god was it? It was written by men,do you argue that point? If this is the case why are you a christian and not a mormon? Joseph Smith was the last "divinly" insired person to write for god. If you do not belive in Joseph Smith why would you believe another inspired "book" also written by men!

I believe the Bible to be written by the inspiration of God by His Holy Spirit through man.

I'm not a mormon  because I can't find anywhere in the Bible that says I have to wear
green underware. :shrug

HE (J.Smith) was divinly inspired Why would you dismiss him like I dismiss the writers of your book?

[12 Monkeys]

weakness is the same as sin is it not?You have the "choice" not to do it or the choice to "sin"

[Alzael]

But as pointed out before, you're supposed to be perfect to get into heaven. It's awfully convenient that you don't believe that part, isn't it?

[cheezisgoooood]

What I gather from this is: I would rather know and trust in Him than have to face what He's talking
about here. Whether literally or metaphorically.

But I'm sure if we were Muslims or Mormons or Hindus telling you about your horrible fate if you don't comply with our religion, you wouldn't find it all that threatening would you?  Only the religion that you've been brought up in seems to scare you, doesn't it?

Curious, isn't it?

[Timtheskeptic]

what am i doing on this forum? Debating, that's what i'm doing.

[cheezisgoooood]

God has been helping me overcome my fears everyday by love.

I'm sure Muslims and Mormons all say the same thing to this same question.  This is a non-answer.

[Dante]

Good on you for limiting your swearing Libman. But, why? Why limit anything, when all that's necessary for salvation is acceptance of Christ?

Would it surprise you, brother, to know that the vast, and I mean VAST majority of atheists on this site do not condone killing, rape, stealing, or otherwise violating their fellow humans? Do you find it feasible that that the people here donate time, money, and other viable resources ,to causes you would deem worthy? Do you, my brother, even fathom that one not need to be saved by your lord to be good, be human? Can you not see how your god, as much as you deleriously wish he exist, nor has an effect, is no longer needed for humanity to flourish? Would you be incredulous of the fact that your god is unnecessary to hold the belief that fiscally and individual conservtive political stances are beneficial to society? Are any of the above important to you or your god?

[Alzael]

But as pointed out before, you're supposed to be perfect to get into heaven. It's awfully convenient that you don't believe that part, isn't it?

No one earns salvation. Its the free gift of God.

Which directly contradicts just about everything in the bible. By the way have you figured out how many verses yet? It's so easy to believe when you just alter text to mean whatever you want, isn't it?

[cheezisgoooood]

You know, they probably do, I'm not condemning them. The mormons faith and other various Christian
faiths are supposed to be based from The Holy Bible. I don't see how because the Bible itself
makes clear everything we are supposed to do. Though I understand their need for God, I wander
if a lot of them have actually read the NT.

You'll find that almost everything you've said here on this forum, you'll find a ton of people also claiming to be Christian, who completely disagree.  The Bible can be interpreted many different ways, because the Bible is a flip-flopping, bipolar, inconsistent mess.

But I like how you didn't say anything for religions that are not Christian.  You do realize there is an entire 2 thirds of the earth who are not christian in any way shape or form, right?  A ton of them also claim that not following their religion results in damnation.

They also are not phased by your religion, and would respond to that same question, with the same or similar answer.  That they simply know it to be true and do not even have to explain it, somehow.

[Alzael]

But as pointed out before, you're supposed to be perfect to get into heaven. It's awfully convenient that you don't believe that part, isn't it?

No one earns salvation. Its the free gift of God.

Which directly contradicts just about everything in the bible. By the way have you figured out how many verses yet? It's so easy to believe when you just alter text to mean whatever you want, isn't it?

Your idea as perfection is not what He's meaning here.
The idea is perfect in love. Read the whole verse.

I did, you're making another assumption that is not in evidence. The entire passage talks about many different forms of morality with love simply being the last virtue it talks about before it tells you to be perfect like god. The whole of Mark 5 talks about being like god in everything you do. Your contention that being perfect only applies to love is without any basis and makes little sense if taken in context with the rest of what is being said. Again, you're lying. You can't claim that these things mean whatever pumps your religious gnads. You have to have justification. And more justification than that it gives you a funny feeling in your special place. Otherwise your claims make you a liar.

[Alzael]

Someone please remind me why this mindless imbecile is here again? Do you have anything intelligent to say, or are you incapable of anything but sermons that say nothing and show no understanding of what you're talking of. For that matter how about attempting a genuine thought.

[pingnak]

Yeah, 'cuz we don't understand other fictional characters, either.

[Alzael]

I mock you because you mostly just sit there and proselytize. I mock you because your answers are no more carefully considered or thought out than every other theist that comes here. I mock you because your answers are shallow, don't actually answer anything, and sound like you have had your mind ripped out and replaced with a random christian generator. I mock you because you show no originality or consideration of your words. I mock you because you try to portray the shallowness of your belief as depth. I mock you because you cannot back up your ideas, you ignore the fact that many of your ideas directly contradict other things in the book that you're taking them from. I mock you because you claim things that are not in evidence, and I mock you because you treat these things as fact.

Or to put it simply, I mock you because you have given me no reason to do anything else.

[Astreja]

What I gather from this is: I would rather know and trust in Him than have to face what He's talking about here. Whether literally or metaphorically.

I see things a little bit differently, lilbman.  I don't trust an entity that would resort to such tactics, nor do I ever want to find myself in a situation where I feel I have no choice but to attempt to trust such a being..  For me, Christianity has long been a non-starter because of the concepts of Original Sin, substitutionary atonement and the bloody, vindictive mayhem in Revelation.

This is an issue that I've brought to the attention of many Christians over the years, and I tend to get cardboard cut-out answers like:

"You'll be sorry!"
"Who are you to judge God?"
"God's ways are not our ways."
"...Loving *and* just..."
"Free gift!"

I know the Christian position pretty well.  I'm baffled as to why so few succeed in understanding *my* position.

It's unreasonable to expect that Christianity, or any other belief system, will magically just go away within my lifetime.  At the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a genuine dialogue, without canned-laughter sound bites.  What can we do to make this happen?

[Dante]

Just another preacher, thinking he, and only he, holds the truth to salvation.

Just another delusionist, wondering why every single person on the planet can't see his incoherent, inconsistent, illogical worldview.

IMO.

[Alzael]

See here's the thing. Listen to what everyone has been telling you. About four or five of us by this point have mentioned, some repeatedly, that you sound exactly like every other theist that comes here, just with a slightly different interpretation. If all you can do is mindlessly repeat scripture without any substance, what do you think you have to talk to us about? I've been on nearly non-stop for most of yesterday and today, and do you know how many of you have come through here? I've gone through about three or four of you in these last two days. And you really are no different. We've heard it all before. It was dumb then, it'll be dumb now, you can't even defend it as good as some of the others. Your arguments are weak and lifeless, you break up your points with preaching and mindless ramble. And again, you're just rehashing the exact same things that every other theist does. You all claim to know the bible. You all ignore whole sections of it for arbitrary reasons. You all think that only your way is the right way. You all refuse to even think about what's being said.

So my previous question still stand. Do you actually have anything to say?

[Aaron123]

If an infinite God were to exist (and He does), Why not try putting your faith in Him
rather than just look for answers within the knowledge of man. If God said that you have to
put faith in Him and He would reward you for your faith, why turn to a man to prove the existence
of faith. That's discrediting God on His word. That immediately insinuates lack of trust. God is
saying if you believe whom He says He is then you can trust Him in what He says. Having
faith in Him means that you acknowledge that He exists and that He is who He says He is.

If God intended everybody to have a rolex watch, we would indeed be wearing one.
Be cautious of the image the world has given Jesus. Seek Him for yourself so you will
know the truth.

Five pages, and I see all you're offering is stock preaching woo.  Do you really think we haven't heard this a million times already?  Nothing you've said is original or memorable.  Just the same, dull woo woo sermon christians offer when they proselytize.  Your god does not exist.  If he did, he would just do whatever it would take for us to believe in him.  He would not "wait" until we already believed in him.  On the other hand, if he didn't exist, then it would make perfect sense why christians insist on the "belive in god, and he'll come to you"  line.  For magical things to happen, you must first engage in magical thinking.

[Alzael]

So the answer is 'no' then.

[kcrady]

The adversary doesn't want you to know the truth. When you obey
Jesus, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. If you acknowledge your
sin and your need of a Savior (Jesus), Learn to love and truly forgive, you will know.

The adversary doesn't want you to know the truth that will set you free. The real Jesus.

Why would any "adversary" even bother to do such a thing?  What could he/she/it/they possibly hope to gain?  And from what you've said earlier, Yahweh plays an utterly magnificent game of hide and seek, such that you have to try really, really, really, really hard to believe in him[1] before he will condescend to finally give your heartstrings a little tug.  Right?  

So if the "adversary" had as its goal the prevention of most people from believing in Yahweh, he/she/it/they could just sit in the office reading TV Tropes all day, since Yahweh himself is doing all the hard work.[2]  But OK, let's say the "adversary" wanted to keep people from believing in Yahweh.  Why choose that strategy?  How would it help the "adversary" win?  If nobody believed in Yawheh, would he die?

BTW, if Yahweh is omnipotent, what sense does it even make to say that he has an "adversary?"  A conflict in which one side is omnipotent cannot endure, by definition (of both "conflict" and "omnipotent.").  So if Yahweh is engaged in a long-standing war against his "adversary," it is inescapable that either:

A) Yahweh is not omnipotent--he and his adversary are fairly evenly matched; Or,

B) The conflict is a sham, like a Navy SEAL play-wrestling with his four-year-old son.  It's not a real fight.

Then what was hell created for? Keep in mind that according to the bible Satan and his followers don't end up banished there until the end times. So it likely wasn't created for him. What is it for then?

Yes it is. It is a fatal ending for their blatant rejection and rebellion of God.

1.	Or maybe you have to take up a life of orgies and alcohol and drugs and cheap male prostitutes and voting Democrat until you're out of money, lying in an alley shaking from the withdrawal symptoms thinking, 'Dayummmm, this sucks!"  I'm not sure which.  Perhaps every megachurch ought to have an in-house pharmacopoeia, brothel, and night club to help get the process started?
2.	What, with placing us in a Cosmos that looks exactly like it would if it were a ~14 billion year-old naturalistic Cosmos with no miracle-working deity in it.  Not to mention all the fossils he faked to make it look like evolution happened.

Have you ever pondered the astounding epic courage such rebel angels would have to possess?  Think about it for a moment.  These rebel angels started out living with Yahweh, right there in Heaven, before there was any "sin" on which to blame the state of the world.  If Yahweh is all-powerful, they would know it, as surely as you and I know the Sun is bright.[3]  If Yahweh was of the temperament to build a realm of absolute, eternal misery for them as a penalty for rebellion, they would have known it, because they had a greater, more direct experience of Yahweh, his power and person than any human being on Earth can ever hope to have in this life.

What do you think could possibly motivate intelligent beings to rise in rebellion under those circumstances?  Put yourself in Lucifer's shoes as he's pondering the choice of whether he wants to lead a rebellion or remain in Yahweh's service.  What reasons would he have for rebellion?  What arguments could he give to persuade others to join him?

3.	Notice that there are no asunists who say the sun doesn't exist because they want to lie on the beach all day in skimpy clothes without getting sunburned.