It's hard for atheists to understand God (split)

[Dante]

That would be correct. I'm under the impression you've always wanted to believe.

Tell me, do you think you would have found Jesus had you been born to Muslim parents? If not, why not?

[Dante]

Then perhaps you could enlighten me on why you think all those billions of Muslims, having heard the good news of jc, still reject him as the son of god, yet still fervently believe in abramic god. Do they reject your god? Do they not believe enough, or incorrectly? Will they be saved, or does your god condemn them?

[Petey]

No really, I'm not, matter of fact I probably would be considered worse.
I never really went to church. I was saved and baptized at a young age.
I did this out of faith. It wasn't until I messed my life up so bad I new
that I needed help. I refused to give up.

This little nugget says it all.  Just another case of someone hitting what they consider to be rock bottom, and clinging to any doctrine that gives them hope.  Lilbman, if you hadn't been preconditioned to accept the god of the bible, you probably would have accepted any god that was presented to you during that time.

[Str82Hell]

Haha, porn addiction. I have an oxygen addiction.

[bertatberts]

If there would have been a book written like no other book ever about the tooth fairy recorded
from the perspective of four eye witnesses, then maybe.

So you would believe in the tooth fairy if there was a book and some eye witnesses, correct!
Then why don't you ask for the same evidence for you god?  Where is the book with eye witnesses for your god? I am being literal here, please supply the book, and "eye witnesses"? Thank you.

[Odin]

He gave me a job I didn't have to look for. The employer called me. My wife
just came home. She said she couldn't divorce even after the hell I put her
through. She said that she decided to just come home. She said she was just
going to trust God and whatever happens will happen. We're still married and I
haven't had a drink of alcohol in 4 years. He even restored my relationships
and all the bridges I had burnt with my in laws.

We ask for a sign, and this is what we get.  A job, a wife come home, and no alcohol. 

lilbman, we wanted something more concrete, something repeatable.

This kind of reminds me of a thread on another site in which a man said he knew god was real because god had helped him quit smoking.  Let's see - 25,000 children die every single day of malnutrition and preventable diseases, but god helped some dope quit smoking.

The world would be a better place, lilbman, if you helped carry food to starving children, and then drank yourself silly each night. 

Perspective is an awesome thing.

lilbman, the music is playing, the invocation is out.  Come down the aisle and give us your heart.  Join us in the enlightenment.  The light is really bright here.  Don't live in the darkness of faith and superstition.

Odin, King of the Gods

[Historicity]

If Scientologists pray hard enough, they "know" Xenu is real.
etc. etc.

A minor counterpoint.  Xenu is not God in Scientology.  Xenu is The Devil -- roughly speaking.

Scientologists are a kind of Gnostics, basically.   Xenu is the Demiurge.  He didn't create the universe but he trapped our souls on the Earth to be reincarnated into one miserable life after another.

Buddhism, Pythagoreanism, Hinduism and Gnosticism have the same cosmology and the same solution -- escape to nothingness.

L. Ron Hubbard's great revelation and revolution was to screw Xenu.  Buddhism, etc, are in Scientology's opinion quitters and cowards.  Fight back.  During your reincarnations do whatever heroic actions it takes to create the heaven on Earth you see in old scifi:  Shining cities, people walking around in tights and short capes, gardens, crime free, antigravity cars floating overhead.  We can do it, yes we can.

I sometimes admire their vision.  If it were only that it wasn't also a tremendously backbiting, vindictive cult whose current pope, David Miscavige, has even surpassed the founder as a greedy dick.

[Alzael]

I'm still curious to hear your answer to my question.

[Asmoday]

If there would have been a book written like no other book ever about the tooth fairy recorded
from the perspective of four eye witnesses, then maybe.

I'm sorry to inform you that the bible is not "a book written like no other book." That includes the New Testament.

The four Gospels are not written from the perspective of eyewitnesses. Even though the gospels share their names with apostles of the same name, they have not been authored by apostles or even other eyewitnesses. The gospel of Mark is the earliest written gospel and the earliest estimate for that is 70 CE. All other gospels have been written after that point (in some cases decades later).

Another thing that should be kept in mind is the fact that the texts we know as gospels today were not known as Gospels of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John till the late second century. It gets even worse when we look at other historical texts where early apologists refer to the gospels but what they say indicates that those "gospels" had nothing to do with the gospels we know today.

Another bitter pill for all proponents of the eyewitness hypothesis is the fact that the writers of the gospels made frequent mistakes about social norms, geography and even the law of the OT (Jesus at one point recites the law but not the original Hebrew but a mistranslated Greek version of the law).

[Historicity]

I was baptized and saved at an early age. I was curious.  :shrug

I believed and acted purely on faith. I didn't know or understand much,
I just believed. Something happened. I felt a weight that was lifted off
of me that it's hard to describe to you.

Thank you, Lilbman.

This is the kind of autobiographical entry I want to see.

When I first glanced at it I thought it would be one of the "wall of words" entries that people like Robert Hill give us, thinking if they spin and paraphrase old preachments long enough it will convert someone.  Personally I always zone out after the first one because they have no real substance.  I will go back and read your autobiography carefully.  That is interesting to me.

[Alzael]

I believe the worst thing would be eternal separation from Him.
Hell was never created for man. Man determines this.

Then what was hell created for? Keep in mind that according to the bible Satan and his followers don't end up banished there until the end times. So it likely wasn't created for him. What is it for then?

[Alzael]

I believe the worst thing would be eternal separation from Him.
Hell was never created for man. Man determines this.

Then what was hell created for? Keep in mind that according to the bible Satan and his followers don't end up banished there until the end times. So it likely wasn't created for him. What is it for then?

Yes it is. It is a fatal ending for their blatant rejection and rebellion of God.

Then why aren't they there? You have actually read the bible and know what's in it, right? So then why isn't Satan in hell?

[Petey]

I'm glad I didn't. When you truly start trusting in Jesus Christ with all you've got,
you'll see real quick, there is an enemy of God that will try and prevent you from
believing in Him.

You do not understand because you do not believe God exists, so you are not threat
to the adversary. The adversary doesn't want you to know the truth. When you obey
Jesus, you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. If you acknowledge your
sin and your need of a Savior (Jesus), Learn to love and truly forgive, you will know.

The adversary doesn't want you to know the truth that will set you free. The real Jesus.

This is what we mean by preaching.  There is nothing here of any substance whatsoever.  Just a lot of, "My opinion is true because I feel it is."

For the record, I was a "true Christian" for the first 20-ish years of my life.  I believed wholeheartedly, and felt that I had a personal relationship with Jesus.  You're correct in one thing...the truth will set you free.  However, the "truth" you have found is anything but.  I've never known freedom the likes of breaking free from the shackles of faith.  When you realize that your imaginary friends are just that, it really opens your eyes and allows you to embrace reality for what it is.

[Asmoday]

If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

So, do you have anything meaningful to say or is preaching all you can do when your arguments have been torn to shreds?

I'm still waiting for your answer. Your belief in God has the same foundation as a hypothetical belief in tooth faeries. No eyewitnesses, no evidence. Nothing.

The only reason you do not subject your own belief to the same scrutiny as any other ridiculous claim presented to you is because you were fed the Christian belief as a child.

[Dante]

What about me, what about my needs?

What about the Muslims, brother?

[Alzael]

That will not happen until later.

Then why create it at or near the beginning, when he only isn't going to use it for it's purpose until the end? If it was never intended for us why put us there in the first place? Why does god simply choose some people to go to hell regardless of whether they believe or not? Why does he arbitrarily decide to bring some to heaven regardless of their beliefs or actions?

[Petey]

...then it means life in general is pointless and has no meaning at all. I choose to believe that life has answers yet to be discovered.

Both sentiments are quite true at a global level, but religion gives no answers...only comfort.

Or as someone once wisely said..."Philosophy is questions that may never be answered.  Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

[Dante]

What about me, what about my needs?

What about the Muslims, brother?

Why don't you let go of your pride and humble yourself. Acknowledge God,
acknowledge His Son, acknowledge your sin and your need for Him.

God is willing, are you?

That's not an answer to my original question, is it? Why does god show himself to you, and not the billions of Muslims who've heard the good news? Are their hearts not open? Will they be condemned?

[Alzael]

There is a lot that all of us don't fully understand. One day we may or may not need to know.
I believe the worst judgment after all is eternal separation. God is life, to be separated from
God, means not to live.

Shouldn't you be concerned? After all your lack of understanding could very easily put you into eternal damnation? Shouldn't you know all of the things that the bible says you have to do to be saved? And if you don't understand, then what can you possibly hope to share with us? You don't know anything, you're just talking without purpose, typing words with no force or substance behind them. If you don't have knowledge of even the basics it's dishonest to pretend that anything you're saying is truth, and it's a waste of our time.

[shnozzola]

I gain nothing by telling you this. I'm being humble
and telling you the truth. Knowing that there will be
people who will mock me. Please don't focus your
attention on me but believe in the one whom God has
sent, Jesus.

I also gain nothing by telling you this, lilbman.  If, by believing in god and jesus, you have turned your life around, and your marriage is fine, your family is fine – good for you.  I wish you and your family well.  What I ask is that you also wish those you meet well, and do not judge them – teach your children that all people are the same and no one is better or worse than another – atheists, muslims, homosexuals, witches, volcano worshipers – all of us.  If you can do that humbly and sincerely, you have my respect and, while we disagree with each other’s beliefs, I will defend you and your family’s right to believe any way you want.
Deal?

[Alzael]

There is a lot that all of us don't fully understand. One day we may or may not need to know.
I believe the worst judgment after all is eternal separation. God is life, to be separated from
God, means not to live.

Shouldn't you be concerned? After all your lack of understanding could very easily put you into eternal damnation? Shouldn't you know all of the things that the bible says you have to do to be saved? And if you don't understand, then what can you possibly hope to share with us? You don't know anything, you're just talking without purpose, typing words with no force or substance behind them. If you don't have knowledge of even the basics it's dishonest to pretend that anything you're saying is truth, and it's a waste of our time.

If you had read your Bible then you might be familiar with this scripture.

And to know the love of Christ, which passeth "KNOWLEDGE", that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God



This is for that person who needs hope.

Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and even though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy,

Ephesians 3:19

It's a boring piece of low-brow clap-trap.
I prefer some of the more interesting things which god has to say.

"Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. ... But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation." -- Luke 6:20, 24
So if you're not poor, you're kind of screwed. Actually you are anyways since:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

You have no say over whether you're saved according to these lines and many others.

"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." -- Matthew 19:29, Mark 10:29-30, Luke 18:29-30

At the very least I hope that you've abandoned your family. Otherwise you'd better get to it or you're royally buggered.

But it's not like your god is a complete monster, I'm sure that there are all sorts of good things he has to say. For example:

"If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city." -- Deuteronomy 22:23-24

I suppose that if a woman gets raped by a man you kind of have to kill her too. She should have known better than to go along with it. I mean it goes without saying, right ladies?

"But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die. ... For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her." -- Deuteronomy 22:25-27

Take note ladies, if you're going to get raped, do it in the field. Otherwise you're clearly in the wrong.

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." -- Numbers 31:15-18

Nothing says god and divinity like mass-murdering men, women, and children and keeping the virgins around for the after-slaughter gang-bang party.

"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die." Deuteronomy 21:18-21

God does not screw around when it comes to child-rearing.

Did you still really want to quote bible verses? I doubt it will end well for you. Besides as we've already established you really know nothing about the bible or your own faith like just about every other theist, so I guess it doesn't matter.

[Alzael]

I hope that answers your question about what it takes to be saved.

He believed who He said He was. Acknowledged Him and His Kingdom.
Repentant of his sins. Asked Him to remember Him.

The bible lists about one hundred and sixty ways to be saved. Guess how many of them include belief? Please be my guest, just ballpark it.

[Dante]

Libman, I'm going to hate to see you banned before your beliefs get overturned by your own logic, I fear you will not make it through the next hour because of your inability to address questions without preaching. You are not open to discussion, your mind doesn't work that way. You're closed, unable to discern between reality and fantasy. You think you have the answer, even before you hear the question. I do hope you  enjoy your stay here, learn tons about yourself as well as atheists, and come away a more educated person.

Me? I'm mobile, and can't continue at this time.

[cheezisgoooood]

With all due respect,
 God permitted those laws through Moses because their hearts were hard. They do not nor
have ever superseded Gods laws. Those are laws of men permitted by God not Gods' law.


Jesus corrects this.

1. Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, strength and understanding.
    sums up the first four commandments
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
    sums up the next six

Man is incapable of fully keeping Gods law the way He views them.
example:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

Jesus gave a new commandment to His disciples.

Love each other as I have loved you.

Have you ever noticed the emphasis of love.

You should also notice that Jesus upheld Gods law fully.
So those under grace are not subject to penalty of the law.

I don't think you read the whole post, or know the context of some of the verses he used.

For instance, the verse about forsaking your own family to receive eternal life was spoken by JESUS himself.  No explanation of "Jesus saving us from following God's shitty laws" is going to resolve the issue.

Also,

Matthew 5:18
"
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

What do you think Jesus was referring to here?  Please provide supporting evidence.

[Alzael]

With all due respect,
 God permitted those laws through Moses because their hearts were hard. They do not nor
have ever superseded Gods laws. Those are laws of men permitted by God not Gods' law.


Jesus corrects this.

1. Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, strength and understanding.
    sums up the first four commandments
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
    sums up the next six

Man is incapable of fully keeping Gods law the way He views them.
example:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart

Jesus gave a new commandment to His disciples.

Love each other as I have loved you.

Have you ever noticed the emphasis of love.

You should also notice that Jesus upheld Gods law fully.
So those under grace are not subject to penalty of the law.

Firstly, even if you were right, it doesn't alter the fact that god permitted it.

Secondly you're not right since Jesus himself says that the old laws are ineffect. As for Jesus and love:

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." -- Luke 14:26

"He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

We may not be capable of being as perfect as god, bu twe have to be. "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." -- Matthew 5:48

What you fail to realize is that Jesus doesn't correct anything. He contradicts it. And himself. The bible is littered with contradictions of all sorts. You can't call it a correction unless he says what is being corrected, otherwise it's just your own mind making things up to suit your primitive beliefs. Which you clearly do a lot of.

All of them come down to this.

No, they don't. Only in your delusion do they do. If they all come down to this, then I invite you to show me. Otherwise you are once again, a liar. And not a very good one. But I'm guessing this means that you have no idea about what the bible says again, and are trying to dodge the question. Good luck with that.
Ugh, what a tiresome preacher you are.

[Emily]

With all due respect,
 God permitted those laws through Moses because their hearts were hard. They do not nor
have ever superseded Gods laws. Those are laws of men permitted by God not Gods' law.


Jesus corrects this.

1. Love the Lord your God with all of your heart, strength and understanding.
    sums up the first four commandments
2. Love your neighbor as yourself.
    sums up the next six

..one thing I struggle with is why did god wait so long to send his begotten son. Those laws were written something like 1500 years before Jesus come on the scene, even though according to some Jesus' coming was prophecized in the early chapters of Genesis, even before those laws were supposedly given to Moses.

So why would god wait so long to give the world Jesus and salvation through Jesus considering God himself know the deeds that mankind would do? God could've easily skipped the flooding of the world mass murder and just send salvation when he saw his creation turning "sinful"

And if god knew that everyone would turn sinful and disobey god's laws starting at Cain and Abel why not immediately send Jesus then? There are many passages in the OT that god could've sent Jesus such as

Genesis 6:6 (King James Version)
 6And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

What gives? Instead he waited thousands of years and millions of people are burning in "hell" right now because of this.

[ksm]

He gave me a job I didn't have to look for. The employer called me.

I can't go by this one.

The employer just called you because why? Jesus made him do it?

"Let me just call a random stranger and offer him a job."

[Emily]

Jesus is talking metaphorically.
He often taught by parables.

The problem with metaphors and parables is that no one really knows the real meaning. Why didn't Jesus just come out and say what he mean? Why pretty it up? It would've prevented so much confusion...  :shrug

One thing Jesus says is a metaphor, the next is literal... What gives. He made his own religion so confusing. Definitely not a good PR guy.

[Emily]

He gave me a job I didn't have to look for. The employer called me.

I can't go by this one.

The employer just called you because why? Jesus made him do it?

"Let me just call a random stranger and offer him a job."

hehe, someone pulled this one on me the other day. They didn't apply for the job and got called in for an interview. Turns out they posted their resume on hotjobs though, where thousands of HR people can view it... 

It's so convenient to see these kind of miracles preformed when there are more important things that god could be taking care of, such as the millions of children starving.