It's hard for atheists to understand God (split)

[lilbman]

It's hard for atheists to understand God. Some of you want to understand.
Some of you really do want to know God. How many of you have been sincere
with repentance from your heart? How many of you talked to and acted upon
what you can not see? Did you ever have faith to begin with? Has it ever occured
to you that God only chooses to reveal Himself to those whose hearts are sincere
towards the things His heart desires? For an atheist to believe in God, they want
undeniable proof that He exists first. Has an atheist ever thought that if God did
this, the experience maybe a little overwhelming for them? It's better to do things
Gods way because He understands more than we do. Pursuing God is part of a journey
that He rewards those who seek Him diligently. The moment that you realize God is real,
how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or
will you live to love? Maybe God really understands His own creation better than
atheist give Him credit for. MMMM?

[One Above All]

libman, look at what happens when I remove the preaching from your post:

Now look at what happens to YOU when I report it to the mods
Have a nice day

[velkyn]

It's hard for atheists to understand God. Some of you want to understand. Some of you really do want to know God. How many of you have been sincere with repentance from your heart?

Hate to disappoint you but many of us.  Like me for instance. I was a Christian and when losing my faith, I prayed for help retaining it.  I got nothing. For an omnipotent being, god certainly can't make itself known.

How many of you talked to and acted upon what you can not see?

How have you talked to and acted upon what you cannot see? You know, those fairies are very disappointed in you.

Did you ever have faith to begin with?

Yep.  Lost it.  See above. I'm sure you'll say it wasn't "real".

Has it ever occured to you that God only chooses to reveal Himself to those whose hearts are sincere
towards the things His heart desires?

wow, just like the Great Pumpkin.  so much for free will again.

For an atheist to believe in God, they want undeniable proof that He exists first.

Yep, so did Gideon and Thomas.

Has an atheist ever thought that if God did this, the experience maybe a little overwhelming for them?

So again we see a theist depower their god in saying it can't make itself not overwhelming.  No problem for God before, per the bible. Why the problem now?

It's better to do things Gods way because He understands more than we do.

Not per your bible. See Genesis 3.

Pursuing God is part of a journey that He rewards those who seek Him diligently

I have. He seems to be fond of hide and seek. 

The moment that you realize God is real, how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or will you live to love?

How do we realize God is real? Come on, how?  Each theist claism that this is so easy but every other religon says that "those" gods aren't real.  Surely you can coem up with some evidence.

Maybe God really understands His own creation better than atheist give Him credit for. MMMM?

Nah. Hard for an imaginary being to understand anything.  Maybe Vishnu understands his own creation better than Christians give him credit for.

And like Blaziken said, preaching isn't welcome here. IF you are actually interested in a discussion, come back when you've got some actual evidence for your nonsense.

[Operator_011]

Hi lilbman,


I've split-off this thread into its own topic as it was completely off-topic in the thread you posted it in.

Have you read our rules and etiquette guides before posting? If not, you really need to look over them before continuing to post. We expect all our members to abide by our rules and etiquette if they wish to post here.

You'll find them all here.. << Just follow the link.


Eleven.

[Nick]

Most of us here were Christians at one time.  I was Catholic and very Catholic.  Thought it was the "true" re;igion and could not understand why others did not see it.  I feel stupid even saying what I just said.

All gods are imaginary...have been from the beginning of human kind.  Once you accept that you can quit living in fear and love because you want to and not because you think you will get a reward from sky daddy.

[velkyn]

I believed in God for over 30 years. It wasn't until after 25 of those years that He really made Himself known to me. I could of just thrown in the towel but I didn't. I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed but never received an answer( at least I thought that) until the day He made it undeniable for me. I don't claim to be better than anyone here. I used to be like a lot of people in this forum. But just to let you know I receive what I asked for on my timing, I received it on His perfect timing.

Or you convinced yourself completely that this god was real.  Why does God take so much time to "really" convince you? 

And many of us have prayed and prayed.  We got nothing.  And of course, you claim to be better than people here.  God has supposedly done something special for *you*.  The rest of us evidently don't rate as much as you do.and since you've believed in God for so many years and still do, you don't seem overly much like any atheist here.  Where you an atheist before you beleived in God? If so, what changed your mind? 

Your last sentence makes no sense.  Did you receive what you asked for on your timing or on God's timing?  And what did you ask for?   

[pianodwarf]

I believed in God for over 30 years. It wasn't until after 25 of those years that He really made Himself known to me. I could of just thrown in the towel but I didn't. I prayed and prayed and prayed and prayed but never received an answer( at least I thought that) until the day He made it undeniable for me. I don't claim to be better than anyone here. I used to be like a lot of people in this forum. But just to let you know I receive what I asked for on my timing, I received it on His perfect timing.

I notice you don't describe how, exactly, biblegod made himself known to you.  Would you care to elaborate?  The reason I ask is, most of the atheists here used to be Christians.  For most them, the unpleasant process of losing their faith involved, among other things, praying for some kind of a sign from him and not getting one.  They didn't want to lose their faith, but as logic and reason began to sink in and biblegod didn't answer their cries for help, they were left becoming atheists.  I'd be curious to know what sign you got -- regardless of whose schedule it was on -- that convinced you.

[Alzael]

It's hard for theists to understand God.

Fixed that for you. Theists don't even begin to understand god, otherwise they could actually answer basic questions about him and his book instead of dodging, evading, and making up nonsensical justifications.

[velkyn]

I' not a preacher or an evangelist. I just thought that some of you would like to know that patience and persistence is rewarding.

I'm 44, dude.  How long do I have to wait?  and you are a preacher and an evangelist since your posts are nothing but "beleive me, it's true."  preachers and evangelists are just like other Christians but they figured out how to get paid for it by their slower fellows.

[frofrodajimmyboy]

I' not a preacher or an evangelist. I just thought that some of you would like to
know that patience and persistence is rewarding.

What you're doing here is exactly what we refer to when we say "preaching".  You're not here to have a discussion, you're here to say, "My view is the way it is," and leave it at that.  You show no intent of wanting to understand or even open up to the possibility of an opposing view.  

[jynnan tonnix]

Christians often claim that God doesn't give us any more trials than we can handle. They also claim that he wants nothing more than for everyone to turn to him (thus be saved).

If this is the case, then why does he remain silent for so long that many people DO "throw in the towel" and never find him? Surely he must realize what type of evidence will be meaningful, or how long a specific person will be able to hold out before giving up.

[Agga]

I' not a preacher or an evangelist. I just thought that some of you would like to
know that patience and persistence is rewarding.

To be fair, you dropped your post into my thread, and spoke nothing of the issue that it was discussing.

Your post is preaching, since you're telling us about your religion in your very first post, and it had nothing to do with my topic

Most of us here were christians for a long time.  What you said sounds pretty patronising, to be honest.

[Aaron123]

lilbman, let me ask you a couple of questions.

1) Does god love everyone?

2) Does god wants to prevent us from going to hell?

If the answer to both are yes, then god should just present himself to us so we would no longer doubt his existence, and start beliving.  Yet, apparently, he won't do this until we woo-woo ourself. That's how all gods operate, and yours is no different.

[Str82Hell]

It's hard for atheists to understand God. Some of you want to understand.
Some of you really do want to know God. How many of you have been sincere
with repentance from your heart? How many of you talked to and acted upon
what you can not see? Did you ever have faith to begin with? Has it ever occured
to you that God only chooses to reveal Himself to those whose hearts are sincere
towards the things His heart desires? For an atheist to believe in God, they want
undeniable proof that He exists first. Has an atheist ever thought that if God did
this, the experience maybe a little overwhelming for them? It's better to do things
Gods way because He understands more than we do. Pursuing God is part of a journey
that He rewards those who seek Him diligently. The moment that you realize God is real,
how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or
will you live to love? Maybe God really understands His own creation better than
atheist give Him credit for. MMMM?

One day I used to see some validity in likewise statements. I thought that they were arguable, that one could reason and discuss with a person like you. What I see now is someone who's completely brainwashed. Someone who is repeating the schizophrenic claims which were stamped in his brain. The tone of your post reveals this. It's monotonous, there's no life, no energy, no identity of ones self in it. Your message will soon be forgotten, and over a longer period of time it will disappear in the nothingness of this vast universe, only affected by time, which is part of it.
It's a little sad to see how people like you can base their existence on this, maybe it's because you don't have a choice. I don't know. You remind me a little of Fallout's Children of the Cathedral. Brain dead, and happy to spread a message, unknowing of how harmful it is.

Let it go.

[pianodwarf]

There were several occassions in a short period of time that God got my attention.  I was so mad one day that I literally was screaming and yelling at Him. I couldn't see Him but I know He heard me. I want people to know that I was so frustrated I didn't care anymore. It was like I lost all hope.

That doesn't even come remotely close to answering my question.  How, specifically, did biblegod reveal himself to you?  I.e., did you see his face in a pizza or something?  (I'm not being snide, some people really do convert over such things.)

If you ever pray, keep it between you and God, that way you know when He answers, you haven't told anyone else.

That is actually very good advice.  It's the same way that wise children approach the Santa Claus question.  They don't tell anyone except the Santa at the shopping mall what's on their list.  When nothing on the list shows up, they know Santa isn't real.

[Operator_B12]

Lilbman,

I have fixed the quotes in your post here.  You seem to be having trouble with the quoting system, so I suggest you check out the forum's Quoting FAQ.  The forum even has a testing area here where you can practice if you wish to.

[Dante]

He stepped in and made changes accordingly.

You mean he affected your free will??? Blasphemer!

[Alzael]

I believe the worst thing would be eternal separation from Him.
Hell was never created for man. Man determines this.

Then what was hell created for? Keep in mind that according to the bible Satan and his followers don't end up banished there until the end times. So it likely wasn't created for him. What is it for then?

[Historicity]

It's hard for atheists to understand the Gods. Some of you want to understand. Some of you really do want to know the Gods. How many of you have been sincere with repentance from your heart? How many of you talked to and acted upon what you can not see? Did you ever have faith to begin with? Has it ever occurred to you that the Gods only choose to reveal Themselves to those whose hearts are sincere towards the things Their hearts desire? For an atheist to believe in the Gods, they want undeniable proof that They exist first. Has an atheist ever thought that if the Gods did this, the experience may be a little overwhelming for them? It's better to do things the Gods' way because They understand more than we do. Pursuing the Gods is part of a journey that They rewards those who seek Them diligently. The moment that you realize the Gods are real, how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or will you live to love? Maybe the Gods really understand Their own creation better than atheists give Them credit for. MMMM?

Certainly you would not want to give up the worship of the Gods, the inspirers of the arts, crafts, literature and civilization in order to worship a zombie.

  To Anacreon in Heaven
  Where he sat in full glee
  A few sons of harmony
  Sent a petition
  That he their inspirer
  And patron would be
  When the answer then came
  From the jolly old Grecian,
  "Voice, fiddle and flute,
  "No longer be mute.
  "I'll lend ye my name
  "And inspire ye to boot.
  "And besides I'll instruct ye
  "Like me to entwine
  "The Myrtle of Venus
  "With Bacchus's vine."
  ---------------------(original version of the "The Star Spangled Banner")





Read all of that tract at:  http://foo.ca/wp/chick-tract-satire/hellenic-chick/

[jynnan tonnix]

Christians often claim that God doesn't give us any more trials than we can handle. They also claim that he wants nothing more than for everyone to turn to him (thus be saved).

If this is the case, then why does he remain silent for so long that many people DO "throw in the towel" and never find him? Surely he must realize what type of evidence will be meaningful, or how long a specific person will be able to hold out before giving up.

I asked that question myself. When I finally gave in and stopped trying on my own efforts,
He stepped in and made changes accordingly.

You're missing the point, though. So it happened to you. Fine. But what of those people who get to the point of giving up before God steps in with whatever evidence will be meaningful to them? Did he just not care about their salvation?

He must have known that they had reached the point of giving up, after all. We are not talking about people who were never believers, but those who prayed sincerely and even desperately for him to restore their faith. There are more people like that out there than you might think.

And the "free will" argument doesn't hold water either, as there are also plenty of people out there who would claim that god gave them a smack between the eyes which totally got their attention when they were not even looking for him. Which means either that god is totally arbitrary in who he decides to save, or that all these feelings are something that the individual's own brain generates with no supernatural entity involved.

The latter makes a whole lot more sense, and if the former should be true, then this sort of god doesn't sound like one who is deserving of worship.

[Dante]

I wanted to post because I can relate with people here.
Because I've experienced first hand of what it feels like when you feel like no one is on the
other end of the line.

No, no you cant. You felt abandoned perhaps, yet you always had faith that he was real, correct? And you prayed, and prayed, and prayed some more, all the while awaiting a reply. SHOCKER! You got one. Through indoctrination and self-delusion, you found what you were seeking.

We are pretty sure that, not only is there no one on the other end of the line, there is NO LINE to begin with.

[pianodwarf]

He must have known that they had reached the point of giving up, after all. We are not talking about people who were never believers, but those who prayed sincerely and even desperately for him to restore their faith. There are more people like that out there than you might think.

I'm one of the few who never had to go thru this, by the way.  I was not raised in any faith... I did experiment briefly with different religions and spiritual-type beliefs for a few years in my late teens and early twenties, but I never really believed any of it.  In this, I consider myself very fortunate.  Being a solid Christian and losing your faith sounds incredibly unpleasant and distressing.  I can't imagine what it must be like to have your entire worldview so fundamentally altered to the point where almost everything you ever thought was true about the nature of reality comes collapsing down upon you.  My heart really goes out to those who have had to endure it.

[Seppuku]

I don't think you actually answered Piano Dwarf's question. He asked what sign you got and you just told us that you knew God was listening when you were frustrated...this offer no indication of what signs you got that made you to believe.


However, do you not think your posting here is: 1) a little patronising and 2) a little arrogant.

Allow me to explain:

1) Patronising

You make so many assumptions about atheists and talk us down on each of those assumptions.

2) Arrogant

You appear to be standing from a position of superiority. You have the answer, you've come to tell us something we've not heard before and that you're able to share special knowledge with atheists.


I don't meant to come off standoffish. But don't you think atheists get fed up of being spoken down to by members of the religious community?

It's not as simple as, "we've not found God", even people who have 'found God' come to this side, for some they feel they've been living in a world of delusion in believing in God. Not every atheist used to be religious. Though on a website like this, it attracts a lot of ex-religious atheists. I'm not sure I count because I stopped believing when I stopped believe in Santa Claus (that's not a dig, but it was around that age). I didn't stop believing because I never 'found' anything. I stopped believing because I started reasoning and came to think that belief in God was incredibly stupid. Despite being at a young age, I knew bad things happened in the world and there was no way a good God would allow for such to happen. But by no means assume that as my only reason for being an atheist, but it was the kind of thing that had me asking questions.

Of course, you might then say, "it's the questioning that did it" and I hope that won't be your argument, because as soon as you drop all questioning and blindly believe something you can end up working towards deluding yourself. Many cults rely on that exact same mentality and it can make the mind incredibly open to suggestion. Religions even have the same power, I see the indoctrination methods some religious institutions use and it genuinely saddens me. The kids aren't experiencing Jesus, they think they're experiencing Him because they fear the consequences. This is on one basis where delusion works. Speak to any of them and I'm sure they'll tell you they've experienced God and they'll genuinely believe it.

But I'm not going to make any assumptions about your belief or how you arrived at your conclusions, but I think there's stuff there worth thinking about if you're going to engage us (as opposed to preach).

Thank you

[velkyn]

I had always believed in God, but you would of never thought that by the way I was living.

so belief makes no difference.  

No really, I'm not, matter of fact I probably would be considered worse. I never really went to church. I was saved and baptized at a young age. I did this out of faith. It wasn't until I messed my life up so bad I new that I needed help. I refused to give up.

 Ah, the false humility of a Christian.  Did you go to church or not? You can't "not really" go to church like you can't be kinda sterile.  And we can see that being baptized and saved make no difference either evidently.  We see many Christians like you. Claiming to be ever-so bad and then getting God in an appropriately dramatic moment.  and let me guess, after messing up your life, you decided to give everything over to god so you could be "forgiven" and just decide your messing up wasn't your responsiblity anymore.  I'm goign to guess you're in your mid-life years. A lot of Christians really get religion when their mortality becomes obvious to them.  

There were several occassions in a short period of time that God got my attention. I was so mad one day that I literally was screaming and yelling at Him. I couldn't see Him but I know He heard me. I want people to know that I was so frustrated I didn't care anymore. It was like I lost all hope. If you ever pray, keep it between you and God, that way you know when He answers, you haven't told anyone else.

You' think you know he heard you.  And I can understand that last bit. It's handy when you don't get an answer to your prayer.  Then you can just ignore it and go on your way.  

Yes I believe the worst thing would be eternal separation from Him. Hell was never created for man. Man determines this.

funny how this doesn't quite work if God is omniscient or if you actually think the bible has any validity whatsoever.
 
oh yes, libman, answer my question. How long do I have to wait?  Answering

"I'm not doing this for any personal gain, plus I don't believe every preacher and evangelist you see is of God"

is just more OneTrueChristian^tm crap.  you all think that you and those who agree with you are the only TrueChristians^tm.  Until I can see some evidence, it's all nonsense.

[Agga]

It's ok, lilbman.


The posts will stay here.  You can answer them one at a time, in your own time.

No need to feel pressurised to keep up as you have a lot of posts to answer. 

 

[blue]

I will try and answer all your questions accordingly.

You guys create some long posts and reply quickly.

Give me a little bit to respond. I'll be back in a few minutes.

Kudos for asking for some time on your answers.

[pianodwarf]

It's ok, lilbman.


The posts will stay here.  You can answer them one at a time, in your own time.

No need to feel pressurised to keep up as you have a lot of posts to answer.

Yeah.  This is why I don't participate in Christian discussion boards.  It's not that I don't think I could hold my own against them, it's that I know I just wouldn't be able to keep up with all the replies.  That's happened to me a few times before in other venues, and it's surprising just how disorienting it is with regard to the rest of your day.

[Asmoday]

Lilbman, looking at your posts in this thread and all the "answers" you have given to questions, I don't think you understand the basis of the problem.

You tell us to pray and repeat the mantra "God is real" and pray and repeat the mantra "God is real" and pray and repeat the mantra "God is real" and pray and repeat the mantra "God is real" and then, when we're done with that we should pray and repeat the mantra some more, till God God decides "yeah, I think now I can let him know I'm there."

But the that's what all believers of every religion on earth are saying!

And strangely it works for all of them.
If Jews pray hard enough, they "know" Yahweh is real.
If Muslims pray hard enough, they "know" Allah is real.
If Hindus pray hard enough, they "know" Vishnu is real.
If Scientologists pray hard enough, they "know" Xenu is real.
etc. etc.

Believers want their god to be real convince themselves by repeating it over and over again.


Atheists neither want god(s) to be real nor do we do not want god(s) to be real. We have looked at what is there (in your case that would be the bible) and we do not believe in it. You can not make yourself believe in something that your brain tells you is nonsense.

If you want to test it, I want you to believe and have faith in the tooth faerie. And I mean the belief into actual little faeries with wings on their backs who fly around at night and collect teeth that children put under her pillows.

[screwtape]

It's hard for atheists to understand God. Some of you want to understand.
Some of you really do want to know God. How many of you have been sincere
with repentance from your heart? How many of you talked to and acted upon
what you can not see? Did you ever have faith to begin with?

yes to all.

Has it ever occured to you that God only chooses to reveal Himself to those whose hearts are sincere
towards the things His heart desires?

So it was my fault for not "trying" hard enough?

For an atheist to believe in God, they want undeniable proof that He exists first.

You are making assumptions.  Maybe you should let us speak for ourselves.

Pursuing God is part of a journey that He rewards those who seek Him diligently.

Or maybe it is our own imaginations leading us on a wild goose chase that leads no where.

The moment that you realize God is real,how will that change you? Will that change the way you live? Will you live in fear or will you live to love? Maybe God really understands His own creation better than atheist give Him credit for. MMMM?

I know god exists, but its existence is limited to the minds and imaginations of people.  It is not an actual being.  It is imaginary.