Author Topic: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?  (Read 16244 times)

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Offline Alzael

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tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2010, 12:12:50 AM »
^^^^ That's right, thrust the knife in deeper.
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Offline Anfauglir

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tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2010, 05:51:59 AM »
Curious, what kind of evidence, if any, would make you re-think your atheism?

Tell me how to make contact with your god.  I'll do it.  If I do what you said, and I make contact with your god, I will believe in it.

Of course, this carries a couple of presumptions:
1) Your god actually wants to be in contact with me.
2) Despite (1), your god requires that it is I that needs to establish contact.

Probably more presumptions I've made, but they are key.  I'll wait now for you to tell me exactly what I need to do.

Oh, one more caveat - "what I need to do" needs to be something I am also capable of doing. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Inactive_X

Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2010, 08:06:42 AM »
I've addressed your question many times on these forums. I've readily admitted that I'm closed. I've done the research, and I'm convinced that Jesus is Lord and Savior. He is the bridegroom, and the Church is His bride.

Then, tbright, what is your purpose here?  If it is just to proselytize, that is not allowed on the forum.  You are expected to participate in a discussion, not simply make claims with no intention of supporting them or considering/addressing the points of others.  Consider this a friendly warning.

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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2010, 08:16:22 AM »
Atheism doesn't contend any of those "arguments".  The only thing that atheism contends is a lack of belief in god(s).  Some or most scientists may support some or all of those positions, and the evidence for those positions may be used in support of the atheistic position, but none of them is required by or defines atheism.  An atheist is free to accept, reject, or completely ignore any of those arguments, while still remaining 100% atheist.

Curious, what kind of evidence, if any, would make you re-think your atheism?


The rapture.


Quote
Quote from: tbright on 8 hours  ago
Quote from: xphobe on 8 hours  ago
Rather than a mind game, think of it as a mind-experiment.  Please tell us what evidence would make you re-think your theism.  Humor me.  I'm quite serious.


I've addressed your question many times on these forums. I've readily admitted that I'm closed. I've done the research, and I'm convinced that Jesus is Lord and Savior. He is the bridegroom, and the Church is His bride.


I remember as a small boy first hearing about this event and that it could happen at any moment !

I spent the next 40 yrs on the edge of my seat waiting for the bridegroom to come and take a billion of us away, only to be disappointed in the end and finally give up on it. The generation of the nation of Israel is come and gone. Jesus H. is extremely late in his supposed promise to the church.

Seeing the thief in the night fulfill his promise would make me rethink my atheist position.

Perhaps you're not a rapture guy now though ? It wouldn't surprise me, as untold millions have dropped that idea and morphed their SPAG into something that quite nicely suits the times and their emotions.

If you are a rapture guy, then you gotta be pissed about the huge delay ?  
 

« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:18:47 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2010, 08:34:24 AM »
I luv it! The rapture! Ha, suddenly only critical thinking, rational people are left on the planet. What a joyous surprise that'd be!

Not Tbright, the bible is not logically true, not rationally true, not historically true, not scientifically true, is internally and externally inconsistent, and you wonder what evidence the atheist would need to reconsider? How about a different God and a different Holy book?

ADDED: See? I am open to reconsidering? I can't answer for other atheists, since no 2 are alike (except that they don't believe in a god).
« Last Edit: October 28, 2010, 08:50:43 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Petey

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2010, 08:51:40 AM »
Thanks for the laughs, TB.  Those sites provide plenty of opinions, very few facts, and absolutely zero evidence of the type people have been asking for.  But at least they were entertaining.  :D

Perhaps I should have included one more descriptor in my evidence request: peer reviewed.  And no, agreement amongst a handful of equally biased people does not count.  How about something from...oh, I don't know...a scientific journal?  Even something from a science or history textbook would be a start.

Oh, and I'm not asking for evidence that bits and pieces of the bible may or may not be correct, which is what most of those sites try to do.  I'm asking for evidence that god(any) exists.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2010, 09:57:58 AM »
I'll keep it brief. What kind of evidence?

Actual evidence.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online relativetruth

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2010, 10:20:32 AM »
I would accept a prophecy of some supernatural event which will occur in the next few weeks and which three weeks later actually occurs.

How is it that all the xtian prophecies occured over 2000 years ago?
Why is God not giving any humans scoop news stories anymore?
 
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Alzael

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #37 on: October 28, 2010, 11:08:01 AM »
I still put forth that some degree of consistency would be the best starting point for proving religion. The main thing that makes religion so absolutely useless is that it means different things to everyone and everyone comes to different conclusions which makes it useless in telling us anything. If they were all on the same page, it might still not be proven but at least it might be able to serve some practical purpose.
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Offline Dante

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #38 on: October 28, 2010, 11:13:40 AM »
I still put forth that some degree of consistency would be the best starting point for proving religion. The main thing that makes religion so absolutely useless is that it means different things to everyone and everyone comes to different conclusions which makes it useless in telling us anything. If they were all on the same page, it might still not be proven but at least it might be able to serve some practical purpose.

I can agree with those sentiments.

It's the SPAG, the believer making everything a "personal god", that goes a long way to disproving an actual omniscient diety. It's all in their mind, and yet somehow, they think that's evidence.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Don_Quixote

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #39 on: October 28, 2010, 02:04:08 PM »
Because they do have evidence of an existing god within their minds tho. An imaginary being doesn't need empirical evidence. It just comes to "I know because I feel it". Could always reply "I feel deep inside my heart Harry Potter has faith in me".

Offline Asmoday

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #40 on: October 28, 2010, 02:41:29 PM »
I must say this always amazes me.

When speaking with Christians or reading what they write about atheists you will nearly always be accused of being close minded or that you raise the bar too high so that it is impossible for them to show "proof for God."

Yet when you return the question to them and ask them if they are willing to discuss their belief with an open mind and what would convince them that their belief is wrong, most of the time you will hear that absolutely nothing will convince them and that they are not even willing to look at their belief from an objective point of view.

And we are considered close minded...  &)
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Offline Grimm

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #41 on: October 28, 2010, 02:50:35 PM »
Do you have evidence, tbright?

Here's a start.

Links:

http://www.rationalchristianity.net/historical_evid.html
Much of the archeaological evidence on this site relates to the Ebla Tablets (among other things), and it is a testament to the usual brand of Theistic scholarship that these tablets have been, over the last two decades, almost throughly debunked as having any relationship to biblical historicity.  A good summary is on wikipedia:

"The application of the Ebla texts to specific places or people in the Bible occasioned controversy, focused on whether the tablets made references to, and thus confirmed, the existence of Abraham, David and Sodom and Gomorrah among other Biblical references.[5] The sensationalist claims were coupled with delays in the publication of the complete texts, and it soon became an unprecedented academic crisis.[2] The political context of the modern Arab–Israeli conflict also added fire to the debate, turning it into a debate about the "proof" for Zionist claims to Palestine.[5] Among the most notable claims were that the attested presence of "y?" in Eblaite names was a supposed form of Yahweh;[11] the election of local kings, claimed to be uniquely reminiscent of practices in early Israel; – and a mythological introduction to a hymn to the creator deity at Ebla, said to be akin to the account of creation in Genesis.[2] However, much of the initial media excitement about supposed Eblaite connections with the Bible, based on preliminary guesses and speculations by Pettinato and others, is now widely deplored as generated by "exceptional and unsubstantiated claims" and "great amounts of disinformation that leaked to the public".[12] The present consensus is that Ebla's role in biblical archaeology, strictly speaking, is minimal.[2]"

Unfortunately, Theists almost never reevaluate evidence.  While the archaeological community has debunked biblical historicity, and moved on to the real relevance of the find, theists like yourself point to articles from '95 and say they're valid.  

I didn't bother going much deeper after seeing this particular bit of nonsense.  If this bit of bad scholarship is being waved as 'good', why should I trust the rest of the data?

Quote

http://www.allaboutcreation.org/evidence-for-creationism-faq.htm

This is the same tired series of creationist weaslings that have been thoroughly smashed a dozen times.  Nonsense like this:

"There is much evidence against biological macroevolution. Some of Darwin’s evidence used to support evolution is now refuted because of more modern scientific evidence. One fact is that body parts or entities could not have evolved gradually. Michael Behe discovered that cells were irreducibly complex. They needed every single chemical and part to function. Consequently, they could not have gradually evolved. Another evidence was the complete lack of transitional forms in the fossil record. "

is not convincing.  Behe has been thoroughly abused by the rest of the scientific community, and Irreducible Complexity has yet to show a single thing that is truly irreducibly complex.. or even a single piece of compelling research that would offer any sort of useful invalidation of evolution.  On the other hand, evolutionary biology has given you (among thousands of other things, and just to name one real bit of tangible utility).. oh, a dozen new antibiotics in the last twenty years.

Why should I listen to your bankrupt, thoroughly discredited science over that which is producing usable research?  Where is your comparable set of data, utility, or even decent theory?

Quote
http://forums.pcper.com/showthread.php?t=288731&highlight=evolution

.... a PC hardware forum?  Seriously?  This is what you call 'evidence'?  Did you Poe out on us, Tbright, and I just didn't notice?

Quote
http://www.equip.org/articles/biblical-archaeology-factual-evidence-to-support-the-historicity-of-the-bible

Az did a good job on this one, but let's emphasize just the first point:  if five different cultures each have a flood story, each with different data, and each with continuations of their own culture following the story, wouldn't this imply that not a single one of them experienced an event where they had a single pair of human beings left alive?  After all - why weren't they all named Noah?  Why did the Greeks persist in polytheism?

Could it be, that, perhaps, it's a shared regional mythology - sort of like Johnny Appleseed or Babe the Blue Ox here in the US?

Hmm!

Quote
http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

... and not a single piece of extrabiblical evidence is presented.  So I should also believe that Gandalf returned from the dead, became Gandalf the White, and was instrumental in saving all of mankind from Sauron?

There is precisely the same evidence for both!

Quote
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1269165/Noahs-Ark-remains-discovered-mountain-Turkey.html

Do you actually read these articles?  From this one:

"But Mike Pitt, a British archaeologist, said the evangelical explorers had yet to produce compelling evidence.
He added: 'If there had been a flood capable of lifting a huge ship 4km up the side of a mountain 4,800 years ago, I think there would be substantial geological evidence for this flood around the world. And there isn't.'

Nicholas Purcell, a lecturer in ancient history at Oxford University, said the claims were the 'usual nonsense'. He added: 'If floodwaters covered Eurasia 12,000ft deep in 2,800BC, how did the complex societies of Egypt and Mesopotamia, already many centuries old, keep right on regardless?'"

Quote
http://evidenceforchristianity.blogspot.com/2009/01/8-really-good-reasons-why-christianity.html

Every single one of these notions that you see has been thoroughly addressed in another medium.  I encourage you to read something other than apologetic literature - I certainly cannot debunk several thousand words of so-called proof that you've offered in this link alone by a forum post.  I can, however, say that John Loftus's book Debunking Christianity might be a good start for you.


Quote
http://prophecyvoice.com/biblical_archaeology/intro_discoveries.htm

The problem with this and other statements of proof like it can be summed up with this idea:

One of my favorite authors is Jim Butcher, who writes a supernatural detective series known as "The Dresden Files".  He writes detailed descriptions of places, distances, and locations around the city of Chicago - they're all consistent, even down to the name of the T.Rex at the natural history museum ("Sue").  Should I then assume Harry Dresden is a real person doing real magic?


TBright -

You do realize that you were the reason that I joined this forum in the first place, right?  When I was still questioning whether I'd become an atheist, when I was hanging on to the last tatters of my commitment (though my faith had been damaged long ago), I saw your debate here and thought I'd jump in, and try to ask you some of the hard questions that had been plaguing me.  You see, I figured that since you were fairly literate, fairly accomodating (or so it seemed to me at the time) and basically holding your own in the debate, you'd be able to help answer those.. well.. questions.

Instead, you ran off.  Now that you've returned, I've honestly hoped for a reengagement.  I've hoped that perhaps you've come up with answers - I know I've learned a great deal, and read a lot more.  I've even been to a local bible study where the participants know I'm an atheist, and we all get along well (and the debates are lively!).  Since I last conversed with you here, I've read perhaps.. oh.  Let's see... twenty or so books on the subject, and countless webpages - from BOTH sides of the apologetic fence, not to mention discussions here.

Are the links above really the best you've got?  Is this the apologetic I've been waiting for for over a year?  Is this the wisdom you had to offer when you were here the first time?

Really?
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2010, 02:50:52 PM »
He is the bridegroom, and the Church is His bride.

I have heard that trotted out many times. Can you explain what that means?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline William

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2010, 03:18:15 PM »
I would not require much evidence but it would have to be bloody good evidence that explains a lot of stuff in one go.
The problem I see is that theism has dug itself an enormous hole - so much confusion and so little agreement between all the various brands of theism. 

The evidence to convince me that God exists would need to be "unifying" across a vast array of issues  ...  a few examples:
  • Why God is such a crap communicator that we have debatable material in His instruction booklet for us  :shrug
  • Why Eve was an afterthought  :shrug
  • Why God couldn't choose the right people first up  :shrug
  • Why God's legal team didn't get the first covenant right  :shrug
  • Why God is limited to just one son and Jesus didn't turn up in China, or Brazil, or Australia, or Mozambique, or ... or all those places simultaneously  :shrug
  • Why there is so much random inexplicable suffering  :shrug
  • Why God does not heal amputees  :shrug
  • Why God lets people claim dental miracles without being zapped with lightning because they are 'lying for Jesus'  :shrug
  • Why there is no proper description of heaven (something like a travel brochure with pics would be nice) or hell  :shrug
  • Why science needs to be such hard work  :shrug
  • Why the bears killed 42 children for teasing the bald guy  :shrug
  • Why the Holy Spirit makes creationists think humans and dinosaurs coexisted  :shrug
  • Why churches catch fire, collapse etc  :shrug
  • Why animals have no souls  :shrug
  • How many human souls God actually needs to solve His boredom problem in heaven  :shrug
Git mit uns

Offline screwtape

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2010, 03:27:04 PM »
Grimm,

excellent post, overall (as usual).  But this part is some heavy, heavy stuff:

TBright -

You do realize that you were the reason that I joined this forum in the first place, right?  When I was still questioning whether I'd become an atheist, when I was hanging on to the last tatters of my commitment (though my faith had been damaged long ago), I saw your debate here and thought I'd jump in, and try to ask you some of the hard questions that had been plaguing me.  You see, I figured that since you were fairly literate, fairly accomodating (or so it seemed to me at the time) and basically holding your own in the debate, you'd be able to help answer those.. well.. questions.

Instead, you ran off.  Now that you've returned, I've honestly hoped for a reengagement.  I've hoped that perhaps you've come up with answers - I know I've learned a great deal, and read a lot more.  I've even been to a local bible study where the participants know I'm an atheist, and we all get along well (and the debates are lively!).  Since I last conversed with you here, I've read perhaps.. oh.  Let's see... twenty or so books on the subject, and countless webpages - from BOTH sides of the apologetic fence, not to mention discussions here.

Are the links above really the best you've got?  Is this the apologetic I've been waiting for for over a year?  Is this the wisdom you had to offer when you were here the first time?

Really?


I cannot imagine more of a punch in the gut than this, in the context of this forum.


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Offline Asmoday

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #45 on: October 28, 2010, 03:27:45 PM »
Grimm, that was an excellent post.
I had a look at the links too, but could not get myself to write something about all of it. It was just too much concentrated stupid stuff and and too many lies.

Sir, for your hard work and patience to read through all of those links without succumbing to the urge of repeatedly slamming your head on your keyboard you are hereby rewarded with a coupon for one free internet and a virtual cookie. Enjoy.  ;D
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Offline abecedarian

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #46 on: October 28, 2010, 03:28:58 PM »
I have to admit to not having read too much f this thread but for myself, Im sure as heck never anywhere near reconsidering......... I do however have a bachelors degree into this kind of researeh.............. xxx
AGNOTOLOGY: "The study of deliberately created ignorance-such as the falsehoods about evolution that are created by creationists".

Offline Grimm

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #47 on: October 28, 2010, 03:35:04 PM »
Grimm, that was an excellent post.
I had a look at the links too, but could not get myself to write something about all of it. It was just too much concentrated stupid stuff and and too many lies.

My braincells suffered so yours didn't have to!

:)

Quote
Sir, for your hard work and patience to read through all of those links without succumbing to the urge of repeatedly slamming your head on your keyboard you are hereby rewarded with a coupon for one free internet and a virtual cookie. Enjoy.  ;D

YAY!  COOKIE!

*cough*  I seem to have regressed to a preliterate stage.  But.  Man.  COOKIES!
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Offline abecedarian

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #48 on: October 28, 2010, 03:36:54 PM »
Ive just come through 8 weeks of very little communication - worrying why others seem to feel an imperative to hurry......................
AGNOTOLOGY: "The study of deliberately created ignorance-such as the falsehoods about evolution that are created by creationists".

Offline abecedarian

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #49 on: October 28, 2010, 03:39:21 PM »
Phew...... this is gonna take me hours - its  so good to be home - thanks people................ I may just need a sleep of course.........
AGNOTOLOGY: "The study of deliberately created ignorance-such as the falsehoods about evolution that are created by creationists".

Offline Alzael

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #50 on: October 28, 2010, 03:44:27 PM »
Grimm, I agree with Asmoday and Screwtape. I'm amazed you were able to wade through that stuff long enough to make those comments without making sacrifices to the Dark Lord for a merciful end to humanity.

Anothing thing that I notice about those sites is that none of them are examples of actual scholarship. I mean even by christian standards. Most of them are just something someone posted to their blog. Tbright didn't offer anything by any respected scientist or historian, he didn't even offer anything written by a christian scientist, or a professional (if you can use that term without going to hell for lying) theologian or biblical scholar. Not that it would have likely been any better if it came from a professional biblical scholar, but at least it would have had more validity than some random knob on a PC hardware forum.

On a side note I checked the "About Us" section for the Christian Research Institute that he linked to for his fifth "Proof". This is what they had to say about themselves.

"The Christian Research Institute exists to provide Christians worldwide with carefully researched information and well-reasoned answers that encourage them in their faith and equip them to intelligently represent it to people influenced by ideas and teachings that assault or undermine orthodox, biblical Christianity."
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Offline Grimm

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2010, 03:58:05 PM »
Grimm,

excellent post, overall (as usual).  But this part is some heavy, heavy stuff:

<snip'd!>

I cannot imagine more of a punch in the gut than this, in the context of this forum.

I'm not exaggerating, either.  Back at like, post 19 of mine, I wanted nothing more than to just talk to TBright at some length, to really dig into these problems and find some kind of answer.  I don't mean for it to be vicious, but it's damned true.

When I saw his name again on the forums, I got actually quite excited.  Perhaps it's nostalgia - I'm firm in my atheism these days (or as firm as an atheist ever is), but when I was newly-admitting to it, when I was finally coming to terms with the label, TBright represented the possibility that I was wrong, that maybe someone would have answers to the burning questions, and maybe I'd find a reason to recapture faith.

Atheism is fulfilling, but it's not comforting.  The world of rationality isn't bleak, but it's filled with responsibility and necessity in a way that comfortable faith is not.

It shocked me, then, just how little there was, how any mere scratch at the evidence caused the believer to flee.  Is faith so very fragile?  Is counterevidence so very bad?  I've come to the conclusion that it really is, that faithful folks view questions as dangerous, as an attack.  Perhaps it's just the mindset of the believer, or the necessity of intellectual paucity in apologetics.  Perhaps it's just the way the religious establishment discourages investigation... I don't know.  

I do think it's the root of why atheism is feared; we are an entire group of people who have dared to question fundamental assumptions and to dig into the evidence.  We believe in something, certainly - we believe that rationality is a necessity, that faith is too important to be left to good feelings and happy thoughts.  People don't like having core assumptions questioned.  Most of 'em don't even like the idea that they can be questioned.  It's easy.. it's safe not to.   I once thought, perhaps bitterly, that it was because the vast majority of people weren't willing to grow up, but I have come to think that the doctrine we inherit as children shapes us far more than we are willing to admit, and in odd ways.  We want to belong, we want to be part of something grander than ourselves, and faith offers us that in droves.

It's that willful denial that lets priests get away with rapine, that keeps the Prosperity Gospel preachers in business, and makes faith healing profitable.  At its very best, it's sort of like Teddy's delusion from Arsenic and Old Lace; he is quite harmless, and believes he's Teddy Roosevelt.  The front stairs are San Juan hill, the basement is Panama.  He charges up one and digs locks in the other... it's amusing, but defies all logic.  It simply isn't true, but the delusion is harmless and the main characters allow it to him because it is harmless.

TBright asks what evidence I would accept?  I'm probably the easiest one here.  Show me good evidence for the Exodus.  Show me the worldwide flood, or the remnants of Babel.  These are big, concrete things in the bible, things that would have left an indelible mark on the history of humanity, and are both easy to prove and disprove.  If Noah was all that was left, shouldn't our genetic markers point back to a single common ancestor in the Middle East about six thousand years ago?  They don't.  If the Exodus happened, shouldn't there be some archaeological evidence throughout the Sianai (spelling baaad!) that hints at several hundred thousand people wandering around the desert for a generation?  There isn't any.  Show me that there was a Roman tradition of releasing a single prisoner on a feast day each year.  That'd at least be a starting point for discussion, wouldn't it?

You know, ultimately?  Show me the tomb.  That should be the easiest one of all - it was a large structure whose location was commonly known.  In the advent of the ressurection of the Christ, this would be one of the holiest places on the planet, and it was made out of solid stone, on private land, owned by a follower.  Shouldn't there be records of what happened to it?  Shouldn't this, of all places, not be lost?   The Jews kept the Temple of Solomon, a cave held the Dead Sea Scrolls... surely we wouldn't lose a whole cave?

I'm easy.  I don't need an amputee to be healed, I just need.. something to start from.  Something that's, say, seventy percent certain that confirms one of these huge events.

So.  Why isn't there anything?  Shouldn't that be easy?   Isn't it important to find it and preserve it?  Why does it all not exist.. and why is it people find it acceptable to allow lies to persist in willful denial?

Augh. I rant.  Shutting up now. :)
"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

-- Randall, XKCD http://xkcd.com/900/

Offline Dante

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2010, 04:01:36 PM »
Great rant though.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #53 on: October 28, 2010, 04:05:26 PM »
tbright,

When you understand why you find this....

http://www.islamreligion.com/videos/2332/

and this....

http://islamworld.net/docs/true.html

and this...

http://signofallah.tripod.com/id2.html

to be unworthy of a second thought, then you will understand why atheists think the ones you posted aren't worth a dam either.  You have to understand that we view Christianity in the same way you view Islam.  The evidence for Islam is just as underwhelming as that of Christianity, yet members of both religions will adamantly stand by their beliefs, regardless of what the other has to say about it.  What else is the atheist to do but stand back and laugh at both of you?     


Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Alzael

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2010, 04:05:36 PM »
Well said, Grimm. I would like to make a proposition to tbright on behalf of the atheists here (if it isn't too presumptious for you guys). Don't bother trying to prove god, don't bother trying to prove the bible to be true. Just prove to us that Jesus even existed in the first place. I think that would be a very good start and make things much more manageable for someone like you.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Asmoday

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2010, 04:26:31 PM »
I'm easy.  I don't need an amputee to be healed, I just need.. something to start from.  Something that's, say, seventy percent certain that confirms one of these huge events.
Problem is that for a Christian you are not easy at all with all those (legitimate) questions. For them "easy" people like you are the worst sort of people there can be.

Why, you ask? Because you are asking for things that can not simply be talked away with apologetics. Things that can not be prayed into existence or prayed away. Things that can't can't be substituted by fuzzy feelings.

You are asking for the "easy" things that should be there. All that stuff that should really stand out and which nobody should have trouble finding. All the huge (both literal and metaphorical) things that nobody could miss...if they were there...which they aren't...

So don't think you're easy. Compared to other folks, who start talking about contradiction in the bible for example, "easy" people like you are their worst nightmares.
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2010, 04:36:46 PM »
I just want the worldwide flood of Noah to have left something behind that looks like there was this, well, great big flood.  Nice, simple, concrete, like the Grand Canyon, geology is hard to lie about (although people try!)

They can't show us places on the planet with all kinds of fossils, reptiles, mammals, extinct and still around, all jumbled up together like they would if there was a real flood that big. Any ancient sediments with fossils of mammals found underneath the reptiles? Ferns above the flowers? A few places with human remains mixed in with dinosaurs?

If entire civilizations were  flooded out and destroyed, it should look like Pompeii after Vesuvius all over the place--buildings, people, dogs, cats, livestock, all buried in mountains of sediment. And every one a horrible sinner, with the elderly, the men, the women, the babies, the unborn fetuses,  all drowned with their hands around each other's throats, picking each other's pockets, stabbing each other in the back, lying about their weight, having illicit sex with each other.....

If the thing was worldwide, there should be quite a bit of evidence like this. All over the place. But nothin'. Just the same old boring layers with the same old fossils in order from primitive life forms to more complex. No flood. No Noah. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: tbright asks what evidence would make atheists reconsider?
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2010, 04:42:12 PM »
You have to understand that we view Christianity in the same way you view Islam.  The evidence for Islam is just as underwhelming as that of Christianity, yet members of both religions will adamantly stand by their beliefs, regardless ...

JeffPT you've nailed it as far as I'm concerned.  Why won't God show us a sign to settle this issue?  Oooooops I forgot about:

Git mit uns