Author Topic: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".  (Read 4284 times)

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Offline OnePerson

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2010, 01:41:01 PM »
Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near?  For instance, in the that movie "Frozen" where 3 people are trapped on a ski lift in the blizzard.  One guy tries jumping down so he can get help and then breaks both legs and 3 wolves eat him alive.  So the other two are faced the possibilities of either freezing to death, or falling and breaking bones then eaten.  You would think God may come up in a situation like that.

Oh God, save my life and we can all just forget about the guy who died rather painfully trying to get help by jumping down.

Offline rev45

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2010, 01:56:31 PM »
Let me just ham-handedly blurt out the question: Are you theist or atheist?

If you answer theist, I'm still kind of in the dark, because since you don't adhere to any recognized religion I have no idea what it is you do believe.

If you answer atheist, then I don't remember what we were talking about anymore.  ;-)

I'm an atheist.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2010, 06:00:57 PM »
Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near?  

Would you REALLY deny Zeus if you were about to die?

Would you call out for Superman or Underdog to save you if you were stuck out on that lift?


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« Last Edit: October 21, 2010, 06:02:43 PM by Brakeman »
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Offline Ashe

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2010, 07:11:29 PM »
Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near? 

Proximity to death has nothing to do with what is true. I would never call out to something that I'd spent most of my life truly believing is imaginary. It just doesn't work like that. It's almost like if I asked you if you'd call out to Santa in a moment of crisis.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2010, 07:24:40 PM »
Rev45, I abjectly apologise.

I have no idea what happened. Somehow I confused you with DoubtfulOne, and maintained this misapprehension until just now.

Please forgive me.
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Offline rev45

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2010, 08:28:01 PM »
Rev45, I abjectly apologise.

I have no idea what happened. Somehow I confused you with DoubtfulOne, and maintained this misapprehension until just now.

Please forgive me.
It's alright.  I did the same thing, thinking you were DoubtfulOne when I responded to your first question to me.

Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near? 
As others in this thread have said, if I were close to death I think I don't think calling out to a god would help the situation.  If I were to call out to a god, my chances of choosing the right one wouldn't be high considering the thousands of gods that have been called upon throughout the ages.
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Offline Dante

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2010, 09:39:48 PM »
@DO,

Can you understand why we say we wouldn't call out to god? It's not because we deny, or have contempt. It's because there's no reason to believe that praying would alter the outcome of the event! It would be akin to calling out to the Easter bunny.....your chances of surviving the encounter would not change either way. And with that being said, your chances of the altering of your life, or the chances of surviving this life, are in no way affected by believing in imaginary deities.

Drop the delusion. It's totally unnecessary for living!
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2010, 05:48:19 AM »
Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near? 

Indeed, why DON'T I utter a prayer to Zeus?  Why DON'T I call on Osiris to save me?  Why DON'T I call on merciful Allah to save me? 

Or, quite frankly, why DON'T I implore the queen of the fairies to send him imps and pixies to carry me to safety?

Because I don't believe in any of them - so much so that it wouldn't even cross my mind to try it. 

Ask YOURSELF why you would not try any of the things I have mentioned....and you will begin to understand why we would never consider calling on your "one-god-out-of-millions".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Grimm

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2010, 07:49:45 AM »
DO,

It's no suprise that you think we have have "interpreted" Mark 10:21 in error....
 

Your right, I can't deny what you've just said.  In fact, much of my time on the pc is spent downloading torrents of secular movies and books. 

I'm going to be more blunt than usual in this post:

I appreciate your honesty, both in noting the theological trouble with the passage and your own interpretation therepon.  But I'm also going to add this:  You are also a thief.[/b]  It doesn't matter what you feel about torrenting or about copyright law or any of the rest; you are stealing people's work blatantly, and without guilt.

You are committing harm, no matter how innocent it may seem, in some small way to those whose livelihoods are wrapped up in producing the entertainment you're consuming - and there are better ways.  Ten bucks a month for a netflix subscription, perhaps?  Buying the books?   I will not deny that the business models are outmoded, and there are better ways of pushing this media out to the world than the companies are using, and I'm not a big fan of copyright law as it stands.  The DMCA is a pile of fetid dingo's kidneys. 

That doesn't change that you're committing one of those 'sins' that's a fairly easy one to rectify.  You are stealing.  How can you claim devout behavior and then flagrantly steal when it is convenient for you to do so?  To put it another way, you're not passing the "Wallet Test".

Why should we believe anything you say about the interpretation of your god you present if you, yourself are unethical?

"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

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Offline screwtape

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2010, 08:24:20 AM »
Hey D.O.

These questions were not intended rhetorically. 

I guess this was just my own interpretation.

And why might you interpret it that way?  What would be anyone's motivation to take that particular perspective on it?


I mean, I'm glad The good Ambassador responded, so I at least know this thing is on.  But if you would respond, that would make me happier.  And you care about my happiness, right?
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Offline gonegolfing

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2010, 08:26:27 AM »
Quote
Here's a question for you guys that has probably been asked a zillion times.  Would you guys really deny God in a situation where death was near?  For instance, in the that movie "Frozen" where 3 people are trapped on a ski lift in the blizzard.  One guy tries jumping down so he can get help and then breaks both legs and 3 wolves eat him alive.  So the other two are faced the possibilities of either freezing to death, or falling and breaking bones then eaten.  You would think God may come up in a situation like that.

I think you need to take a closer look at what you've asked and then ask yourself this: Why would an atheist who has had no access to or evidence for a god for their entire life, all of a sudden at death, call out to a god who they have no reason whatsoever to believe exists ?

The fact of the matter is DO, that if your god exists, then it has denied us! As a matter of fact it has denied you also. It has denied us access to the evidence required to prove its existence. It has denied us access to itself by hiding its being from the very mechanisms(senses) that it created in us to be able to do such a thing. It creates us fully equipped to search for it but denies us from finding it. "Seek and ye shall find". What a joke  &)

Actually, it's not funny at all, as the god hypothesis has made our world a delusional and often dangerous place to be.

In your analogy, wouldn't it have been much nicer for a caring god to cue a nice delicious Elk to wander into the story at this point ? Sure it would have been ! If I were a christian, and one of the two guys left on the lift to watch my friend get eaten while trying to save my life, I would at that moment have either become an atheist or believed that my god hated me......If I were an atheist, it would have soberingly confirmed to me both the validity and intellectual honesty of my without belief in gods position, and the raw and brute power of nature at work.

Be truthful DO, have you seen any hard core sensory evidence for a god anywhere else but in your thoughts ? Have you experienced the physical reality of a deity anywhere else but in your mind ? Can you point at anything or anywhere on this earth and say "look there's a god" other than pointing to the thoughts and opinions of your mind ? .................Truthfully, no you can't.

The world needs to get serious and get honest with itself. The real question we need to ask is:

Will I deny my faculty of reason its rightful place any longer ?  :-[      
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 08:33:07 AM by gonegolfing »
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Offline DoubtfulOne

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2010, 02:14:16 PM »
I'll try to answer everyone at once.  I have never experienced anything supernatural of any sort.  I have vivid imagination and I think of and visualize horrors no mortal ever would dare to dream.  Especially when I read the bible do the visions hit me, especially in a state of hypnagogia. When I ignore all religion and supernatural entities and focus on what is real, I don't have any of these problems.

Religion hasn't done anything for me and I have of course, never had a valid response to a prayer not even in terms of luck.  I just figured that being faced with the burden bore of never that it would lead a man to thinking things he had never contemplated ever in his existence. But I guess there really are atheists in foxholes!  Thanks for being honest.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2010, 02:15:26 PM »
The desire to call out for help when we are in difficult situations is an evolved / positively reinforced behavior.  When babies are hungry, wet, tired, thirsty, in pain, etc, they all cry out for help.  As children age, they are positively reinforced to continue the behavior because... well, it works.  A child crying usually gets some help. 

The fact is, when we get older (like all of our instincts) it doesn't just die off.  It stays with you.  But when you are older, there is nobody out there to catch you when you fall.  Regardless of whether you want there to be or not, there is no God listening to our cries for help.  None.  It doesn't exist.   

Whether it be a child left all alone in the wilderness, or an old couple trapped in their attic with flood waters rising, they will all cry out for help.  The child will cry for mommy and daddy, and the old couple will cry out for invisible sky daddy. 
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Offline Dante

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2010, 02:47:34 PM »
Bolding mine.

I'll try to answer everyone at once.  I have never experienced anything supernatural of any sort.  I have vivid imagination and I think of and visualize horrors no mortal ever would dare to dream.  Especially when I read the bible do the visions hit me, especially in a state of hypnagogia. When I ignore all religion and supernatural entities and focus on what is real, I don't have any of these problems.

Religion hasn't done anything for me and I have of course, never had a valid response to a prayer not even in terms of luck.  I just figured that being faced with the burden bore of never that it would lead a man to thinking things he had never contemplated ever in his existence. But I guess there really are atheists in foxholes!  Thanks for being honest.


So why do you continue to believe? Because of your vivid imagination and indoctrination?

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline velkyn

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2010, 03:14:34 PM »
I'll try to answer everyone at once.  I have never experienced anything supernatural of any sort.  I have vivid imagination and I think of and visualize horrors no mortal ever would dare to dream.  Especially when I read the bible do the visions hit me, especially in a state of hypnagogia. When I ignore all religion and supernatural entities and focus on what is real, I don't have any of these problems.
  That generally happens with most humans. Don't get lost in your fantasies and you'll likely have fewer problems.  And if your imagination is so horrific, I, in all seriousness, think you might want to consider some professional help. 

Quote
Religion hasn't done anything for me and I have of course, never had a valid response to a prayer not even in terms of luck.  I just figured that being faced with the burden bore of never that it would lead a man to thinking things he had never contemplated ever in his existence. But I guess there really are atheists in foxholes!  Thanks for being honest.

There are more than atheists in foxholes (http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html) , sometimes being in that foxhole makes an atheist.  I have an acquaintance in the area who being a solider in WWII, realized the whole religion thing was garbage when they found the death camps.
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Offline DoubtfulOne

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2010, 07:29:31 PM »
"In your analogy, wouldn't it have been much nicer for a caring  god to cue a nice delicious Elk to wander into the story at this point"?

I don't think that would help at all, think about it.  Most predators are very opportunistic and will take the easiest option for a meal whenever presented.  A healthy and fast elk vs. a weakened immobile person.  Wolves would take the easy route, rather than go on a long hunt through treacherous conditions using up vital energy. Plus, these wolves were most likely weakened by hunger at this point.

I've come to the conclusion that religion induces fear and such supernatural paranoias.  I don't think my weird imagination could be helped by some drug prescribed that will suck nutrients out of my body and make me a mindless, pale and shivering zombie.  Rather, just watching what kind of tripe my brain intakes. 
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2010, 07:33:19 AM »
I've come to the conclusion that religion induces fear and such supernatural paranoias.  I don't think my weird imagination could be helped by some drug prescribed that will suck nutrients out of my body and make me a mindless, pale and shivering zombie.  Rather, just watching what kind of tripe my brain intakes. 

I have vivid imagination and I think of and visualize horrors no mortal ever would dare to dream.  Especially when I read the bible do the visions hit me....

So throw away your Bible then.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2010, 05:53:40 PM »
I'll try to answer everyone at once.  I have never experienced anything supernatural of any sort.  I have vivid imagination and I think of and visualize horrors no mortal ever would dare to dream.  Especially when I read the bible do the visions hit me, especially in a state of hypnagogia. When I ignore all religion and supernatural entities and focus on what is real, I don't have any of these problems.

Religion hasn't done anything for me and I have of course, never had a valid response to a prayer not even in terms of luck.  I just figured that being faced with the burden bore of never that it would lead a man to thinking things he had never contemplated ever in his existence. But I guess there really are atheists in foxholes!  Thanks for being honest.


+1 for quoting Poe[1] so close to Halloween.  I'll bother you to answer my question, nevermore.


 1. of the Edgar Allen kind, not the pretend fundie kind
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Online Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #47 on: October 27, 2010, 04:42:14 AM »
Why should I decide that reality isn't real just because I might die?  Why should I think any magic sky god will do anything for me if it hasn't for billions?  This is basically that moronic Pascal's Wager.  Sorry, I'm not so poor of character to decide that I should give up my honesty for no chance of any magical help. 

I think that people who ask questions such as the one to which you responded, are still pulled by belief.  They see denial of god as a deliberate, perhaps even defiant decision.  They hear the logic, the arguments, they see flaws in their religion, and yet cannot really conceive of not believing.  They imagine a time where the evidence against god's existence will convince them to declare themselves atheists, but suspect that in their heart of hearts, they will always believe.  When that moment of truth comes, as they are sure it shall, will they have the courage to stand by their logical choice not to believe, or surrender to that shred of faith they think will still be there?

What they don't understand is that when one is truly swayed by the evidence, the logical arguments, one does not decide not to believe, one simply just no longer believes.  The scales fall from one's eyes.


Offline velkyn

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2010, 10:26:30 AM »
^^^^ agreed.

Oh and DO, I wonder about this:

Quote
I don't think my weird imagination could be helped by some drug prescribed that will suck nutrients out of my body and make me a mindless, pale and shivering zombie.
drugs don't do that usually. 
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Offline Doctor X

Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2010, 03:05:57 PM »
Quote
I don't think my weird imagination could be helped by some drug prescribed that will suck nutrients out of my body and make me a mindless, pale and shivering zombie.
drugs don't do that usually. 

No, masturbating to goat porn will do that.




What?




That is what I have been told.  There was . . . like . . . a Seasame Street special on it. . . .

Anyways, kudos DoubtfulOne for, well, doubting.  Have patience with some of us who have dealt with your questions and issues numerous times in the past, particularly from those wishing to preach.  Pas├žal's Fallacy is a favorite for theists to trot out along with quoting the Bible selectively then threatening to pray for us.  However, one has to understand that fallacies have such power because they seem to make sense, particularly on an emotional level.  So your question is a valid emotional one, but it we ["We?"--Ed.] see it used as an impotent cudgel just too many times.

Similarly, many grow up assuming the Bible is "true" on some very major level--from true history all the way to Young Earth Creationism.  This means it seems reasonable for many to quote from it as if that means something in and of itself.  After years of having the Bible thrown at them, Atheists tend to get a bit . . . defensive. 

Best wishes on your journey.

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Offline velkyn

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Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2010, 03:23:11 PM »
That is what I have been told.  There was . . . like . . . a Seasame Street special on it. . .

nah, it was an "Afterschool Special".  Oh those little morality plays from my youth ;D
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Offline Doctor X

Re: different perspective of "recognize we all ignore Jesus".
« Reply #51 on: October 27, 2010, 03:25:00 PM »
That is what I have been told.  There was . . . like . . . a Seasame Street special on it. . .

nah, it was an "Afterschool Special".  Oh those little morality plays from my youth ;D

Was that the epic Mary Has Two Goats?

--J.D.