Conditions for a miracle...

[goshen]

You see, when a book makes faith a virtuous thing, it's doing so because it has something to hide.  A book that says "turn off your brain and just accept what I tell you, even if I can't prove it" is something that we should be extremely skeptical about.   Do you normally just accept stuff that people tell you or that you read?  Is "Just trust me!" normally enough for you?  I'm sorry, but that's just not good enough for me. 

I am truly sorry for that.  I know what is coming, and I do not want anyone to live through it, or suffer eternity in it.

There isn't only miracles to look at.  There are hundreds of prophesies that have come to pass, and continue to come to pass, especially in the last 60 years!!

Faith isn't what saves us.  It's what makes us fools.  It's nothing more than a thick fog that conceals the truth.

Actually the Holy Spirit conceals Truth, and reveals it to the believer throughout the course of his/her walk.

Psalms 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 14:9 Fools make a mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favour

Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Proverbs 18:2 A fool hath no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself.

Ecclesiastes 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil.

Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Proverbs 18:7 A fool's mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Romans 1:22-23 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

[goshen]

In your post, those are the only things that are your own words.  Next time, can you write your arguements using your own words?  Thanks.

I lean not to my own understanding, but on the Everlasting Word of God.  Moses didn't even trust himself to his own words, even though God said He would speak for him.

[goshen]

That is in dispute.  From a modern perspective it looks like fabricated stories - fabricated by a process of "Chinese whispers" before it was written.

Actually, if you look at historical writings from the period, there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Alexander the Great ever lived at all.

To say it is "fabricated stories" is to ignore Jewish writings of the period that definately were not Christian.  They would not want to prove Jesus existed, but they wrote about Him, proving His existence.  There are also Roman writings as well as other non-Christian writings about Jesus.

To say they are "fabricated stories", or "Jesus never existed" is equivalent of Iran's president Ahmidinijab saying the Holocaust never existed.

[Ambassador Pony]

Can you name the top three contemporaneous sources?

con·tem·po·ra·ne·ous/k?n?temp??r?n??s/
Adjective: Existing or occurring in the same period of time.

[jetson]

goshen,

Humans turned into monkeys?  Seriously?

Comparing Jesus to Alexander the Great?  Seriously?

You are showing yourself to be fairly ignorant, and you are certainly not providing any evidence to back up your non-sense, which is against the rules.  Have you read them yet?

Spewing lines and lines of scripture at a forum full of people who are far more knowledgable of scripture than most Christians is just not going to impress anyone.  Especially when you do not provide any actual extra-biblical evidence of your assertions.  You are pretty much preaching here, which is also against the rules.

Anyway, it is always good to discuss these things that you hold so dear, but we do have former Christians, and even former Pastors on this forum that have lived and breathed The Bible themselves.  If you care to discuss, then you might want to take a deep breath, read the rules and etiquette, and take your time in responding.

[jetson]

AP - the sig, the sig...man, we could make money auctioning some of those.

[Aaron123]

I lean not to my own understanding, but on the Everlasting Word of God.  Moses didn't even trust himself to his own words, even though God said He would speak for him.

Should I take this to mean your posts will consisit mostly of bible verses, with little of your own words to back them up?

Well, I guess you can try this, but you won't impress anyone here.  Many of us have read the bible, and will be well-familar with the passages in question.  Your posts will be seen as preaching, and that's something of a no-no around here.

[William]

First you give me the names and addresses of the monkeys that turned into humans.

Well actually we have thousands of transition fossils AND a mountain of DNA evidence that links modern humans, apes and monkeys to common ancestors   

I'll start with Lucy who usually hangs out at Ethiopia’s National Museum.  I can even show you a pic of her:



I'm happy to drag up more - but each one will make you look more ignorant and I'd prefer not to humiliate you too much.

Meanwhile you have nothing outside your hearsay fairy tale that corroborates any miracles of Jesus.

[William]

To say they are "fabricated stories", or "Jesus never existed" is equivalent of Iran's president Ahmidinijab saying the Holocaust never existed.

Your comparison does not hold up.  We have real eye witness acounts (people who actually were there) and mountains of evidence, even the names of missing persons - all backing up the actual facts of the holocaust.

You have not one genuine eye witness to attest to any of the extraordinary claims about Jesus in the bible.

All you have is excuses about people who should have been able to corrobotate the miracles of Jesus, but since they do not, you must claim they had other agendas    You have no evidence whatsoever.

[screwtape]

I guess you missed the point of my post.  They did see miracles, and still some did not have faith.

So why no miracles now?

[jetson]

I guess you missed the point of my post.  They did see miracles, and still some did not have faith.

So why no miracles now?

That point flew right past him...surprise.

[Operator_023]

In your post, those are the only things that are your own words.  Next time, can you write your arguements using your own words?  Thanks.

I lean not to my own understanding, but on the Everlasting Word of God.  Moses didn't even trust himself to his own words, even though God said He would speak for him.

goshen,

This is a fair warning.  Read our forum rules if you have not already.  And what you wrote above indicates to me that you intend to either preach, or post things without providing evidence or facts to support them.  By signing onto this forum, you agreed to abide by the forum rules, and I expect nothing less. 

If you have specific questions or concerns, send me a PM.

[kcrady]

Christ performed many miracles during his ministry.  Some of The people who actually saw with their own eyes, were there condemning Him to death in Jerusalem. 

2 Corinthians 5:7: We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight

Simply seeing a miracle being performed in front of your very eyes does not correlate to believing.

So, for Biblegod to perform demonstrable miracles does not violate free will or the putative requirement for faith, and yet...

You see, if God were to prove Himself to us, we wouldn't need Faith.  Faith is what saves us.

So which is it?

1 Corinthians 2:14: “But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
-The Holy Spirit is what reveals the meaning of Scripture

1 John 5:6, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."
John.15:26   The Spirit of truth...shall testify of Me (Jesus)

Prov 3:5,7a (NIV) Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding.... Do not be wise in your own eyes

"Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them."
?Obi-Wan Kenobi

"Who's the more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?"
?Obi-Wan Kenobi

"Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

--Obi-Wan Kenobi

So, the Bible tells us to shut off our minds and follow an inner divine guidance ("the Holy Spirit").  Obi-Wan Kenobi tells us to shut off our minds and follow an inner divine guidance ("the Force").  Once we've shut off our minds, what methodology do we have for deciding whether to blindly follow Jesus or Obi-Wan?  The amount of historical evidence for both is about the same, and the Gospel According to Lucas has better special effects...

Ephesians 2:8-10:   For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Hebrews 11: 6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Matthew 17: 20  So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.

Galatians 2: 16  Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

1 Corinthians 2: 5  So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.

Question #1: What would an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient super-spirit have to gain from credulous human belief and blind obedience?

Question #2: What would ordinary mammals like ourselves, claiming to be spokesmen for an eternal, omnipotent, omniscient super-spirit have to gain from credulous human belief and blind obedience?

Question #3: Which is more likely: that an entity capable of creating a hundred billion galaxies with a thought would have a desperate need for human credulity and unquestioning obedience?  Or that ordinary humans like ourselves, pretending to be the spokesmen and courtiers of an omnipotent cosmic King, could profit handsomely from human credulity and unquestioning obedience?  Hint: see, "Church, Roman Catholic;" also, "Megachurch."

Question #4: Would you treat demands for unthinking credulity and unquestioning obedience made on behalf of some other deity (say, Allah, in the Quran) with suspicion and skepticism?  Why or why not?

[Anfauglir]

You see, if God were to prove Himself to us, we wouldn't need Faith.  Faith is what saves us.

Interesting.  So you agree that there is NO proof of your god's existence?  That the Bible is NOT proof of god?

And yet.....

....there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Alexander the Great ever lived at all..

Which is it Goshen?  Is there evidence for Jesus, that by its existence denies faith?  Or is there NO evidence, in order that (as you say) our unsupported faith can save us?

You're all over the place here....

[Doctor X]

Actually, if you look at historical writings from the period, there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Alexander the Great ever lived at all.

No.

--J.D.

[Doctor X]

Actually the Holy Spirit conceals Truth, . . .

So The Spook is EVIL?  Why do you worship it.

As for the rest:

1 Sam 15:3: "Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy (?rm) all that they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey."

Time for you to put away the fairy tales.

--J.D.

[Aaron123]

N/A

guy I was responding to got his post moved.

[Blaze]

I would not be convinced of a miracle by mere regeneration of limbs over a period of time. That might be a sign of humans finally being able to regenerate limbs like lizards regenerate tails.

Maybe if it happens exactly like some people claim it to be happening, with bright light all around the growing areas, and the whole leg appearing in a matter of seconds. It should be well documented, photographed my multiple agencies and witnessed by a large number of trustworthy people. Such a process of instantaneous regeneration is impossible with our current knowledge of the human body. Therefore a logical conclusion would have to be that a supernatural entity caused it.

That does NOT mean that it is the christian, muslim, hindu or some other particular god.

One other example of a miracle that cannot be mistaken for anything else is spontaneous regrowth of every single limb on the planet.

Another would be spontaneous eradication of sufferingl, but that's asking for too much.

There are a lot of things that could not be mistaken for anything else but a miracle, but every single one of them go against the 'religion rulebooks'. "God doesn't need to prove himself", "God should preserve free will", yada yada. It's no use.

[Hatter23]

That is in dispute.  From a modern perspective it looks like fabricated stories - fabricated by a process of "Chinese whispers" before it was written.

Actually, if you look at historical writings from the period, there is far more evidence that Jesus existed than there is that Alexander the Great ever lived at all.

To say it is "fabricated stories" is to ignore Jewish writings of the period that definately were not Christian.  They would not want to prove Jesus existed, but they wrote about Him, proving His existence.  There are also Roman writings as well as other non-Christian writings about Jesus.

To say they are "fabricated stories", or "Jesus never existed" is equivalent of Iran's president Ahmidinijab saying the Holocaust never existed.

Please cite said Documents that are not known ambiguities or forgeries(i.e. Jospheus)that are contemporary to roughly 33CE.

I know I can rovide tons of evidence of your "equivalent" from 1944CE

[Vivisectus]

The conditions of a miracle would have to be something that is demonstrably against the laws of nature - something so incredibly unlikely that to assume it is caused by a supernatural being would be just as likely as the assumption that it happened without any supernatural intervention.

If, for instance, JS Bach would materialize out of thin air, ask me to show him around the synthesizer and audio tracker, and get down to some serious composing I would definitely consider this a miracle and become a priest once the DNA test has confirmed that according to what we know today it seems reasonable that this is the man himself.

Now a god who would do THAT would be one worth following...

[december1990]

To be honest, I believe ALL of us would believe if we saw Jesus heal an amputee. If Jesus was back here on earth all of us would fall to our feet and listen to His teachings. The problem is He isn't here now and we have His old words to rely on. But I believe everyone in here or most would believe Jesus if they saw the miracles... But right now we have to base things on faith and The Bible if we want to believe in what happened in the past.

december1990,
please use standard size font.  The larger font is annoying.  Thanks.

[grant]

But right now we have to base things on faith and The Bible if we want to believe in what happened in the past.

That is a very strange way of putting it.

"We have to"

"If we want to believe in what happened in the past"

Sounds a bit sad and desperate.....

[Aaron123]

]To be honest, I believe ALL of us would believe if we saw Jesus heal an amputee. If Jesus was back here on earth all of us would fall to our feet and listen to His teachings. The problem is He isn't here now and we have His old words to rely on. But I believe everyone in here or most would believe Jesus if they saw the miracles... But right now we have to base things on faith and The Bible if we want to believe in what happened in the past.

(bold mine)

Begging the question; why isn't Jesus here?  Why doesn't Jesus heal an amputee today?  Why do we only hear about this sort of things in old stories?

This is just what we'd expect if Jesus was just a made-up character.

[pingnak]

Are those even his words?  The bible was compiled, edited, redacted.  Nothing at all we can see was said by him was set to paper until centuries after he died (or 'ascended', if you prefer).

"The problem is He isn't here now and we have SOMEONE's old words to rely on."

[Anfauglir]

I believe ALL of us would believe if we saw Osiris heal an amputee. If Osiris was back here on earth all of us would fall to our feet and listen to His teachings. The problem is He isn't here now and we have His old words to rely on. But I believe everyone in here or most would believe Osiris if they saw the miracles... But right now we have to base things on faith and The Book of the Dead if we want to believe in what happened in the past.

Why don't you believe in Osiris, Dec90?  You have exactly the same things to go on - some old books that speak of unverifiable events several thousand years ago.  So why Jesus and not Osiris, or any other god or gods of the literally thousands there have been?

[Ivellios]

<snip>

Ouch, my eyes are now bleeding.

I guess you have to take that on faith.

Those are MY words and I'm sticking with them, if I'm going to die for someone's lie... It may as well be MY lie! I forgot what movie that line was from.   The person decided to change his mission and story once he found out he was sent on a suicide mission, but at that point he was well within enemy territory.

What's one man's technology is another man's magic. If some 'god' were to heal an amputee, how would we know it was really magic and just not some high fangled tech we don't yet understand? So healing an amputee wouldn't 'prove' a god but it would be a good starting point.

[jedweber]

If some 'god' were to heal an amputee, how would we know it was really magic and just not some high fangled tech we don't yet understand?

And there are other possible explanations. Here's P.Z. Myers:

There are always better explanations for unexplained phenomena than god: fraud and faulty sensory perception cover most of the bases, but mostly, if I see a Madonna appear in a field to bless me, the first thing I'd suspect is brain damage. We have clumsy, sputtering, inefficient brains that are better designed for spotting rutabagas and triggering rutting behavior at the sight of a curvy buttock than they are for doing math or interpreting the abstract nature of the universe. It is a struggle to be rational and objective, and failures are not evidence for an alternative reality. Heck, we can be fooled rather easily by mere stage magicians; we don't need to invent something as elaborate as a god to explain apparent anomalies. ...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/10/eight_reasons_you_wont_persuad.php

[velkyn]

To be honest, I believe ALL of us would believe if we saw Jesus heal an amputee. If Jesus was back here on earth all of us would fall to our feet and listen to His teachings. The problem is He isn't here now and we have His old words to rely on. But I believe everyone in here or most would believe Jesus if they saw the miracles... But right now we have to base things on faith and The Bible if we want to believe in what happened in the past.

Not if we *actually* want to know what happened in the past.  The bible has been shown to be wrong and wrong again, just like many many similar myths.  and well, my fellow forum members have shown what you get if you are idiotic enough to believe based on faith alone.  Yuo get shown that your claims are nothing special and just as ridiculous as the next religion.   

[unshinbop]

The criteria for regrown limb would have to minimally consist of the person claiming to be healed being sought out by the medical establishment (evidence that skeptics and doctors are amazed and seek to meet the claimant for testing), and medical documentation recording a doctor's baffled finding of a regrown limb...documents which can be verified with the doctor office or hospital from which they originated.

The criteria of medical professionals seeking out the claimant for testing could be proven by such requests appearing in peer-reviewed medical journals, such as an open letter to the claimant to come forth, and the doctors will be happy to pay any and all expenses so that they can perform tests to confirm that a limb really did grow in place of the lost limb.

I would say that any evidence that doesn't include the above, is missing the acid test.