Author Topic: Do they really believe?  (Read 17912 times)

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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #319 on: November 04, 2010, 12:18:01 PM »
Magic decoder ring battle again.  Awesome.


I find your claims to be trumped up and a misrepresentation of the bible.
The only way you could think that is if MY representation of the bible differs or challenges yours.  Or, in other words, if my interpretation differs or challenges yours.

However, since you are no more qualified to interpret scripture than I am, I say that my interpretation stands in as good stead as yours does.

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It doesn't teach to hate anyone, it doesn't teach to rape anyone.
I disagree.  Here’s why:

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Judges 21:10-24

 10 So the assembly sent 12,000 of their best warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. 11 “This is what you are to do,” they said. “Completely destroy[a] all the males and every woman who is not a virgin.” 12 Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found 400 young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.

13 The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the remaining people of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. 14 Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the 400 women of Jabesh-gilead who had been spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them.

15 The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the Lord had made this gap among the tribes of Israel. 16 So the elders of the assembly asked, “How can we find wives for the few who remain, since the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? 17 There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel is not wiped out. 18 But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God’s curse.”

19 Then they thought of the annual festival of the Lord held in Shiloh, south of Lebonah and north of Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. 20 They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, “Go and hide in the vineyards. 21 When you see the young women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to the land of Benjamin to be your wife! 22 And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, ‘Please be sympathetic. Let them have your daughters, for we didn’t find wives for all of them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not actually give your daughters to them in marriage.’”

23 So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. Each man caught one of the women as she danced in the celebration and carried her off to be his wife. They returned to their own land, and they rebuilt their towns and lived in them.

24 Then the people of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.


 

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Numbers 31:7-18

7 They attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8 All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

 9 Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11 After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12 they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains[a] who had returned from the battle.

 15 “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.




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Deuteronomy 20:10-14

 10 “As you approach a town to attack it, you must first offer its people terms for peace. 11 If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. 12 But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. 13 When the Lord your God hands the town over to you, use your swords to kill every man in the town. 14 But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the plunder from your enemies that the Lord your God has given you.

 

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Deuteronomy 22:28-29

 28 “Suppose a man has intercourse with a young woman who is a virgin but is not engaged to be married. If they are discovered, 29 he must pay her father fifty pieces of silver.[a] Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he may never divorce her as long as he lives.

  

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Deuteronomy 22:23-24
 
 23"(A)If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her,

 24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.


 

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2 Samuel 12:11-14

 11"Thus says the LORD, 'Behold, I will raise up evil against you from your own household; (A)I will even take your wives before your eyes and give them to your companion, and he will lie with your wives in broad daylight.

 12'Indeed (B)you did it secretly, but (C)I will do this thing before all Israel, and under the sun.'"

 13Then David said to Nathan, "(D)I have sinned against the LORD " And Nathan said to David, "The LORD also has (E)taken away your sin; you shall not die.

 14"However, because by this deed you have (F)given occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born to you shall surely die."




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Deuteronomy 21:10-14

 
Domestic Relations
 10"When you go out to battle against your enemies, and (A)the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive,

 11and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself,

 12then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall (B)shave her head and trim her nails.

 13"She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and (C)mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.

 14"It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go wherever she wishes; but you shall certainly not sell her for money, you shall not mistreat her, because you have (D)humbled her.
 
 

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Judges 5:30


 30'(A)Are they not finding, are they not dividing the spoil?
 A maiden, two maidens for every warrior;
 To Sisera a spoil of dyed work,
 A spoil of dyed work embroidered,
 Dyed work of double embroidery on the neck of the spoiler?'

 

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Exodus 21:7-1

 7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

 10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

 


Quote
Zechariah 14:1-2

God Will Battle Jerusalem's Foes
 1Behold, a (A)day is coming for the LORD when (B)the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

 2For I will (C)gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the (D)houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.



So, as you will see form the above passages, the bible clearly does teach us to rape women and to hate people, and gives us the context in which it can be done.  Lots of people will read that and believe it's ok to rape women and take them as property.  And, in fact, THEY DO, all over the world!


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If you have read the whole book and can say definitively you believe it teaches that, then you show a real lack of intelligence which I am sure you have.
Even if I have read all the bible, ten times, it still comes down to my interpretation of the text.

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As it is you sound like most intellectuals who don't believe in God who see the bible as a tool for Christians and an equal tool for skeptics to punch holes in what Christians believe, you can take your selected verse here and there and make the bible to say what you want, but to do so, means you simply haven't evaluated the entire text.
But that is exactly what you've been doing.  You're cherry-picking biblical text and making it out like your interpretation of thse parts is correct.


Why should anyone believe that YOU are the authority on biblical interpretation?  I say that I have a better understanding than you do.

You say it doesn't teach only goodness.  I agree.  It also teaches a lot of evil stuff too.  Just look above.  None of that is good, it's all bad.

That's the kind of thing your live your life by.  However, lots of us here can show that you cherry-pick the best bits and dismiss the rest by way of claiming that it shouldn't be interpreted in a manner that you find uncomfortable.


:)
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #320 on: November 04, 2010, 12:21:14 PM »
PP, I'm sorry but I think I'm going to have to turn you down and ask Velkyn to marry me instead.
Get away.  She's my online girlfriend.  Mine I tell you.  Grrrr.    >:( ;D  ;)
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #321 on: November 04, 2010, 12:32:17 PM »
In addition to what Velkyn said, I would also add that there are many ways listed in the bible in which one is saved. And most of them require more than just believing in Cosmic Sugar Daddy.

"Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17
 How is this another way of being saved.  It appears to say that works validates faith.  OR gives proof, or at the least, if you have faith you must have works.  If you read the rest of the chapter it seems to say that real faith will not be absent of good works.

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matthew 16:27
 I believe this to be congruent with the judgement in Revelation the white throne judgement, where believers will receive the rewards they have been storing up by their good deeds. Not another way of salvation.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14
or "what use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works?  Can THAT faith save him?"  NASB  

"When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul." Ezekiel 18:27
or save is life.  NASB but the problem we seem to have here, is one we aren't arguing the original language but King James version of interpretation from Greek Aramaic and Hebrew to the Lockman Foundation along with both British and American Scholarship who gave us the ASV.  By incorporating recent discoveries of Hebrew and Greek textual sources and by rendering it into more current English the NASB was formed.  But as for this verse, and the James 2 passage, and many others, how do they fit into the context of the entire bible.  Do they stand alone as ways of salvation or is this part of the bigger picture.  If the OT and NT is truly God's word then you have to put it all together and not just take one out and let it stand alone.

"Whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock. " Matthew 7:24
Don't see the problem here, Jesus is saying you must act on his words, which in vs 13 said enter through the narrow gate, that is, faith in Jesus.

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48
where is this passage linked to salvation?


Ooooh, and while we're at it how about guessing how many verses say that we have no control over whether we end up in hell or not and god just chooses who he wants to go hell or heaven. Oops, sorry, I used that word 'guess' again.
 Do you find mochery amusing.  Has it helped you in some significant way.  There are a few that say it is by faith, there are a few that say faith with works, there are a few that say to ask him for living water.  What did Jesus say, what did the apostles teach.  What is the consistant line of thought through out the new testament?  

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #322 on: November 04, 2010, 12:45:28 PM »
I find that these verses are some better ones on how one is saved and it doesn't have to do with "faith" or "grace".

Matthew 25:31-46  The context seems very clear.  Do good and you are a sheep. 

phelix, how are we to know the "right" version of the Bible?  Why does God allow other versions to exist if any are mistaken as you seem to be claiming? 

and I belive that Al was indicating that by simply being "perfect" one can be saved. 
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Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Evidently Jesus thinks people can be perfect if they follow hiim and his father's instructions.  This seems to go against the usual claims of "dirty rags" that many Christians love to mention.

You ask "What is the consistant line of thought through out the new testament?" The problem is that there isn't one.  WE have JC, we have Paul's claims, etc.  They often don't match.  Even JC isn't consistent. it takes constant assumptions by Christians to try to make them consistent, claiming that they know what God must have really meant. 
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #323 on: November 04, 2010, 02:03:25 PM »
  However, you do not acknowledge that bad behaviour is only bad behaviour because that's what god has defined as bad behaviour.  It has nothing to do with different "realms".

The only reason you are punishing your kids in this context is because god has told you that 'X' or 'Y' behaviour is bad.  Anyone who does anything that is contrary to god's word has sinned.  So, you are, in effect, merely punishing her (under god's orders) for sinning against HIM, not you.


I disagree, I am punishing them for not doing what I asked them.  I decide what is good behavior, the bible says nothing about breaking dishes, nor does God, but if she breaks our fine china, she is getting some discipline.

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #324 on: November 04, 2010, 02:06:09 PM »
You ask "What is the consistant line of thought through out the new testament?" The problem is that there isn't one.  WE have JC, we have Paul's claims, etc.  They often don't match.  Even JC isn't consistent. it takes constant assumptions by Christians to try to make them consistent, claiming that they know what God must have really meant. 

yeah, in science its called collecting the data, and forming a theory.  In doctrine you call it deceitful, lying, and convenient.  You can't have it both ways.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #325 on: November 04, 2010, 02:10:04 PM »
You ask "What is the consistant line of thought through out the new testament?" The problem is that there isn't one.  WE have JC, we have Paul's claims, etc.  They often don't match.  Even JC isn't consistent. it takes constant assumptions by Christians to try to make them consistent, claiming that they know what God must have really meant. 

yeah, in science its called collecting the data, and forming a theory.  In doctrine you call it deceitful, lying, and convenient.  You can't have it both ways.

Unfortunately for you, science considers both the data for and against the hypothesis. If there is evidence against the hypothesis, the hypothesis is wrong.  I've yet to see that with theists. 
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #326 on: November 04, 2010, 02:21:12 PM »
I disagree, I am punishing them for not doing what I asked them.  I decide what is good behavior, the bible says nothing about breaking dishes, nor does God, but if she breaks our fine china, she is getting some discipline.
And who's rule is it that says that not doing what your parents ask is bad...

Yours or god's?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #327 on: November 04, 2010, 02:52:49 PM »
You say that is conveniant, but isn't it convenient when we admit we don't have it all figured out whether its evolution, big bang, microbiology or whatever? 

Here is the thing, phelix.  When churchies say "I don't know" or "it's a mystery", it is intended to be the end of the conversation.  There is always that unspoken baggage attached when those words are uttered. 

Where did god come from? 
I don't know (and I don't care, so shut up about it already, these questions make me very uncomfortable).

But with science, "I don't know" is the beginning of the search for an explanation. When science people say it, it always has that unspoken promise and excitement.

Where did the universe come from?
I don't know (but let's look into it and wouldn't it be cool to find out?)

see the difference?
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #328 on: November 04, 2010, 03:04:46 PM »
I disagree.  Here’s why:

Judges 21:10-24
yeah I read it and all around it, I couldn't find where God was telling them to do so, I saw the part where there was no king and everyone did what was right in their own eyes.  I see this as documenting what they did, not what they were commanded to do.  Therefore this isn't a case of the bible teaching to kill women and children.

 

 
Numbers 31:7-18
 
Numbers 31:4 tells us they did this because they were executing the Lord's vengeance on Midian.  Not that it is a good human practice to be a people who rape and kill innocent children.



Deuteronomy 20:10-14
again, Deut. 20:18 explains that they were to do this because the people were teaching the Isrealites to do detestable things which they did for their gods.  causing Israel to sin against God.  
 

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

How does this support this behavior.  It says, "because he violated her", is it not a widely accepted belief that violations are disobeying the rules?

  

Deuteronomy 22:23-24
 
Sounds like adultery.  Sounds like immediate justice.  Sounds like God was telling them remove wickedness from you.  Doesn't sound like the bible teaching adultery or murder.  We don't call it murder when someone receives capitol punishment.  

 

2 Samuel 12:11-14
Ok.  This is the story of Nathan confronting David about his sin.  He uses a parable to call david out for murder and adultery.  The judgement you have selected from the quote is Nathans reply to David judgement on the parable.  "the child aslo...shall surely die"  Everyone dies.  The consequences of sin is death the bible says here, consistent with what Romans 6:23, consistent with the fall of Adam and Eve.



Judges 5:30 


 30'(A)Are they not finding, are they not dividing the spoil?
 A maiden, two maidens for every warrior;
 To Sisera a spoil of dyed work,
 A spoil of dyed work embroidered,
 Dyed work of double embroidery on the neck of the spoiler?'


Is this not a song Deborah and Barak.  Not a command from the Lord, nor a teaching.
 

Exodus 21:7-1

 7 “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. 8 If she does not satisfy her owner, he must allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. 9 But if the slave’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave but as a daughter.

 10 “If a man who has married a slave wife takes another wife for himself, he must not neglect the rights of the first wife to food, clothing, and sexual intimacy. 11 If he fails in any of these three obligations, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

I have never argued against the bible teaching slavery, but I do contend that it argues for the human rights of everyone including the lsaves, as seen here and many other places.  If everyone is treated with fairness, dignity and respect, would slavery carry with it the negative connotation it does in today's society.

 


Zechariah 14:1-2

God Will Battle Jerusalem's Foes
 1Behold, a (A)day is coming for the LORD when (B)the spoil taken from you will be divided among you.

 2For I will (C)gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the (D)houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city.
Is this a teaching or a warning, is it a prediction or a promise?


So, as you will see form the above passages, the bible clearly does teach us to rape women and to hate people, and gives us the context in which it can be done.  Lots of people will read that and believe it's ok to rape women and take them as property.  And, in fact, THEY DO, all over the world!


  However, lots of us here can show that you cherry-pick the best bits and dismiss the rest by way of claiming that it shouldn't be interpreted in a manner that you find uncomfortable.


:)


If I said, don't count those scriptures as biblical or of God, if I tried to remove those texts from the discussion, then you would be right in saying I dismiss the rest, but I bring up what I think is pertinent to the conversation as do you.  You want to point out slavery rape and murder, I want to point out forgiveness, grace, and mercy.  
« Last Edit: November 04, 2010, 03:25:22 PM by phelix22 »

Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #329 on: November 04, 2010, 03:28:02 PM »
Mmm hmm.  But the thing is, Phelix, is that all those verses I quoted clearly teach men to rape women and kill people, and under what circumstances.  

It's just that you're not reading or seeing them as teachings.  You're choosing to see them as stories, or as songs, or as examples of what not to do.

However, they're clearly teachings.
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #330 on: November 04, 2010, 03:31:43 PM »
You say that is conveniant, but isn't it convenient when we admit we don't have it all figured out whether its evolution, big bang, microbiology or whatever? 

see the difference?
I do.  You make complete sense, the great thing about science is, we can always explore, investigate and there is always more data to evalutate, for the Christian, revelation is closed.  1000 years from now, we won't have the bible plus anything, to give us more insight into God's word, his plan, or anything.  So in a sense we are limited in our resources, we are limited in our understanding, and there is a point where we uncover as much of the mystery as we can, and we have to leave the rest in the hands of faith.  I also realize what an impossibility that is for an athiest and scientists.  But how many athiests fully comprehend the combustion engine, yet each day they sit on gallons of highly explosive gas and put a spark to it by the turn of the key, and yet have faith that it will do what it is supposed to do, and not fully comprehend it. So in a way, I wish I could go further than I can with some of the debates, most of those in this forum have already explored to the very end each area and therefore continue to be bored with Christians who come here, but at the same time, they stay and they debate.  And they ask questions like "Do they really believe?"

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #331 on: November 04, 2010, 03:36:13 PM »
However, they're clearly teachings.
clearly...I don't think so.  if it were clearly, we wouldn't be so divided on the issue, and I am pretty sure it isn't just you and I divided on such an issue.  Does our Nation teach slavery?  Does our history classes teach children that slavery is ok?  it is in their text books.  Based on your claim, it is in there, whether it is documenting events or not, it is in there, therefore it is a teaching.  I don't see why all followers of your logic don't leave America immediately unless they agree that slavery is good.  Not really, but do you see what I mean.  Just because it is written down doesn't make it a teaching anymore than "eat drink and be merry for tomorrow you will die" is a biblical teaching.  Although Solomon did say something like that in Ecclesiastes. 

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #332 on: November 04, 2010, 03:37:47 PM »
I disagree, I am punishing them for not doing what I asked them.  I decide what is good behavior, the bible says nothing about breaking dishes, nor does God, but if she breaks our fine china, she is getting some discipline.
And who's rule is it that says that not doing what your parents ask is bad...

Yours or god's?

That is God's rule. 

Who's rule is it that says breaking the fine china will get you a spanking?

Is there anywhere in the bible or Christian teaching that will support such a rule?

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #333 on: November 04, 2010, 03:41:34 PM »

phelix, how are we to know the "right" version of the Bible?  Why does God allow other versions to exist if any are mistaken as you seem to be claiming? 
  I didn't say king james was wrong or that NASB was right, I just pointed out that on some of the verses listed there were inconsistencies in translation.

Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #334 on: November 04, 2010, 03:44:40 PM »
That is God's rule. 

Exactly.  So if she's being punished for not doing what you say, you're punishing her for sinning.
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #335 on: November 04, 2010, 03:46:14 PM »
I didn't say king james was wrong or that NASB was right, I just pointed out that on some of the verses listed there were inconsistencies in translation.
But if there are inconsistencies in translation between one bible and another, one must be correct and one must be wrong.  Or both could be wrong.  How are we to know which one is correct, or if either of them are correct?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #336 on: November 04, 2010, 04:32:57 PM »
Numbers 31:4 tells us they did this because they were executing the Lord's vengeance on Midian.  Not that it is a good human practice to be a people who rape and kill innocent children.

So you worship a god - an allegedly omnimax god - that takes revenge on an entire group of people by having another group of people kill men, women and children and rape young women?  My first question is, what is wrong with you?  My second question is why would an allegedly omnimax god, one that flooded the whole world and sent plagues on Egypt to get revenge, use the hebrews as its proxy?  Do you think the hebrews liked doing those things?  Did they want to be a tool of this god?  But how do you think they felt about the Babylonians being tools of Marduk when the temple was destroyed?  Kind of sucks being on the other end of that stick, huh?

It seems to me you have not considered some very important moral questions about this yhwh you worship.



again, Deut. 20:18 explains that they were to do this because the people were teaching the Isrealites to do detestable things which they did for their gods.  causing Israel to sin against God.  

The Midianites were causing the hebrews to sin?  You realize you are literally blaming the rape victim for being raped? 
 

How does this support this behavior.  It says, "because he violated her", is it not a widely accepted belief that violations are disobeying the rules?

That is a stretch.  Violating a person is a common polite euphemism for "rape".

If everyone is treated with fairness, dignity and respect, would slavery carry with it the negative connotation it does in today's society.

Your premise is preposterous.  Owning people as property is the polar opposite of treating them with fairness, dignity and respect.  It is the denial of those things.  It is a contradiction in terms to say you treat your slave fairly, respectfully and with dignity. 

Your moral compass is fucked, dude.  Quit defending these obviously immoral ideas and acts.  Just come out and admit this shit appals you because it is appalling.

 


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Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #337 on: November 05, 2010, 08:24:10 AM »

phelix, how are we to know the "right" version of the Bible?  Why does God allow other versions to exist if any are mistaken as you seem to be claiming?  
 I didn't say king james was wrong or that NASB was right, I just pointed out that on some of the verses listed there were inconsistencies in translation.

So, there are inconsistencies in your supposed "holy" book. IF there are "inconsistencies" that you declare as such, then you obviously think you know which bible has the "right" interpretation.  So, again, which is the right bible, phelix?  And why can't your god prevent its message from being corrupted.

And speaking of corruption, why is your god no different from any other bronze age god in being uselessly violent and needing to use evil acts constantly in supposedly getting its will done?

Slavery has the meaning it does because of what it is.  I love how Christians are so desperate to excuse their god that they will say ANYTHING to do it.  Excuse slavery, blame rape victims, declare that children deserve to die horribly, declare that people who have no control over their situation should be just as much punished as those who do, etc.  The absolute moral bankruptcy in so many theists, especially Christians, is sickening and makes me wonder how humanity has gotten as far as it has.  IMO, the answer to that is that we, slowly but surely, are leaving such primitive superstitions behind. It's just too bad we can't do it faster.

EDIT: and I do notice that you ignored my post #325 when it's rather sad that you are quite a hypocrite and have no idea, as usual of what you speak.  Not suprising at all.  I do love forums because you can always see what people have done.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2010, 08:26:09 AM by velkyn »
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Offline lectricpharaoh

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #338 on: November 07, 2010, 07:30:11 AM »
Warning: long posts (I had to split it; it was too long) ahead.  I was absent from the forum for a time, and am replying to a lot here.  And yes, I know tbright is in the ER, but hey- maybe he'll pull off a miracle.

You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.
I'm not a parent, but if I were, I wouldn't expect absolute blind obedience and faith, and punish any shortcoming with death and/or torture.  I do have a cat, and when she misbehaves, I scold her.  I don't punch or slap her.  I don't burn her.  I don't gather the people of my community to throw stones at her until she's dead.  Then again, I don't have the 'perfect morality' that you Christian types possess.

Also, capitalizing every pronoun in reference to your deity (ie, 'He' instead of 'he') just makes you look silly.  Pronouns are not proper names, and do not need capitalization (except at sentence beginnings).

For tbright's opinion of this forum, visit here...

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=13213
The most amusing part of his post there is how he warns his fellow Christians to keep away, then posts the URLs for one of the videos, for the main page, and for one of his threads here in the forum.

He commanded you to worship Him. Either you will do that with a loving heart (as a child loves a parent) or you won't. But either way, you will do it. I promise you.

It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "
Romans 14:11
In case you haven't figured it out, just because something is written (in the Bible or elsewhere) doesn't necessarily make it so.  The Bible also has God telling Adam that if he eats from the tree, he will surely die that day, and then the Bible goes on to show he didn't die that day.  Thus, either the Bible is WRONG, or God is a PROVEN LIAR.

My money is on the former.  The Bible is wrong in many instances because it is just a collection of the laws, rituals, and superstitions of a primitive tribe.

A child is commanded to Honor his/her Father and Mother. HOWEVER, if anyone ever attempts to take advantage of this honor by leading someone into sin (for example) or by contradicting God's Holy Word, then the child would have a first allegience to God rather than his/her parents. The first commandment is first for a reason. Honoring parents is number five.
By your logic, if your mother told you to commit murder, you should do it- after all, 'thou shalt not kill' comes after 'honor thy father and thy mother', so obeying your parents is undoubtedly more important than not murdering your fellow humans.

So you didn't care if your child played in the street against your authority? Remember that authority is ultimately about protection. Either you haven't fully thought about the implications of what you are saying or you have forgotten some of the incredible responsibilities of parenting.
Ultimately about protection, huh?  How is infinite punishment for finite disobedience at all about 'protection'?

Let's use your analogy, and suppose my child (were I to have one) played in the street despite my words.  Let's also assume my child doesn't get hit and killed by a car.  Now, when I get my kid out of the street, should I scold him/her?  Yes.  Should I explain why I said not to play in the street?  You bet.  Should I then torture the kid for as long as I possibly could, being incapable of pulling off eternal torture?  If you answer 'yes' to this, then that says a lot about your own morals (and Biblegod's).

And to think, you have the audacity to imply those who disagree with you are bad parents.

Unless I'm dramatically off base, the Christian god is everywhere.  Sees everything.  Knows everything.  Working on that basis then, anyone who believes in that god, and yet still sins and transgresses the law, is doing something akin to taking a cookie from the jar knowing that the parent is standing right next to the jar watching them.  For more serious crimes....it's like a criminal deciding to break into a shop while handcuffed to a policman, while several other policemen watch him from every conceivable angle.

I honestly can't imagine how ANY sin could actually be committed, if you really believed in an all-seeing god that is everywhere.  It'd be like abusing yourself openly while your parents sit on the bed, like inviting your wife to watch you commit adultery, like insulting someone directly to their face, nose to nose.
More than that, Biblegod is supposedly omnipotent, too, and has no qualms about handing down eternal torture as punishment for the slightest infraction.  A criminal might think he can outshoot, outrun, or otherwise elude the cops, but the same argument cannot be made for evading the wrath of an omnipotent being.

Personally, I think it's usually just a way for them to feel superior over others.  We all break Biblegod's rules, but they are the chosen ones who get to do it with impunity, because Jebus told them so.  The rules don't apply to them, because they're better than us.  It's the same sort of attitude that drives racism, sexism, and most (all?) other forms of bigotry.

It isn't just interesting, it isn't fair.  I should pay for everyone of my sins, but because God forgave me, I don't, not that they didn't go unpunished, but that someone else took that punishment for me.
Let's assume for a minute that God really exists, and Jesus really did suffer and die on the cross, and he really did come back to life three days later.  What punishment did he take on?  He took on some hours of pain, then he was dead for three days, then he 'got better', and got to go to paradise.

Now, let's consider what the usual punishment is for the rest of us.  They get damned to an eternity of torture.  What the fuck?!?  Jesus, taking on the sins for BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, gets a few days of unpleasantness, whereas anyone else gets an eternity...?  If he's taking on the punishment for us, it should be the whole thing.  Since Jesus == God under most brands of Christianity, I guess we can conclude that God didn't have the testicular fortitude to tough it out in the same manner he expects us lowly mortals to, huh?

Can you please explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever?

Quote from: phelix22
It's not because I believe in God that i still get to do bad things, it is just a fact of life, that humans are not able to be perfect.  That doesn't excuse it, there is no loophole, no sin goes unpunished.  And if this God was such a bad God, then why make forgiveness available to anyone?
Let's say I have a dog, and I lock it in the house all day.  It cannot help itself, and it shits all over the carpet.  Despite the fact that it's not the dog's fault (it couldn't go outside), I come home and beat the dog severely for being bad.  If I then stop beating the dog, is this an example of 'perfect goodness'?

Look at Christian doctrine.  We're all sinners, because a) we absorb the 'taint' of an act of disobedience from distant ancestors (does this sound fair to you?), and b) it's in our nature anyways.  Now, consider that God knew it's how we'd turn out (being omniscient), and deliberately created us this way anyways, when it was in his power to create us without this flaw that we have zero control over.  Thus, the only rational conclusion (assuming God exists) is that he wants us to be flawed, so he can punish us for it.  So what if he were to throw us a bone and let a few of us off the hook?  He's still deliberately dooming the vast majority of us to eternal torment.  Does this sound like a MORALLY GOOD being to you?

Quote from: phelix22
It was not God who condemned us, it was God who condemned sin according to scripture.
See above.  If God deliberately designed us to sin, and then condemns sinning, the distinction is moot, no?  It's logically equivalent to condemning us directly.  According to Christian doctrine, we get a 'DAMNED TO HELL' stamp on us at (or even before) birth.

Quote from: phelix22
Also accordingly it says, if anyone believes he is not condemned but for those who reject him they are condemned already.
In other words, all those people who are born into non-Christian societies, who don't get an opportunity to believe (because they never hear the teachings) get condemned for not believing.  More of your deity's 'perfect goodness'.

Quote from: phelix22
pop culture says God condemns us for being us.  Truth of scripture says, sin is the reason for condemnation, not humanity.  If God said all humans are condemned, then Jesus would have been as well.
See above about Jesus getting preferential treatment to the rest of us.

Quote from: phelix22
And if He says,"my bad, all is forgiven", without punishing sin, then he is not a just God, nor a fair God.  my little four year old wants to hit her sister, and then not get in trouble, but if I am a good parent I will discipline her and teach her there are consequences for bad behavior.
What if it's something that a four year old cannot help, such as wetting the bed at night, or not pronouncing a word right?  What about punishing her for not being born a boy?  Do those sorts of things sound fair?  Now imagine the punishment is eternal suffering.  How can any finite transgression (whether or not it is the offender's fault) merit infinite punishment?

Wow, no evidence?  Ever studied antiquity.  Ever heard of BC and AD.  Ever read the Matthew Mark Luke John.  I mean this discussion board is full of people stating there is no God, they demand proof of anyone who contradicts, and yet I ask for proof and I get, "na hah, you gotta prove it." - paraphrase.
Uhm, the earliest of those gospels has been dated at 40+ years after the supposed death of Jesus.  Imagine you are a judge at trial, and one of the lawyers wants to call a witness.  The only catch is the witness didn't get on the scene until decades after the event, and you're supposed to let them tell you what the participants in the event said?  Now imagine you're supposed to accept this witness as infallible.  See why we consider this to be a problem?  Even if this wasn't an issue, it is still circular reasoning.

As far as the BC/AD system goes, do you really suppose they stamped their coins with '150 BC' before Jesus came along?  It was a retroactive system imposed by the church that held overwhelming power in Europe at the time, and as such, attests to nothing more than the fact the church held this power.

I can certainly appreciate that this verse provides us with an example of punishment for the above mentioned groups of people.   Is this damnation brought on by God or by the person? Is that not one of the age old questions? My view is that God as judge certainly will meet out his justice in his own time. I suppose it could even be understood that this is an example of God damning people. I take the view that there is a first cause and a second cause. God made the world and the people. The people sinned fully understanding that to sin deserved death
Fully understanding?  According to Biblical lore, humanity had no idea of right and wrong or good and evil before eating from the tree.  God deliberately withheld that from them.  Essentially, God gave them a rulebook that was encrypted, and the act of decrypting the text was itself a violation of the rules.  They could not possibly know it was wrong until after the fact.

God also told Adam that eating from the tree would cause death 'that day' (which turned out to be a BIG FAT LIE).  God also did not tell Eve about the 'no eating from that tree' rule.  In fact, if you read the Bible, God didn't even create Eve until AFTER he told Adam not to eat from the tree.  Thus, Eve did not violate any rule she was given, yet she (and her female descendants) got the more severe punishment (pains of childbirth).

Quote from: tradesecret
Therefore God sentences them to death. Man or humanity however chose to sin - and thereby damning themselves to the consequences of that action. Similarly in our society. A person kills someone fully knowing that if caught they will go to prison or in your country maybe get the death sentence. It is still the judge who determines the sentence. So really both the criminal and the judge damn the person to whatever punishment the person receives.
Imagine you do something.  It can be anything, such as smiling.  Now imagine once you do that, I whip out a big book called 'THE LAW', and write in 'smiling: punishment is death', and proceed to execute you.  Is that fair?  Okay, you might argue that I wrote it in after the fact.  What if it's something I knew in advance you were going to do?  I pull out the book, and write 'breathing: punishment is eternal damnation'.  Remember, God is all-knowing, so he can do this.  He can also enter 'looking at the book' as a crime, too.

http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip  Sure seems like a get out of jail free card.
Don't forget it completely abrogates free will while not affecting free will at all.  The chosen 'cannot resist' being called, but they 'willingly and freely' come to God.  Even that page you linked to shows these people cannot decide, and so they want to have it both (mutually-contradictory) ways.

No wonder tradesecret doesn't bat an eye at his choice/no choice contradictions.  I could understand his logic if he said 'we cannot choose whether God will make himself known, but once he does, we have free will to accept or decline the offer', but he's said that the offer was one he couldn't refuse.

The Calvinists must feel really special, being chosen without needing to demonstrate having either faith or works.  'Daddy loves me more than you, nyah nyah nyah!'

I couldn't make this stuff up if I had to.  Also,  there is nothing made up in what happened in my life.  What you call mythology is actually called discipleship, being a disciple or follower of the teachings of Jesus.
Did they hate their families and selves as mandated by Luke 14:26?

Quote from: phelix22
I don't know how many literary scholars we have in here, I know there are many who can make a quick quote to a skeptic, and a quick note to watch some educated man state criticism of the bible and its credibility.  the thing is you really have to get way out there to find those who believe there is no man named Jesus, no Jew who lived around 4bc to 29ad, who had a following of 12 men and a few hundred disciples and who's believers have persisted to follow some 2000 years later.
Not so much, actually.  The view that Jesus was a historical person, and that there is evidence of this, is found primarily among Christians.  Even non-Christians who believe Jesus existed tend to use religious sources (like Muslims do).  There is little to no contemporary physical evidence of the life of Jesus, or any of the grand events.  Remember, the gospels were written decades (at least!) after Jesus supposedly died.

You'd think that if this guy went around healing people, raising the dead, turning food for one into food for thousands, etc that there would be contemporary records of it.  Some of those records might be lost, but the claims would start out big, and perhaps get smaller as evidence for those claims was lost, or witnesses died, etc.  However, it happens the other way in Christianity.  It's not until years after the guy died that somebody 'remembers' he came back to life, and someone else 'remembers' he healed the sick, a third person 'remembers' his mom was a virgin, etc.  Then this stuff gets retroactively inserted into the doctrine.  It sounds more like a case of a group of people telling tall tales, each trying to one-up the previous person.  'Born of a virgin?  Oh yeah?  Well, in MY story, Jesus comes back to life!'  This game of one-upmanship culminates with 'in MY story, Jesus IS God Almighty, so top that!'

Quote from: phelix22
What is impossible to believe is that it is based on total fiction.
Not impossible at all.  There are a lot of things that people believe that sound crazy.  While you evidently don't think your Christian beliefs make sense, I expect you'd laugh at the beliefs held by some other religions over time.  People who don't examine their beliefs critically (you know, looking for verifiable evidence and seeing if the various beliefs are logically consistent with one another) can be convinced to believe just about anything.

Look at a little kid and the Santa Claus myth (I hope you'll agree that Santa is mythical).  At a young age, the child just accepts it.  Kids are hardwired to believe what they're told, and they don't tend to show an awful lot of critical thinking.

Quote from: phelix22
Every faith that has stood the test of time has dealt with scrutiny, they are either proven bogus and snuffed out, or there is an element of truth that helps them sustain credibility.
Not necessarily.  Imagine two children in different households who believe in Santa.  Both kids are starting to question the myth, and in the first household, the parents allow the kid to come to the realization that Santa was a 'little white lie' used to make the holiday season 'more magical' for the kid, be a carrot for good behavior, etc.  In the second household, the parents continually reinforce the myth, and try to give the kid answers for any questions.  Santa can magically make a chimney in houses that lack one.  Santa can change the flow of time so as to visit every house in a single night.  Santa has magic boots that muffle his footsteps so as not to wake the family dog.  Even the best alarm systems money can buy cannot detect Santa's presence, and he doesn't show up on security cameras.  Santa fills in the rooftop tracks left by his sleigh, which is why you can't see the evidence.  Basically, all these things are excuses used to explain the lack of evidence.  You cannot cite the fact that many people believed or continue to believe something as evidence that it is true.  It's simply evidence that people believe it to be true.
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Offline lectricpharaoh

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #339 on: November 07, 2010, 07:30:33 AM »
[continued]

The only time that an appeal to popularity has any weight is when the evidence behind that popularity can be examined, and seen to be sound.  For example, I could point out that the vast majority of the scientific community accepts evolution, and you could say I'm just appealing to popularity.  However, we could then examine why these people believe evolution is correct.  I'm not using the popularity of the belief itself as evidence of that belief, which is what you're doing.

One of the biggest problems of an appeal to popularity is when you have two popular, mutually-contradictory beliefs.  Christians believe Jesus was divine in some manner (which varies, depending on the sect).  Muslims believe Jesus was not divine in any way.  Clearly, these cannot both be true.  Logic shows us that at least one of these beliefs must be false.

Was there a Man named Muhammed?
History seems to think so.  There are contemporary records of the life of Mohammed, so I have no trouble believing he existed.  I don't believe all the claims about him, though.  For example, I do believe he was a real person.  I do believe he started the religion of Islam.  I do not believe he was visited by an angel (mainly because I do not believe in angels).  I do not believe he ascended to Heaven on a flying horse (both because I don't believe in a supernatural realm called Heaven, and because horses do not fly).

Quote from: phelix22
Was there a real Jesus?
I believe there were people named Jesus (or whatever the ancient Hebrew version of the name was).  Even if it was an uncommon name, I'm sure it was around.  It's even popular today among some groups.  However, I think it unlikely that the singular Jesus referred to in the Bible was a real person, since there is little to no contemporary evidence of this, and I certainly do not believe that this singular person, if he did exist, actually did the miracles attributed to him in Christian teachings.

Quote from: phelix22
Was there a real Joseph Smith?
Yes.  There are numerous contemporary accounts of his life, including the fact that he was put on trial for defrauding people.  While the outcome of the trial is in doubt (records being lost, etc), it seems probable that he was a simple con man.  I do not believe that the finding of the 'golden plates' ever really happened, and moreover, I highly doubt that Smith believed it either.  He started by fleecing gullible people who believed he could find treasure by looking at a rock in his hat, and progressed to fleecing his followers in much the same manner as modern-day 'God needs your money, praise the lord!' televangelists.

Quote from: phelix22
Can one find enlightenment through meditation?
It depends what you mean.  I believe people can reflect on (ie, think about) things they believe and feel, and come to conclusions.  Meditation might help clear your mind of distracting thoughts, so you can focus on something, and it might very well reduce stress by calming and relaxing you.  There's nothing supernatural about any of this.  For me, I often find that there are things that help me feel more focused or more relaxed, such as listening to music or cuddling with my cat (and yes, there have been studies that indicate pets can help reduce stress).

However, I do not believe that sitting cross-legged and saying 'om' is going to magically open you up to outside forces, or anything like that.

Quote from: phelix22
I understand there is an element of spirituality that people make up, they want to believe, they need an answer, even scientists tap into this idea of there is more knowledge out there than what we know and we must discover it.  But to say, you made all that up in your own mind is just absurd.
I agree.  It's quite clear your beliefs have enough in common with those of other Christians that it wasn't all made up by you.  In fact, most of it was made up long before you were born, in a series of gradual embellishments to make the myth more palatable, or more impressive, or resolve some doctrinal dispute, etc.  Most of what you contribute consists of your rationalizations to explain the various inconsistencies or other problems of your belief system.

Quote from: phelix22
And since we are in an arena that demands proof, what have you to your claim that it is made up?
Try to understand.  You are the one making the positive claims (ie, 'God exists', 'the Bible is true', etc).  Thus, you hold the burden of proof.  In a court of law, the prosecution holds the burden of proof.  They can't just flip that around and say 'Well, the defense claims their client is innocent, so they need to prove it'.  That is called 'shifting the burden of proof'.

Our 'claim', as you put it, is simply our expression of being unconvinced.  You have not supplied evidence, much less convincing evidence, so the only logical conclusion is that your statements are false.  Whether you are intentionally lying or honestly believe the claims you're making has absolutely zero bearing on whether those claims are true or false, and in the absence of evidence, those claims are unsupported.

Quote from: phelix22
Because of Justice.  What is just.  for a criminal to go unpunished?  No.  One must pay the price for one's actions.  In society we base it on what we think is fair.  "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth"  but that is for the action.  What is the consequence for rejecting God?  That would be Hell, according to the scriptures.  What is just is that anyone who chooses to say, there is no God or I don't want your forgiveness, I can do it on my own, I am smarter than you, I am independant and in no need of a savior.  Then that person has made themselves to be the supreme authority in there life.  In essence they have become their own god.  And the penalty is eternal hell, according to the scriptures.  What frustrates me is that we (humans) don't agree with sin.  We blame God for the opportunity, we blame God for our weakness, and we blame God for our judgement.  That just doesn't make sense.
Blah blah, woof woof.  I've asked it before in this post, but it bears repeating: how is infinite punishment for a finite infraction at all fair, or just?  Humans have a finite lifespan.  There is no transgression, however great, that we could do that should merit infinite punishment, but that is what your Bible holds up as 'just' and evidence of the 'goodness' and 'mercy' of your deity.

If God created us and gave us no choice but to follow Him, to believe in Him, we wouldn't be free at all.
True.  However, the Calvinists believe that the chosen cannot resist choosing God.  In other words, he takes away their free will.  They even have scripture to back up this point of view.

Besides, for you to say that people cannot help being sinful is to say they have no choice.  We get punished for doing something we have no choice about.  It's like punishing people for breathing.

It is my job to train up my children in the way that they should go.  I am to represent what a good father does.  In the real world there are consequences.  You steal, you go to jail.  If I don't discipline, if I don't follow God's example in scripture, then I will have to also give account for that when I am judged. 
but underlying all of this is love.  God shows his love when He disciplines, and I love my children and in order to do what is best for them, I discipline them as well.
Does that mean you would have your children stoned to death for disobedience, as the Bible commands?  Would you support the right of other parents to have their children stoned to death?  Why or why not?  Oh, and please don't use the 'that is in the OT, which Jesus did away with', because we know from the NT that Jesus said those laws were still in effect.

Why would you not leave a loaded gun in reach of your child?
  Because of the potential for an accident.  I don't want them in harms way.  Thats the human way right.  Protect them from danger.  But at the same time,  if I see them walking toward an obstacle and I just told them to watch where they are going, I will let them trip and fall.  I count the cost, and if it is worth it, I let them discover for themselves that there are consequences for disobedience.  In either case whether I remove the danger, or am not there when danger presents itself.  The absolute truth is that there are consequences.  The good thing is that I love my children and no matter what they do, I will always love them.  But that will not change the fact that I will discipline them too.
It seems you missed the point.  The tree in question was not some random danger that just happened to be present.  It was something placed in the garden with NO OTHER PURPOSE than to POSE a danger to Adam and Eve.  Just as you would not leave a loaded gun next to your child, a loving deity would not put such a tree in the garden, especially not without putting up some barrier (such as a high fence with a locked gate).

Imagine if a parent were to deliberately leave a loaded gun next to their child while telling the child not to touch it, and then left the room.  Suddenly, there is a gunshot, and the child is either maimed or killed.  Do you think the parent bears any responsibility?  By your own reasoning, the child was told not to, they disobeyed, so the consequences should be borne by them and them alone.  In reality, we see this as criminal negligence, and punish the parent accordingly.  Your refusal to leave such a loaded gun next to your child shows that you're aware of the danger, you know kids sometimes disobey, and so you act accordingly.  God, according to the Bible, did not.  Worse, while you might claim that you didn't know the child would get hurt (having warned them not to touch it), God does not have this excuse.  As an all-knowing being, he knew the result, and put the tree there anyways.

Now, let's look at what the Bible says, hmm?  In the Bible, God warns Adam not to eat from the tree because it will bring death on the day he eats from it.  Now, ignoring for a minute the fact that Eve was not given this restriction (having not even been created at this point), what were the actual consequences?

The first was that neither Adam nor Eve died 'that day' as a result of eating the fruit.  In other words, either GOD LIED, or THE BIBLE GOT IT WRONG.

The second is that 'sin' entered the life of Adam and Eve, and all their descendants.  In other words, WE are being punished for something that SOMEONE ELSE did.  Do you punish your children for things you know that other people, and NOT your children, do?

The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl
Once again, you entirely missed the point.  The reference was to the Bible story about the Jews in Egypt.  Moses demanded freedom, the pharaoh refused.  God 'hardened his heart' to make him say no (in other words, the pharaoh had no choice, as God really did make him do it).  One of the punishments for pharaoh's action was for God to kill all the first-born sons of Egypt.  In other words, not only did the pharaoh have no choice, but God didn't punish him for it; he instead punished a bunch of innocent people.

Now, it's clear to most of us that this is just a story.  I suspect the main purpose was to show God's power over those backward and evil pagan Egyptians who didn't worship the Hebrew deity as they rightly should have, but that's just my opinion.  The fact of the matter is that there is no known contemporary Egyptian record of this mass death of first-born sons.  Don't you think that if EVERY SINGLE FIRST-BORN SON IN AN ENTIRE COUNTRY DIED AT ONCE that it might be, oh I don't know, NEWSWORTHY?  Maybe worth WRITING DOWN IN YOUR PEOPLE'S HISTORY?  There is no evidence of this, and because the claim is so unprecedented, and so extraordinary, and ABSOLUTELY LACKING IN ANY FUCKING EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, we can SAFELY DISMISS THE CLAIM AS FALSE.  The same is true of the other wildly fantastic claims in mythology, like Jesus coming back to life after being dead for three days, or Athena springing fully-formed from Zeus's head after it was split open on account of the mother of all migraines, or Mohammed ascending to Heaven on a magical 'my little pony, flying edition', or any other such nonsense.

Nor can you use the Bible to back up your claims, any more than I can use a book on ancient Greek mythology as evidence that the skies really are held up by the giant Atlas, who Perseus turned to stone.

this has 2 major assumptions, 1 that the child would inevitably hurt themselves.  Not every child who plays with a loaded gun accidentlally injures themself or others. 2 the situation could have been easily avoided.  There are parents who hide guns well, who lock doors, who strenously avoid those situation who have lost their children to accidental gun play.
Ahh, but you're forgetting two things.  First, God is omniscient, so he would know whether or not the child would play with the gun (or eat from the tree).  Second, God is omnipotent, so has the power to make it impossible to play with the gun at all (or eat from the tree), without abrogating free will.  For example, making the gun (or tree) cease to exist will solve the issue.  I expect it would be pretty hard for a child to injure themselves with their parent's gun if neither parent had a gun.

most of the world's top tp's no longer accept tbbt mainly because it does not provide cause and effect.
This is untrue, mainly because that theory has nothing to do with the 'cause' of the universe.  The theory states only that at one point in the distant past, the universe was composed of a singularity that expanded.  That's it.  It does not attempt to say what caused the singularity, or what came before it, or any of that.  Arguing the theory is flawed because it doesn't explain these things is a strawman argument in much the same manner as creationists who argue against evolution because it doesn't explain life's origins.  Here's a clue: IT'S NOT INTENDED TO.

Quote from: WhiteLight
My personal opinion would be too lengthy, it would require a book, suffice it to say that I question the flaws in both areas (science and religion).  However, science does not answer many of the questions, that in my opinion can only be answered with involvement of a superior-being.
So, in your opinion, these questions can only be answered by positing a deity of some sort.  Okay.  Well, since you're hung up on cause and effect, what caused (or created, if you prefer) this deity?

To refute arguments like 'it always existed' or 'having a net energy of zero, it could have spontaneously appeared' as explanations for the origin of the universe, and then use them (or similar arguments) to explain the existence of a deity/creator/whatever is special pleading.

They were not mindless, animals before the fall.  They were given intellect, were given the ability to communicate, to function as humans do, they were perfect in everyway.  What they didn't know was evil.  They had no experience rebelling against God.  The fruit if eaten, would give them the knowledge of that.  They had knowledge of the outcome.  There is no reason to believe they were like a 2 yr old who even though you warn them, or not capable of making a good decision and leaving the gun alone.  That is why your analogy breaks down, and why my analogy had nothing to do with the fall.
Actually, before they ate from the tree, they had virtually no knowledge whatsoever.  Thus, while Adam may have known he was told not to eat from the tree, he wouldn't have understood that it was 'wrong' to do so.  Besides, it's reasonable to conclude that the serpent was also placed there by God, right?  Thus, if the serpent (which, incidentally, told the truth where God lied) said it was okay, what cause did Adam have to doubt the serpent's words?

Once again, I must point out that Eve was not given the same instruction as Adam, and punishing all humanity for the transgression of one or two of their descendants is certainly not good, fair, or just by any measure, save the warped measure of believers in Biblegod.

Quote from: phelix22
Lets assume that God does know what could be done to prevent it, how to design it so that it isn't even necessary, and let's assume another trait of God, that he doesn't lie
The only problem with that assumption (beyond that it presupposes that God really exists, of course) is that the Bible clearly depicts God lying to Adam about the tree and the consequences for eating from it.

It teaches that what we do doesn't just effect us, it effects our neighbors.  We can't claim innocence just because we didn't pull the trigger so to speak.  It stands true today in america, if you are with the guys who rob a store and kill the employee, you will be charged for murder.
What if you're not born until thousands of years after the robbery/murder?  Still think it's fair to be punished for it?  Biblegod evidently thinks so.

Heaven is something that is beyond words, or comprehension.
Beyond comprehension is an apt descriptor.  Think about it for a minute: if there is free will in Heaven, then it is possible to sin (ie, make the 'wrong' choice).  If Heaven is to be without sin, there can be no free will.  This means one of three things:  1) A sin-free Heaven exists, but there is no free will there.  2) Heaven exists, free will exists there, and given the sinful nature of humanity, will be full of sin if anybody besides God is allowed in.  3) Heaven does not exist at all.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question.  If I create an intelligent, self-aware machine, program this machine, and then set it loose to do its own thing, am I responsible if it hurts someone?  Why or why not?

It takes a pretty arrogant person to claim they have enough understanding of how everything works, and how everything God has done has happened to say whether or not it was a righteous thing or not.  I don't have it, and I don't believe any human does.
By that reasoning, since we cannot judge right and wrong, why put murderers, rapists, and thieves in jail?  After all, we don't know what God's plan for these people is, or whether their actions were righteous, so let's just leave them on the street.
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #340 on: November 08, 2010, 11:07:21 AM »
That is God's rule. 

Exactly.  So if she's being punished for not doing what you say, you're punishing her for sinning.


I don't know how else to say it.  she is being punished for the rule that I set up and she breaks.  That is the reason I punish her.  The reason she is guilty of sin, is because God's law says to obey your parents, to honor your father and mother.  While she steals a cookie from the cookie jar she may receive a spanking or time out, in God's eyes she has sinned and needs forgiven.

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #341 on: November 08, 2010, 11:11:26 AM »
I didn't say king james was wrong or that NASB was right, I just pointed out that on some of the verses listed there were inconsistencies in translation.
But if there are inconsistencies in translation between one bible and another, one must be correct and one must be wrong.  Or both could be wrong.  How are we to know which one is correct, or if either of them are correct?

That is where an understanding of the original greek and hebrew and aramaic comes in.  Commentaries and biblical scholars can help, as well as additional discoveries, and additional investigation and research.  In the end, most translations are agreed upon, but in our relative society, there will always be those who will use the translation that best fits their argument.  I don't have the luxury of knowing the original languages, so I don't get to choose which works best. But I do know that sometimes the argument may center on a translation and not on the actual text.

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #342 on: November 08, 2010, 11:28:15 AM »
again, Deut. 20:18 explains that they were to do this because the people were teaching the Isrealites to do detestable things which they did for their gods.  causing Israel to sin against God.  

The Midianites were causing the hebrews to sin?  You realize you are literally blaming the rape victim for being raped? 

You realize I am not blaming anyone, I am just stating what the bible says.  You want to claim that God teaches to simply rape and pillage and plunder, I argue that from the text, the teaching isn't that we should rape, pillage, or plunder, but that God used Israel to carryout His judgement on those people for what was lined out in Deut 20:18.  It's like saying our country teaches it's ok to murder, when in reality, it is illegal.  But some states can execute criminals, and we can shoot enemies of our country in war time situations.  If we applied your claims about the bible to the constitution, you would have to say America teaches it to be ok to murder.  And that is equally not true.
 

How does this support this behavior.  It says, "because he violated her", is it not a widely accepted belief that violations are disobeying the rules?
 

That is a stretch.  Violating a person is a common polite euphemism for "rape".
exactly, my point.  rape is not being endorsed here, it is depicted as a violation of a person.  If a man does this he must pay the price.  Not exactly teaching it is ok to rape.

If everyone is treated with fairness, dignity and respect, would slavery carry with it the negative connotation it does in today's society.

Your premise is preposterous.  Owning people as property is the polar opposite of treating them with fairness, dignity and respect.  It is the denial of those things.  It is a contradiction in terms to say you treat your slave fairly, respectfully and with dignity. 

Your moral compass is fucked, dude.  Quit defending these obviously immoral ideas and acts.  Just come out and admit this s**t appals you because it is appalling.

 




nice dodge.  You say it can't be done.  But yet, in service in the military you sign your own life away.  You don't decide where you live, what you will eat, what you will do.  Should you exercise your freedom to disobey, you will be thrown in jail, but not released.  It is modern day slavery, yet men and women sign up daily.  Why?  Patriotism?  How could they willingly sign up for such appauling immoral ideas and acts?  Funny how we don't hear any criticism when we get a new day to sit and say what we want because we still have freedom of speech, a right protected by these slaves.  You may say, they get paid, but few will disagree that the price they pay is far greater than any monetary reimbursement they may receive from a paycheck.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #343 on: November 08, 2010, 12:47:21 PM »
You realize I am not blaming anyone, I am just stating what the bible says. 

That is your argument, where ever you are getting it from.  It is how you are excusing the obviously immoral actions of the hebrews.  "The midianites got what they deserved because they were making the poor, innocent hebrews sin."  Come on. 


You want to claim that God teaches to simply rape and pillage and plunder,

That was not my argument. You must have confused me with someone else. I agree that yhwh does not explicity endorse wanton rape, murder and theft.  However, yhwh does endorse and demand rape, murder and theft in a more specific way. And those ways are always "enemies" of the hebrews.  This all adds up to a general xenophobia and dehumanization of the Other in hebrew culture.  That also translated to xian culture.  That may be part and parcel of being human, but that does not make it good or moral policy.

but that God used Israel to carryout His judgement on those people for what was lined out in Deut 20:18. 

bold mine.  I already pointed out how fishy this is.  First, why was an omnimax deity using people to do a job it could do itself?  Maybe because it couldn't?  Secondly, it sounds to me like a punishment of the hebrews, though to a lesser extent.  Imagine guy much more powerful than you demands you go into a neighboring town, kill all the men, women and children and rape any girls who are virgins.  Sound like a good time to you?  Or does that sound awful?  What conclusions would you come to about this person?

It's like saying our country teaches it's ok to murder, ...

Wrong argument. 

exactly, my point. 

Perhaps I misread the context of this one. 

nice dodge. 

Dodge?  In what way did I dodge?

But yet, in service in the military you sign your own life away. 

Military service is not slavery.  There are strict rules and their freedoms are somewhat curtailed, but they are not property.  That is the big difference.  I have seen it argued by xians that biblical slavery was more like being a family member or an indentured servant.  But that is not what slavery is.  Slavery is owning other people as property. 

I would agree, there is a spectrum of... property? servitude?  I don't know what the right word is.  On one end is slavery.  On the other is...not slavery. The more rules you add, the more rights and dignities you add, the further you get from slavery.  I would say the hebrew version of slavery was pretty clearly slavery.  I would also say modern military service, at least in the US, is on the opposite end of that spectrum.

The people who translated the bible could have used any other word, but they did not.  They chose the word "slave".  And now you and a zillion other xians want to argue that the bible really meant something else.  If that is so, why did the translators not use a different word?   
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #344 on: November 08, 2010, 12:58:00 PM »
That is God's rule. 

Exactly.  So if she's being punished for not doing what you say, you're punishing her for sinning.


I don't know how else to say it.  she is being punished for the rule that I set up and she breaks.  That is the reason I punish her.  The reason she is guilty of sin, is because God's law says to obey your parents, to honor your father and mother.  While she steals a cookie from the cookie jar she may receive a spanking or time out, in God's eyes she has sinned and needs forgiven.

Which is god's decree.  He said that she has to follow her parents, he was the one who laid down that law over all humanity.  If she does not do as you say then she is sinning.

If god had commanded that children should not listen to their parents because their parents are fallible, would you punsh her for not doing what you say?
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #345 on: November 08, 2010, 01:03:29 PM »
I didn't say king james was wrong or that NASB was right, I just pointed out that on some of the verses listed there were inconsistencies in translation.
But if there are inconsistencies in translation between one bible and another, one must be correct and one must be wrong.  Or both could be wrong.  How are we to know which one is correct, or if either of them are correct?

That is where an understanding of the original greek and hebrew and aramaic comes in. 
But you don't follow the original text.  Even if you did, you have no way of verifying that it is the original text.  That could have been mistranslated also.

Quote
Commentaries and biblical scholars can help, as well as additional discoveries, and additional investigation and research.
But those are the same guys who can't agree on how to translate, so this is circular.

Quote
In the end, most translations are agreed upon, but in our relative society, there will always be those who will use the translation that best fits their argument.
 Which is exactly the point.  You choose to follow a particular interpretation, so how do you know it's the right one?  You can't.


Quote
I don't have the luxury of knowing the original languages, so I don't get to choose which works best. But I do know that sometimes the argument may center on a translation and not on the actual text.
Which proves my point entirely.  You don't know, you can't know, so you take your pick from what's available.  How do you know that you've chosen the right interpretation?  How do you know that ANY of them are correct?
I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #346 on: November 08, 2010, 02:08:26 PM »
That is where an understanding of the original greek and hebrew and aramaic comes in.  Commentaries and biblical scholars can help, as well as additional discoveries, and additional investigation and research. 

Interesting.  One wonders why a god that  - apparently - wants a relationship with all of us, wants us all to be saved.....would deliberately make it so that his holy book would not be able to be read correctly by the vast majority of the world.

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #347 on: November 08, 2010, 03:41:24 PM »
It is written: " 'As surely as I live,' says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.' "
Romans 14:11
In case you haven't figured it out, just because something is written (in the Bible or elsewhere) doesn't necessarily make it so.  The Bible also has God telling Adam that if he eats from the tree, he will surely die that day, and then the Bible goes on to show he didn't die that day.  Thus, either the Bible is WRONG, or God is a PROVEN LIAR.
[/quote] This is a misquote, the bible did not say they would die that day, it just says, "you must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die."  This does not prove God is a liar, in fact, since adam and eve did die, it proves God didn't lie about that.

Personally, I think it's usually just a way for them to feel superior over others.  We all break Biblegod's rules, but they are the chosen ones who get to do it with impunity, because Jebus told them so.  The rules don't apply to them, because they're better than us.  It's the same sort of attitude that drives racism, sexism, and most (all?) other forms of bigotry.
do your comtemporaries in here agree with you, it is just a way for us to feel superior to others?  I mean, first of all, if we were the chosen one's wouldn't we feel a debt to those who weren't but the bible says forgiveness is for everyone.  That Christ died for the sins of the world, not just the chosen.  The rules do apply, we are not just given a do as you please card, but if one is truly a Christian, then they are dedicated to the teachings of Jesus and the apostles which includes loving others, putting others before yourself, and obedience to all the teachings and commands of God.  That God loves everyone of every race color or creed, and we are to love everyone the same, and to bless our enemies.  How does that lead to sexism and bigotry?  I think you got it all wrong about Christians, but I don't blame you, looking at most people of faith today, there is not alot of difference in how they live from those who claim to not believe.

Now, let's consider what the usual punishment is for the rest of us.  They get damned to an eternity of torture.  What the f**k?!?  Jesus, taking on the sins for BILLIONS OF PEOPLE, gets a few days of unpleasantness, whereas anyone else gets an eternity...?  If he's taking on the punishment for us, it should be the whole thing.  Since Jesus == God under most brands of Christianity, I guess we can conclude that God didn't have the testicular fortitude to tough it out in the same manner he expects us lowly mortals to, huh?

Can you please explain to me how this makes any sense whatsoever?
sure.  He was innocent.  He was God.  He was crucified by His beloved people and by His own creation.  The people He came to show mercy to, gave him the sentence of Death.  And on the cross he bore the sins of everyone for all time.  His blood shed, the bibe teaches, was for the forgiveness of God to all who believe.  The wrath for rejecting this forgiveness is what will receive eternal Hell.  If we sin, and we turn to God, he forgives us and we face no eternal penalty.  How is that so terrible.  It seems to me you haven't measured what the bible teaches was the meaning and pain of the Cross, nor that the bible teaches that Hell and eternal torture was created for the devil and the 1/3 of heaven who followed him.  Anyone else is going there because of their rejection of God, according what the Bible says.

Quote from: phelix22
It's not because I believe in God that i still get to do bad things, it is just a fact of life, that humans are not able to be perfect.  That doesn't excuse it, there is no loophole, no sin goes unpunished.  And if this God was such a bad God, then why make forgiveness available to anyone?
Let's say I have a dog, and I lock it in the house all day.  It cannot help itself, and it shits all over the carpet.  Despite the fact that it's not the dog's fault (it couldn't go outside), I come home and beat the dog severely for being bad.  If I then stop beating the dog, is this an example of 'perfect goodness'?[/quote] huh?  I don't follow your analogy?

Look at Christian doctrine.  We're all sinners, because a) we absorb the 'taint' of an act of disobedience from distant ancestors (does this sound fair to you?), and b) it's in our nature anyways.  Now, consider that God knew it's how we'd turn out (being omniscient), and deliberately created us this way anyways, when it was in his power to create us without this flaw that we have zero control over.  Thus, the only rational conclusion (assuming God exists) is that he wants us to be flawed, so he can punish us for it.  So what if he were to throw us a bone and let a few of us off the hook?  He's still deliberately dooming the vast majority of us to eternal torment.  Does this sound like a MORALLY GOOD being to you?
 If what you say were true, it would not be a morally good being, but you have distorted several key attributes of God that are not consistent with what the bible teaches.  We do not die and get eternal torture just because we were born into sin.  2 because we have a sin nature we also are not in a condition of zero control.  That is the whole point.  If we have zero control then we have no freewill.  But we do have control.  We choose what we do and we were created with the ability to choose because we were created free.  Thats why the bible doesn't say, and Eve saw the fruit and being forced by God to eat it, did eat and cause all hell to break loose.  The freedom to choose also is not a flaw.  There is nothing in the bible that is consistent with God wanting us to be flawed and spend eternity in Hell.  Why spend thousands of years to write a book that points people to a way of being forgiven and given a second chance to be eternally unflawed?  

Quote from: phelix22
It was not God who condemned us, it was God who condemned sin according to scripture.
See above.  If God deliberately designed us to sin, and then condemns sinning, the distinction is moot, no?  It's logically equivalent to condemning us directly.  According to Christian doctrine, we get a 'DAMNED TO HELL' stamp on us at (or even before) birth.
this is the problem with the idea that God deliberately designed us to sin.  He didn't.  He designed us to choose Him over anything else.  If he did, then he would not be holy, righteous, and would not be what Christians call the one true God.

Quote from: phelix22
Also accordingly it says, if anyone believes he is not condemned but for those who reject him they are condemned already.
In other words, all those people who are born into non-Christian societies, who don't get an opportunity to believe (because they never hear the teachings) get condemned for not believing.  More of your deity's 'perfect goodness'.
that would be true if no one could look around and see how complex even the simpliest form of life is, now I am aware that many scientists and intellectuals contend it is all by random chance, but that is a faith that I find incomprehensible.  If God truly didn't reveal himself to humanity then yes it would be wrong for him to hold us to standards we were unaware of.  But I believe He has.   and as a side note here, when I capitolize the pronoun it is out of respect to whom I hold in such high regard that even in grammar I place Him higher than just another personal pronoun.

Quote from: phelix22
pop culture says God condemns us for being us.  Truth of scripture says, sin is the reason for condemnation, not humanity.  If God said all humans are condemned, then Jesus would have been as well.
See above about Jesus getting preferential treatment to the rest of us.

Quote from: phelix22
And if He says,"my bad, all is forgiven", without punishing sin, then he is not a just God, nor a fair God.  my little four year old wants to hit her sister, and then not get in trouble, but if I am a good parent I will discipline her and teach her there are consequences for bad behavior.
What if it's something that a four year old cannot help, such as wetting the bed at night, or not pronouncing a word right?  What about punishing her for not being born a boy?  Do those sorts of things sound fair?  Now imagine the punishment is eternal suffering.  How can any finite transgression (whether or not it is the offender's fault) merit infinite punishment?
 What do you consider a finite transgression.  What would be the one thing that would deserve eternal seperation from a holy and pure God.  Would be impurity, would it be placing and worshipping other gods, or no gods, would it be a life of rejection and betrayal?  Why always resort to a baby who doesn't know any better, do you really think we as humans can't tell right from wrong?  Why is it that in societies from across the globe without knowledge of scriptures or the enlightenment, when discovered and studied all have a tribal set of rules and what is acceptable and not.  Why is stealing shared as an evil in almost all societies, why is giving to someone who is in need looked at as kind and compassionate in most societies.  If we are like our ancestors, we do have the ability to know better.


As far as the BC/AD system goes, do you really suppose they stamped their coins with '150 BC' before Jesus came along?  It was a retroactive system imposed by the church that held overwhelming power in Europe at the time, and as such, attests to nothing more than the fact the church held this power.
and how could a bunch of kooks following a bunch of myths become so powerful as to rule the world enough to change our language and calendar, if it is so blantantly obvious how stupid and appauling it is to believe in God?  


Quote from: phelix22
I don't know how many literary scholars we have in here, I know there are many who can make a quick quote to a skeptic, and a quick note to watch some educated man state criticism of the bible and its credibility.  the thing is you really have to get way out there to find those who believe there is no man named Jesus, no Jew who lived around 4bc to 29ad, who had a following of 12 men and a few hundred disciples and who's believers have persisted to follow some 2000 years later.
Not so much, actually.  The view that Jesus was a historical person, and that there is evidence of this, is found primarily among Christians.  Even non-Christians who believe Jesus existed tend to use religious sources (like Muslims do).  There is little to no contemporary physical evidence of the life of Jesus, or any of the grand events.  Remember, the gospels were written decades (at least!) after Jesus supposedly died.[/quote] however religious sources have proven to be quite a trustworthy source.



« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 03:43:25 PM by phelix22 »