Author Topic: Do they really believe?  (Read 15470 times)

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #290 on: November 03, 2010, 12:56:32 PM »
PP, I'm sorry but I think I'm going to have to turn you down and ask Velkyn to marry me instead. I'm sure you'll find yourself another husband just as good as me in time.

(I also think I'm going to drop this series jokes around about now because it's getting too weird)
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #291 on: November 03, 2010, 01:16:41 PM »
I'm flattered, Al :) 
This is probably the most well articulated challenge I have ever heard, and I appreciate it more than you will know.  You are right on very many levels, Christians should regard the bible as THE WORD OF GOD and as the most important thing by an infinite factor, but God doesn't want the bible to be worshiped more than him, Commandment 1 of the "ten commandments"  and when Jesus was asked about the greatest command it was to Love God and the second is as the first to love others.
No one said this or even alluded to it. Again with trying to move the goalposts.  It would be amazing if you could give a straight answer to a question.
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The pharisees turned worship into a list of do's and don'ts, and failed to protect the relationship aspect of worship.
Yep, adn most, if not all, Christians we have seen make it a list of dos and don'ts too but they pick and choose which are the do's and don't dependent on their convenience. 

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The bible teaches that we are to live not free from the law but under a new covenant one of Grace.
  Not that we can disregard the law, but one focused on following Jesus example.  He healed on the sabbath, which the pharisees considered work as was picking some grain and eating it, But the problem isn't are we living every word of the mosaic law but have we been forgiven. My eternal destination doesn't depend on how well I obey all the rules, if it did, no one would get in.  But according to the scriptures it depends on my faith in Jesus.  That is why i don't have all the levitical law memorized or am thoroughly square on every jot and tittle.  It doesn't excuse it, and I do and am continually studying to show myself approved, but I am young and have lots to go.[/
The bible doesn't say this at all. It says that the law are to be followed until the earth ends.  Has it?  If no one can follow the rules why did God put them in place saying that if you do this, you'll be his chosen people?  Why did he wait for supposed thousands of years before changing his mind and decideing that killing himself for himself was the "real" way to be saved?  Jesus said one must have faith in him and one must follow the laws as "intended" the first instance of someone claiming to know what God "really" meant, if Jesus existed at all.
   

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #292 on: November 03, 2010, 01:45:10 PM »
In addition to what Velkyn said, I would also add that there are many ways listed in the bible in which one is saved. And most of them require more than just believing in Cosmic Sugar Daddy.

"Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17

"For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works." Matthew 16:27

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?" James 2:14

"When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness ... and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul." Ezekiel 18:27

"Whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock. " Matthew 7:24

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matthew 5:48

It seems that it takes a lot more than just having faith to be saved. There are requirements for salvation that cover just about every aspect of human action. From being obedient to doing god deeds, to drinking 'Jesus water'. In fact I'm right now looking at about eighty biblical lines that describe how to be saved, and do you want to know how many of them say you only need faith? Come on, take a guess. Oh wait, I forgot that you're a biblical authority, 'guess' is a poor choice of words. I mean 'use your vast knowledge of the bible attained from over 100 hours of masters level courses in bible books and theology. Your fourteen years of vocational ministry and your teaching of weekly lessons three, sometimes four times a week to accurately assess how many of those salvation verses back up your ideas'.

Ooooh, and while we're at it how about guessing how many verses say that we have no control over whether we end up in hell or not and god just chooses who he wants to go hell or heaven. Oops, sorry, I used that word 'guess' again.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #293 on: November 03, 2010, 01:59:26 PM »
Because this would be THE WORD OF GOD - THE most important thing in existence by an infinte factor.  I would have learned it by heart and would follow it to the last comma in every aspect of my life, with never a single slip or mistake, because it would mean everything.  But not one "Christian" we have had here ever seems to have done so.  And so I say again - they do not really believe.

Christians should regard the bible as THE WORD OF GOD and as the most important thing by an infinite factor, but God doesn't want the bible to be worshiped more than him, Commandment 1 of the "ten commandments"  and when Jesus was asked about the greatest command it was to Love God and the second is as the first to love others.  ....  The bible teaches that we are to live not free from the law but under a new covenant one of Grace.  Not that we can disregard the law, but one focused on following Jesus example.  .....

Thing is, I wasn't exclusively talking about Mosaic law, but about every single part.  You're saying here that you have taken a message from the Bible that tells you how to be saved....but at the same time you confess you are NOT square on every single thing within it.  

This makes me think two things.

Fisrtly - and the subject of the OP - is that YOU DON'T BELIEVE: the part of my post you ignored.  If you REALLY thought god existed, you wouldn't be here right now: you'd be going over and over the Bible until you were absolutely, 100% positive you knew it inside out and back to front - and it would mean that you could answer any question we came up with in an internally consistent and complete manner.  To be unable to do that means there are parts - huge parts perhaps?  you can't say for sure - that you don't fully understand.  And if there is the remotest chance that that misunderstanding could be the one small thing that stands between you and eternal suffering or salvation....how could you not be studying every second of every waking moment......

....IF you truly believed.  

And secondly...since you don't have that 100% in-and-out knowledge...

....how DARE you come here and attempt to discuss what you THINK it all means???  How dare you try to argue with us that your flawed understanding is correct - when your lack of knowledge could induce us to follow you down the WRONG pathway?

Phelix, we're talking the equivalent of choosing the one wire out of thousands that will defuse the bomb.  You may have narrowed it down to one out of a dozen or so possibles, but you CANNOT be completely sure given your gaps in our knowledge.  And yet you are content to snip that one wire when it may be another one in that dozen - which says to me you don't really believe in the bomb.

And what's worse, you are ssuring us that the wire you chose is the right one - when you're not in a position to be absolutely sure.  And frankly, that strikes me as an irresponsible and frankly evil thing to do.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Dante

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #294 on: November 03, 2010, 02:03:01 PM »

Edit: Actually I worded that wrong. God isn't a rapist <snip

Ummm...did Mary consent to be impregnated by god, with god?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #295 on: November 03, 2010, 02:05:17 PM »

Edit: Actually I worded that wrong. God isn't a rapist <snip

Ummm...did Mary consent to be impregnated by god, with god?

Good point, I forgot about Mary. Ok so god has one rape under his belt. Not nearly as many as some of his biblical followers do, but at least he practices what he preaches.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #296 on: November 03, 2010, 02:33:19 PM »
how can you clearly show if someone has read enough to be an authority, i can understand that testing can show cognition and comprehension of a subject, interviews can help show the depth of knowledge over a subject, but how can a few posts on a thread clearly show that I haven't read the bible enough to be an authority.  with over 100 hours of masters level courses in bible books and theology, I have the credentials to be an authority, with 14 years in vocational ministry i have the authority, and by my teaching weekly 3 lessons and sometimes 4, I have the experience to claim that I am an authority on scripture, I am not a leading authority, nor do I like to claim to be anything, I don't like bragging, but I don't know of any other way to argue that i clearly have read enough to be an authority.

It may just be a honest mistake, but I honestly am wondering if phel has actually read the bible, front to back, with nothing "helping" him understand waht God "really" meant.    Claiming you've taken courses, that you've taught weekly lessons (which might be canned, might not).  doesn't indicate that you are an authority but that you've only been in a seat and taught what you've been taught.  I am not an "authority" in geology though I have a BS degree in it.  I simply haven't the above and beyond education that an authority e.g. an expert would have. I have a general education in geology but to be an expert would indicate that I have done independent research and am an acknowledged leading figure in the field.   
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #297 on: November 03, 2010, 02:57:36 PM »
This thread's lost its way, too, so it also goes to the Pit.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #298 on: November 03, 2010, 03:07:27 PM »
Amazing but typical-- a Christian who comes here to lecture us on what to believe about god, life and the universe, but doesn't even have the level of understanding of the bible that we do. Many of us also went to bible study, etc, but decided not to just accept the party line when it didn't make sense. I was the one who asked questions until I was told, "There are some things man was not meant to know..." And that only told me that I had to look for my answers elsewhere.

We are like the annoyingly bright student who asks questions that the teacher can't answer. And who goes out and finds out what they need to know. Most of these religious folks are like the kid who sleeps through the lectures and copies the answers from the back of the book. And then forgets everything after the exam. Which of these is more serious about learning?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #299 on: November 03, 2010, 06:04:42 PM »
I said that you have rejected God - and I have said that is a choice you make. 

You little twerp. Atheists have NOT rejected god. Yours or any others. Get that through your thick skull. I know it's important to pretend that we are all against you because we want to sin, etc. I know it's important that you pretend we are horrid people unable to accept jc as our good buddy. But as long as you insist on keeping yourself this ignorant about reality, I guess you're just going to have to adapt to sounding stupid about nearly everything you say.

I'm not saying that you are stupid. I'm just saying that you're emulating that condition admirably.


And people say I repeat the same old cliches of Christians. I have never said that Athiests are all against Christians.  Nor have I have I said that Atheists all want to sin. I do not have to pretend that you are horrid people.

It is nice to see you are still sensitive enough about these things to get het up.

From my position athiests have rejected God. I accept that athiests dont accept this and indeed reject its very assertion. What else would they expect to do?  It is my view that athiests are just normal people like the rest of society - no worse and no better than anyone else.


Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #300 on: November 03, 2010, 06:38:05 PM »
And you STILL are not addressing my point - indeed, your response is STILL carrying the same contradictions.

"...the only way out of it for me was for someone else from myself to do something to help set me free.  I could not do it myself..." 
"God in this case determines for whatever reason to give me faith "
"I did not choose God - I could not choose God. I was dead in sin."

To summarise: it was impossible for you to repent/find god/stop sinning on your own.  It required god to intervene and give you belief.

But THEN you try to say:

"You reject God - well I call that sin - but that is your choice"

Sorry, but this directly contradicts what you said before!!!

"You can't choose god" you say, but also "you will be damned because you did not choose god".

I'll say it again slowly:

If we cannot believe in and accept god without god FIRST doing something to MAKE us believe.....
Then if god does NOT take that first action, we will NEVER believe - and so NEVER be saved.....
Then it is therefore down to god's choices - and god's alone - whether we become saved.

Seriously - do you not see the huge contradiction in what you are saying?
....Again I thank you for your conversation.

Sorry, but I cannot do the same, since you seem to be choosing NOT to have a conversation with me.  You are NOT answering my points.

YOU are the one who said "I did not choose God - I could not choose God" - YOU said it was impossible for you to choose god without god's assistance.  So your god had to make the first move - without god doing that (if what you say is correct), you would have been literally unable to choose him.

Now, if you want to go back on that - to say that in all cases, WITHOUT prior action from god, that it IS possible to choose him - then that's fine.  It would, of course, mean you having to change most of the facts and most of the point of your testimony, but it would at least make your words coherent and non-contradictory.  Your choice.

Just to be crystal clear.  You said:
"I did not choose God - I could not choose God"
and you also said
"You reject God.....that is your choice"

THOSE TWO STATEMENTS ARE CONTRADICTORY.  Please explain, if it is impossible to choose to accept god, how in any way it can be a "choice" to reject? 

With me and god, it is accept or reject.  You say it is impossible for me to accept on my own.  So how is having only a single possible option remaining in any way a "choice"?

Ok. Let my try this again. 

I think I see your delemma - it is the notion of choice when there appears to be only one option.

It is my view that ALL men (In Adam) are sinful and therefore dead in sin and blind to God. (No choice)
It is my view that man cannot choose God (unless God reveals himself to him). (No choice)
It is my view in that not choosing God - (because he is dead in sin and blind) man is choosing death. (No choice)

I can see where I am mistaken. Thank you for pointing that out to me. 

Conclusion is that man cannot by themselves choose God. 

Hence sinful man is doomed to death in eternal Hell unless God reveals himself to them. 

But does this mean that man - because he has no choice to choose God - is therefore not responsible for his actions and sinful life?

I say that man is responsible.  Even though man is unable to choose God -does not mean that he is therefore ignorant of what God's standards are.  Eg - most people on this site have not rejected God per se - they dont believe in him - but they cannot say they have not read the Scriptures - of Christianity or the other relevatory books.     They certainly cannot say that they are ignorant of what is expected - true there are varients and versions - Paul puts it this way "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling". 

 

Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #301 on: November 03, 2010, 06:41:59 PM »
bm

Edit: Even if I know TS soon will have sudden "out of town business to attend to" never to return.
 

Actually in Australia - Victoria we had a long weekend and I took my children camping from Friday until Tuesday. I am self employed - and am quite busy.  I am not always handy to a computer.  and lead quite a busy life. Sometimes I will disapear for weeks - but then I will return.

so thank you for your confidence. ;D

Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #302 on: November 03, 2010, 06:54:58 PM »
You really should stop judging me by your own standards. And as for waffle - that last paragraph is a good example of one. Thinking my thoughts for me and commenting on my thoughts that you have thought for me. lol.

Quite right.  Telling other people what they do, or do not think; what they would, or would not think, is well out of order.

If God appeared before you right now - you would not believe. If he turned you into a goldfish - you would not believe.

Oops.  Still, I'll overlook that such a good Christian is incapable of practicing what he preaches to actually address this point.

If God appeared before you right now - you would not believe. If he turned you into a goldfish - you would not believe.

You are wrong.  Totally, 100% wrong.  If your god appeared in front of me, and turned me into a goldfish, I'd believe.  Full stop, no question.  Actual direct evidence of a god?  Sure - that would be more than enough for me.  It's a shame that - despite apparently wanting a relationship with all of us and wanting us to be saved - your god doesn't do it.  Knowing everything, he MUST know that that level is all that would convince me....so I can only conclude that (since he doesn't do it), he doesn't WANT me to be convinced.

However, you ARE right in this:
If I were to provide a foolproof comprehensive logical arguement for the existence of God - you would dish out on it.

I would indeed.  Because, quite frankly, I have already seen a far better "logical proof" of Allah that any I have seen for Christ.  It had holes in it, sure (it was Afadly's guys), but it was still waaay better than any I had seen for Jesus.  But logical proofs - as I am SURE you know - are ONLY as good as the premises and axioms on which they stand.  Which means that logical proofs stand or fall for truth (as opposed to validity) on the evidential bedrocks on which it stands.  And so any "logical proof" you care to bring must be supported on concrete and undeniable evidence.

Got any of that?

Hello


Firstly you are correct I did not practice what I preached.  I apologise to you for doing so. I should not assume to tell you what you think. I certainly do not know you and I cannot read your mind and it embarrasses me that I did so quickly after telling you.

I must say that I do disagree with the notion that you would believe such direct evidence of God appearing before you and turning you into a gold fish - apart from the difficulty of whether a gold fish can remember for more than 3 seconds - you must have a notion of what God is that is quite distinct from something else that has the power to turn people into goldfish.  But before I fall into the trap again of telling you what to think - I state this my own opinion based upon what I believe the bible tells me and my own experience of other people.

As I said above I dont see any need to prove God to you or to anyone. I accept you might have a need - but I dont.

Offline Dante

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #303 on: November 03, 2010, 07:37:01 PM »
Based on your personal experiences, god turning people into fish doesn't sway their beliefs? Mmmkay.

 You got nuthin. No logic, obviously no proof, and likely a fairly shaky belief, methinks.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline rev45

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #304 on: November 03, 2010, 07:51:41 PM »
As I said above I dont see any need to prove God to you or to anyone. I accept you might have a need - but I dont.
Does this mean The Great Commission is only a metaphor or was it only for the disciples of Jesus?
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Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #305 on: November 03, 2010, 07:53:27 PM »
I’ll have to say that I like how you call the wholesale killing of other Christians a “family spat”.  Wow, I sure dont’ want to live in your family. Rather than exposing even more of your nosense, I’m going to let this stand on its own as a monument to Christians who come here.  

Gee I dont know about you - but there have not been to many people killed in my church recently. Or even in the last century. But I am not denying that  spats between the RC and the Protestant church have resulted in the deaths of many many people over the history of the church. Of course how much can be directly related to church theology or to the cultural acceptance of the time is another question. I say there is a true church - this however does not go by the name of presbyterian or baptist or anglican or charismatic. It does however have the common doctrines of the Trinity - and of the death and resurrection of Christ.  In many places if not most places - the churches of all denominations work together quite closely. Sometimes people get heated up about particular doctrines - eg the recent Anglican split oveer gay marriages has causes serious divisions in that church -

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And this
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Again you have just demonstrated your ignorance wrt to Calvinism.  Presbyterians dont believe that being one of the elect gives them a get out of jail free card.  If you recall your days of TULIP you would recall the fifth point which emphasises perseverence - he who perseveres to the end will be saved. just because someone thinks that they are of the elect does not mean anything - it is by their fruits you will know them.
Yep, I do know TULIP, and I dont’ recall anything like you’ve claimed. I do recall basically this, which is a nice summation
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You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.
http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip  Sure seems like a get out of jail free card.

I have read your link and note that is said to be written by a calvinist.  My view is that he is attempting to provide a way of communicating the essential truthes of the Reformed theology and does so in an interesting way.  My understanding is that which I have articulated above - using the very words within the TULIP itself - PERSEVERENCE of the SAINTS. The Saints have to persevere - this is the essence of that doctrine and is part of the TULIP which provides the Christian with the humility to know that Salvation belongs to God not to mankind. I dont disagree with the verses used - but in context Jesus also says you will know them by their fruits. The doctrine of election is a doctrine that provides assurance to Christians that they do not have to earn their salvation - but the final doctrines is there to ensure that Christians do not take their own election as a right.  In any event there are many websites and books which teach what I have articulated.

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You claim that Baptists worship with other Christians.  Really? Then why are there Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, etc?  If you’re all one big happy family, why the different buildings?  

We worship with other churches because we accept that we are all Christians and saved by faith in Christ. What is so hard to understand about that? The fact that we use different buildings serves lots of different purposes - firstly within our denominations we have different backgrounds and practices - some baptise in a font some use a baptismal.  Within the parametres of Christian thinking - there is also freedom and liberty. Whilst I may disagree with the arminian doctrine of free will - I have no issue with worshiping God with arminians. When I visit my mother - I always attend at the Baptist Church - and she always attends with me at the Presbyterian church when she visits with me.

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Wow, TS, you’re psychic?  My you must make lots of money on how you can read minds.  Hilarious when you again try to lie about atheists.  I do wonder have you read your bible? You know, the “shall not bear false witness” and Romans 3 where it says that people who think they are lying “for” Christ aren’t welcome at all to God?
 

fair enough - I cannot read your mind and I should not be assuming to know you - but we all use our own experiences. and funnily enough - you reacted in a similar manner to what i expected. I deny that I lied.

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You say that “God made me believe” and then you want to say “It’s a choice.”  Then you say that you “cannot choose to leave this view”.  How can it be a choice if you *cannot* choose? Please explain that.
you answered this with
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I am  just stating what I believe.  You ask a question and I attempt to answer it.
I know. It’s hilarious. You contradict yourself and you think this is okay.  
And of course, when you claim that I “waffle” you first provide no evidence and then when requested you provide this
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And as for waffle - that last paragraph is a good example of one. Thinking my thoughts for me and commenting on my thoughts that you have thought for me.
Ummm, how is this waffling? Do you even know the meaning of the term?  Evidently not, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/waffle?show=1&t=1288363530 because none of the definitions equate to what you have mentioned.  I have made comments based on yours and based on the usual Christian tactics I’ve seen here. I can see how you might take this as thinking your thoughts for you but I did not mean it that way, by the use of the word “usual”.  And I know that people dont’ want to be proven wrong.  But why come to a forum that is more than obvious on what it is and not expect people to try to prove you wrong? And, TS, there is no reason to admit one is wrong if one isn’t. You find something that I’ve been mistaken about and I have no problem admitting it.  I’ve misread things here on the forum, I’ve been off on stats, I’ve unproven claims and when shown I’m wrong, I accept it, apologize and move on.  Can you do the same?  You’ve said that nothing will change your mind, that’s as much admitting that you won’t.  [/quote]

whatever.  waffle is anything that is not directly related to the point. You made lots of assertions about me and you do not know me.    

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I also am amused when you say I should not judge you “by my own standards”.  Really, why not?  My standards are based on facts, my experience, etc.  What else do I have?

Is this site about judging Christians or is it about something else?
 
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I have explained what I thought you meant which is not changing the goalposts.  If I was doing that, I’d ignore you and then proceed to address what I decided to pursue. You see, you decide the “sense” of what you mean after someone questions it.  If you had meant what you have clarified, why not say that in the beginning?  Sense doesn’t always come through a post, TS.  It’s time you realized that.


Why dont you tell me then "what is the goal post here"? let us both be clear.

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I thought I had seen at some point you saying that I could not prove that God doesn’t exist. I may could be wrong and mixed you up with someone else.  My apologies (see not hard to do at all).  And proving that God exists or doesn’t exist is not only “dancing with words”. And no, I don’t “know” that. I know the exact opposite.  It’s the analysis of evidence and of the claims that supposed holy books make.  One can take refuge in the philosophical question of “can we know anything?” but most people are pretty sure they can know that a white-hot piece of metal in their bare hand is real and provable.  

Thank you for your apology. I disagree wrt to proving God exists or not.   Evidence is often interpreted by people to meet with their own biases. Evidence can be repeated and sometimes it cannot. Evidence is what it is - and it can be analysed - but we all know that evidence like statistics is used for the person using the statistics or the evidence. Even under cross examination - the truth does not necessarily come out.

What about love and abstract concepts? A white piece of metal is quite distinct from love or hate or jealousy or faith.  Economics is supposedly a science (social) but its evidence is utilised in many different ways by various fields and philosophies - abstract and concrete - but the evidence means contrary things to different people.

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Here we go again. There is no fact at all.  And you cannot know that I would not believe.  I would believe if I had evidence.  I used to believe and I occasionally direct a thought to God and ask for him to show himself, just like I asked when losing my faith. The reason I don’t believe is that no Christian can present any logical argument, that they can’t present any evidence and that they all disagree on what God “really means”. The commnents you find patronizing are comments with reaons behind them.  They indeed are condescending because of your actions. I have no need to offer respect to you.

I am not asking for respect - lol - as for patronising comments with reasons behind them - sorry I dont buy that. It is too convenient for you to make some comment and then use your "superior" attitude as an excuse. You say you lost your faith - well - that is too bad for you. If the faith was anything like you have attempted to articulate the christian faith is - then I say I am glad you have lost it.  I say that I believe in God - the same God that has for many years been worshipped by many people with different understandings about the preciseness of God.  How can anybody rationally think that any two people will have the same view exactly about God - if God is as he is portrayed in the Scriptures? For someone to say they dont believe because christians have contradicting views about God is in my mind absurd and irrational. As for a logical argument - what would be the purpose of faith then? Faith would lose all meaning. And evidence - oh dear - look at the human for a moment - in my mind this is clear evidence for the existence of God - but because the human can also be clear evidence for the existence of aliens or for no - god etc- this evidence is considered no evidence at all. I say everything is evidence for God -but what does that mean? It means that God has revealed himself to me.  But how do I prove that? by the way I live and the way I act and the way I present myself. but there are many people in the world who are not christians who live good lives? Yes that is true. but to what end? My end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. Other people who lead lives to what end? To their own end - or to their own God's end or to no end. That is a significant difference.

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I will ask again, then what is your purpose here?  You started your posts with declaring that your version of Christianity was the right one.  We countered that and showed you your errors. You ignore us. Then you make this claim:  
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My point is not to evangelise you - it never has been. It is not to persuade you that God is real or that the Bible is true. I merely answered a question  and then commented that my belief comes from God and that it is impossible for someone to know God without him revealing himself to them. This entire website is testimony to my belief and confirms it with every word that is written.
Again, we have a circular argument.  You want to claim that this website is “testimony” and “confirms” e.g. proves how right you are, that people can’t have faith if they don’t believe and don’t believe if god refuses them faith.  One of the other possibilities is that your god doesn’t exist and that you are a nut.


I neve started any of my posts saying that my version was correct or the right one. I accept that I imply this -but so does everyone on this site - so nothing is gained in that insight.

I apoligise if i have ignored you. I hope this post goes some way to answering some of your questions. I also do not agree that you demonstrated that you were correct and I was wrong. In one case I accept that I had misunderstood my own view -but i have now addressed that. It may be that i am mad or a nut - but then again I may not be.

I enjoy the discussions on this site and it is always wise to see what other people are saying about oneself.

Offline tradesecret

Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #306 on: November 03, 2010, 07:57:41 PM »
As I said above I dont see any need to prove God to you or to anyone. I accept you might have a need - but I dont.
Does this mean The Great Commission is only a metaphor or was it only for the disciples of Jesus?

Teaching people and instructing people and making disciples is part of the great commission. It is for today as well as the past - and it is not a metaphor.

My view is that this is instructing people about obeying God - and making disciples - but God makes the Christian - not I. A disciple is a student and a follower.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #307 on: November 04, 2010, 02:45:12 AM »
Conclusion is that man cannot by themselves choose God. 

Hence sinful man is doomed to death in eternal Hell unless God reveals himself to them. 

But does this mean that man - because he has no choice to choose God - is therefore not responsible for his actions and sinful life?

Yes.  It does.  If I am in capable of choosing god, then responsibility lies with the creature that created me in that way.


I say that man is responsible.  Even though man is unable to choose God -does not mean that he is therefore ignorant of what God's standards are.  Eg - most people on this site have not rejected God per se - they dont believe in him - but they cannot say they have not read the Scriptures - of Christianity or the other relevatory books.     They certainly cannot say that they are ignorant of what is expected.

But I CAN'T CHOOSE GOD.  It doesn't matter how much I may know: if I can't choose god then I cannot put it into practice, which makes it irrelevant.

Or are you saying now that if I am somehow able to say "hmmm -I know what this god creature apparently wants, so I'll do it" (WITHOUT this in any way being described as "choosing god"), then that will be sufficient to save me from eternal damnation? 

How can one choose to follow all the precepts and teachings of a particular creature, without in some way "choosing" that creature?  It would be like me following all the policies of the Labour party, without exception, but NOT "choosing Labour" as my political party.  Sorry, but it makes no sense - and is coming across as special pleading to dig yourself out of a logical conclusion that worries you.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #308 on: November 04, 2010, 02:54:13 AM »
If God appeared before you right now - you would not believe. If he turned you into a goldfish - you would not believe.

You are wrong.  Totally, 100% wrong.  If your god appeared in front of me, and turned me into a goldfish, I'd believe.  Full stop, no question.  Actual direct evidence of a god?  Sure - that would be more than enough for me.  
I must say that I do disagree with the notion that you would believe such direct evidence of God appearing before you and turning you into a gold fish - apart from the difficulty of whether a gold fish can remember for more than 3 seconds - you must have a notion of what God is that is quite distinct from something else that has the power to turn people into goldfish. 


The mind boggles.  I was, I confess, presuming that there would be continuity of consciousness (else what would be the point?)....but you honestly think that when confronted with all the thought processes that make me "me" suddenly being in a fish body....of experiencing fins, and gills, and flopping about gasping fro breath....that I would be thinking "well, clearly not god - obviously some perfectly logical explanation for this"....?

I think that - despite your protestations that you don't claim to know what I think - this straightforward denial of my assertion - "oh, you wouldn't" - appears to put an end to any discussion between us.


It's a shame that - despite apparently wanting a relationship with all of us and wanting us to be saved - your god doesn't do it.  Knowing everything, he MUST know that that level is all that would convince me....so I can only conclude that (since he doesn't do it), he doesn't WANT me to be convinced.
As I said above I dont see any need to prove God to you or to anyone. I accept you might have a need - but I dont.

No.  You don't.  But consider what I said above that....the power to convince me, to take the action that he KNOWS is the only action that will lead to my belief.....lies in the hands of your god.

He doesn't take that action.

And I have to consider what that actually means.....ESPECIALLY given your assertion that it is god that makes the choice, and not us.

Your god damns me forever, and there is NOTHING I can do about it....and you keep worshipping it.

Like I said, I think this conversation has nowhere left to go.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #309 on: November 04, 2010, 09:56:07 AM »
Gee I dont know about you - but there have not been to many people killed in my church recently. Or even in the last century. But I am not denying that  spats between the RC and the Protestant church have resulted in the deaths of many many people over the history of the church. Of course how much can be directly related to church theology or to the cultural acceptance of the time is another question. I say there is a true church - this however does not go by the name of presbyterian or baptist or anglican or charismatic. It does however have the common doctrines of the Trinity - and of the death and resurrection of Christ.  In many places if not most places - the churches of all denominations work together quite closely. Sometimes people get heated up about particular doctrines - eg the recent Anglican split oveer gay marriages has causes serious divisions in that church –
Great strawman, TS. I knew you wouldn’t disappoint me. So few TrueChristianstm do.  I do love how you just ignore that people were killing each other over religion.  If you don’t think it was, please do show any evidence that it wasn’t directly church related. And, TS, the culture of a people *includes* their religion. They were told by their churches that those “others” were evil.  And even your words show how this works. You “say there is a true church”, just like they all did. You want your version to be the “right” one, and all others are “wrong”.  How typical. I have yet to see that in “most” places that churches work together.  In my town, we have a mission that helps people. Why is it that they have to sent out appeal after appeal to the entire community *if* churches work together.  Why does no one seem to know to help these people, all of those good church going Christians?  And I know it’s the same in most communities.  We have each little church with its fancy building, its own worship service, its own chicken barbeque to raise money, when they could save so much in just economies of scale it is sickening. I grew up in western PA, where the RCC is *still* looked upon with suspicion.  My church broke up because of differences between “good Christians”.  I’m sorry, TS, but with my evidence and your unsupported claims, I have little reason to believe you.   
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I have read your link and note that is said to be written by a calvinist.  My view is that he is attempting to provide a way of communicating the essential truthes of the Reformed theology and does so in an interesting way.  My understanding is that which I have articulated above - using the very words within the TULIP itself - PERSEVERENCE of the SAINTS. The Saints have to persevere - this is the essence of that doctrine and is part of the TULIP which provides the Christian with the humility to know that Salvation belongs to God not to mankind. I dont disagree with the verses used - but in context Jesus also says you will know them by their fruits. The doctrine of election is a doctrine that provides assurance to Christians that they do not have to earn their salvation - but the final doctrines is there to ensure that Christians do not take their own election as a right.  In any event there are many websites and books which teach what I have articulated.
I do love when you have decided that you know better than some other Christian about what God “really meant”.  Just hilarious.  So, TS, can one lose one’s salvation?  Simple yes or no question. It seems no from what you’ve said. So perseverance has little to do with anything and indeed it is a “get out of jail free card” if *nothing* can make you get in jail, not even if you stopped being “fruitful”.  And TS, I know you’d have no idea that I was an atheist by my “fruits” e.g good actions, right?, unless I told you directly I was an atheist.  So, this seems to be a rather untenable claim.
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We worship with other churches because we accept that we are all Christians and saved by faith in Christ. What is so hard to understand about that? The fact that we use different buildings serves lots of different purposes - firstly within our denominations we have different backgrounds and practices - some baptise in a font some use a baptismal.  Within the parametres of Christian thinking - there is also freedom and liberty. Whilst I may disagree with the arminian doctrine of free will - I have no issue with worshiping God with arminians. When I visit my mother - I always attend at the Baptist Church - and she always attends with me at the Presbyterian church when she visits with me.
TS, you’ve claimed that Baptists worship with other Christians. I asked why are there different churches then. I’m asking why is there no “true” church, as you’ve claimed exists, that all of you go to. Why are there half-empty churches in many towns, each clinging to their sect as if they were the only ones? Why not go to one all together?  Yes, you do have different practices.  You have different beliefs that indicate how right you are with your god.  Baptism is indeed a good example. Is it from a font or from a pool?  Is it adult or infant?  And I love the idea that there is “freedom and liberty” in the parameters of “Christain thinking” when you all say the other is “wrong” in what they do.  And you say that you have no problem with worshipping with Arminians but you disagree with one of their basic tenents.  Are you worshipping with them, TS, sharing the same beliefs and practices, or are you in the
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fair enough - I cannot read your mind and I should not be assuming to know you - but we all use our own experiences. and funnily enough - you reacted in a similar manner to what i expected. I deny that I lied.
If you cannot read my mind and you have never met me, but made claims about me, claims that you could not know to be true other than your assumptions, I find that if not a outright lie, a really badly thought out assumption.  And wow, I’m reacting in a offended manner over your nonsense. Golly.  You make a claim like this:
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Atheists have no common theology (allegedly) but the doctrine that God does not exist.
A demonstrably false statement.  Then you, when called on it say
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I know that atheists are in denial and they get all sensitive about this partiuclar issue.
So you claim you “know” something about all atheists.  If you didn’t know, that seems to be misinformation told about a group of people, e.g. false witnessing. 
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whatever.  waffle is anything that is not directly related to the point. You made lots of assertions about me and you do not know me.
Then when I call on you to show that I was waffling, things suddenly become beside the point.  Thanks for not addressing your claims and my points.   
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Is this site about judging Christians or is it about something else?
This site is for judging what Christians claim. You have been welcomed here to discuss your beliefs.  It’s a discussion forum.  It is not “preach to me and I’ll accept whatever you say with no consideration”. What else would you like to insinuate it is? It also would be nice if you would answer a question rather than ignoring it.

And another question ignoring my response.  I have told you what I thought you meant right here http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16191.msg365649#msg365649 .  I can show you what moving the goalposts means: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts 

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Thank you for your apology. I disagree wrt to proving God exists or not.   Evidence is often interpreted by people to meet with their own biases. Evidence can be repeated and sometimes it cannot. Evidence is what it is - and it can be analysed - but we all know that evidence like statistics is used for the person using the statistics or the evidence. Even under cross examination - the truth does not necessarily come out.
yes, evidence can be interpreted to meet biases. But not all of the time and not only people who disagree with you.  Evidence should be able to be repeated if it is used as evidence. For example, evidence of a roberry needs evidence that is logical and known to have happened before and can so again. Claiming that a unicorn robbed me and flew off into the sky is not the same as saying I was robbed by a young woman with a .38 on the corner of 4th and Main. All evidence that theist have ever presented to me has been not been even the loosest definition of evidence. It is feelings, coincidence (attributable to *any* god btw), and stories that have nothing supporting them.  Why should I believe your claims when you dont’ believe the claims of another theist and you share the exact same lack of evidence for them. 

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What about love and abstract concepts? A white piece of metal is quite distinct from love or hate or jealousy or faith.  Economics is supposedly a science (social) but its evidence is utilised in many different ways by various fields and philosophies - abstract and concrete - but the evidence means contrary things to different people.
I do feel sorry for you if you have no evidence anyone loves you.  That’s rather sad.  I have plenty of evidence of hate, jealousy, love, passion, and faith. Yep, because faith causes people to do things, evidence.  There is no similar evidence for your god.  And I agree economics can be squirrely.  People can claim evidence as supporting them.  But again, not always.  You yourself constantly claim “facts” supported by evidence and by your own argument, you could be totally wrong.
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I am not asking for respect - lol - as for patronising comments with reasons behind them - sorry I dont buy that. It is too convenient for you to make some comment and then use your "superior" attitude as an excuse.
thanks for another baseless claim.
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You say you lost your faith - well - that is too bad for you. If the faith was anything like you have attempted to articulate the christian faith is - then I say I am glad you have lost it.
aw, TS, nice attempt at the True Scotsman fallacy.
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I say that I believe in God - the same God that has for many years been worshipped by many people with different understandings about the preciseness of God.  How can anybody rationally think that any two people will have the same view exactly about God - if God is as he is portrayed in the Scriptures? For someone to say they dont believe because christians have contradicting views about God is in my mind absurd and irrational.
then so much for anything in the scriptures being accurate. Again, you depower your god so you can have an excuse. Why can’t got get his message through, TS?
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As for a logical argument - what would be the purpose of faith then? Faith would lose all meaning.
that wasn’t a problem with God in the OT and NT.
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And evidence - oh dear - look at the human for a moment - in my mind this is clear evidence for the existence of God - but because the human can also be clear evidence for the existence of aliens or for no - god etc- this evidence is considered no evidence at all. I say everything is evidence for God -but what does that mean? It means that God has revealed himself to me.  But how do I prove that? by the way I live and the way I act and the way I present myself. but there are many people in the world who are not christians who live good lives? Yes that is true. but to what end? My end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. Other people who lead lives to what end? To their own end - or to their own God's end or to no end. That is a significant difference.
all things all theists no matter what god they worship claim. Everything is evidence for Allah, Vishnu, the Great Spirit.  I live in the “right” way because of Allah, Vishnu, the Great Spirit.  I do love how you devalue all of the good that people do so you can feel special.  I live a good life because I care about the world and my fellow living beings. I care. I don’t expect a reward from a magical being in the sky.  I don’t believe that any being worth worshipping *needs* to be worshipped or *needs* glory.
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I neve started any of my posts saying that my version was correct or the right one. I accept that I imply this -but so does everyone on this site - so nothing is gained in that insight.
oh this is rich. Yes, you do “imply” this. What is gained by this insight is that I support my claims.  You do not.  You have decided that you are right and with no evidence of such a thing.   

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I apoligise if i have ignored you. I hope this post goes some way to answering some of your questions. I also do not agree that you demonstrated that you were correct and I was wrong. In one case I accept that I had misunderstood my own view -but i have now addressed that. It may be that i am mad or a nut - but then again I may not be.
Until you can demonstrate me wrong, I do not care what you agree about.  Simple as that. And until you have any evidence that you are not just one more theist with the same nonsense, you are just playing with Pascal’s wager. And that is a losing one.
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #310 on: November 04, 2010, 10:32:28 AM »
What about the parts that clearly say that god simply chooses who he wants to go heaven and damns everyone else, regardless of what they've done in their lives?

That discussion has no end.  There are scriptures that can't be argued that says God has chosen and elected, and there are scriptures that says, all who call on the name of the Lord, anyone who believes.  This discussion has become a major source of division in churches today.  For me, I don't struggle with it, because I believe God chose to forgive everyone, example, the cross of Jesus, taking the sins of the whole world, but because God didn't make us robots, we can either take the forgiveness or leave it.  Therefore those who are chosen but refuse, don't get in.  The idea that God elects and saves regardless of freewill, means you have to take out the big sharpie and mark out verses, the idea that God didn't choose us or elect the evangelical church also means you have to take out some scripture.  And the bible says you can't do that so, either its all bogus, or there is another understanding that I may not possess.  You say that is conveniant, but isn't it convenient when we admit we don't have it all figured out whether its evolution, big bang, microbiology or whatever? 

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #311 on: November 04, 2010, 10:37:05 AM »
Yes, but your original statement was...
Quote from:  Phelix22
I am not disciplining her for sin, but for bad behavior.

So how do you determine what is sin and what is bad behaviour, since they are both exactly the same thing?

one deals with the present, one deals with the eternal.  She has a responsibility to me her father, and to God.  Her responsibility to me, pick up the dirty clothes, her responsibility to God, obey her father and mother.  If she doesn't pick up the clothes she gets punished, if she disobeys her parents it is a sin which has eternal consequences if unforgiven.  Two realms.  One act, but responsible in two different ways.

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #312 on: November 04, 2010, 10:43:22 AM »

It also teaches to rape women, to stone people to death, to amputate people, to support slavery, to hate homosexuals.

Good stuff you follow there.  I find your approach of trying to defend such a book to be morally repugnant.


Why do you do that?
  I find your claims to be trumped up and a misrepresentation of the bible.  It doesn't teach to hate anyone, it doesn't teach to rape anyone.  If you have read the whole book and can say definitively you believe it teaches that, then you show a real lack of intelligence which I am sure you have.  As it is you sound like most intellectuals who don't believe in God who see the bible as a tool for Christians and an equal tool for skeptics to punch holes in what Christians believe, you can take your selected verse here and there and make the bible to say what you want, but to do so, means you simply haven't evaluated the entire text.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #313 on: November 04, 2010, 10:51:03 AM »
What about the parts that clearly say that god simply chooses who he wants to go heaven and damns everyone else, regardless of what they've done in their lives?

That discussion has no end.  There are scriptures that can't be argued that says God has chosen and elected, and there are scriptures that says, all who call on the name of the Lord, anyone who believes.  This discussion has become a major source of division in churches today.  For me, I don't struggle with it, because I believe God chose to forgive everyone, example, the cross of Jesus, taking the sins of the whole world, but because God didn't make us robots, we can either take the forgiveness or leave it.  Therefore those who are chosen but refuse, don't get in.  The idea that God elects and saves regardless of freewill, means you have to take out the big sharpie and mark out verses, the idea that God didn't choose us or elect the evangelical church also means you have to take out some scripture.  And the bible says you can't do that so, either its all bogus, or there is another understanding that I may not possess.  You say that is conveniant, but isn't it convenient when we admit we don't have it all figured out whether its evolution, big bang, microbiology or whatever? 

As has been pointed out, if you don't know then you have no business making claims. If your only response is 'because I believe' then nothing you say about the subject has value. If you admit that you don't understand it, then you can't make any claim about anything regarding it. Or you can, but it certainly doesn't make you look very good or very intelligent.
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #314 on: November 04, 2010, 10:56:49 AM »
See, this is more logical contradiction that many of us have a problem with. Xians pick and choose, and the laws get modified, or thrown out entirely over time. It's nonsensical. Can you explain it to me? Can you explain how you cannot disregard the law, but you can disregard the law? Why? If it's all about faith in jesus (which I'm pretty sure the bible contradicts), why follow any of the laws?

Because of Scriptures like: Matt 5:18-19 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

acts 13:38-39  38 “Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. 39 Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Eph 2:7-9 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

A salvation based on what we can do to get to heaven means that there is someway we can earn it.  If that were true, we wouldn't need God, we wouldn't need Jesus, and Jesus would not have had to die.  If Jesus didn't have to die, then God was a liar and the whole thing is bogus.  But the scriptures teach that Jesus did what he did so that those who believe can be saved.  

So to be specific, we can't throw out the OT Law, but we are free from having to be perfect, because the cross covers every violation.  So we try, but our salvation doesn't depend on our ability to succeed.  

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #315 on: November 04, 2010, 11:40:15 AM »
That discussion has no end.  There are scriptures that can't be argued that says God has chosen and elected, and there are scriptures that says, all who call on the name of the Lord, anyone who believes.  This discussion has become a major source of division in churches today.  For me, I don't struggle with it, because I believe God chose to forgive everyone, example, the cross of Jesus, taking the sins of the whole world, but because God didn't make us robots, we can either take the forgiveness or leave it.  Therefore those who are chosen but refuse, don't get in.  The idea that God elects and saves regardless of freewill, means you have to take out the big sharpie and mark out verses, the idea that God didn't choose us or elect the evangelical church also means you have to take out some scripture.And the bible says you can't do that so, either its all bogus, or there is another understanding that I may not possess.

I find it rather amusing that you do exactly what other Christians do, but when they do it they are wrong. 
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You say that is conveniant, but isn't it convenient when we admit we don't have it all figured out whether its evolution, big bang, microbiology or whatever? 
No since people are still trying to figure out evolutionary theory, the BB, etc.  How many of you are questioning this religion/faith/relationship and not deciding that you already know the answer?
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #316 on: November 04, 2010, 11:52:32 AM »
Oh goodie.  Magic decoder ring battle.  My favourite.


So how do you determine what is sin and what is bad behaviour, since they are both exactly the same thing?

one deals with the present, one deals with the eternal.  She has a responsibility to me her father, and to God.  Her responsibility to me, pick up the dirty clothes, her responsibility to God, obey her father and mother.  If she doesn't pick up the clothes she gets punished, if she disobeys her parents it is a sin which has eternal consequences if unforgiven.  Two realms.  One act, but responsible in two different ways.
So you say.  However, you do not acknowledge that bad behaviour is only bad behaviour because that's what god has defined as bad behaviour.  It has nothing to do with different "realms".

The only reason you are punishing your kids in this context is because god has told you that 'X' or 'Y' behaviour is bad.  Anyone who does anything that is contrary to god's word has sinned.  So, you are, in effect, merely punishing her (under god's orders) for sinning against HIM, not you.

I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Dante

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #317 on: November 04, 2010, 11:58:00 AM »
So to be specific, we can't throw out the OT Law, but we are free from having to be perfect, because the cross covers every violation.  So we try, but our salvation doesn't depend on our ability to succeed.  

Giant loophole! Love it! Christianity was made for people who don't really believe. It's perfect.

Nice talking to you, phelix. I really do appreciate your responses, but I'm outta this thread, if you dont mind.



Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #318 on: November 04, 2010, 12:17:49 PM »
^^^^ I like how he says that he doesn't bother to think about whether or not he has to behave in a certain way, or whether god will simply choose people. I'd say that alone shows that he doesn't actually believe. It doesn't matter what the bible says, because he believes. Unless the bible agrees with him, then it's important. The interesting thing is that he says that if god chooses us regardless of free will, you have to take a sharpie and mark out pieces of the bible. But free will means that you have to mark out about three times as much of the bible, in fact you pretty much have to alter most of it. This is just sad.
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