Author Topic: Do they really believe?  (Read 19914 times)

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Offline dloubet

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #261 on: November 02, 2010, 07:02:12 PM »
Well, I would call them mentally ill. But if I grant the existence of a god that would tell someone to kill, then it becomes a clear moral question.

Do you obey the orders of a being that says it's benevolent, says it knows everything, says it's all powerful and the source of all justice?

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Offline wright

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #262 on: November 02, 2010, 07:24:03 PM »
Do you obey the orders of a being that says it's benevolent, says it knows everything, says it's all powerful and the source of all justice?

Actions speak louder than words. If said being really knows everything, then it should know exactly what evidence would convince me of its authority without having to say a single word.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #263 on: November 02, 2010, 07:36:39 PM »
Well, I would call them mentally ill. But if I grant the existence of a god that would tell someone to kill, then it becomes a clear moral question.

Do you obey the orders of a being that says it's benevolent, says it knows everything, says it's all powerful and the source of all justice?



Since I supposedly know good and evil as god does, if I find the idea immoral, and if most people would agree with me. Then I think that it's fairly safe to say that it is immoral. Moreover if god wanted me to do something, if it was a god of the type that I would be inclined to worship, he would give me a very good reason and evidence to suggest why I should do something that I find so repugnant.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #264 on: November 03, 2010, 02:02:32 AM »
Sorry, Phel, but your ignorance of your own supposed holy book is rather sad.  
 
Funny do you expect me to have the entire 66 books memorized?  

Nope.  What I WOULD expect is that someone who bases their life, and their afterlife, on a particular book, would have first gone rather carefully through that book and be aware of any honking great issues within it. 

Are you married, at all?  Intend to be married at some point?  Have children?  Intend to?

If the answer to any of those is "yes", then I would have expected you to have carefully looked at all verses in the Bible dealing with marriage, and children, and inheritance, and know exactly what is, and is not your god's will.  Otherwise, you would be risking your god's wrath for not following his will....moreover, his will that is clearly laid down in his holy book.

Maybe you are a confirmed batchelor, and are positive you will never marry or sire children, in which case I can forgive your ignorance on the "marriage" aspects of the Bible.  However, I would THEN expect you to be able to discuss in informed manner what your god's will is on THAT position - for example, with regard to the "be fruitful" exhortations.

Point being, I'd expect someone who BELIEVES to be completely clued up on the subject of marriage and offspring, one way or the other, so that they are SURE they are doing what their god wants.  To bleat that "many have forgotten more than I will know" is a weak cop-out: is THAT what you will say to your god when challenged on why you ignored his words on marriage?

I'm afraid that - once again - we see a "believer" who does not ACT as if they believed.  Trust me, phelix - if I believed that an all-powerful, all-seeing being had laid down the rules on what I should, or should not do, to save my eternal existence.....you would NOT find me claiming ignorance of one jot, being unable to defend my views on the merest tittle.  My first - my ONLY priority would be to go through that Bible until I knew it backwards and had answered to my complete satisfaction any concerns I might have with it.  And I would be doing that at the expense of family, friends, work....everything.

Because this would be THE WORD OF GOD - THE most important thing in existence by an infinte factor.  I would have learned it by heart and would follow it to the last comma in every aspect of my life, with never a single slip or mistake, because it would mean everything.  But not one "Christian" we have had here ever seems to have done so.  And so I say again - they do not really believe.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Dante

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #265 on: November 03, 2010, 02:56:37 AM »
Exactly the point of the OP! Bravo!

« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 03:09:06 AM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Lurking

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #266 on: November 03, 2010, 07:36:04 AM »
I'm addicted.  and I just have to try one more answer.  Funny do you expect me to have the entire 66 books memorized? .....
Actually, yes. You should. Your eternal fate depends on it.  I’m sure most people around here have done it, too. I have. That’s also the most important reason I’m not a Christian anymore. One contradiction after the other. No logic involved.  Remember, eternity depends on it. The word of god is supposed to be the most important thing in the world. Supposed to be the eternal, unchanging  word of god. Eternity is involved. Heaven or hell. Forever. You should memorize the only source of knowledge about your faith. You might make better arguments for your faith after memorizing it. We're here to learn. How can you teach us something about your faith when we know more about it than you do?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 07:44:18 AM by Lurking »

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #267 on: November 03, 2010, 09:08:07 AM »
^ Therefore, you believe it only teaches goodness.

In which case, velkyn cannot possibly be mischaracterising your position on what the bible teaches.


Will you now acknowldege that?
sure, but I don't agree with that.  I think it is bad when a girl takes off her clothes for money, but there are others who think it is an honest profession.  If someone is a exotic dance instructor, i would think she is teaching something bad, but in reality, it would be up to interpretation.  Therefore, I say the bible teaches good, and I don't say the bible only teaches good.  to say only takes away someone else's interpretation, makes me a bigot.  That is the difference.  I don't think less highly of anyone's interpretation, I may not agree but I don't put it on a different level beneath mine.  Does that make sense?  I was more offended at what the statement means when you add the word only.   

Offline Operator_011

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #268 on: November 03, 2010, 09:11:29 AM »
In which case you have to acknowledge that is also teaches bad. You can't have it both ways. We're not talking about the interpretation of others, we're talking about your personal interpretation.

So, in your eyes, either it teaches only good, or it teaches only bad, or it teaches both good and bad.

Take your pick from those options.
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #269 on: November 03, 2010, 09:26:15 AM »
Velkyn has clearly shown that you have not read enough of it to be an authority on the subject.
how can you clearly show if someone has read enough to be an authority, i can understand that testing can show cognition and comprehension of a subject, interviews can help show the depth of knowledge over a subject, but how can a few posts on a thread clearly show that I haven't read the bible enough to be an authority.  with over 100 hours of masters level courses in bible books and theology, I have the credentials to be an authority, with 14 years in vocational ministry i have the authority, and by my teaching weekly 3 lessons and sometimes 4, I have the experience to claim that I am an authority on scripture, I am not a leading authority, nor do I like to claim to be anything, I don't like bragging, but I don't know of any other way to argue that i clearly have read enough to be an authority.


So your only argument, when confronted with the reality that God does many things in the Bible that are completely horrible and unjustified by any modern human being's standards, is that God can do what he wants because he's God, and we can't question him?  Even in view of the fact that you have no evidence he exists?  Sorry, why is it that you worship this abomination again?

That is why I say, If God is who he says he is, which would be All knowing, humans aren't, all powerful, humans aren't, and the creator of a lower level of being, which humans aren't, then it is fair that the humans don't get to make God fit their standards, but that they must fit the creators standards, and "IF" He is the creator and one true, holy, and just God, then no, I don't get to judge his methods.  In summary, it is because of the lowely view I have of our understanding, not my perfect view of who God is.  To me it's the same as saying to the mechanic at the autoshop, what do you think about this heart surgeon's work on my triple by-pass.  Why would I trust the evaluation of a heart surgery from an auto-mechanic.  Not that they are less human or honest or anything, but they simply don't have the understanding of heart surgery to make an educated evaluation.  It takes a pretty arrogant person to claim they have enough understanding of how everything works, and how everything God has done has happened to say whether or not it was a righteous thing or not.  I don't have it, and I don't believe any human does.


nope, I am simply claiming not all archeology contradicts the events in the bible.  
Most of it does though.
 that wasn't what was originally said though, do you now disagree that Quote from: velkyn "As for archaeology, there is nothing that supports any of the essential events claimed to have occurred in the Bible."

So you believe in something you can't see, hear, touch, or understand?  You're deluded.
not deluded.  Just different.  And yes, you see I do believe, which is why I answered the post in the first place.  So even you understand now that i believe.  That means I have at least proven my point to one.


Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #270 on: November 03, 2010, 09:32:22 AM »
In which case you have to acknowledge that is also teaches bad. You can't have it both ways. We're not talking about the interpretation of others, we're talking about your personal interpretation.

So, in your eyes, either it teaches only good, or it teaches only bad, or it teaches both good and bad.

Take your pick from those options.

i don't see how what in my eyes the bible teaches is the issue, when what was misrepresented is what I claimed the bible teaches.  I can believe that the sex industry is bad, but that every law abiding citizen who pays taxes is a good thing.  I claim that every law abiding citizen who pays taxes is a good thing, but that the sex industry is bad.

i simply never claimed the bible only teaches good.  yes?

Offline Operator_011

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #271 on: November 03, 2010, 09:41:13 AM »
i don't see how what in my eyes the bible teaches is the issue, when what was misrepresented is what I claimed the bible teaches.
It's quite simple:

Do you claim that the bible teaches only good, only bad, or a combination of good and bad?

If you dodge that question again, you're going to the ER.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #272 on: November 03, 2010, 09:43:22 AM »
Velkyn has clearly shown that you have not read enough of it to be an authority on the subject.
how can you clearly show if someone has read enough to be an authority, i can understand that testing can show cognition and comprehension of a subject, interviews can help show the depth of knowledge over a subject, but how can a few posts on a thread clearly show that I haven't read the bible enough to be an authority.

Because you have yet to demonstrate knowledge of the bible that surpasses that of my sixteen year-old atheist sister. You can stand around and claim to be know about the bible until your fingers fall off from the typing. But if you aren't capable of applying that knowledge then calling yourself an authority is a blatant lie, no matter how many hours you supposedly spent studying.


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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #273 on: November 03, 2010, 09:54:56 AM »
i don't see how what in my eyes the bible teaches is the issue, when what was misrepresented is what I claimed the bible teaches.
It's quite simple:

Do you claim that the bible teaches only good, only bad, or a combination of good and bad?


to answer I must advertise my own opinion.  But I believe the bible teaches both bad and good.  Example.  Judas betrays Jesus, feels guilty and commits suicide.  Suicide is bad, but it is one way to handle guilt.  The bible teaches that another way is to ask God for forgivenss, and that is a good way to handle guilt. 

If you dodge that question again, you're going to the ER.
  The rules are set up to keep it fair.  I don't think it is fair to make absolute statements that put you in the place of an elitist.  That is why I don't say only, always, everyone...those statements simply can't be qualified.  And everytime I do, which I know I have done in the past, I have had to eat them. 

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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #274 on: November 03, 2010, 09:57:04 AM »

Because you have yet to demonstrate knowledge of the bible that surpasses that of my sixteen year-old atheist sister. You can stand around and claim to be know about the bible until your fingers fall off from the typing. But if you aren't capable of applying that knowledge then calling yourself an authority is a blatant lie, no matter how many hours you supposedly spent studying.


see how the subject was changed from you haven't read enough to am I an authority.  My argument is that I have read enough.  And no one has clearly shown that I haven't read enough.  i may not know enough to please you, but that isn't what we were talking about.

Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #275 on: November 03, 2010, 10:00:27 AM »
I'm addicted.  and I just have to try one more answer.  Funny do you expect me to have the entire 66 books memorized? .....
Actually, yes. You should. Your eternal fate depends on it.  I’m sure most people around here have done it, too. I have.
  Memorized the entire bible.  I don't know of anyone who has the entire book memorized.  Could you prove you have it memorized?  I'm sure most people around here are familiar with all 66 books, but I doubt you or anyone has it memorized and as so many say in here, if you haven't that makes you a liar.

Offline Operator_011

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #276 on: November 03, 2010, 10:03:38 AM »
to answer I must advertise my own opinion.  But I believe the bible teaches both bad and good.
Right, then your position is that the bible teaches goodness AND badness.


Thanks for your honesty.


In this post, for example, you're making it appear as if the bible does not teach badness:
Let me explain.  The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl, or to legalize abortion or to take on many wives and concubines.  It doesn't teach to destroy anyone who gets in your way, or that the person with the most toys wins.  It teaches to love your neighbor, to go the extra mile, to give them your shirt if they ask for your coat.  It teaches to forgive and reconcile.  It teaches that there are consequences to sin and that governments should be fair.  It teaches that we should be honest and hardworking.  To someone who thinks that God is a joke, I can see how the stories can be far fetched, but what does it teach?  It teaches goodness.


If you'd stated earlier on that it also teaches badness, there wouldn't have been a mix up.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #277 on: November 03, 2010, 10:09:35 AM »

Because you have yet to demonstrate knowledge of the bible that surpasses that of my sixteen year-old atheist sister. You can stand around and claim to be know about the bible until your fingers fall off from the typing. But if you aren't capable of applying that knowledge then calling yourself an authority is a blatant lie, no matter how many hours you supposedly spent studying.


see how the subject was changed from you haven't read enough to am I an authority.  My argument is that I have read enough.  And no one has clearly shown that I haven't read enough.  i may not know enough to please you, but that isn't what we were talking about.

Your claim is not backed up by any evidence. Like I said, you can claim to be an authority all you want. But your demonstration of knowledge doesn't show it. Don't make claims that you won't back up. Just because you think your knowledge is enough doesn't make you an authority on anything. It makes you yet another in a long-line of ego-driven theists who come here to bore us. Your ignorance has been pointed out previously, you've admitted you don't have it memorized, which doesn't necessarily refute your claims of being an authority but it does make us wonder just what exactly it is that you do know?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 10:12:01 AM by Alzael »
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Offline phelix22

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #278 on: November 03, 2010, 10:13:13 AM »

Point being, I'd expect someone who BELIEVES to be completely clued up on the subject of marriage and offspring, one way or the other, so that they are SURE they are doing what their god wants.  To bleat that "many have forgotten more than I will know" is a weak cop-out: is THAT what you will say to your god when challenged on why you ignored his words on marriage?

I'm afraid that - once again - we see a "believer" who does not ACT as if they believed.  Trust me, phelix - if I believed that an all-powerful, all-seeing being had laid down the rules on what I should, or should not do, to save my eternal existence.....you would NOT find me claiming ignorance of one jot, being unable to defend my views on the merest tittle.  My first - my ONLY priority would be to go through that Bible until I knew it backwards and had answered to my complete satisfaction any concerns I might have with it.  And I would be doing that at the expense of family, friends, work....everything.

Because this would be THE WORD OF GOD - THE most important thing in existence by an infinte factor.  I would have learned it by heart and would follow it to the last comma in every aspect of my life, with never a single slip or mistake, because it would mean everything.  But not one "Christian" we have had here ever seems to have done so.  And so I say again - they do not really believe.

This is probably the most well articulated challenge I have ever heard, and I appreciate it more than you will know.  You are right on very many levels, Christians should regard the bible as THE WORD OF GOD and as the most important thing by an infinite factor, but God doesn't want the bible to be worshiped more than him, Commandment 1 of the "ten commandments"  and when Jesus was asked about the greatest command it was to Love God and the second is as the first to love others.  The pharisees turned worship into a list of do's and don'ts, and failed to protect the relationship aspect of worship.  The bible teaches that we are to live not free from the law but under a new covenant one of Grace.  Not that we can disregard the law, but one focused on following Jesus example.  He healed on the sabbath, which the pharisees considered work as was picking some grain and eating it, But the problem isn't are we living every word of the mosaic law but have we been forgiven.  My eternal destination doesn't depend on how well I obey all the rules, if it did, no one would get in.  But according to the scriptures it depends on my faith in Jesus.  That is why i don't have all the levitical law memorized or am thoroughly square on every jot and tittle.  It doesn't excuse it, and I do and am continually studying to show myself approved, but I am young and have lots to go.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #279 on: November 03, 2010, 10:21:11 AM »

Point being, I'd expect someone who BELIEVES to be completely clued up on the subject of marriage and offspring, one way or the other, so that they are SURE they are doing what their god wants.  To bleat that "many have forgotten more than I will know" is a weak cop-out: is THAT what you will say to your god when challenged on why you ignored his words on marriage?

I'm afraid that - once again - we see a "believer" who does not ACT as if they believed.  Trust me, phelix - if I believed that an all-powerful, all-seeing being had laid down the rules on what I should, or should not do, to save my eternal existence.....you would NOT find me claiming ignorance of one jot, being unable to defend my views on the merest tittle.  My first - my ONLY priority would be to go through that Bible until I knew it backwards and had answered to my complete satisfaction any concerns I might have with it.  And I would be doing that at the expense of family, friends, work....everything.

Because this would be THE WORD OF GOD - THE most important thing in existence by an infinte factor.  I would have learned it by heart and would follow it to the last comma in every aspect of my life, with never a single slip or mistake, because it would mean everything.  But not one "Christian" we have had here ever seems to have done so.  And so I say again - they do not really believe.

This is probably the most well articulated challenge I have ever heard, and I appreciate it more than you will know.  You are right on very many levels, Christians should regard the bible as THE WORD OF GOD and as the most important thing by an infinite factor, but God doesn't want the bible to be worshiped more than him, Commandment 1 of the "ten commandments"  and when Jesus was asked about the greatest command it was to Love God and the second is as the first to love others.  The pharisees turned worship into a list of do's and don'ts, and failed to protect the relationship aspect of worship.  The bible teaches that we are to live not free from the law but under a new covenant one of Grace.  Not that we can disregard the law, but one focused on following Jesus example.  He healed on the sabbath, which the pharisees considered work as was picking some grain and eating it, But the problem isn't are we living every word of the mosaic law but have we been forgiven.  My eternal destination doesn't depend on how well I obey all the rules, if it did, no one would get in.  But according to the scriptures it depends on my faith in Jesus.  
What about the parts that clearly say that god simply chooses who he wants to go heaven and damns everyone else, regardless of what they've done in their lives?
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #280 on: November 03, 2010, 10:26:03 AM »

I see. 

However, you seem to forget that bad behaviour IS sin.  So, why are you punishing your daughter for sinning, since you just said that this isn't your job?
 
It is my job to train up my children in the way that they should go.  I am to represent what a good father does.  In the real world there are consequences.  You steal, you go to jail.


Yes, but your original statement was...
Quote from:  Phelix22
I am not disciplining her for sin, but for bad behavior.

So how do you determine what is sin and what is bad behaviour, since they are both exactly the same thing?
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #281 on: November 03, 2010, 10:32:14 AM »

Quote
and I haven't found any biblical teaching to be like that of flying snakes and the furiousness of the fetal lions.

Let me explain.  The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl, or to legalize abortion or to take on many wives and concubines.  It doesn't teach to destroy anyone who gets in your way, or that the person with the most toys wins.  It teaches to love your neighbor, to go the extra mile, to give them your shirt if they ask for your coat.  It teaches to forgive and reconcile.  It teaches that there are consequences to sin and that governments should be fair.  It teaches that we should be honest and hardworking.  To someone who thinks that God is a joke, I can see how the stories can be far fetched, but what does it teach?  It teaches goodness.

It also teaches to rape women, to stone people to death, to amputate people, to support slavery, to hate homosexuals.

Good stuff you follow there.  I find your approach of trying to defend such a book to be morally repugnant.


Why do you do that?
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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #282 on: November 03, 2010, 10:42:48 AM »
 The bible teaches that we are to live not free from the law but under a new covenant one of Grace.  Not that we can disregard the law, but one focused on following Jesus example.  He healed on the sabbath, which the pharisees considered work as was picking some grain and eating it, But the problem isn't are we living every word of the mosaic law but have we been forgiven.  My eternal destination doesn't depend on how well I obey all the rules, if it did, no one would get in.  But according to the scriptures it depends on my faith in Jesus.  That is why i don't have all the levitical law memorized or am thoroughly square on every jot and tittle.  It doesn't excuse it, and I do and am continually studying to show myself approved, but I am young and have lots to go.

Bolding mine.

See, this is more logical contradiction that many of us have a problem with. Xians pick and choose, and the laws get modified, or thrown out entirely over time. It's nonsensical. Can you explain it to me? Can you explain how you cannot disregard the law, but you can disregard the law? Why? If it's all about faith in jesus (which I'm pretty sure the bible contradicts), why follow any of the laws?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #283 on: November 03, 2010, 10:45:40 AM »
What I want to know is, since the bible teaches both good and bad, how does one tell the difference? When god says to rape women, how do you know that that's a bad command and not a good one? Or do you think that it's a good one?
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #284 on: November 03, 2010, 10:53:16 AM »
^^ Hating homosexuals and raping women is good, because god cannot be wrong.  &)

Many muslims have no problem with this, and do both quite freely, but try and get a christian [who defends the bible] to see the words for what they are is nigh on impossible, in my experience.


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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #285 on: November 03, 2010, 11:19:26 AM »
Well yes, Agga. I know that the christian god is a soulless rapist and you know that god is a soulless rapist. I'm just wondering if he knows it, and is either ok with that or thinks it's bad but god can do what he wants.

Edit: Actually I worded that wrong. God isn't a rapist he simply encourages his followers to commit rape and use women only for sex and property. That makes him a rapists cheerleader. Now how pathetic is that?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 11:21:07 AM by Alzael »
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #286 on: November 03, 2010, 11:54:31 AM »
The typically (but customized) christian things that phelix22 is saying gives me an idea.

Every bible should come with an equally thick pamphlet labeled "Errata".

It could of course be changed every frickin' day if need be.

Or, maybe all that is actually needed is a wiki detailing all this crap so we heathens could keep up to date on the which laws its okay to disobey because of jesus, etc.

The resulting mess of entries and links would make wikipedia pale in comparison. But it would be fun to watch.
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Offline Agga

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #287 on: November 03, 2010, 11:57:37 AM »
Edit: Actually I worded that wrong. God isn't a rapist he simply encourages his followers to commit rape and use women only for sex and property. That makes him a rapists cheerleader. Now how pathetic is that?
Oh, he also supports incest with little children, and murderng them if they're bad to their parents.  He also encourages us to hate homosexuals.  So he's a child-raping, child-murdering homo-hatin' cheeleader.  Accuracy, Alzael, accuracy. ;)

Just the sort of guy you want to pledge allegiance to and teach your children about. 

After all, if one happens to be the sort of sicko that acually likes child rape and murder, owning women and hating gays, the christian god is just the god one would want to look up to.  &)
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #288 on: November 03, 2010, 12:12:29 PM »
You're right of course, my failure. Accuracy is always important. Now consider this, people like Phelix are gods cheerleaders. Now honestly, how pathetic is that?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they really believe?
« Reply #289 on: November 03, 2010, 12:51:44 PM »
Phel, I don’t expect you to have the bible memorized. But I do expect you to do a little research before saying “no it doesn’t”.  There’s a nice website biblegateway.com which has many different versions of the bible and a keyword search function as well as a verse search.  You want to claim that the bible is “entire body of work” which is the usual “context” claim by Christians.  And I know how badly those arguments go for Christians.  You all whip out your magic decoder rings and insist that some part or other is “literal” or “metaphor” as it suits you, no matter what the context actually is. I know the context of the bible, phel. When a particular Christian wants to declare that they and only they know the “right” context, it’s just as amusing as any Christian claiming that they know what God “really meant”.  But if you do want to consider the Bible one entire body of work, you are stuck with obeying all of it since the earth and heaven’s have not passed a way. But I’m sure you won’t agree with that, suddenly what Jesus said is “taken out of context” and you decide you can eat shrimp. 

And golly, you “concede” the marriage thing. Well, how nice, since I know it’s because you have nothing to show evidence that I’m wrong. Theists *always* claim that they suddenly dont’ have enough time or ability to actually put up or shut up.  It gets pretty funny since I can practically predict what a theist will do in an argument.  For a book that supposedly tells you all you need to know about how to please God, so many of you are so ignorant of it. I do wonder if you think willful ignorance will cut it with God.  “Oh sorry, God, I just didn’t know.”.   BTW, it’s not only in the OT where God seems to have an opinion of polygamy. 1 Timothy says that a deacon/elder should have only one wife.  Why is this spelled out if it was only approved to have one wife?  And I would also ask, if one wants to be a church leader, why is one wife okay when Jesus said that the best of them would have no wives at all?  It seems to be a contradiction, however minor. 

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I want to tell you that if God is fair, If God is Just, If God is holy, then God's judgement and wrath are congruent.  Will God meet your expectations, no, and he doesn't have to.
I’m sure you do want to tell me such things.  It does probably help your conscience when someone asks you directly “Is it okay to kill children?”  You won’t answer me directly at all.  We see no evidence for this god, much less any evidence of God being fair, just or holy.  Even his own bible shows this is not true. And God should at least meet what his supposed holy book says, yes?  If not, it’s just a lie.   

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  False, just don't have it memorized or just the parts I need to throw believers into difficult conversations.
I’ll give you that. You may have indeed read the bible but forgot huge parts of it, the same parts, not so coincidentally I think, that show your God as not what you claim him to be. I always sam rather confused by this, if the bible is so important, why don’t Christians make more of an effort to know it since their their immortal soul is banked on following it correctly.  Yes, I do know much of the bible thanks to asking Christians what they really know and believe.  I’ve forgot parts occasionally.  Did you know that the three kings didn’t get any where near a “manger”?  They found Jesus in a house.     

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This was not your argument.  You said, there is nothing to support the events of the bible, yet the existance of the wailing wall, and other cities, and kingdoms would be supporting evidence of the events of say, Solomons temple being destroyed, the herodian temple being destroyed, ect
Sorry, phel, but what I said was back on #234
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As for archaeology, there is nothing that supports any of the essential events claimed to have occurred in the Bible. NONE. No exodus, no massacre of the innocents, no census, no Sodom and Gomorrah, no earthquake on a certain day in spring, etc.
  As you can see, I said essential, and listed them. Out of all of the things you claim, we know that the Herodian temple was destroyed in 70 AD.  We have contemporary records of that.  The closest that the Bible comes to this event is this supposed prophecy “2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”  Which by itself shows that it’s wrong since there are more than a few stones still right where they were laid in this temple wall.  Another answer is that Mark was written after the event, but spiffed up a bit from reality. The First temple, as the wiki article and its source say, hasn’t even been found at all. The wikipedia also correctly says that this may not be the end of the debate since no one is allowed to actually look for it.  And we might indeed find some remmant of a temple but will it be Solomon’s so painstakingly described in the Bible?  Well, the scorecard so far on things like that says no we won’t.  But I’m quite happy to wait on it.  But you’ve claimed that archaeology supports the bible.  Where, phel?  Where is this support that would actually say that the events in the bible, those so important to the story, have occurred?  You don’t have any.  You try to use claims by long dead archaeologists as “evidence” but ignore anything recent.  Archaeology is about relics, phel, and you are sadly lacking.  All of your claims are just as much proof that your bible is accurate and your god is real as the story of Athena and Poseidon competeing on who got to name Athens.  As I said before
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Yep, we see that there are cities mentioned in the Bible that are real.  So by this any myth with a mention of a real city should be considred real?  Then we have the greek gods as beign real since they mention real cities, Spiderman must be real since he’s in New York City, every political thriller ever is real since they mention real cities.
     

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you may call me an idiot, but i never said it was ok to kill a pregnant women, in fact you can quote me as saying it isn't ok to kill pregnant women.  But my use of the word destroy, just happens to be the word used in my bible.
You did say it
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and to some people it is bad to destroy pregnant women.  even though I don't call it bad, others do, and therefore by definition some can say the bible teaches badness.
If you recant your opinion, that’s fine and I’m glad you do but please, phel, don’t say you didn’t originally say it.  It does say destroy in your bible, a lot of them do. I’ll grant you that. I still find it an odd word to use, but if you were just going by what it says,understood. But again it seems that you say again that it is okay to kill pregnant women when you say
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nope i am still ok with God's judgement and still don't think we have the ability to understand it.  I don't think it is ok for a human to kill another human.  pregnant or not.
  You seem to want to be okay with it ONLY if it’s God’s action.  You may want say it like this “I am saying it’s okay to kill pregnant women as long as I think God is commanding it and God seems to be okay with it even though I can’t claim to understand.” In that the Bible also says we understand good and evil like God does, Genesis 3: “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”  I would think either we would understand and be quite content with God’s judgement or we didn’t eat this “apple” and we’re stuck with modern human mores. I dont’ think claims of ignorance come into it if you believe in the bible. Which do you think it is, phel?     

 
EDIT:  And Phel, I don't really believe you are that distraught that I indicated that you said that the bible only teaches goodness.  Since you can't seem to answer the question "Do you think the bible teaches evil?", I really don't think I was far off the mark at all.   
  you say "indicate" but that isn't what you did.  if i say check with velkyn, maybe velkyn can tell you how hummingbirds fly.  would indicate you have the knowledge of hummingbirds, but to say, phel claims the bible only teaches goodness is more than just indicating, it is false, a misrepresentation and a misquote, something that is dealt with harshly in this forum and should be.[/quote]  I didn’t indicate that you said the bible only teaches truth? Let’s see, I said “Just like phelix’s claims that the bible only teaches “goodness”, which is also simply not true.”  You said “You have not represented what I said accurately.  I did not say "ONLY" teaches goodness, I said it teaches goodness.” So where *didn’t* I indicate e.g. to state or express briefly  you said it taught only goodness?  It sure seems I did. Now, this is why I said what I did. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16191.msg366430#msg366430 
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Let me explain.  The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl, or to legalize abortion or to take on many wives and concubines.  It doesn't teach to destroy anyone who gets in your way, or that the person with the most toys wins.  It teaches to love your neighbor, to go the extra mile, to give them your shirt if they ask for your coat.  It teaches to forgive and reconcile.  It teaches that there are consequences to sin and that governments should be fair.  It teaches that we should be honest and hardworking.  To someone who thinks that God is a joke, I can see how the stories can be far fetched, but what does it teach?  It teaches goodness.
   I may have been wrong and apologize if I am but I don’t think that I am considering the context of your post here.  You go out of your way to list all of the goodness, not one mention of the evil this book teaches.  To limit your selection it appears that you only think the bible teaches goodness.  And I have not seen you answer the question, do you think the Bible teaches evil.  This is why I think what I think. As I said, *if* I’m wrong, I’m sorry. And now that I’ve read into the thread, where you say “No I think the bible teaches what bad is, but it doesn't teach us to do bad things.” It is obvious that this whole bit of nonsense was just desperation on your part.  Sad that you would put your immortal soul on the block for such stupid little things. No wonder I don’t believe, even you don’t seem to.
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