Do they really believe?

[Anfauglir]

Whoops!  Just spotted that after 9 posts and 5 hours of memberhip, Whitelight has chucked his toys out the pram and is refusing to play any more. 

[monkeymind]

SO MUCH FOR......I CAN TAKE IT!

[velkyn]

Wow, we have two people who are Christians, and yes, whitelight, you’re a Christian, you just don’t like the term with its baggage.  You also want to fantasize yourself as having special knowledge about the universe. Unfortunately, just like phelix, you make claims that are not true.  You claim that physicists have abandoned the Big Bang.  Well, dear, show who these people are?  Making vague baseless claims counts for nothing here.  Just like phelix’s claims that the bible only teaches “goodness”, which is also simply not true.   

Let me explain.  The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl, or to legalize abortion or to take on many wives and concubines.  It doesn't teach to destroy anyone who gets in your way, or that the person with the most toys wins.  It teaches to love your neighbor, to go the extra mile, to give them your shirt if they ask for your coat.  It teaches to forgive and reconcile.  It teaches that there are consequences to sin and that governments should be fair.  It teaches that we should be honest and hardworking.  To someone who thinks that God is a joke, I can see how the stories can be far fetched, but what does it teach?  It teaches goodness.

But it does have that killing first born sons who don’t have a say how their rulers are acting is a-OK with God.  It does say that it’s okay to rip open pregnant women if they are your “enemy”.  It does say that it is plenty okay to have wives and concubines (you know, David, Solomon? God also kills David’s son for David’s “sin”).  It does say to destroy anyone in your way over and over again in the OT, to the point of killing everyone but the young girls who were then to be given as war booty to the temple and the soldiers.

It does say to love your neighbor, but it also says that people who do not accept Jesus should be brought before him and killed.  It does say that by doing good deeds to others, you are in effect doing good deeds to God.  But it also says that no good deeds are worth anything to God and it is just “grace” and God’s whim in choosing you.  It does say that there is consequences for sin but also has that murdering a child is just as sinful as picking up sticks on this Sabbath that no one can agree on what day it should be.  I dont’ recall wehre it says that governments should be fair, but it does say that *all* worldly rulers are in place because god put them there and thus should be obeyed no matter what.  It does say that we should be honest and hardworking, as do all religions, and again it says that no matter how hard you work or how honest you are, we are still supposedly “dirty rags”.  It also has God lying, so that honesty things seems one of those “do as I say, not as I do” things.  If you want to claim that your supposedly holy book is valid since it teaches good, obviously only occasionally, then that means all religious are just as good and as real as yours.  Do you agree, phelix?

I know quite a bit about the Perimeter Institute and I know for a fact that these theoretical physicists have not decided to abandon the Big Bang.  I actually read books from them, like Reinventing Gravity by John Moffat.  Really interesting stuff.  It seems like so many Christians, you also want to assume that no one would dare question the word of a “good Christain” and then put up garbage so it looks like you are being honest.  Too bad that we do look at links and we are familiar with real science, not the bastardized versions that purveyors of woo like you try to spew. 

As for archaeology, there is nothing that supports any of the essential events claimed to have occurred in the Bible. NONE. No exodus, no massacre of the innocents, no census, no Sodom and Gomorrah, no earthquake on a certain day in spring, etc.  No one can even get a consistent location for this supposed tomb that JC rose from and one would certainly think that would have been an important place, with angels, etc being right there supposedly.  That Naked Archaeologist guy is a shill for ridiculous claims. Nothing more. 

[phelix22]

Choice without knowledge is meaningless, plus again this has nothing to do with having the opportunity to choose anything.

They were not mindless, animals before the fall.  They were given intellect, were given the ability to communicate, to function as humans do, they were perfect in everyway.  What they didn't know was evil.  They had no experience rebelling against God.  The fruit if eaten, would give them the knowledge of that.  They had knowledge of the outcome.  There is no reason to believe they were like a 2 yr old who even though you warn them, or not capable of making a good decision and leaving the gun alone.  That is why your analogy breaks down, and why my analogy had nothing to do with the fall. 

 

You're trying to make the analogy of a parent disciplining a child, using low key and mild situations like running on gravel or jumping on the bed; hence the child falls or bumps into the wall and hurts themselves.  However, we are talking about the equivalent of a child, in a place where the comparison is to a tree that possesses the very knowledge to even know what choice is right from wrong.

this has been what you have been trying to say, not me.  I have been trying to say this whole time, that God has put a system in place where there are physical consequences for bad decisions, and there is eternal consequences for evil (rejecting forgiveness for sin). 

What good is a choice if I can't tell the difference between right and wrong?

it is no good if you can't tell the difference, but they did not lack that ability.  You have assumed that. 

  And God was not acting careless (like a father leaving a loaded gun with a child) because He had given them the instructions do not eat of the fruit of the tree or you will surely die.

And you could tell your daughter not to touch the gun, because they might hurt themselves.  Yet in their innocence and carelessness they do so anyway, because they are less capable and knowledgeable then yourself. [/quote]
innocence has nothing to do with carelessness or in their capability and knowledge.  innocence has everything to do with them simply not doing wrong.  Carelessness has nothing to do with this analogy, because someone can't be careless if they don't understand the danger.  If they understood the danger and didn't care, they would be careless.  which leaves the attributes of incapable and knowledgable which they were both.

Plus, you just engaged in an arbitrary rationalization to force biblical myth into a presumption of a conclusion you want to draw.  That is, you made up the rationalization to say god wasn't being careless.

  I stated my opinion, is that what we call arbitrary rationalization to force biblical myth into a presumption of a conclusion, and made up rationalization?  I call it what I believe to be true.

An omnipotent and omniscient being removes any chance of their actions not being completely and inescapably destined to occur.

Not true.  If God is all powerful, and all knowing, he must use that to influence man's mind in order for free will to not exist.  He must determine our steps and force them in order for us to not have freewill.  Just because He has the power to, and because He has the capability of knowing what we are going to do, does not remove our ability to choose.  Therefore, we can be in the garden, see the fruit and be free to choose to eat it or leave it alone.  Therefore, we can't blame God when we choose to break the rules, or to do what we want instead of what He wants.  A biblical example I think of is Jacob wrestling with the angel.  He wouldn't let go even though he was told to.  Eventually he was forced to, but if there was no free will, he could not have chosen to continue the fight.

Plus, 'free will' as its being described in the christian apologetic is a bizarre 'black box' that is virtually inseparable from another 'black box' that generates choices based on random chance.  To simply illustrate, imagine two black boxes, one A and one B.  One box has the agent of 'free will' in it while the other box contains an agent of pure random chance.  Now, allow options to be selected from each of the agents in the black boxes, please describe which one is random and which one is free will?

easy, the random chance box according to statistics will have a 50% kill ratio.  to murder or not to murder.  50% of the choices will say yes to murder.  the free will box will still have those who choose to murder as we have murderers today, but 50% of our worlds population does not commit murder 50% of the time.

he didn't force them to eat the fruit and then punish them, they chose,

Irrelevant, even if I gave you the benefit of the doubt that free will could exist under an omnipotent and omniscient being, their choice is meaningless since they lacked the knowledge and foresight to even reasonably make choices at all.[/quote]  your assumption, and since very relevant to this conversation.  if it is irrelevant that would be your arbitrary rationalization to force an atheistic view into a presumption of a conclusion.  ( i think, please take that with a grain of salt, i humor myself and no one else finds it funny, its sad but true, but seriously that was meant to get a chuckle only, no disrespect intended)

(in fact, the book of Genesis says, she saw that it looked good and was pleasing and so she took it and ate it).  Why would God be blamed for that.

Because god represents an agent of infinite ability and knowledge.  God knows what will happen, what could be done to prevent it, how to design it so that it isn't even necessary, and could simply create the 'end goal' situation that god is supposedly going to anyway.

Lets assume that God does know what could be done to prevent it, how to design it so that it isn't even necessary, and let's assume another trait of God, that he doesn't lie, that means he is pure, holy, and honest, then we must assume that there is no way of preventing it, that there is no design that will allow free will and achieve the end goal without creating humans like adam and eve and puting a forbidden tree in their midst.

[phelix22]

Wow, we have two people who are Christians, and yes, whitelight, you’re a Christian, you just don’t like the term with its baggage.  You also want to fantasize yourself as having special knowledge about the universe. Unfortunately, just like phelix, you make claims that are not true.  You claim that physicists have abandoned the Big Bang.  Well, dear, show who these people are?  Making vague baseless claims counts for nothing here.  Just like phelix’s claims that the bible only teaches “goodness”, which is also simply not true.   

and I haven't found any biblical teaching to be like that of flying snakes and the furiousness of the fetal lions.

Let me explain.  The bible doesn't teach to kill your first born girl, or to legalize abortion or to take on many wives and concubines.  It doesn't teach to destroy anyone who gets in your way, or that the person with the most toys wins.  It teaches to love your neighbor, to go the extra mile, to give them your shirt if they ask for your coat.  It teaches to forgive and reconcile.  It teaches that there are consequences to sin and that governments should be fair.  It teaches that we should be honest and hardworking.  To someone who thinks that God is a joke, I can see how the stories can be far fetched, but what does it teach?  It teaches goodness.

You have not represented what I said accurately.  I did not say "ONLY" teaches goodness, I said it teaches goodness.  So please, let me represent myself.  You fail to do so accurately.

[Dante]

Because god represents an agent of infinite ability and knowledge.  God knows what will happen, what could be done to prevent it, how to design it so that it isn't even necessary, and could simply create the 'end goal' situation that god is supposedly going to anyway.

Lets assume that God does know what could be done to prevent it, how to design it so that it isn't even necessary, and let's assume another trait of God, that he doesn't lie, that means he is pure, holy, and honest, then we must assume that there is no way of preventing it, that there is no design that will allow free will and achieve the end goal without creating humans like adam and eve and puting a forbidden tree in their midst.

If you're going to assume that, you're also going to have to assume that heaven has a very spartan populace, or that, by design, there is no free will there.

Which is it?

[Operator_011]

You have not represented what I said accurately.  I did not say "ONLY" teaches goodness, I said it teaches goodness.  So please, let me represent myself.  You fail to do so accurately.

Are you saying that the bible does teach "badness"?

[12 Monkeys]

maybe the sect that believes only a limited number get in is right? but that begs the question on why recruit more?

[One Above All]

The answer to the topic's question is a simple four letter acronym - SPAG

[phelix22]

But it does have that killing first born sons who don’t have a say how their rulers are acting is a-OK with God.  It does say that it’s okay to rip open pregnant women if they are your “enemy”.  It does say that it is plenty okay to have wives and concubines (you know, David, Solomon? God also kills David’s son for David’s “sin”).  It does say to destroy anyone in your way over and over again in the OT, to the point of killing everyone but the young girls who were then to be given as war booty to the temple and the soldiers.

 You are right that these elements exist in the bible, but what you have conveniently left out is that polygamy although culturally acceptable is not a Godly teaching, when the bible speaks of marriage it is of one man to one woman.  When the bible speaks of all these killings, it qualifies that the reason is God's Judgement on their wickedness.  It teaches that what we do doesn't just effect us, it effects our neighbors.  We can't claim innocence just because we didn't pull the trigger so to speak.  It stands true today in america, if you are with the guys who rob a store and kill the employee, you will be charged for murder.  Where is the hypocricy in that?

It does say to love your neighbor, but it also says that people who do not accept Jesus should be brought before him and killed.  It does say that by doing good deeds to others, you are in effect doing good deeds to God.  But it also says that no good deeds are worth anything to God and it is just “grace” and God’s whim in choosing you.  It does say that there is consequences for sin but also has that murdering a child is just as sinful as picking up sticks on this Sabbath that no one can agree on what day it should be.  I dont’ recall wehre it says that governments should be fair, but it does say that *all* worldly rulers are in place because god put them there and thus should be obeyed no matter what.  It does say that we should be honest and hardworking, as do all religions, and again it says that no matter how hard you work or how honest you are, we are still supposedly “dirty rags”.  It also has God lying, so that honesty things seems one of those “do as I say, not as I do” things.  If you want to claim that your supposedly holy book is valid since it teaches good, obviously only occasionally, then that means all religious are just as good and as real as yours.  Do you agree, phelix?

Not totally.  I don't know where it has God lying.  If you are speaking back to the flood conversation, we simply don't view God the same way, because you hold God to your standards or right and wrong and I believe we don't comprehend His knowledge, power, or justice.  But all religions is a hyperboly* but most religions do have postive elements, most agree on the basics of good and what good is.  But all religions are useless.  It is faith that is more important, and what is the effect of that faith.  All faiths can affect this phyisical life we have, but I believe what the bible says, that there is more than this life and in order to have heaven over hell, it requires faith in Jesus.  Which is why I posted on this thread.  because I do believe that.  

As for archaeology, there is nothing that supports any of the essential events claimed to have occurred in the Bible. NONE. No exodus, no massacre of the innocents, no census, no Sodom and Gomorrah, no earthquake on a certain day in spring, etc.  No one can even get a consistent location for this supposed tomb that JC rose from and one would certainly think that would have been an important place, with angels, etc being right there supposedly.  That Naked Archaeologist guy is a shill for ridiculous claims. Nothing more. 

What is the wailing wall?  Have they found evidence of Solomon's temple, the King's palace, writings of Solomon or anything like that?  What about the cities supposedly captured or the cities of soddom and gomorrah?  "there is nothing that supports any of the essential events...c'mon, making broad assumptions doesn't cut it in here, I would be slammed if i made a statement like that.

[phelix22]

You have not represented what I said accurately.  I did not say "ONLY" teaches goodness, I said it teaches goodness.  So please, let me represent myself.  You fail to do so accurately.

Are you saying that the bible does teach "badness"?

it teaches that soddom and gomorrah were destroyed by God for their wickedness, and to some people it is bad to destroy pregnant women.  even though I don't call it bad, others do, and therefore by definition some can say the bible teaches badness.  Same for any of the OT destructions. 

[phelix22]

If you're going to assume that, you're also going to have to assume that heaven has a very spartan populace, or that, by design, there is no free will there.

Which is it?

I don't know.  Heaven is something that is beyond words, or comprehension.  I mean, the one who claims the most understanding of it wrote the book of Revelation, and it is impossible for him to describe with words, we get emeralds and beasts with 6 wings and eyes and tails and horsemen, and sea of glass.  When Jesus was asked about relationships in heaven, he said, don't worry about it.  What I assume about heaven is that there will be no more sin.  But I do wonder, if Lucifer could fall, could there be another?  I just don't have the answer, sorry.

[cheezisgoooood]

It's reassuring to know you don't think killing pregnant woman is bad, Phelix.  I think I'm ready to join your religion now.

[phelix22]

It's reassuring to know you don't think killing pregnant woman is bad, Phelix.  I think I'm ready to join your religion now.

ahh, i am sorry cheez. I should have qualified that statement.  A few months ago velkyn emily and i engaged in a 3 or 4 week debate on the flood.  yes I think killing pregnant women is bad.  Yes I think killing people is bad.  What I don't think is bad is God's Judgement.  It doesn't feel good, I don't think there is a human that is qualified to judge the heart of a man, but I believe God can, and has, and will again.  But really to avoid rehashing a former conversation, ask velkyn or emily and they could probably direct you to the thread quicker than I and you can see how that whole topic came up.

[phelix22]

i am checking out for a few days, gotta work sometime during the day.  I love reading the threads and responding but I forget to get my work done.  So I will be back thurs or fri and try to catch up.

[Dante]

If you're going to assume that, you're also going to have to assume that heaven has a very spartan populace, or that, by design, there is no free will there.

Which is it?

I don't know.  Heaven is something that is beyond words, or comprehension.  I mean, the one who claims the most understanding of it wrote the book of Revelation, and it is impossible for him to describe with words, we get emeralds and beasts with 6 wings and eyes and tails and horsemen, and sea of glass.  When Jesus was asked about relationships in heaven, he said, don't worry about it.  What I assume about heaven is that there will be no more sin.  But I do wonder, if Lucifer could fall, could there be another?  I just don't have the answer, sorry.

Thanks for your attempt at honesty, I suppose. Though I suspect the reason you don't know is because you can see the logical contradiction, and it's impossible to reconcile. Illogical contradictions are prevalent in religion, and seem to be the usual gateway for theists to deconvert. Faith requires intellectual dishonesty. Some people are ok with that.

[cheezisgoooood]

The Bible has a lot of killing, and spends almost no time at all explaining why God needs to kill the people.  It just says vague things like "they were bad people."  How do I know they were bad people?  What did they do to make them bad?  What did the children and infants in cities like Soddom and Gomorrah do to offend God?  How about you explain it.

Me?

I'll have none of this, thanks.

[Operator_011]

it teaches that soddom and gomorrah were destroyed by God for their wickedness, and to some people it is bad to destroy pregnant women.  even though I don't call it bad, others do, and therefore by definition some can say the bible teaches badness.  Same for any of the OT destructions.  

Do YOU say that it teaches badness?

[velkyn]

Sorry, Phel, but your ignorance of your own supposed holy book is rather sad.  There is nothing in the Bible that says one should only be married to one woman and there is instance after instance where the patriarchs were all about this and God never did anything to tell them otherwise.  If it were not okay with God, why did he allow it and indeed encourage it? Christians like you want to pick and choose what is “cultural” and what is approved by God as you find convenient. For example, God gave lots of instructions on how exactly to treat slaves and Christians want to claim that God didn’t approve of slavery. What was God too impotent to just say “I dont’ like slavery stop it!” when he supposedly was able to say “I don’t like other gods, stop worshipping them!” What’s the difference?  Why doesn’t god remind Jacob that having Leah and Rebecca isn’t good?  Why can Abraham sleep with his wife’s slave? Why does the bible go out of its way to say that

“Deuteronomy 21: 15 If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, 16 when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love. 17 He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him.”

 Deuteronomy 25 has that a brother must take his brother’s wife if he dies. It wasn’t terribly common for Jewish men to not be married so does he get a second?  

Exodus 21: 10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. 11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.”

Lots of laws for something God either approves of or is incapable of changing.

And yep, the bible says that God is okay with killing, soldiers and innocents alike.  So, do you want to tell me that children are okay to be slaughtered? I suppose you will, since you will either try to say that 1. everyone deserves to be killed or 2. it was a “mercy” that the children were killed if their parents were too.  I’ve seen both from “good Christians”.  Funny how little girls can be saved for grown men.  And of course I can claim innocence if I didn’t do anything. You also seem to be totally confused about the law. No surprise there. If I was with people who were there to rob and there to kill, that means I wasn’t doing “nothing” and it is not guaranteed that I would get charged with the murder. Nice strawman but you failed.  I suppose you mean “original sin” but since I wasn’t there, blaming me and punishing me for it really makes any claims by Christians of free will totally worthless.  

I am quite sure you don’t know where it has god lying since it is more than obvious that for such a TrueChristiantm, you haven’t read your bible.  God lies to Abraham, God sends lying spirits to deceive people, etc.  I’m sure you’ll try to say ‘but it wasn’t god directly” But why does an all good being need to use evil constantly in his own works?  We even have God relying on evil to get himself killed for himself *and* god simply *must* release Satan from the pit after he ostensibly wins the war. You want to claim that we can’t understand god but 1. the Bible says we can, right in Genesis, and 2. Christians always pick and choose when they can and can’t undertand God as it’s convenient.  Oh, we can’t understand why this god seems inept and stupid but when a Christian wants to claim that they understand how God loves us and how he dispenses “justice” well, all of the understanding in the world is suddenly there.  And all religions isn’t hyperbole at all. If you’d like to demonstrate how it is, please do so. Your religion is no better or worse than any other, all with the same lack of evidence that they are “true”.  And faith and religion are the same thing.  I know, phel, you don’t like the idea of religion since you and your ilk have shat all over the term with your actions and your gods evident impotence.  I can rewrite the sentence “If you want to claim that your supposedly holy book is valid since it teaches good, obviously only occasionally, then that means all faiths, are just as good and as real as yours.”  You have all of the same claims and no evidence to support them.  Christianity is the same as Islam, as Judaism, as Hindusim, Jainism, Sikhism, Shinto, etc.  You can show no effect of “faith” other than what humans do when they believe any myths.  Christians are not better people not better off, etc than any one else.  You only have the baseless belief in a life after death, something that has no evidence.  And again, just like other religions. Most, if not all of them, also believe in this magical prize and none have any more evidence that theirs is the “right” one than you.  You see, phel, if your faith had any effect on this world more than another religion, I might care but as it stands you are all nuts.  

I don’t have to fear being slammed since I didn’t’ make any statements that aren’t true. There is nothing that supports the essential events of the bible. If you have this evidence of these events, present it.   The wailing wall is part of what is thought to be the old temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall)   We also have temples from that time period to a bunch of gods all over the middle east and the Mediterranean.  Are you willing to take that as evidence that those gods existed too?  Because that’s what you seem to be claiming.  No, they haven’t found any evidence of Solomon’s temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple) , David’s palace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David#Archaeological_evidence) , writings from Solomon from a contemporary source, etc.  There is no evidence of twin cities consumed by divine fire.  Yep, we see that there are cities mentioned in the Bible that are real.  So by this any myth with a mention of a real city should be considred real?  Then we have the greek gods as beign real since they mention real cities, Spiderman must be real since he’s in New York City, every political thriller ever is real since they mention real cities.

Its sad that some idiot thinks it's okay to kill pregnant women. I do love how you can't even bring yourself to say murder or kill but just "destroy".  

it teaches that soddom and gomorrah were destroyed by God for their wickedness, and to some people it is bad to destroy pregnant women.  even though I don't call it bad, others do, and therefore by definition some can say the bible teaches badness.  Same for any of the OT destructions.  

then you say

yes I think killing pregnant women is bad.

which is it, Phel?  You say one thing and then you say another when called on your vileness. YOu ran around the same nonsense in the other thread.  And you still are okay with killing women and children.  

EDIT:  And Phel, I don't really believe you are that distraught that I indicated that you said that the bible only teaches goodness.  Since you can't seem to answer the question "Do you think the bible teaches evil?", I really don't think I was far off the mark at all.   

[screwtape]

Are you saying that the bible does teach "badness"?

technically, it is not "badness".  It is "naughtiness", which is much, much worse.

[Nam]

Does the average Christian really believe?

Sure, they say they believe, but their actions rarely jibe with their beliefs, their biblical "rules". Is it that they have the "forgiveness" loophole, which they use constantly to justify their "sinful" nature? Or do they only try to believe, say they believe, fearful of Pascal's Wager?

I, for one, am not sure they really believe. It seems impossible to me that any being with any kind of sense and intellectual honesty could believe, truly believe in the fairy tale and mythology of an unsubstantiated, hidden god.

As a life-long doubter, I've never had the personal experience. I look forward to hearing from the converted and the de-converted.

My sense is: they think they believe.  I think most Christians[1] just focus on the "forgiveness" of every thing bit (except the tenants that state otherwise) and think that as long as they repent, that everything will be okay.

-Nam

1.	my opinion

[screwtape]

Jesus died so that anyone who would believe in Him would not die but have eternal life.  

Bold mine.  Why is that a necessary part of the deal?  Of what use is that to either an omnimax deity or its followers?  Particularly when said deity is apparently playing hide and seek?  This sounds like a scam, especially since you will not get paid until after you die.

Jesus didn't say, I will die for some if they jump through enough hoops.  ... But when we have faith in Jesus and repent of our sins, the scriptures say we are forgiven.

Bold mine.  Those are the hoops.  Why is faith in jesus H a necessary part of the deal?  I can understand being sincerely sorry (ie, repenting), but I am still stuck on the whole belief/faith part of it. Why is that a deal breaker.  You are telling me that even if I recognize my flaws and imperfections and I try to be a better person and I am truly sorry for the bad things I do to others, I'm still screwed because I do not believe in yhwh or jesus H.

Let me tell you what I find most offensive about many xians.  It is not that they wear their faith on their sleeves, proclaiming loudly to all and sundry the stupidest, most embarrassing things that a rational person with a modicum of dignity would do everything in his power to keep secret.  Nope, it's no that.

It is that they think their god is obvious.  It is the total lack of understanding of the idea that I find your god difficult to believe.  Instead, you guys act as if yhwh were a given and I actively reject it and I am some kind of immoral asshole for it.  I do not believe in your god because I cannot believe in your god.  I do not know how to force myself to believe something that I think is obviously false.  I cannot make myself believe in your god any more than you can make yourself believe in the tooth faerie.  

I have learned a whole bunch of things in my life.  Most of those things are demonstrably true.  I know my understanding of materials science and strengths of materials is true because cars work, bridges remain spanning rivers and gorges (if they are properly maintained), and buildings remain upright as long as some religious assholes don't fly airplanes into them.  I know my understanding of thermdynamics is true because air conditioners work, refrigerators keep my food fresh and rocks don't roll uphill.  I know my knowledge of fluid mechanics is true because ships cross the oceans and airplanes stay aloft.  I trust that other areas of knowledge outside my expertise are equally true - my computer functions, the lights in my house work, and medicines heal me.

When I read the bible, all the knowledge I have - which proves to be true on a daily basis - points to the bible being a mythology no different than any other mythology.  That is to say, I am unable believe it.  I do not see gods all around me.  Jesus H has never appeared to me.  I have never felt a "presence".  I have never felt warm and tingly in church, though I have prayed for all those things and spent many sunday sermons yearning for the figure on the crucifix to bleed or blink its eyes at me or sweat or give some miraculous sign.  

You guys tell me I have to open my heart.  Well, I have done that.  But still, I am left without a sign.  I would have to throw out almost everything I know -  ideas that I see work every day - in order for me to accept the bible as truth, and I just do not know how to do that.  Do you?  So what I am supposed to do?  Pretend I believe?

Do you understand?

[Dante]

Are you saying that the bible does teach "badness"?

technically, it is not "badness".  It is "naughtiness", which is much, much worse.

Are you sure you're not confusing your fairy tales? I thought only Santa had any say of the "naughty". :shrug

[phelix22]

Sorry, Phel, but your ignorance of your own supposed holy book is rather sad.  

 I'm addicted.  and I just have to try one more answer.  Funny do you expect me to have the entire 66 books memorized?  When I refer to the bible, call it a strawman, but I am referring to the entire body of work, not one selection from one book.  And yes much is made of polygamy in the beginning of time, but I have to go with the entire body of work.  But without 15 scriptures in my memory or time to go and look it all up, I concede the marriage for now.  However, please don't assume my lack of memory and time is ignorance of the bible.  Yes many have forgotten more than I will know, but I study and work consistantly to learn and know more about it and whats in it.

And yep, the bible says that God is okay with killing, soldiers and innocents alike.  So, do you want to tell me that children are okay to be slaughtered?

 I want to tell you that if God is fair, If God is Just, If God is holy, then God's judgement and wrath are congruent.  Will God meet your expectations, no, and he doesn't have to.  

I am quite sure you don’t know where it has god lying since it is more than obvious that for such a TrueChristiantm, you haven’t read your bible.

 False, just don't have it memorized or just the parts I need to throw believers into difficult conversations.  

I don’t have to fear being slammed since I didn’t’ make any statements that aren’t true. There is nothing that supports the essential events of the bible. If you have this evidence of these events, present it.   The wailing wall is part of what is thought to be the old temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall)   We also have temples from that time period to a bunch of gods all over the middle east and the Mediterranean.  Are you willing to take that as evidence that those gods existed too?

 This was not your argument.  You said, there is nothing to support the events of the bible, yet the existance of the wailing wall, and other cities, and kingdoms would be supporting evidence of the events of say, Solomons temple being destroyed, the herodian temple being destroyed, ect.  

 Because that’s what you seem to be claiming.

nope, I am simply claiming not all archeology contradicts the events in the bible.  

Its sad that some idiot thinks it's okay to kill pregnant women. I do love how you can't even bring yourself to say murder or kill but just "destroy".  

you may call me an idiot, but i never said it was ok to kill a pregnant women, in fact you can quote me as saying it isn't ok to kill pregnant women.  But my use of the word destroy, just happens to be the word used in my bible.  

then you say

yes I think killing pregnant women is bad.

which is it, Phel?  You say one thing and then you say another when called on your vileness. YOu ran around the same nonsense in the other thread.  And you still are okay with killing women and children.  

nope i am still ok with God's judgement and still don't think we have the ability to understand it.  I don't think it is ok for a human to kill another human.  pregnant or not.  

EDIT:  And Phel, I don't really believe you are that distraught that I indicated that you said that the bible only teaches goodness.  Since you can't seem to answer the question "Do you think the bible teaches evil?", I really don't think I was far off the mark at all.   

 you say "indicate" but that isn't what you did.  if i say check with velkyn, maybe velkyn can tell you how hummingbirds fly.  would indicate you have the knowledge of hummingbirds, but to say, phel claims the bible only teaches goodness is more than just indicating, it is false, a misrepresentation and a misquote, something that is dealt with harshly in this forum and should be.

[phelix22]

it teaches that soddom and gomorrah were destroyed by God for their wickedness, and to some people it is bad to destroy pregnant women.  even though I don't call it bad, others do, and therefore by definition some can say the bible teaches badness.  Same for any of the OT destructions.  

Do YOU say that it teaches badness?

No I think the bible teaches what bad is, but it doesn't teach us to do bad things. 

[Operator_011]

^ Therefore, you believe it only teaches goodness.

In which case, velkyn cannot possibly be mischaracterising your position on what the bible teaches.


Will you now acknowldege that?

[cheezisgoooood]

I'm addicted.  and I just have to try one more answer.  Funny do you expect me to have the entire 66 books memorized?

No, I think we expect you to know enough about it that you don't contradict it in your arguments.  Velkyn has clearly shown that you have not read enough of it to be an authority on the subject.

I want to tell you that if God is fair, If God is Just, If God is holy, then God's judgement and wrath are congruent.  Will God meet your expectations, no, and he doesn't have to.  

So your only argument, when confronted with the reality that God does many things in the Bible that are completely horrible and unjustified by any modern human being's standards, is that God can do what he wants because he's God, and we can't question him?  Even in view of the fact that you have no evidence he exists?  Sorry, why is it that you worship this abomination again?

nope, I am simply claiming not all archeology contradicts the events in the bible.  

Most of it does though.

you may call me an idiot, but i never said it was ok to kill a pregnant women, in fact you can quote me as saying it isn't ok to kill pregnant women.  But my use of the word destroy, just happens to be the word used in my bible.  

Oh we can quote that, yes, but we can also quote you saying that it is not bad to kill a pregnant woman.

nope i am still ok with God's judgement and still don't think we have the ability to understand it.  I don't think it is ok for a human to kill another human.  pregnant or not.  

So you believe in something you can't see, hear, touch, or understand?  You're deluded.

to say, phel claims the bible only teaches goodness is more than just indicating, it is false, a misrepresentation and a misquote, something that is dealt with harshly in this forum and should be.

You don't seem willing to say that the Bible only teaches goodness, and yet you don't seem willing to say that the Bible teaches badness as well as goodness.  Which is it?

[dloubet]

I want to tell you that if God is fair, If God is Just, If God is holy, then God's judgement and wrath are congruent.  Will God meet your expectations, no, and he doesn't have to. 

Does the god meet with your expectations?

The god puts a baby in front of you, tells you it's evil. Tells you to kill it.

Do you?

[12 Monkeys]

 would we call someone who is "told" by god to kill mentally ill?