Ah, TS, I see just more of the same. More lies, more trying to redefine words, more excuses, more claims of OneTrueChristianitytm, more ignoring of points, more strawmen. etc. Basically the same tactics that many Christians have used on this forum. I am always amazed that people who claim to be so beholden to God, are so unconcerned about their actions that would supposedly damn their souls. How many times can you ask forgiveness for your actions to an omnipotent being who knows what you’re going to do intentionally again and again? When does it become evident to such a being that you aren’t interested at all in acting like a Christian, but just getting forgiveness for not acting like one?
I’ll have to say that I like how you call the wholesale killing of other Christians a “family spat”. Wow, I sure dont’ want to live in your family. Rather than exposing even more of your nosense, I’m going to let this stand on its own as a monument to Christians who come here.
Again you have just demonstrated your ignorance wrt to Calvinism. Presbyterians dont believe that being one of the elect gives them a get out of jail free card. If you recall your days of TULIP you would recall the fifth point which emphasises perseverence - he who perseveres to the end will be saved. just because someone thinks that they are of the elect does not mean anything - it is by their fruits you will know them.
Yep, I do know TULIP, and I dont’ recall anything like you’ve claimed. I do recall basically this, which is a nice summation
You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return. http://calvinistcorner.com/tulip
Sure seems like a get out of jail free card.
You claim that Baptists worship with other Christians. Really? Then why are there Baptist churches, Lutheran churches, etc? If you’re all one big happy family, why the different buildings?
I used the word allegedly because I know that atheists are in denial and they get all sensitive about this partiuclar issue. Whenever anybody suggests it - they get all tissed up and says things like "idiot" and then try to make out that it was "amusing" or that it was "hilarious". If that makes you feel a little better - well good on you.
Wow, TS, you’re psychic? My you must make lots of money on how you can read minds. Hilarious when you again try to lie about atheists. I do wonder have you read your bible? You know, the “shall not bear false witness” and Romans 3 where it says that people who think they are lying “for” Christ aren’t welcome at all to God?
You say that “God made me believe” and then you want to say “It’s a choice.” Then you say that you “cannot choose to leave this view”. How can it be a choice if you *cannot* choose? Please explain that.
you answered this with
I am just stating what I believe. You ask a question and I attempt to answer it.
I know. It’s hilarious. You contradict yourself and you think this is okay.
And of course, when you claim that I “waffle” you first provide no evidence and then when requested you provide this
And as for waffle - that last paragraph is a good example of one. Thinking my thoughts for me and commenting on my thoughts that you have thought for me.
Ummm, how is this waffling? Do you even know the meaning of the term? Evidently not, http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/waffle?show=1&t=1288363530
because none of the definitions equate to what you have mentioned. I have made comments based on yours and based on the usual
Christian tactics I’ve seen here. I can see how you might take this as thinking your thoughts for you but I did not mean it that way, by the use of the word “usual”. And I know that people dont’ want to be proven wrong. But why come to a forum that is more than obvious on what it is and not expect people to try to prove you wrong? And, TS, there is no reason to admit one is wrong if one isn’t. You find something that I’ve been mistaken about and I have no problem admitting it. I’ve misread things here on the forum, I’ve been off on stats, I’ve unproven claims and when shown I’m wrong, I accept it, apologize and move on. Can you do the same? You’ve said that nothing will change your mind, that’s as much admitting that you won’t.
I also am amused when you say I should not judge you “by my own standards”. Really, why not? My standards are based on facts, my experience, etc. What else do I have?
I have explained what I thought you meant which is not changing the goalposts. If I was doing that, I’d ignore you and then proceed to address what I decided to pursue. You see, you decide the “sense” of what you mean after someone questions it. If you had meant what you have clarified, why not say that in the beginning? Sense doesn’t always come through a post, TS. It’s time you realized that. This is why I say you backpedal and you equivocate since you never can mean what you originally post. Now let me address what you have now said you meant:
I say that it is impossible for someone to become a Christian without God giving that person faith. This is why I find it an useless pastime to debate about God's existence or not. If someone were to become a Christian who believes in the Christian view of God - the Trinity - and leads their life in accordance with that belief - without assistance from God whatsoever - then it would prove that the Bible is incorrect. That is my challenge.
So why are you here, if, by your words, we may not EVER be able to believe? And if God gives a person faith, and that’s the only way that they can believe, how is it any kind of choice for anyone to believe? This leads to the idea that God damns people for no reason but his lack of ability to give faith to everyone. Since he requires this faith he gives, there is no choice and no free will. Your argument is rather cirucluar too. If God has to give faith for someone to believe in him, then it becomes that only believers are given faith. No way to tell and it becomes a TrueScotsman fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
I thought I had seen at some point you saying that I could not prove that God doesn’t exist. I may could be wrong and mixed you up with someone else. My apologies (see not hard to do at all). And proving that God exists or doesn’t exist is not only “dancing with words”. And no, I don’t “know” that. I know the exact opposite. It’s the analysis of evidence and of the claims that supposed holy books make. One can take refuge in the philosophical question of “can we know anything?” but most people are pretty sure they can know that a white-hot piece of metal in their bare hand is real and provable.
The fact that God demonstrates his power in the world before humanity either himself or through his son - in no way diminishes my arguement. If God appeared before you right now - you would not believe. If he turned you into a goldfish - you would not believe. If I were to provide a foolproof comprehensive logical arguement for the existence of God - you would dish out on it - using one of your tried and true patronising comments - "lies" hilarius" "idiot" - "moving the goal posts" " straw man arguement" - not answering my question - blah blah.
Here we go again. There is no fact at all. And you cannot know that I would not believe. I would believe if I had evidence. I used to believe and I occasionally direct a thought to God and ask for him to show himself, just like I asked when losing my faith. The reason I don’t believe is that no Christian can present any logical argument, that they can’t present any evidence and that they all disagree on what God “really means”. The commnents you find patronizing are comments with reaons behind them. They indeed are condescending because of your actions. I have no need to offer respect to you.
I will ask again, then what is your purpose here? You started your posts with declaring that your version of Christianity was the right one. We countered that and showed you your errors. You ignore us. Then you make this claim:
My point is not to evangelise you - it never has been. It is not to persuade you that God is real or that the Bible is true. I merely answered a question and then commented that my belief comes from God and that it is impossible for someone to know God without him revealing himself to them. This entire website is testimony to my belief and confirms it with every word that is written.
Again, we have a circular argument. You want to claim that this website is “testimony” and “confirms” e.g. proves how right you are, that people can’t have faith if they don’t believe and don’t believe if god refuses them faith. One of the other possibilities is that your god doesn’t exist and that you are a nut.