Do they really believe?

[dloubet]

People, you're arguing with a creature that agrees with its god that you all deserve to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. I don't think anything we say is going to convince it of anything.

Correction, "we all deserve....."

Ah yes, notice how it is anti-human to its very core. How can we even begin to reason with something like that? If it was human, and had things like empathy or a conscience, perhaps we could find common ground for communication, but tbright apparently does not possess those traits. No, its confusion of obedience with morality makes it little more than a zero tolerance robot. A thing that agrees that billions of human beings rightly deserve to be endlessly tortured.

I only hope it can serve as an example.

[JeffPT]

I said I believe because I choose and because I had no choice - and because there are many contradictions. Yet if I said there was perfect consistency someone would show me where it is not consistent. If I was able to demonstrate that it was perfectly consistent - then someone would use that to prove it was a sham- (if it is too good to be true - well it probably is not true)

No, no, life doesn't work like that.  In any other aspect of your life, if you find inherent contradictions in what you believe, you will immediately scratch your belief.  For example: You hurt your back playing football on the weekend with some friends.  Another friend tells you that he bought this super duper skin cream that reduces pain the minute you put it on your skin.  So you trust him, and go out and buy the cream.  The minute you put it on, however, it does nothing for you.  Do you stick with the belief that this skin cream works, or do you realize that you were wrong?  Would you continue to buy the cream week after week, continuously believing that it works, while the evidence contradicts it every time you put it on?  Of course not.  That would be dumb. 

On the other side of the coin, the things in life with NO inherent contradictions are the things we tend to stick to like glue.  For example: Gravity.  We know that if we drop a rock from a rooftop, 100% of the time it will fall to the ground.  It would be pure lunacy to think, "Gee, what's going to happen if I drop this rock from the rooftop?"   

It is only the arena of religion where inherent contradictions get free passes.  In every other aspect of your life, believing in things with inherent contradictions is a sign of pure stupidity. I honestly don't know how anyone can take your position and think it's the truth.  It boggles my mind.  You personally acknowledge that there are contradictions in your belief system, yet you can't seem to see that fact for what it really is.  Why? I don't get it.   

Atheism, if anything, is simply an acknowledgement of the contradictions and lack of evidence inherent in all religious belief. 

I believe in the Trinity. If that is not a contradiction to the rational mind from a western rock logic point of view - then I don't know what is. God is ONE and yet God is THREE.

I rest my case.  That's just dumb.  How can you stand there and say this, yet completely ignore the implications of it?  I will never understand that.  It's just stupid.  I'm sorry, but it is. 

/shrug

[tradesecret]

cheezisgoooood

Hello there!

I am not afraid to call something that sounds like mumble jumble to some - mumble jumble.  I have been a christian for most of my life and I certainly notice the difference between church speak and non-church speak. In fact there is also something which is called denomination speak - something that certain denominations only seem to understand.

I like how you said that many people on this site were previously Christians; but are not now.  I presume that you are meaning that they attended church - grew up in America - maybe said grace before or after dinner and prayers at night before you went to sleep.  Perhaps they even had a "born again" experience at some Billy Graham crusade or made some sinner's prayer after hearing some guilt manipulating speaker make an alter call.   Maybe they were christened as a Roman Catholic or episcopalian or were saved from all eternity, perhaps they ever were in a minister in a church.

And now they have come to their senses and turned their back on all of that as nothing more than fable and stories.

Well - good luck to you. You have your own theology and doctrines - one which is that people can lose their salvation or choose their religion.

And I certainly accept that is a common doctrine in the church today as it is in the world as well.  The doctrine that one gets to choose their own religion. The doctrine that religion is dependant upon what man thinks or chooses.  This is quite common - but not all people agree with it - gee some actually disagree with it.  I am one - (and lest you think I have contradicted myself - I will try and explain my position and probably with not much success)

I said above I choose to believe - which is true.  I also said I had no choice (or words to those effect).  The simple truth for me (and I am not saying for anyone else - although I think it really does apply to all people) is that God made me believe his unbelievable story.  I grew up arminian  - free will and all - choice and all - but then when I was about 23 it suddenly dawned on me that I could never have made this choice or decision by myself.  How could anyone willingly believe all this stuff and nonsense in the bible to be true? How could anyone worship such an awful being - arrogant enough to send his own son to die for me? How could such a God or being have enormous power - omnicience - be good and loving and let people suffer and die and lose a limb and not heal them? How could this be true - his son born of a virgin - be fully God and be fully Man? How could and why would he set up the world and let his perfect people sin and then die and then be tossed to the wolves or burnt in Hell?  How could he love Jacob and hate Esau? How could God find justice in dashing the little one's head on the stones? How could he condone slavery and perhaps incest? It did not make sense and yet here I was reeling with these thoughts and disgust and abhorrence and disbelief (disbelief in this sense meaning disobedience) and my problem was that I knew it was all true.  It was not that I was brainwashed - although I am sure some of you will think so - and yet I attended state schools, was never made to read the bible, never had to go to church or to sunday school, played sport and even smoked at that tender age. No human ever forced me to believe the Bible. My church was family orientated -but hardly evangelical - pretty liberal - the minister had a PHD in some science field and openly taught evolution from the pulpit.

Despite all of my experience and reason telling me that GOD was an imposter liar and indeed dangerous monster - I knew that that was what the popular person wanted me to believe. This was what everyone (apart from my mum) in my circles told me and mocked me about.  It would have been very easy to turn away from God and the church and follow the crowd - but for some reason - it did not sit right with me.

People say that Gay people are born Gay and have no choice. For me - this is how it is with God and the Bible and its truth.  Perhaps I was not born that way - although I was too young to remember. But I can honestly say from my earliest memories that God has always been a constant in my life. Can I prove he exists to you? lol!! I dont need to and I have no desire to even attempt to prove God. I dont have to prove that oxygen exists to breathe it and I dont even have to know it exists to keep on breathing it.

Interestingly though, after it dawned on me that God made me believe his unbelievable story - the way I viewed life changed.  I stopped dragging my feet. I went back to uni. Importantly though, the way I viewed Scripture and God in the Bible changed too. Now I choose to worship that God - and even though I would never have chosen him in the past willingly - I could never turn away even if I actually wanted to (which I dont).

People talk about God being all powerful as though God should be able to do anything. Hence if God wants to lie -he could and because the Bible says he cant lie - that somehow proves he is not all powerful. (I accept that some places in the Bible seem to make God out to be a liar - I am not arguing that point here) To me that is difference between my view before and my new perspective. I say that God can do anything he wants to do - but I say he cannot tell a lie. God cannot tell a lie because he does not want to tell a lie. (of course this presumes an aristotlian or platoistic view of knowledge that it exists apart from God).  To choose not to do something - does not mean that you lack omnipotence.

So now I choose to believe. This has impacted upon my life and certainly caused a few headaches along the way.  I no longer see God as harsh - vulgar - abhorrent - arrogant - cruel - needy - but I see him as holy and loving and righteous amongst other things.   

 

[tradesecret]

JeffPT

I am sorry but you are incorrect.

Religion is not the only area in life where contradictions or tensions exist that defy experience and logic.  I suppose you have never met a drug addict. One that continues on despite the evidence before him that the continued use will kill him. I suppose you have never attended a house of parliement where two conflicting and apparently contradicting pieces of philosophy are held high and accepted.  I suppose you have never noticed that the apparently contradictions of the unit and the many exist in our society in many forms - eg the right of the individual to liberty versus the right of society to be safe?

Philosophy - legislation - addictions amongst others - deal with the delemma of the one and the many. It is a contradiction to the modern western mind that believes that the law of self-contradiction is the axiom of all life. However, we - each of us - every day face this delemma - in things others than religion.

My view is that these dilemmas exist primarily because humanity has rejected the Trinity. The Trinity is the only system which says that the ONE and the MANY are equal. Socialism says that the state is the most important.  America puts the individual up as the almighty. Panthiestic religions promote the many as against the one. Islam and Judaism promote the ONE above the many. Atheism tends to - although not always - promote the State above the many - except when it comes to religion. The focus on the ONE leads to absolutism - black and white. The focus on the Many leads to relativism - no rights and no wrongs. The Trinity focuses on both and provides both right and wrong and freedoms. Hence - right from the beginning God said "be free to eat of any tree you like - except one. Parametres give life to freedoms. Freedom without limitations is not freedom - it is nothing.

These are the implications of the Trinity - and I happen to like the idea that at least it provides an epistemology for mixed economies. Theories exist - only for the Command system and for the Free Market system.  The mixed system exists but the only real reason provided by theorists is because "it works" and this is a pragmatic basis; not a philosophical one.

[OnePerson]

Religion is not the only area in life where contradictions or tensions exist that defy experience and logic.  I suppose you have never met a drug addict. One that continues on despite the evidence before him that the continued use will kill him. I suppose you have never attended a house of parliement where two conflicting and apparently contradicting pieces of philosophy are held high and accepted.  I suppose you have never noticed that the apparently contradictions of the unit and the many exist in our society in many forms - eg the right of the individual to liberty versus the right of society to be safe?

We consider drug addicts people who need help.
And no, people don't accept contradicting pieces of philosophy in parliament.  They argue which one is better.

My view is that these dilemmas exist primarily because humanity has rejected the Trinity. The Trinity is the only system which says that the ONE and the MANY are equal. Socialism says that the state is the most important.  America puts the individual up as the almighty. Panthiestic religions promote the many as against the one. Islam and Judaism promote the ONE above the many. Atheism tends to - although not always - promote the State above the many - except when it comes to religion. The focus on the ONE leads to absolutism - black and white. The focus on the Many leads to relativism - no rights and no wrongs. The Trinity focuses on both and provides both right and wrong and freedoms. Hence - right from the beginning God said "be free to eat of any tree you like - except one. Parametres give life to freedoms. Freedom without limitations is not freedom - it is nothing.

It's like you just attached random groups to random premises and conclusions.  I don't think you actually know anything about what other people believe in.

[Alzael]

Socialism says that the state is the most important.

Socialism says nothing of the sort. Socialism emphasizes the well being and abilitiy to meet the basic needs of all of the citizenry, and advocates that the best way to do this is through either public ownership or common ownership and cooperative management.  Some common forms of socialism reject the notion of a state altogether. Also Socialism is such a huge concept with so many different branches of interpretation and advocation that your statement simply makes you seem foolish.

Panthiestic religions promote the many as against the one.

This makes absolutely no sense. You do know what pantheism means right?

Atheism tends to - although not always - promote the State above the many - except when it comes to religion.

"Promoting the State above the many" doesn't make much sense either. The 'state' unless you're in an autocracy, is a large collection of many people. So your statement is so vague as to be meaningless, especially since the 'many' in your example are an undefined mass of people that has no apparent connection to the 'state'. And even if you do define what you're talking about in a way that makes sense I'd still like to see some actual evidence of the claim, whatever it is.

The Trinity focuses on both and provides both right and wrong and freedoms. Hence - right from the beginning God said "be free to eat of any tree you like - except one. Parametres give life to freedoms. Freedom without limitations is not freedom - it is nothing

If you have limitations then it is not freedom. Your statement is just a failed attempt to sound philosophical. This is like saying 'cold without heat is not cold'. What I think you're trying to say, in a rather poor way, is that we wouldn't value the concept of freedom if there were no limitations. This might work except your god doesn't care about our freedom or free will in the slightest, this is assuming you can even justify that we have free will by your religion.

As for the 'Trinity'. The Trinity is just an a really pathetic attempt made by christians a few hundred years after the bible was written to reconcile contradictory descriptions of god, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. Instead of just looking at all of these verses that depict them separate and that depict them as one and going, "This is completely inconsistent,obviously this is ridiculous." They say, "Obviously all of these mutually exclusive verses are true and it's clearly one of the things that we're not meant to understand." Like almost everything else in religion this is just another example of people desperately trying to cling onto what they wish to true, rather than to what is demonstrably true.

[Anfauglir]

The doctrine that one gets to choose their own religion. The doctrine that religion is dependant upon what man thinks or chooses.  This is quite common - but not all people agree with it - gee some actually disagree with it.  I am one - (and lest you think I have contradicted myself - I will try and explain my position and probably with not much success)

I said above I choose to believe - which is true.  I also said I had no choice (or words to those effect).  The simple truth for me (and I am not saying for anyone else - although I think it really does apply to all people) is that God made me believe his unbelievable story.  I grew up arminian  - free will and all - choice and all - but then when I was about 23 it suddenly dawned on me that I could never have made this choice or decision by myself. 

...

People say that Gay people are born Gay and have no choice. For me - this is how it is with God and the Bible and its truth.  Perhaps I was not born that way - although I was too young to remember. But I can honestly say from my earliest memories that God has always been a constant in my life. ..... Now I choose to worship that God - and even though I would never have chosen him in the past willingly - I could never turn away even if I actually wanted to (which I dont).

How interesting.  You are saying that - like me - you would never have come to belief without the intervention of god.  To me, there are two important questions you need to ask yourself.

1) Your mind was set against god.  Then god altered your mind.  On what basis can you make any claim about the goodness of god, when you already accept he has changed your views and thinking.  How can you make the claim that "he made me see the truth about him", as opposed to "he prevented me from seeing the truth about him?

A god that - by your own admission - overrules what you think tramples over any concept of free will, as well as rendering it impossible for you to be sure about ANY aspect of that god's character.

2) Like me, you would never have come to belief.  God stirred your brains, and now you are saved.  God has NOT stirred my brains, and so I will never be saved.  You also note that "people are born" that way.  Put those two together and - by your own admission, I do not have (and never have had) any chance of believing....and it is your god that made it so.  Your god is the one that damns me....and there is not a blind thing I can do about it. 

So when you talk of this god being "an imposter liar and indeed dangerous monster", you are quite right.  He damns me for what he made me, he picks and chooses who HE wants saved (based solely on his own whims).....and if those people recognise he is evil?  Well, a quick stir of their brains so they have no choice but to accept his word, and there you go.

An imposter liar and indeed dangerous monster ..... how right you are, and how truly your testimony supports that.

[gonegolfing]

Philosophy - legislation - addictions amongst others - deal with the delemma of the one and the many. It is a contradiction to the modern western mind that believes that the law of self-contradiction is the axiom of all life. However, we - each of us - every day face this delemma - in things others than religion.

My view is that these dilemmas exist primarily because humanity has rejected the Trinity. The Trinity is the only system which says that the ONE and the MANY are equal. Socialism says that the state is the most important.  America puts the individual up as the almighty. Panthiestic religions promote the many as against the one. Islam and Judaism promote the ONE above the many. Atheism tends to - although not always - promote the State above the many - except when it comes to religion. The focus on the ONE leads to absolutism - black and white. The focus on the Many leads to relativism - no rights and no wrongs. The Trinity focuses on both and provides both right and wrong and freedoms. Hence - right from the beginning God said "be free to eat of any tree you like - except one. Parametres give life to freedoms. Freedom without limitations is not freedom - it is nothing.

These are the implications of the Trinity - and I happen to like the idea that at least it provides an epistemology for mixed economies. Theories exist - only for the Command system and for the Free Market system.  The mixed system exists but the only real reason provided by theorists is because "it works" and this is a pragmatic basis; not a philosophical one.

Empty blather 

Your personal feelings and testimony of your own experiences adds nothing to the weight of any possible evidence for a god.

Also, you're making a massive amount of assumptions about incoherent terms such as god, trinity, et cetera... for which you have zero trustable evidence for and are purely your own subjective opinions.

Your claim that you feel that a god forced you to believe, is credible evidence of your credulity and lack of intellectual integrity based on the undeniable fact that you have zero proof to back up that claim. To avow that a god forced you to believe so that you could then choose to believe, is a feat of dishonest mental gymnastics that only a desperate and deluded proselytizing faithhead tries to pull off.

Stating that a god forced you to believe going against the very nature that it created you with and magically switching off your faculty of reason so to speak, to achieve its ends, is laughable and shows the depth of your psychological damage.


Why ridicule you ? Because your fantastic claims open you up to it 


You need to get serious with your real life.

[Agga]

Agga said:

That's a damn good point.  When I was a believer [irony alert] I'd have never smoked a joint (for example) in front of a copper, but I did it knowing full well god was watching, but it never stopped me. 

Now, cue the christians coming along and telling me that I was never really a christian in that case.   
 

 
Or they would say you were still "growing in Christ"...You were forgiven for your transgressions, and eventually would come to the state of mind that "sin" became less and less of a temptation.

Oh, they did.  Endlessley [vomit].  Of course this is just the get-out clause is it not?  That's why pastors who are adulterous or molest children[1] get away with it and the flock forgives them and sends them off to a new parish [more vomit].

That whole "forgiveness" thing makes it OK to slip up, even over and over again with the same things, as long as you are convinced that the Holy Spirit is working in you. And since you are a filthy sinner to begin with, God doesn't EXPECT you to resist temptation anyhow...so the fact that he sees it doesn't matter. It just becomes more fodder for the whole circular idea of needing forgiveness and Christ's blood making everything all better.

Very true.  Ever notice how the path to being a christian often starts with:

"All you need to do is accept that jesus died for your sins"

Then quickly turns into:

"Now you need to follow christ's example and turn away from sin (and give us 10% of your gross income)".

Then eventually it turns into:

"You have to commit to never sinning again and change your life, as that's what true salvation entails (contradicting the first claim and the claim that we will always sin no matter what), so basically just do what we say as we're appointed by god to guide you away from the devil".


It's brainwashing, in my opinion.  It's no surprise to me that believers think they believe when in fact they probably don't.

1.	Or as it's known in church circles "transgression"

[Agga]

This post is so far off. No wonder so many people are messed up. Your Christian doctrine is not even correct.

Right, because you do, no doubt.  You must be the one who truly knows how to interpet doctrine for everyone else, then.

Why don't you stick around to educate the hundreds of other believers who disagree with you, then.  That'll be fun for us to watch.

God's standard is, and has always been, perfection.

In which case, Mr very far detached from humility, as required by christ, you're fucked.

You are right that He knew in advance that people would fail to be obedient. That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself. He didn't have to do that. He could have thrown the whole world out instead of sparing anybody and been perfectly justified. You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

For those that don't like eyes on them, too bad.

Care to prove any (even one) of your above assertions Mr know-it-all?

Until you do, or can, everything you say is only ever going to be considered to be a steaming heap of propaganda.  Therefore there’s little point in me addressing anything else you say until you can show the evidence for your claims, or should I say evangelistic threats.

Run along now, tbright, go cry like a little baby in the corner and come back in six months when you’re feeling all jesusisized again.

[tradesecret]

Anfauglir

Hello, thank you for your response to my ramblings. 

I said that from as young as I can remember that I have known God's presence. My impressions in the first place were good impressions. Like many people I was taught God is love and God protects me and God cares for me and God saves me. God made the world and God sent his son to die for our sins etc. I never said that I was against God from the beginning.

As I was growing up - people around me from family to friends to my school teachers would all throw things at me.  They would say look God caused this to happen and God did that and God is an idiot and a murderer and they would show me passages in the Bible which they thought proved all of this.  Being young, I was impressionable - I listened and being young I could not answer those questions and naturally doubts crept in about God and what I was doing and what I was believing.

I never stopped believing in God's goodness. The many voices around me made sure I never forgot about his terribleness. Like some people I really wanted to weigh up what these voices were against my original impressions and like many people I would sway from one side to the other - pitting these voices against people in the church.  My mind was horrified by the thought that GOD really was awful and many of the things in the Bible just did not fit with how I was taught and yet there were many things which did fit. I went to a church where some people were fundamentalists and others were not. Some were dispensationalist - others were reformed - others were evangelical - some were liberal - others were traditional - others were eclectic.

If you read my words - I think you will find that I surmised that God made me believe the unbelievable and that I found it was not really a choice that I had. I am sure that was the point in my life that I started really growing - I am not saying that prior to that time I did not believe - only that the things about God I found horrible made it difficult to reconcile why I did believe.

My mind might have been set against God - but my heart (whatever that is) was not.  I did struggle - I did not and still dont have all of the answers. God made me see things quite differently. Many of the things I had been taught in that church were correct but with the typical denominational spin. It would say God saved me - but it was my choice and up to me. and yet contradicting this it would say - good works wont help you. But your choice will.

I would not use the term that God altered my mind.  I would say that God opened my eyes. Not only in the way I perceived God and the world but also in relation to how I saw my own religion. My mum was and is a baptist. Dad is one too (he was an athiest when I was a boy) but I have left the baptist denomination and left much of their teaching.  Of course - the Christian faith which is generally accepted remains - God is the Trinity and God saves and Judgment Day all remain. My mum still prays that I will change back - she says that I have left the fold and become liberal because I now believe in infant baptism and real wine in the communion and like robes and tradition etc.  Mum does not think I have lost faith though. 

You ask about the goodness of god when he has changed my mind.  My view is that people who care try and change you mind if they see you going the wrong way. Giving me a new perspective on life is wonderful - although sometimes tough - I certainly do not see it negatively.

I am not making any claims about God - that is your perspective. I said I believe that God makes believe the unbelievable. As for him opening my eyes and shutting your eyes - that is completely in accordance with scriptural teaching.  For God to overule my "free will" whatever that is - is not a problem to me.  Many of us drink alcohol even though we know if we drink to much it overules our good sense. But in any event I trust God so I know he wont do anything that is going to not be my best interests.

My God does not damn you. Why do you think you are so important that God is just waiting up there or wherever he is - waiting to damn you. What a peculiar thing to think.  I do believe in the elect. You dont even believe in God - so I cannot imagine why it would be a problem for you. You know I always find it amusing that people who dont believe in God devote so much time and energy in discussing God. Welll that is you choice.

My testimony only speaks to the fact that without the faith that God has given to me - then I would not be able to believe.  That I think is the real issue. People speak of faith with belittlement - and ridicule the simple who have it; but how do we get it?

How does someone drum up faith? It is not like you can go down to the local market and buy some. The local church does not have any in storage that you can collect or borrow.

I say that I have faith because God gave it to me. Hence I can believe in faith his words. I have often said - (not on here of course) that the most convincing proof that the Bible is wrong is for someone to get faith all by themselves in God. I have never ever met anyone who has acquired faith in the God of the Bible by themselves. You see - I dont have to prove God to you - there is really no benefit in it for me.  But you could prove the bible wrong - but so far I have never met anyone who was willing to even try to take up this challenge.  A very simple challenge apparently. Have faith in God. How simple - look at all those naive people in the world - obviously - it does not take a genuis to believe in God.

[monkeymind]

it does not take a genuis to believe in God.

Finally, something I can agree with!

[rev45]

I was skimming through your post and just had a question.

My God does not damn you.

Since you say that your god doesn't damn me could you please explain Revelation 21:8?

"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

I'm one of those unbelievers and according to this verse I will be in the "lake that burns with fire and brimstone."  Now I enjoy swimming but not in a burning lake.  So if I have to be in this burning lake for all eternity for not believing in your god, well it sounds like I'm damned.

[pingnak]

All the christians who lie in the name of their jesus go there, too, according to the same verse.

[Anfauglir]

Oh dear....you don't get it, do you?

My God does not damn you. Why do you think you are so important that God is just waiting up there or wherever he is - waiting to damn you. ..... You dont even believe in God - so I cannot imagine why it would be a problem for you.

It isn't, because I don't believe a word of it.  What I a, trying to do is get YOU to see how many contradictions there are in what you believe, how much mental gymnastics you have to go through to keep your impression of your god and being good.

Read your comments here:

...without the faith that God has given to me - then I would not be able to believe....How does someone drum up faith? It is not like you can go down to the local market and buy some. .....I say that I have faith because God gave it to me.

You are quite clear that faith and belief comes from your god.  Your god doesn't intervene, that person doesn't have faith.  Your god has not intervened with me, so I have no faith.  Your god, therefore, has decided I will have no faith.

And, when I die, by your god's rules, for having no faith I will suffer for eternity.

Read that again.  Because of what your god decided, I will suffer forever for something I have no control over.  Your words.  Your Bible.

That's the point your waffley reply conveniently skipped.  That if your god solely determines who has faith, then to condemn the faithless for HIS inactions is nothing less than evil.

You know I always find it amusing that people who dont believe in God devote so much time and energy in discussing God.

I do it mostly because there are so many people like you that worship a monster, and call it good.  And if that was a private thing you did in your home, then I'd have no problem.  But all those monster-worshippers are out in public, condemning, pushing for laws that meet their god's dictates.....your belief impacts on my life, despite the fact that it has no foundation.  THAT is why I spend time opposing something I do not believe.

[gonegolfing]

Tradesecret:

How does someone drum up faith? It is not like you can go down to the local market and buy some. The local church does not have any in storage that you can collect or borrow.

Wrong. Your brain is very much like a market. With shelves stocked full of ideas and thoughts and emotions and beliefs to choose from if you so desire. Faith is in the beliefs section of your brains market. God is in the ideas section. If one decides to pull the god idea off the shelf then they immediately must go to the beliefs section and grab some faith off the shelf to make the idea of a god believable to their minds. Since there's no tangible or physical connection possible between the two shelf choices, the compatible check feature of your brain, the faculty of reason, tells you that this is not a very good idea and that there's something wrong here.

But along comes the emotions and spoils everything. The fear of death and wishful deluded thinking usurp the power of the faculty of reason in some, and their brain at that point is powerless and abused.

The church helps keep the faith shelves stocked in the brains of the deluded and wishful thinkers.

[velkyn]

Tradesecret,

Your post is pretty typical of Christians coming here, the usual backpedaling, etc.  Do you understand why I think it’s nonsense when you claim to “have known God’s presence”?  It’s because all theists, of any religion, claim the same thing. Are all gods true then? 

I was a Christian too. I was sure God was good and sure that I “felt” something.  But I could also feel that I heard Santa’s bootsteps on the roof too. Not exactly the best verification of the existence of some mythical being.  And what a bizaare church you supposedly went too.  Talk about a textbook example of how ridiculous religion is, when Christians are all sure that they and only they are “right”. Just like you.   

You have claimed this  “God made me believe his unbelievable story” which is, frankly, hilarious. What a great way to dispense with any personal responsibility.  Oooh, God made me do it.  LOL  Sorry, don’t believe it at all.  You found a myth you liked that made you feel good and you now want some divine excuse for accepting such nonsense. Religion is a heady draught.  You become the best thing ever, so important that a omnipotent/omniscient/ omnibenevolent deity is concerned for you and only you. I do love how Christians decide that they are so special and that everyone else, who God didn’t take a *personal* involvement in are damned just by that whim.     

I’m sure you wouldn’t use the term that God altered your mind

God made me believe his unbelievable story

but that’s exactly what you are claiming.  You’ve created your own religion, so you can feel superior that God has told you what he “really” meant.  You pick and choose which pretty baubles you find attractive.  and if your mom prays to her god that you’ll change back, I do think she thinks you’ve lost faith and are damned.  Why pray if she didn’t feel that way?  Why appeal to this god which is ostensible your god, to change you if you aren’t wrong?  You want to claim that God changed you and then you want to turn around and claim that it’s a choice.  That’s a contradiction, TS, you can’t have your cake and eat it too.  And comparing this forcible action by God to a human trying to change a person’s mind is just pathetic.  I do enjoy when Christians must depower their god in an attempt to make a poor analogy. 

You have made claim after claim about God, first and foremost, that God *made* you believe. See in the preceeding paragraph, no equivocation, you are trying to claim a fact.   

My God does not damn you. Why do you think you are so important that God is just waiting up there or wherever he is - waiting to damn you. What a peculiar thing to think.  I do believe in the elect. You dont even believe in God - so I cannot imagine why it would be a problem for you. You know I always find it amusing that people who dont believe in God devote so much time and energy in discussing God. Welll that is you choice.

As has been already noted, funny on how your bible says that your God does indeed damn people.  And I love your indignant whines about how dare anyone think they are so important that God is just waiting up there. Hilarious to hear that from someone who is sure that God is just waiting to force belief on him. It doesn’t’ surprise me at all that a vain person like you is sure that they are “elect”.  All of this whining about how you made a choice and then you come up with that.  And the reason that I choose to discuss God is to demonstrate how ridiculous it is and to demonstrate how ridiculous believers are. Christians are so silly.  None of you can agree on what your God really means but you are all sure you have the right answer.  We have Christians saying that there are elect or that it is totally free will; that people are damned or not; that you need grace and/or faith and/or works to get saved; that god gives faith or not; etc.  Of course it is of no benefit to you to actually have to think about your faith, if you did that, you’d likely lose it.  But you have so much of your self-worth wrapped up in this belief that you run away, whining that “I don’t have to prove God to you.”  And that you have never met anyone who has taken up the challenge to prove the bible wrong is a lovely indicator on just how willfully ignorant you are.  I’m quite willing to take it up, just by pointing out that none of the vital events of the bible have any evidence of ever happening and plenty of evidence to the contrary. 

And you’re right, it definitely doesn’t take a genius to believe in God.  Nice appeal to a fallacy, http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html,  there, TS.   

[phelix22]

I believe.  I was raised in a Christian home and taught the bible, but it wasn't until I experienced what my limited vocabulary would call conviction.  It wasn't guilt, it was a realization that my life didn't line up with God's plan, as much of it as I knew (from former bible studies).  I was living by my rules and a life void of any submission to the teachings and commands of God as lined out in the bible.  I began to pray and ask for forgiveness, I truly repented, in the sense that my life radically changed that day.  I no longer had the desire to smoke (2 packs a day), to drink (i would pass out most days - bartender and bestfriend owned the bar), to cuss it was my only language of expression, and to womanize (my goal was to never go a day without sex with a girl).  My desires became to live by what God's word taught, to love others, to forgive, to abstain from sex till marriage, to abstain from all appearances of evil, to try and tame the tongue, to treat my body like I would the temple of God, not to destroy it or defame it.  Now that doesn't mean I always succeeded in living the perfect Christian life, but the Gospel doesn't fix your sinful nature, it covers it.  The proof of one's faith should be seen in how they live their life, but not condemned for every mistake.  I believe that God did send Jesus, to die for my sins.  I don't have any doubt to the truth of the story or to the truth of my salvation, or the truth of scriptures, what I don't believe is that I can express or argue my belief in such a way as to convince anyone.  But I do believe, I choose to believe, and am convinced.

[Alzael]

^^^^ You know this would be much more interesting if you actually had something to say that didn't come from the 'random christian slogan' generator. The whole 'personal anectdote, personal anectdote, I was a horrible person until I got zapped by the god beam, now I live to snuggle children and pet kittens, but I'm still not perfect, I believe in god because I believe, Derby-derby-derby doo" thing is a little trite and overdone. How about something with substance, as a personal favour to me? Or if nothing else as a nod towards being original.

[phelix22]

my answer is what it is, it is my reply to dante's original post.  It isn't some manufactured quaint christian slogan or bumpersticker regurgitated for your pleasure or displeasure.  It is my testimony.  If i were sworn to give account of what happened that day, I could add more detail to the words used in my prayer, but it would not change what happened in my life.  If someone were to have a near death experience, would you have the same ridicule for them expressing how their life was changed by what happened in their life that day? no matter how similar it might sound to other persons with near death experiences.

[Alzael]

^^^^ If they claimed that their near-death experience was the doing of a fictional character, a fictional character who they think is a god, for absolutely no reason other than their own desire or willingness to believe, then yes. Of course I would have the same ridicule, because that's all it deserves. It doesn't warrant any serious consideration because it has nothing to seriously consider. It has no evidence, no proof, no way of determining fact from fiction and in no way is it discernible from being mentally ill.

[Dante]

Hi phelix,

I believe.  I was raised in a Christian home and taught the bible, but it wasn't until I experienced what my limited vocabulary would call conviction.  It wasn't guilt, it was a realization that my life didn't line up with God's plan, as much of it as I knew (from former bible studies).  I was living by my rules and a life void of any submission to the teachings and commands of God as lined out in the bible.  I began to pray and ask for forgiveness, I truly repented, in the sense that my life radically changed that day.  I no longer had the desire to smoke (2 packs a day), to drink (i would pass out most days - bartender and bestfriend owned the bar), to cuss it was my only language of expression, and to womanize (my goal was to never go a day without sex with a girl).

Why do you suppose you had this "conviction" only after realizing you were living a self-destructive lifestyle? Why not before you realized it, while you were enjoying it? Could it be because you realized that you needed help, and since you were raised the way you were, that's the way you turned? So, in turn, Christainity became your new crutch, your new addiction, your new non-self-destructive lifestyle?

My desires became to live by what God's word taught, to love others, to forgive, to abstain from sex till marriage, to abstain from all appearances of evil, to try and tame the tongue, to treat my body like I would the temple of God, not to destroy it or defame it.  Now that doesn't mean I always succeeded in living the perfect Christian life, but the Gospel doesn't fix your sinful nature, it covers it. The proof of one's faith should be seen in how they live their life, but not condemned for every mistake.  

Man, you gotta love those loopholes!  

I believe that God did send Jesus, to die for my sins.  I don't have any doubt to the truth of the story or to the truth of my salvation, or the truth of scriptures, what I don't believe is that I can express or argue my belief in such a way as to convince anyone.  But I do believe, I choose to believe, and am convinced.

Not to question your sincerity, but I don't think one can choose to believe anything, and be utterly convinced. I would be surprised if any atheist here can choose to believe in god. It's not a choice to not believe, and I doubt it's a choice to believe.

[Alzael]

 My desires became to live by what God's word taught, to love others, to forgive, to abstain from sex till marriage, to abstain from all appearances of evil, to try and tame the tongue, to treat my body like I would the temple of God, not to destroy it or defame it.  Now that doesn't mean I always succeeded in living the perfect Christian life, but the Gospel doesn't fix your sinful nature, it covers it. The proof of one's faith should be seen in how they live their life, but not condemned for every mistake.  

It's interesting how this effectively excuses just about everything isn't it? As long as you believe in god you get to still do bad things, after all you're not perfect, but he forgives you as long as you dance to his tune like a trained monkey. In fact, not being perfect you really can't live up to those expectations can you? Yet you're still punished for them, unless you go the dancing monkey route.

Edit: Actually as long as we're analyzing this, you believe that god sent Jesus down here to die for our sins. Let's set aside the fact that Jesus didn't really suffer or die and focus on the general concept. God was the one who condemned us in the first place. Rather than just saying "My bad, all is forgiven" he comes up with a complex plan to sacrifice himself to pay off the debt that is owed to himself. Is it any wonder this gets ridiculed?

[phelix22]

It's interesting how this effectively excuses just about everything isn't it? As long as you believe in god you get to still do bad things, after all you're not perfect, but he forgives you as long as you dance to his tune like a trained monkey. In fact, not being perfect you really can't live up to those expectations can you? Yet you're still punished for them, unless you go the dancing monkey route.

It isn't just interesting, it isn't fair.  I should pay for everyone of my sins, but because God forgave me, I don't, not that they didn't go unpunished, but that someone else took that punishment for me.  It's not because I believe in God that i still get to do bad things, it is just a fact of life, that humans are not able to be perfect.  That doesn't excuse it, there is no loophole, no sin goes unpunished.  And if this God was such a bad God, then why make forgiveness available to anyone? 

Edit: Actually as long as we're analyzing this, you believe that god sent Jesus down here to die for our sins. Let's set aside the fact that Jesus didn't really suffer or die and focus on the general concept. God was the one who condemned us in the first place. Rather than just saying "My bad, all is forgiven" he comes up with a complex plan to sacrifice himself to pay off the debt that is owed to himself. Is it any wonder this gets ridiculed?

Hard to set aside 1) there is no factual evidence that Jesus did not exist.  2) no factual evidence that He didn't suffer  3) no factual evidence He didn't die. 
But many like to argue the resurrection part.  Many like to argue the "he was God" part.  It was not God who condemned us, it was God who condemned sin according to scripture.  Also accordingly it says, if anyone believes he is not condemned but for those who reject him they are condemned already.  pop culture says God condemns us for being us.  Truth of scripture says, sin is the reason for condemnation, not humanity.  If God said all humans are condemned, then Jesus would have been as well.  And if He says,"my bad, all is forgiven", without punishing sin, then he is not a just God, nor a fair God.  my little four year old wants to hit her sister, and then not get in trouble, but if I am a good parent I will discipline her and teach her there are consequences for bad behavior. 

[Agga]

my little four year old wants to hit her sister, and then not get in trouble, but if I am a good parent I will discipline her and teach her there are consequences for bad behavior. 

Do those consequences include torturing her for all eternity if she doesn't do everything you say?

[phelix22]

Hi phelix,
Why do you suppose you had this "conviction" only after realizing you were living a self-destructive lifestyle? Why not before you realized it, while you were enjoying it? Could it be because you realized that you needed help, and since you were raised the way you were, that's the way you turned? So, in turn, Christainity became your new crutch, your new addiction, your new non-self-destructive lifestyle?

Anyone familiar with addiction will tell you, that true change doesn't happen by chance or a change in the wind velocity.  I was not looking for change or seeking a different way of life.  Instead, I was driving down the road, and I remembered the story of Achan.  An Israelite family who hid some plunder in their tent that God had commanded them to not take.  Because of their sin, they were unable to capture a much smaller AI.  I realized that i was living like God didn't care or know about my sin.  My life was radically changed after I began to pray and confess, and to turn everything over to Him.  If I had my way that day, I would have just shrugged it off and still made happy hour.

Not to question your sincerity, but I don't think one can choose to believe anything, and be utterly convinced. I would be surprised if any atheist here can choose to believe in god. It's not a choice to not believe, and I doubt it's a choice to believe.

Good point.  I think we are faced with things and we either choose to accept it as truth or not.  I was faced with the Gospel and chose to accept it as truth.  Others have chosen to reject it as myth or make believe.  Is that not a choice?  That's kind of the perspective I was trying to communicate.

[phelix22]

Do those consequences include torturing her for all eternity if she doesn't do everything you say?

No they do not.  1) I am not a Holy God, who is the judge of Sin.  2)  I am not disciplining her for sin, but for bad behavior.  3) God disciplines those he loves, the bible says, and not all discipline from God includes eternal torture.  Just ask Peter, or Moses, Or Abraham, or Adam and Eve, Or Cain, ect.  

[Dante]

Anyone familiar with addiction will tell you, that true change doesn't happen by chance or a change in the wind velocity.  I was not looking for change or seeking a different way of life  <snip>  I realized that i was living like God didn't care or know about my sin.  My life was radically changed after I began to pray and confess, and to turn everything over to Him. 

So, you didn't have any desire to alter your lifestyle? And if it didn't happen by chance, to what are you attributing it?

Bcause, frankly, the only other option I can see is that god reached into you and touched you, altered your free will, as it were. Agree? Disagree?

Why wont god do that for everyone?

Good point.  I think we are faced with things and we either choose to accept it as truth or not.  I was faced with the Gospel and chose to accept it as truth.  Others have chosen to reject it as myth or make believe.  Is that not a choice? 

No. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I can't choose to believe they be true, any more than I can choose to believe Harry Potter is true.

[Alzael]

It isn't just interesting, it isn't fair.  I should pay for everyone of my sins, but because God forgave me, I don't, not that they didn't go unpunished, but that someone else took that punishment for me.

Exactly, you have this mythology set up in your mind where your sins are paid for you. You believe that your sins are taken from you, rather than having to bear them yourself. This is all a creation of your own mind to excuse yourself.

And if this God was such a bad God, then why make forgiveness available to anyone?

The forgiveness isn't available to anyone. It's only available to those who do the monkey dance. A better queation would be 'If this god is such a good god, why punish people eternally at all?" Why not just forgive them, or give them a punishment less draconian?

1) there is no factual evidence that Jesus did not exist.

Faulty logic, not that I had many expectations as far as logic was concerned. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim. Without evidence to prove that Jesus did exist, of which there is none, the only rational conclusion is that he didn't.

2) no factual evidence that He didn't suffer

No factual evidence that he did suffer either. Especially when one considers that if he were a representation of god there's no reason why he would actually suffer. There's nothing to stop him from simply not feeling pain if he wanted to.

3) no factual evidence He didn't die.  

Same as above, no evidence that he did die, or even that he lived. All that happened to Jesus is that he resurrected himself a few days later, then went up to party in heaven. So essentially Jesus at worst had a bad couple of days for us. Consider me underwhelmed.

And if He says,"my bad, all is forgiven", without punishing sin, then he is not a just God, nor a fair God.  my little four year old wants to hit her sister, and then not get in trouble, but if I am a good parent I will discipline her and teach her there are consequences for bad behavior.  

If you were an all-powerful being then you would have no need to punish her. If all you wanted was to teach her to be good you could do that without doing anything bad or unpleasant to her. You certainly wouldn't have to throw her a pit of fire. Anything you wanted to do or to her could be done without any need for punishment, unless you just got kicks out of punishing your children. Also since you created everything, you created sin. You gave her the capacity for sin and to engage in bad behaviour, you didn't have to. Being all-knowing you knew she would commit the sin when you gave her the ability. This would make you the one responsible for when your daughter did something wrong, at least for the most part.