Do they really believe?

[tbright]

tbright, you want to comment on my post?

You don't like His justice - oh well. He didn't ask your opinion. It's His creation, and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

Since you brought up the parent analogy, I'm curious; do you think a child should obey his/her parents, no matter what?

If yes, then would you be willing to say that it is OK for someone to get themselves killed, as long as it's what their parents told them to do?
(after all, this is supposely, what's  happened with Jesus and his daddy)

If no, then do you admit your analogy falls apart?

Your quotes got hosed somehow.

We are only liable for what we do. We cannot sin, then attempt to justify our actions.

A child is commanded to Honor his/her Father and Mother. HOWEVER, if anyone ever attempts to take advantage of this honor by leading someone into sin (for example) or by contradicting God's Holy Word, then the child would have a first allegience to God rather than his/her parents. The first commandment is first for a reason. Honoring parents is number five.

The analogy stands because there is no higher authority than God.

[William]

Who said anything about Him being happy? He commanded you to worship Him. Either you will do that with a loving heart (as a child loves a parent) or you won't. But either way, you will do it. I promise you.

This is bizarre - my supposed Creator who knows how my mind works commands me to kiss His ass while He's inconsistent and repugnant.  That's love!?

But never mind Tony, you can excuse your God all you like, quote as much biblical man-made waffle as you like - it doesn't make Him real.

[Aaron123]

Your quotes got hosed somehow.

We are only liable for what we do. We cannot sin, then attempt to justify our actions.

A child is commanded to Honor his/her Father and Mother. HOWEVER, if anyone ever attempts to take advantage of this honor by leading someone into sin (for example) or by contradicting God's Holy Word, then the child would have a first allegience to God rather than his/her parents. The first commandment is first for a reason. Honoring parents is number five.

In short, the analogy falls apart because there are times when a child should disobey their parents.

Yet, here:

The analogy stands because there is no higher authority than God.

You try to go around this by backing it up with woo.  This is so typical of you tbright.  You type in a lot of words, mostly padded with woo; yet you say little of actual substance.

[Astreja]

You are right that He knew in advance that people would fail to be obedient. That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself.

What a stupid way to run a universe.  Seriously.

..and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

You're absolutely wrong about that, Tbright.  I have never in all my life required "obedience and faithfulness" from my now-adult daughter, nor do I believe in physical punishment of disobedient children.

And doesn't it bother you even a bit that your alleged god wants dependent, helpless children rather than self-actualizing and independent adults?  If I were a creator-god, I would specifically train My offspring in how to become gods themselves.

[dloubet]

People, you're arguing with a creature that agrees with its god that you all deserve to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. I don't think anything we say is going to convince it of anything.

[tbright]

tbright -

so just to get this right - are you suggesting that you are perfect?

and that you do not sin?

The standard is perfection.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

We have to be presented as perfect to enter heaven.

"We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ."
Colossians 1:28

We cannot enter heaven by our righteous deeds.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

I am only perfect in the sense that through faith Christ has perfected me. It's not about me; it's all about Him. This perfection is a gift from God to all those who receive it. Christ has freed us from the law.

"because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death."
Romans 8:2

[tbright]

People, you're arguing with a creature that agrees with its god that you all deserve to be tortured forever in a lake of fire. I don't think anything we say is going to convince it of anything.

Correction, "we all deserve....."

[tbright]

Your quotes got hosed somehow.

We are only liable for what we do. We cannot sin, then attempt to justify our actions.

A child is commanded to Honor his/her Father and Mother. HOWEVER, if anyone ever attempts to take advantage of this honor by leading someone into sin (for example) or by contradicting God's Holy Word, then the child would have a first allegience to God rather than his/her parents. The first commandment is first for a reason. Honoring parents is number five.

In short, the analogy falls apart because there are times when a child should disobey their parents.

Yet, here:

The analogy stands because there is no higher authority than God.

You try to go around this by backing it up with woo.  This is so typical of you tbright.  You type in a lot of words, mostly padded with woo; yet you say little of actual substance.

You're missing the point. Only if a higher authority directly contradicts a lower authority. There's nothing woo about that. Your federal court system works the same way. Do you consider that woo? Well, maybe, with some of their ridiculous rulings, but we won't go there...

[Emily]

tbright only wants to preach to us. Nothing we haven't heard before...

Here is tbright's entry into the WWGHA dictionary;
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=5767.msg128641#msg128641


and again his opinion of WWGHA;

http://www.christian-forum.net/index.php?showtopic=13213

[tbright]

You are right that He knew in advance that people would fail to be obedient. That's why in advance He created a way to reconcile the sinner to Himself.

What a stupid way to run a universe.  Seriously.

You're entitled to your opinion, of which, mine differs.

..and He demands obedience and faithfulness. Why is that so hard to ask? I'm sure as a parent you require the same thing.

You're absolutely wrong about that, Tbright.  I have never in all my life required "obedience and faithfulness" from my now-adult daughter, nor do I believe in physical punishment of disobedient children.

And doesn't it bother you even a bit that your alleged god wants dependent, helpless children rather than self-actualizing and independent adults?  If I were a creator-god, I would specifically train My offspring in how to become gods themselves.

So you didn't care if your child played in the street against your authority? Remember that authority is ultimately about protection. Either you haven't fully thought about the implications of what you are saying or you have forgotten some of the incredible responsibilities of parenting.

[Astreja]

I am only perfect in the sense that through faith Christ has perfected me. It's not about me; it's all about Him. This perfection is a gift from God to all those who receive it. Christ has freed us from the law.

Absolute nonsense, Tbright.  If Jesus ever lived, he's been dead for nearly 2,000 years.  Furthermore, it's ridiculous to think that one person can magically purify another.

Christianity is a moral abomination because it values faith above works.  It has nothing to teach humanity on the subject of behaviour, as its central message appears to be "Admit that you are worthless scum and agree that human sacrifice is a good thing, or I will torture you for eternity."

So you didn't care if your child played in the street against your authority?

I certainly do care... Which is precisely why my daughter is alive and well today.

Your alleged god, however, seems quote content to send people to hell for simple disobedience.  It is the very antithesis of a loving parent.

Remember that authority is ultimately about protection.

In the case of Biblegod, more like a protection racket.  There is nothing whatsoever reasonable, loving or even sane about the god that you have chosen to worship.  The more mythological blather I hear from you, the more I'm convinced that Christianity is the bane of humanity.

[tradesecret]

tbright - sorry to harp on about this but you did not answer my second question?

Do you sin?

I am fully cognisant about the fact that we are only declared righteous by God in Christ and that there is nothing of ourselves that can get us into heaven. But that is not what you are saying, is it?

You seem to be implying that we can be perfect here on earth - and I would say that the Bible contradicts that - see 1 John - Being declared righteous is not the same as being rightouess.

So my question to you is - Do you sin?

We do not have to be presented as perfect to enter heaven - that is not what that passage says - Paul does not present any to heaven-  Christ declares us rightious and in his righteousness do we gain passage or entrance.

And it nice to see you concede that you are not perfect - lol. and here we are - you worried about my theology - talk about the log in one's eye.

[Operator_019]

So whose terms do you want? Get right with Him today.

Tbright,

You are not new to this forum and as a long-time member, I would expect you are aware of the difference between debating your beliefs and proselytizing.   

Please brush up on what is expected from members.  Forum Announcements .

Thanks.

019

[jynnan tonnix]

jynnan tonnix

your response to my post was er well not illuminating.

If you did not notice  - I merely indicated a whole lot of reasons why I believe. I never said that any of them were the be all and end all. Certainly none of them are reasons why I would expect anyone else to believe.

OK, let's start over, then. I'll admit I wrote all that as I was on my way to bed, and it was pretty rushed and not completely thought out. I did understand that none of your reasons was the be all and end all, but my reply did not (or was not intended to) treat them as though they were. I was simply pointing out that each of your reasons had inherent problems or weaknesses in logic. They might, individually, work for you, and might add up to an overall sense that your belief is justified, but from the outside, just don't seem like the firmest of foundations.

I also simply wanted to be honest - transparently honest. I believe probably because my mother taught me - but not only for this reason. In fact I also noted that my dad was an athiest - but I did not follow his view.

I did notice this as well, and started a few responses taking both parents into account, but they each started getting overly wordy, so I went for the abridged version (as I said, it was late, and I wrote it in a bit of a rush) with the assumption that your father may have been of the weak atheist variety who simply does not have much to say on the subject, and therefore was not a big influence in your thinking. If this is wrong, I apologize. I would be interesting to hear what they each told you and how you weighed the pros and cons of each side before coming to a conclusion.

As for heaven and hell - I do believe in this things - despite the fact that millions of people dont or are horrified by the notion that some people do believe those things. The point is - it is one of the reasons - not the only one and certainly not a highly significant one but it is one.

I'd be interested, too, to hear WHY you believe in heaven and hell despite the fact that you seem to acknowledge that there are some horrifying notions in there. To me, your answer just seemed overly simplistic, and the whole notion was, to be honest, one of the main reasons for me abandoning any vestiges of belief I might have had. Any deity who has such black and white reasoning, and who necessarily damns the majority of his creation to eternal torment for things which are out of their control (where and when they were born, whether they happened to have a more naturally skeptical and analytical mind, etc) just doesn't add up to "loving". Your reasoning also verges on Pascal's wager territory, which doesn't tend to go down very well.

My whole post was in answering the topic starter and not presenting an argument. Your comments made me laugh because I did not imagine that I would find someone in here without a sense of the obvious.  Thank you for making me smile.

Even things which are obvious can have elements which can be argued. I'll grant that you were just saying, "yes, there are people who really do believe out there, and I'm one of them" in response to the OP...but since your list included things which, to an outsider, are exactly why belief sometimes seems to include a desperate sort of self-justification, I felt that each point deserved its own counterpoint.

In other words, it's precisely some of the things you mention which make us wonder whether you really believe, or whether you have talked yourself into believing through a fear of what will happen if you don't, or an unwillingness to look outside of a coccoon of comfort which is strung together with ideas that just don't stand up to close and impartial scrutiny.

edited to remove an errant quote command

[monkeymind]

T:
So you believes because you choose to and because you had no choice, etc, etc.

Individually each reason doesn't make a lot of sense, but collectively they do?

Sort of like the Wholly Babble, individual scriptures make little sense, but collectively its all true.

[Anfauglir]

Does the average Christian really believe?

Sure, they say they believe, but their actions rarely jibe with their beliefs....

Sorry I'm a little late to the party, but I'd like to answer with reference to the below...

So you didn't care if your child played in the street against your authority? Remember that authority is ultimately about protection. Either you haven't fully thought about the implications of what you are saying or you have forgotten some of the incredible responsibilities of parenting.

Unless I'm dramatically off base, the Christian god is everywhere.  Sees everything.  Knows everything.  Working on that basis then, anyone who believes in that god, and yet still sins and transgresses the law, is doing something akin to taking a cookie from the jar knowing that the parent is standing right next to the jar watching them.  For more serious crimes....it's like a criminal deciding to break into a shop while handcuffed to a policman, while several other policemen watch him from every conceivable angle.

I honestly can't imagine how ANY sin could actually be committed, if you really believed in an all-seeing god that is everywhere.  It'd be like abusing yourself openly while your parents sit on the bed, like inviting your wife to watch you commit adultery, like insulting someone directly to their face, nose to nose.

Now, I can see where one might say "ah yes - that's what atheists are doing!", but that's not the point.  The point is its what Christians are doing, each and every time they transgress even the most minor rule.  And that's why I can't believe that any of them really, truly believe.

[rev45]

Well said Anfauglir.  I do think that most Christians really believe but they believe in their version of god, even if it goes against the Bible.

[Omen]

Does the average Christian really believe?

I think the overzealous reliance on 'faith' as a qualification for belief is a sign of how believers, lacking confidence in their own beliefs, have to constantly remind themselves or others that through faith they believe.  It is even a type of qualifier projected upon others, as if everyone who has other positions also has to constantly remind themselves of the faithful truth that they believe in.  How many times have you heard a theist exclaim,"Well you believe in science out of faith!".  It is almost as if they already accept the vacuity of statements of faith, but having made faith a qualifier for their own claims they have to accuse others to avoid it themselves.  For example, a scientist ( or anyone for that matter ) that accepts evolution, doesn't spend hours going over every piece of cultural reference that contains a qualification reminding oneself of the truth that must be believed.  Instead, not relying on faith, there is no need to constantly remind oneself by evoking internal platitudes and concepts are accepted as true at face value.

[Truth Junkie]

IMO....Belief in something doesn't mean it's truth,as truth is subjective,
it's means there is hope that something is true and I am sure most religious
people hope and pray "god is real" so they can assuage thier fears.

Fear is a very controlling emotion and can lead to a multitude of defense mechanisms.
Including denial,cognitive dissonance,compartmentalization,rationalization,intellectualization
etc. to deal with the anxiety of the reality that god my NOT exist.

I am sure it's an internal battle for those willing to question authority.
For those you are so conditioned to "believe" there is no way to reach them
so let them live in thier delusion.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belief

How beliefs are formed:
Psychologists study belief formation and the relationship between beliefs and actions.

Beliefs form in a variety of ways:

We tend to internalise the beliefs of the people around us during childhood. Albert Einstein is often quoted as having said that "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen."
 
Most individuals believe the religion they were taught in childhood.


People may adopt the beliefs of a charismatic leader, even if those beliefs fly in the face of all previous beliefs, and produce actions that are clearly not in their own self-interest.

 Is belief voluntary?

Rational individuals need to reconcile their direct reality with any said belief; therefore, if belief is not present or possible, it reflects the fact that contradictions were necessarily overcome using cognitive dissonance.


Physical trauma, especially to the head, can radically alter a person's beliefs.


However, even educated people, well aware of the process by which beliefs form, still strongly cling to their beliefs, and act on those beliefs even against their own self-interest. In Anna Rowley's Leadership Theory, she states "You want your beliefs to change. It's proof that you are keeping your eyes open, living fully, and welcoming everything that the world and people around you can teach you." This means that peoples' beliefs should evolve as they gain new experiences.

To "believe in" someone or something is a distinct concept from "believe-that". There are two types of belief-in:

Commendatory - an expression of confidence in a person or entity, as in, "I believe in his abililty to do the job".
Existential claim - to claim belief in the existence of an entity or phenomenon with the implied need to justify its claim to existence. It is often used when the entity is not real, or its existence is in doubt. "He believes in witches and ghosts" or "many children believe in fairies" are typical examples.

Delusional beliefs
Delusions are defined as beliefs in psychiatric diagnostic criteria (for example in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). Psychiatrist and historian G.E. Berrios has challenged the view that delusions are genuine beliefs and instead labels them as "empty speech acts", where affected persons are motivated to express false or bizarre belief statements due to an underlying psychological disturbance.

However, the majority of mental health professionals and researchers treat delusions as if they were genuine beliefs.



As do the millions who reinforce religion with thier beliefs.

So yes....the really DO believe...but that mean's nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[ParkingPlaces]

Now, I can see where one might say "ah yes - that's what atheists are doing!", but that's not the point.  The point is its what Christians are doing, each and every time they transgress even the most minor rule.  And that's why I can't believe that any of them really, truly believe.

Excellent post Anfauglir. Reading your last paragraph I thought of my friend George, who is a true, true believer in the sense that he calls himself that, and he is a good person who does not do many things (as far as I know) that could be designated as sins, yet he is clearly very afraid of death because he thinks he might go to hell, or at least not be good enough to get into heaven. He believes, I think, but mostly the burn in hell part, not the god part.

Yes christians, he is "saved". But still very very afraid.

I'm thinking a belief in the christian god is as likely to be wishful thinking as it is to be a real belief. However I can't respond to the questions in the OP because I never identified myself as a christian. As a young child, told that there was a god and a jesus, etc. I assumed it was true until I got old enough to think about it.

Maybe that's the source of christian belief. They don't think about it.

[Aaron123]

You're missing the point. Only if a higher authority directly contradicts a lower authority. There's nothing woo about that. Your federal court system works the same way. Do you consider that woo? Well, maybe, with some of their ridiculous rulings, but we won't go there...

Higher court rulings are challenged all the time.  Just look at Roe vs Wade.  The Supreme court ruled on this.  Abortion is legel.  By your logic, no one should question this ruling.  Yet, this has been a huge controversy for over 30 years now.  Some even think the ruling should be overturned.  In this case, we can clearly question and make demands of the "higher authority".  Yet, you claim we cannot do this with god because... well, he's god, and therefore, cannot be questioned, mainly because he's a cruel dictator that'll torture you for so much as getting your little toe out of line.

[gonegolfing]

tbright - sorry to harp on about this but you did not answer my second question?

Do you sin?

I am fully cognisant about the fact that we are only declared righteous by God in Christ and that there is nothing of ourselves that can get us into heaven. But that is not what you are saying, is it?

You seem to be implying that we can be perfect here on earth - and I would say that the Bible contradicts that - see 1 John - Being declared righteous is not the same as being rightouess.

So my question to you is - Do you sin?

That answer is obvious. Yes he does, all the time...... Why ?: 1. He can't help himself. 2. The bible tells him he will. 3. He truly likes some of the sins he is committing. 4. He thinks he's got the ancient Nazarene to fall back on

He feels the man from Galilee survived his own suicide and now sits at the right hand of his daddy pleading for the willful mistakes that he makes here on earth in this groveling existence he leads.

He, as all others like him, believes in a god, but thoroughly depends on their Bethlehem barrister to make things right for them all the time, as they sinfully trod on towards the supposed upcoming eternal worship fairyland that they feel they have been promised. They're in court all the time as they sin constantly and so therefore have very little time to do the things that they are supposed to do and spend most of their days weeping on their knees before their defense attorney hoping he'll get them off the hook for their latest infractions.

Sadly, most of their infractions are thought crimes, which of course, the skydaddy sees all too clear and so they are constantly tortured by this as their minds are virtually impossible to control. They become habitual sinners and criminals in the eyes of the divine court and therefore become completely dependent on jesus H as their advocate. This is why the meek and mild one has survived his own death until today.  

Actually, It's quite pathetic to see them struggle with such beliefs.

Having been there, I feel quite sorry for them.  

Luckily they can change that.


 

[velkyn]

I also believe because I choose to believe.  I also believe because I have no choice. I also believe because there are so many contradictions. I also believe because believers in general are not arrogant in life (although some are arrogant in what they believe). I believe because the Holy Spirit persuaded me to believe without words and yet with the WORD.

Wow, tradesecret, amazing contradictory statements. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised since if you can believe in religion you can believe in anything. Each Christian claims that the “holy spirit” was behind everything but funny how that thing can’t get a consistent message through. The rest of your post was the usual OneTrueChristian whining.  It would be so nice if any of you could actually prove that your version is “right” much less that your god exists.

Of course then we get tbright proving my point.  You all are hypocrites and you all think you are special snowflakes that are the focus of an omnipotent invisible friend.  Whoopdedoo. 

[Grimm]

tbright -

so just to get this right - are you suggesting that you are perfect?

and that you do not sin?

The standard is perfection.

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48

We have to be presented as perfect to enter heaven.

What, precisely, is 'perfect'?  If you were to define the perfect human being, by Christian definition, what traits would this individual have?  If your impulse is to say "to be Jesus-like" in some form, what traits did Jesus have that make him perfect?

"We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ."
Colossians 1:28

We cannot enter heaven by our righteous deeds.

James 2:14: "“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?”  Apparently, that's not wholly true.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

I am only perfect in the sense that through faith Christ has perfected me. It's not about me; it's all about Him. This perfection is a gift from God to all those who receive it. Christ has freed us from the law.

Matthew 5:18: ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."   Christ disagrees with you.


Your scriptural evidence is weak, even before we get to common assertion.  No offence, Tbright, but.. you seem a bit off your game, here.

[pingnak]

Most of 'em go to the hospital and fight the cancer any way they can to live an extra few years.  They'll beggar their families to remain alive one extra month, even though ALL of it is in the hospital looking like a H.R. Giger sculpture.
http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=h.r.+giger+gallery

Legendary descriptions about how hard a believer fought to remain alive (though bedridden and absolutely hellishly miserable) against all odds.  Answering prayers to keep them gurgling and moaning on a little more, attached to yet another machine.

Hardly noteworthy faith in a divine afterlife of infinite pleasure and goodness after casting off this ugly and fragile mortal frame.

You'd think a lot more of them would have 'DNR' tattooed on their chests and file all the paperwork to collect their eternal reward right away in the event they end up 'mostly dead'.

[nogodsforme]

Unless I'm dramatically off base, the Christian god is everywhere.  Sees everything.  Knows everything.  Working on that basis then, anyone who believes in that god, and yet still sins and transgresses the law, is doing something akin to taking a cookie from the jar knowing that the parent is standing right next to the jar watching them.  For more serious crimes....it's like a criminal deciding to break into a shop while handcuffed to a policman, while several other policemen watch him from every conceivable angle.

I honestly can't imagine how ANY sin could actually be committed, if you really believed in an all-seeing god that is everywhere.  It'd be like abusing yourself openly while your parents sit on the bed, like inviting your wife to watch you commit adultery, like insulting someone directly to their face, nose to nose.

Yes, yes, yes. (Warning: Gross imagery ahead.)

Since the "wages of sin is death"  every single sin, even something as innocent as dreaming of stealing your neighbor's new car and taking it for a joyride, or imagining what Halle Berry/George Clooney looks like naked, is just like an illegal immigrant committing serial cold blooded rape-torture-murder of an entire preschool of cute white toddlers during half-time at the Superbowl, live on national tv.

In an election year.
 
In Texas.

[tradesecret]

jynnan tonnix

Hello again and thank you for taking the time to reply in a manner which is more conducive to discussion.

I know that many of these things I mentioned get up atheists noses. That is precisely one of the reasons I used them. They are part of the Christian mumble jumble and although they probably are not helpful in a discussion, those who are non-believers really learn to understand the culture and the language of what believer's believe if they truly wish to understand or deny or berate.

I said I believe because I choose and because I had no choice - and because there are many contradictions. Yet if I said there was perfect consistency someone would show me where it is not consistent. If I was able to demonstrate that it was perfectly consistent - then someone would use that to prove it was a sham- (if it is too good to be true - well it probably is not true)

I believe in the Trinity. If that is not a contradiction to the rational mind from a western rock logic point of view - then I dont know what is. God is ONE and yet God is THREE. Of course to the eastern fluid view of logic there is no contradiction - simply a different perspective.

My point as you succintly pointed out was simply to say yes some really do believe. 

I will respond further - right now I have to run.

[cheezisgoooood]

jynnan tonnix

Hello again and thank you for taking the time to reply in a manner which is more conducive to discussion.

I know that many of these things I mentioned get up atheists noses. That is precisely one of the reasons I used them. They are part of the Christian mumble jumble and although they probably are not helpful in a discussion, those who are non-believers really learn to understand the culture and the language of what believer's believe if they truly wish to understand or deny or berate.

I'm glad you admit it sounds like mumble jumble.  Also, I happen to think the majority of people on this board were previously Christian.  Not to mention theists come around here all the time, so your attempt to help us "understand your culture" is also not helpful in a discussion.

[12 Monkeys]

I am suprised a bunch of religous wackos have not gotten together and written a book about a guy in the early 1900's,who wandered around as the son of god.