Re: You don't know Him

[tothesea]

[modbreak]The topic starter has edited out his original OP (his testimony) and, for an as yet unknown reason, has decided to replace it with an almost identical copy of this post from this thread.

Since this has destroyed the flow of the conversation and left the original topic 'deformed' (at least for the first few pages) I've removed the edit and replaced it with this notification to avoid confusion for latecomers to the thread.[/modbreak]



Edit:

Anfauglir kindly attempted as good a reconstruction of the original OP as could be gathered.

I came to a place in my life around that time of 27, where I started to really notice the world was changing for the worst. The love and connection I felt with it seemed to be diminishing rapidly. From everything I had observed, the world was on a course of self-destruction.  People were growing unhappier, more detached and judgmental by the minute. I asked myself what I could do, if anything.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.  He let me know that He was there, had always been there, that He loved me, and that I would be working for Him for now on.

I was open to the possibility of God existing, but not unless it was proven to me, and I would never have cracked open a bible to seek it out.  I wasn't looking for God at all.  God tapped me on the shoulder by His own volition.  He revealed himself to me, despite the fact that I was an unbeliever.

Until He comes to you personally, and lets you know, you don't know Him at all.  You can't conceive of Him.  It seems like nonsense.  There is a lot more going on in reality though than what you can see.  From what I have witnessed, there is no way for any human mind to perceive God unless God decides to reveal Himself to that person, period.  They will continue to believe whatever it is they believe until God decides, for whatever reason, that it's time.  That time for many of you may never come

The point is, you can come up with the most solid logical proof, but this has nothing to do with your arguments or understanding.  I wasn't religious, knew nothing about the bible, jesus or anything God related.

[12 Monkeys]

would the result have been the same for Budah,Allah,or a jug of milk substituted for your almighty?

Gimme a break

[jetson]

Welcome to the forum!

So, you have proclaimed your knowledge of God, and yet you bring nothing that is convincing, except for your own personal feelings.  Your heart, it's a muscle that pumps blood, that's it.  And you have heaped a definition upon that organ that you seem to think gives you some level of credibility in your beliefs.  We all know what the "in my heart" feeling means, but it is nothing more than a personal feeling.

If God was real, we could not be standing here saying God is not real, rather, we would be having a different discussion regarding the known attributes and qualities of this god.  We would not be disputing it's existence, any more than we recognize the existence of gravity (stepping off of a cliff provides all the evidence we need.)

There are no cliffs to step off of for God.  None.

You are nothing more than another human who "feels" there is a God, and who has absolutely nothing outside of personal beliefs and feelings to support that belief.  You have nothing.  You prove nothing.  

All gods are imaginary.  That you refuse to see this is only your problem, and your personal delusion.

[General Lee]

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I had to do something.  I decided that I would try to do something to save it.  Yes, I know how it sounds, but that was my thinking.

It was a few months after I made this decision that God let me know He was there.

God didn't find you, you found god. Seek and you shall find. You were looking for something to attach to and religion is always the easiest. No need to go out and actually do something, just pray and you're giving the best gift of all.   Child Please.

EDIT:

I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die. I decided that I would try to do something to save it.

What are you doing to "save the world"?

If it was just heading over into theism, I really do believe that you just made it a little worse.

[snkiesch]

Neither do you what is god's favorite color? If you honestly were seeking the truth you would know the real history of your myth. The only thing you know about your myth is what you have been told by people who are just as naive about the truth as you are from what I can tell.

[Gimpy]

Shouldn't this be in the Testimonial Section since it is basically a life experience posing as preaching?

[jetson]

Neither do you what is god's favorite color? If you honestly were seeking the truth you would know the real history of your myth. The only thing you know about your myth is what you have been told by people who are just as naive about the truth as you are from what I can tell.

Excellent point, and the OP would be wise to truly seek the most up to date knowledge of Christianity, its history, and the history of its central documents, The Bible.  The OP should indeed do a little research before handing his life to such a delusion.

[dloubet]

If none of our arguments matter, then you have made up your mind that you are infallible in your detection and identification of supernatural beings. Further, you believe you cannot be fooled by these beings you claim to detect and identify.

Your arrogance is astounding.

[Gimpy]

  The point is, you can come up with the most solid logical proof, but this has nothing to do with your arguments or understanding.  I wasn't religious, knew nothing about the bible, jesus or anything God related. 

Well, thanks for a wall of posted nothingness.

Except this little Liar For ChristTM gem bolded above.

If you live in the wester culture, it is simply not possible for you to have grown up without SOME indoctrination to the bible and biblegod and his mythical "son" jesus.

It permeates our culture in every medium possible. So you were already "pre-conditioned" to the myth before you actively started "seeking."

And, as most people who fall into the myth, you opened yourself up at a vulnerable period in your life and, lo and behold, "found" the answer.

Except you already know that the entire myth fails every test of logic.

It's a "feel good" "wishful thinking" phenomenon.

You know it, which is why you are trying to quash that line of "defense" right out of the starting gate.

No, no amount of "want to" makes the myth of biblegod, or any god-being, a reality.

Sorry that you stopped your critical thinking skills so early in life. Perhaps when you really do approach the subject with an awareness of how you have not only been pre-indoctrinated, but how you have also voluntarily turned off the entire logic section of your brain you will see how ridiculous your "testimony" above is.

[tothesea]

"So, you have proclaimed your knowledge of God, and yet you bring nothing that is convincing, except for your own personal feelings.  Your heart, it's a muscle that pumps blood, that's it.  And you have heaped a definition upon that organ that you seem to think gives you some level of credibility in your beliefs.  We all know what the "in my heart" feeling means, but it is nothing more than a personal feeling."

Well, I wasn't trying to convince anyone, and what you said actually ties into my point.  It *is* a personal thing.  Until God reveals Himself to you, you don't know Him and can't know Him.  

"If God was real, we could not be standing here saying God is not real, rather, we would be having a different discussion regarding the known attributes and qualities of this god.  We would not be disputing it's existence, any more than we recognize the existence of gravity (stepping off of a cliff provides all the evidence we need.)

There are no cliffs to step off of for God.  None."

Because people are disputing Gods existence rather than discussing His attributes means God doesn't exist?  How does that follow?


You are nothing more than another human who "feels" there is a God, and who has absolutely nothing outside of personal beliefs and feelings to support that belief.  You have nothing.  You prove nothing.  

All gods are imaginary.  That you refuse to see this is only your problem, and your personal delusion.

Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea

[General Lee]

I have no idea what you mean by "God". It's a catch-all term designed to be anything the user wants it to be. Provide a definition.

[tothesea]

If none of our arguments matter, then you have made up your mind that you are infallible in your detection and identification of supernatural beings. Further, you believe you cannot be fooled by these beings you claim to detect and identify.

Your arrogance is astounding.

I just know what I experienced.  There wasn't any room left for doubt.  God showed me how He was there my entire life.  Yes, I could be fooled by a supernatural being, but unconditional love is not something any being but God would be capable of, let alone being the essence of all things, including myself.

Btw, it's weird how in your argument you deny the possibility of God but then bring up the possibility that I could be fooled by supernatural beings.  You might want to examine how your worldview allows for the possibility of supernatural beings which could impersonate God but the conception of God Himself existing is ridiculous.

[Gimpy]

Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea

No, the god-being cannot "prove" anything as it is a myth.

It is a myth created by superstitious people to control other superstitious people during an incredibly superstitious period in history.

And I'm sorry, but you are yet another arrogant F**K who thinks he knows what any of us have done or gone through in our own search and belief in god-being.

You seem to think we just popped out of nowhere and have no clue what real and genuine religious connection is.

That's pretty arrogant of you.

The reason you like to say it's "personal" is because you know it's bullshit.

The "unconditional love" you experienced was from YOURSELF, mate.

Quit trying to push it off on something else.

And you did not answer my question or address the lie you spouted -- please see my previous post above.

Oh, and stop preaching on the forums. It's against the rules.

If you are only spouting personal "testimony" you need to do that in the appropriate forum and not in the General Religious Discussion forum.

[tothesea]

Well, thanks for a wall of posted nothingness.

Except this little Liar For ChristTM gem bolded above.

If you live in the wester culture, it is simply not possible for you to have grown up without SOME indoctrination to the bible and biblegod and his mythical "son" jesus.

It permeates our culture in every medium possible. So you were already "pre-conditioned" to the myth before you actively started "seeking."

And, as most people who fall into the myth, you opened yourself up at a vulnerable period in your life and, lo and behold, "found" the answer.

Actually you couldn't be more wrong.  I didn't really know anything about the bible, or Jesus.  All I knew of was a judgmental angry God who was going to send me to hell for being me.  I had no emotional need for God either.  My concern was for the world, not for myself.  Not only that but I didn't become religious, and I am still not religious, so you're really jumping to conclusions here.

Except you already know that the entire myth fails every test of logic.

It's a "feel good" "wishful thinking" phenomenon.

You know it, which is why you are trying to quash that line of "defense" right out of the starting gate.

No, no amount of "want to" makes the myth of biblegod, or any god-being, a reality.

Sorry that you stopped your critical thinking skills so early in life. Perhaps when you really do approach the subject with an awareness of how you have not only been pre-indoctrinated, but how you have also voluntarily turned off the entire logic section of your brain you will see how ridiculous your "testimony" above is.


As I said before, this was direct revelation.  I wasn't looking for it.  I didn't read a bible and suddenly become convinced.  Gods Spirit came upon me and let me know those things in no uncertain terms.  I wasn't looking for God, nor was I was worried for myself or what would happen to me.  I appreciate your concern for my well being by my critical thinking skills are doing just fine.  If you had actually read my post you would see that I didn't become convinced for any other reason than Gods direct intervention, which has nothing to do with logic, or thinking.  That was the entire point..that you can only know God by revelation.

tothesea

[Gimpy]

Two things, you need to read the rules of this forum.

You are not quoting properly and it's an easy thing to learn. Please read the FAQs and practice in the "test area" if you have to.

But it's crucial that you learn appropriate quoting skills.

You have still not answered my question.

Where did you grow up?

I have no concern for your well-being by the way. I rarely do for people who are willfully ignorant and closing down their minds and critical thinking skills.

I'm also going to officially report you if you don't stop preaching --

please request the moderators to more your thread into the Testimonial section.

And read the FAQs before you continue.

[Emily]

Welcome to the site.

I once claimed to know God, until I began observing the world around me. Then I began doubting his existence and wanting to believe in something more real. I don't want this...

Only God can prove Himself.

I want something that can be verified. An answered pray, some say, is god proving himself. Well I began to think along the lines of the video[1].

What might pass for god proving himself to some has more natural attributes.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die.

You sound like a few of my friends who used to be former druggies. They wanted a change in their lives, and to kick the habit, so they clung onto this feel good story about some god who sent his son to the world to save the world of their sins and to offer a street of gold to walk on to those who believe in his son.

It's funny, though. Because god is going on doing his own thing, completely ignoring his creation's pleads. He seems to answer really stupid prayers while ignoring more important problems, like children starving. If he exists he's a horrible, horrible thing to believe in.

1.	and I should note I became an atheist long before this site was formed.

[Gimpy]

Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!

[tothesea]

Again, that's my point.  Only God can prove Himself.  I can't prove Him.  Also, saying all Gods are imaginary because you don't have any personal experience with God doesn't make it true.  It just means you have no direct knowledge of God.

tothesea

No, the god-being cannot "prove" anything as it is a myth.

It is a myth created by superstitious people to control other superstitious people during an incredibly superstitious period in history.

And I'm sorry, but you are yet another arrogant F**K who thinks he knows what any of us have done or gone through in our own search and belief in god-being.

You seem to think we just popped out of nowhere and have no clue what real and genuine religious connection is.

That's pretty arrogant of you.

The reason you like to say it's "personal" is because you know it's bullshit.

The "unconditional love" you experienced was from YOURSELF, mate.

Quit trying to push it off on something else.

And you did not answer my question or address the lie you spouted -- please see my previous post above.

Oh, and stop preaching on the forums. It's against the rules.

If you are only spouting personal "testimony" you need to do that in the appropriate forum and not in the General Religious Discussion forum.

I don't think we are mates, mate, if you think I am an arrogant **** who is just preaching and blah blah blah etc.  Most of your post here just seems angry and hateful.  Also, I think it's out of line to accuse me of lying about something because you are so closed-minded and set in your beliefs that you cannot conceive of it being true.  Sorry to inform you but everything I said is the absolute truth.  I don't lie, about anything, except the occassional white lie to spare someones feelings.  Are you really trying to engage me in conversation here or just emote your angry feelings about God?  Im not your punching bag, matey.

[Gimpy]

No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

[Emily]

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

hehe...

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 12:11

[Gimpy]

 Are you really trying to engage me in conversation here or just emote your angry feelings about God?  Im not your punching bag, matey.

How can someone be "angry" about a mythological creature?

Are you angry about Lord Voldemort?

Or Darth Vader?

But I do hold little regard at all for people who should be using critical thinking skills voluntarily turning them off because they are afraid of taking responsibility and accountability for their own actions.

Again, where are you from? That is a legitimate question, and you know it is, so perhaps that is why you keep avoiding the answer?

[Gimpy]

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

hehe...

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

1 Corinthians 12:11

My point exactly. The superstitious people who wrote the myths and legends in the collection of fairy tales you call the bible KNOW that one has to turn off the rational thinking part of their brains.

That was my point, especially since I knew that was your go-to excuse.

You have voluntarily submitted to a lobotomy, basically.

So again, grow up and take responsibility for your actions and quit trying to foist off on an imaginary creature.

It's distasteful and makes you seem, well, retarded, especially when you turn off your brain on purpose!

[tothesea]

Welcome to the site.

I once claimed to know God, until I began observing the world around me. Then I began doubting his existence and wanting to believe in something more real. I don't want this...

Only God can prove Himself.

I want something that can be verified. An answered pray, some say, is god proving himself. Well I began to think along the lines of the video[1].

What might pass for god proving himself to some has more natural attributes.

I decided that I would never truly be happy unless I was doing something to counteract what was going on.  I couldn't go on doing my own thing, caring as deeply as I did for the world, and watch it die.

You sound like a few of my friends who used to be former druggies. They wanted a change in their lives, and to kick the habit, so they clung onto this feel good story about some god who sent his son to the world to save the world of their sins and to offer a street of gold to walk on to those who believe in his son.

It's funny, though. Because god is going on doing his own thing, completely ignoring his creation's pleads. He seems to answer really stupid prayers while ignoring more important problems, like children starving. If he exists he's a horrible, horrible thing to believe in.

1.	and I should note I became an atheist long before this site was formed.

Thanks for the welcome.  You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  It isn't for you to determine what God does, or base your faith off of what you see going on in the world.  If you knew God, then you wouldn't doubt, because you would allow yourself to be informed by God about God rather than the world.  The world doesn't know anything about it.  Only God can tell you about God, or prove that He is there.  

Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  

[Emily]

You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  

Actually I had strong faith in god. I used to pray to god until I was in tears. I taught bible study and sunday school. My dad and grandfahter are both preachers. I grew up with a very strong faith in god because of that.

All i know it I want to believe in something that can be verified, as I said. And god can't. What passes off as an act of god also has a more natural cause and explanation. 

Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  

Ouch. Getting a little insulting, aren't ya? Claiming the "horrible condition of the world" is because of people like me. First of all, what horrible conditions are you talking about? What problems are you talking about? Be specific.

[tothesea]

No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

I can't think of anything more childish than "Im telling on you" and things like

"Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!"

You are really quite emotional over this subject.  I'm sorry gimpy, but just because you don't believe in God, and you're convinced, doesn't mean He doesn't exist.  I am amazed at your hyperbole, but unbelievers always get worked up over a pure and simple faith.  The fact is, my existence and my faith validates Gods existence and Gods unconditional love.  I prove God; as He proved Himself to me, I prove Him to you, just by being here as I am.  Exorcise your demons gimpy, for you are filled with ugliness and have no life in you.

[Gimpy]

Thanks for the welcome.  You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  

Wow. Just f**king. . . wow.

Thank goodness this is in the Testimonal section where we can let him fade away into nothingness.

What an arrogant f**k.

[Emily]

tothesea, you're coming off as a complete dick.

[Gimpy]

No, it's not angry or hateful.

It's pretty much full of disgust I have for people who are as arrogant as you.

Disgust is not the same as anger or hate.

And god-beings are myths.

Put on your big boy pants and stop acting like a child.

I can't think of anything more childish than "Im telling on you" and things like

"Yay!

Thanks Mod 11!

Hugs!!"

You are really quite emotional over this subject.  I'm sorry gimpy, but just because you don't believe in God, and you're convinced, doesn't mean He doesn't exist.  I am amazed at your hyperbole, but unbelievers always get worked up over a pure and simple faith.  The fact is, my existence and my faith validates Gods existence and Gods unconditional love.  I prove God; as He proved Himself to me, I prove Him to you, just by being here as I am.  Exorcise your demons gimpy, for you are filled with ugliness and have no life in you.

No we get "worked up" over willful ignorance.

That's a big difference.

and you've stonewalled, dodged and avoided several direct questions to you by me.

Please answer them and stop dodging.


By the way, I have plenty of "life" in me, although granted likely less of a timeline than you. Chances are very good that this time next year I will be dead.

So while I muchly enjoyed my life to the fullest before, knowing this gives me an even greater urgency to live and enjoy this life I have.

and when I see people like you, willfully turning off intelligent thought, it is just disgusting.

I pity people like you who cannot face their own humanness and accept their incredible potential for goodness instead of somehow thinking they are "born" bad.

Sad. Disgusting and such a waste of life.

[tothesea]

You sound like someone who had a weak faith and backslid because you put yourself above God for explaining the world.  

Actually I had strong faith in god. I used to pray to god until I was in tears. I taught bible study and sunday school. My dad and grandfahter are both preachers. I grew up with a very strong faith in god because of that.

All i know it I want to believe in something that can be verified, as I said. And god can't. What passes off as an act of god also has a more natural cause and explanation. 

Consider that perhaps it is the attitude and weak faith of people like you that contribute to the horrible condition of the world.  If everyone did what they were supposed to rather than whatever they feel like, the world wouldn't have these problems.  

Ouch. Getting a little insulting, aren't ya? Claiming the "horrible condition of the world" is because of people like me. First of all, what horrible conditions are you talking about? What problems are you talking about? Be specific.

If you really had a strong faith and were a preacher, then you wouldn't be demanding proof, you would have seen the Spirit moving and that would be enough.  If you never had the Holy Spirit witness to you, then your faith was never true, and what you're telling me is untrue.  If you never saw the Holy Spirit acting through others, then your faith was never true, and you never received the Spirit of God.  How could you be a preacher but miss the presence of the spirit or never even received it?  That makes no sense what so ever.

If what you're telling me is true, you backslid on a weak faith, having no witness from the Spirit, nor did you ever truly commit yourself because you would have received the spirit.  The horrible condition of the world I am speaking of is the lack of Gods love as expressed by the hearts and minds and spirits of mankind;  the world follows after death, and has earned its reward.