Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..

[screwtape]

Yes, mercy is a concept of the Bible. Planning on God to pull your ass out at the last minute probably won't garner a lot of mercy.
God is not a rule. If I walk away from you, I'm creating the space between you and I.

That does not answer the point.  Please give it another shot.

I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.

Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.

markynark, that is just reasserting your original claim.  It is the philosophical equivalent of "yuh-huh!" It explains nothing.  It dodges the point.  I left the important points of my post as a refresher for you, since you apparently just ignored them.  How would you go about intentionally believing in leprechauns? 

OH! I have a good one for you!  This woman had a husband in Iraq when she got pregnant.  She is claiming she got preggo from watching a 3-D porno movie.  Suppose for just a moment you are her husband.  How do you go about making yourself believe her preposterous and obvious lie?

Are you saying you think you could also choose to cease believing in yhwh?  If so, that is very, very interesting.

[velkyn]

Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.

again, as has been already noted, you are making baseless claims about people being able to choose and not choose.  How can I choose to believe if your Bible has said in many places that I cannot?  I have been stuck with the brain that supposed your God gave me, complete with the skepticism that your God supposedly gave me.  And I get damned for using it?  So much for any claim of choice on your part, Mark. 

And as Hatter has so helpfully quoted me in saying, again we have no evidence of your claims, just the same crappy claims again. 

[Whateverman]

You know, it occurs to me that fundamentalist Christians actually DO choose to believe in (their interpretation of) God.  I mean, really, it takes effort to ignore information which contradicts an opinion or belief.  And that effort must be conscious rather than unconscious.  So - conscious effort is essentially "choice".

Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?

[ParkingPlaces]

Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?

It's probably a requirement. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to believe either.

[Dante]

Is it any wonder, then, that they project this model of belief onto other people?

It's probably a requirement. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to believe either.

I'm convinced they don't really believe.

[markinark]

Kinda like this....

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html

[velkyn]

if it's "kinda" like this, explain it in your own words. 

[cheezisgoooood]

Your posts are getting shorter, Mark.  It's like you're too afraid to dive in again so you keep dipping your feet in real quick and then pulling back out.  What is it that keeps you coming back?

[Hatter23]

if it's "kinda" like this, explain it in your own words. 

And please while you are at it, avoid all those appeals to ignorance, circular reasoning, and dodging of the hard points like you have in the previous posts, Mark.

 

[Alzael]

Kinda like this....

http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html

  I think I just shot skittles out my nose I was laughing so hard.  

This is great Mark, just great.

So basically your argument, well actually this guys argument but I'll assume that you actually possessed the cognitive capacity to have made the argument yourself. Is that we have free will, except when god decides we don't have free will. This doesn't even support your earlier statement. It just says that god only sometimes decides who goes to hell and who doesn't regardless of actions or individual choices. So all you've done is made your god more of an arbitrary, non-committal f**kass than he already was. The article itself states that god puts people in places so that his will is accomplished. You and the author are just trying to shoehorn this concept in to somehow allowing us choice. Also notice how the article presents far, far less evidence for free will than it does for the other side?

But nevermind me. Go on, please. Caper for my amusement my, little Christian Monkey-Man.

[Operator_011]

This thread lost it's way a while back and is going around in circles, so I think it's time for it to visit the Pit.


I'm not going to mention any names, markinark, but the rules concerning backing up one's assertions still apply in the Pit.

[screwtape]

I hesitate to make another post before markinark puts up a better reply to my previous posts, but this predestination page is too stupid to ignore.

I have tried to present a balanced examination of the issues regarding free will and predestination. It is obvious that the Bible teaches both concepts. Ultimately, I believe that God directs history. However, I do not believe that He micro-manages history. In other words, I think God places people in history so that His will is accomplished. This includes putting His followers, in addition to those who oppose Him, at strategic points in history. The Bible encourages us to use our free will to choose good over evil.

So yhwh tampers with the milestones but lets us get their on our own free will.  The problem is the butterfly effect.  There are so many choices available to so many people, the slightest wrong turn could throw it all irrevokably out of kilter. 

Just look at yourself.  For you to be who you are at this moment, it required an uncounted number of highly implausible events to occur.  If yhwh had you in mind to start with, and said "I'll make sure his parents met and leave the rest to chance," he'd have been fucked. Yhwh would have need a specific sperm cell carrying the exact right combination of DNA (or is it RNA for sperm?) to meet with just the right egg.  That means if your parents had successful copulation at any moment other than when they did, there would be no you.  There would have been someone else.  Heck, had your dad "gone off" one second sooner or one second later, there would be no you. 

Or is the assumption there that yhwh micromanaged the DNA?  Then that is as bad a no free will.  That is the illusion that your choices matter, but they really don't, they lead to the same conclusions no matter what.  We D&D nerds call this "railroading". 

Let's assume this is what yhwh does with DNA.  That still leaves the uncounted moments of your life's experiences, the little choices.  That would literally require yhwh tipping the scale continually to ensure you end up exactly where you are now.  The whole idea that yhwh meddles only a little is preposterous.