Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 17369 times)

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Football, the opera, ballet and eternal life. Yeah, I see your point...not.
The point is that the choices we make in the limited lifetime we have are limited to that lifetime. And rightly so. And yet in Christian understanding,our eternity rests on a basically uninformed choice we make within the tiny blip of time which is our existence. It simply doesn't compute as anything like justice.


Separate yourself from your car at 80mph. I'm guessing that will be eternal.
Hardly relevant to the subject at hand. My car is very much a physical thing. And as far as my experience of that separation, it would pretty much be over in an instant.

As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.
That's certainly your perogative. But meaningless for those who don't happen to buy into the mythology.





Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.
Those are not exactly viable choices, now, are they? I happen to live on a planet which benefits from it's placement in relationship to the sun. And I'm not likely to come across any black holes. If I do, it certainly won't be because I decided to go fooling around in its neighborhood.

Whether the Christian mythology is simply part of "the way thing are" or not, the fact is that we have no way of knowing. And if God is a sentient being who cares about us as the mythology claims, he would have the power to give each and every one of us the amount of evidence we need to make an informed choice. And if he were a benevolent being, he surely would.



Offline Omen

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If god knows I will commit an act, before I commit that act, then what choice did I have?  How could I choose not to?
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Offline kcrady

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1. Yes [Heaven is perfect]
2. Yes. [There is free will in Heaven] That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

In that case, everyone goes to Hell, eventually.  If it is not possible to repent in Hell, then everyone ends up there eternally.  Why?  As long as free will exists, the option to "sin" exists.  No matter how improbable it might be that you would choose to "sin" in Heaven, given eternity that probability must eventually reach one (certainty).  Since a trip to Hell is permanent, the first time you have some slightly impure thought, like remembering what it felt like to have sex with someone not your spouse, or wish, just once, that you could do something other than sing hosanna's to the Lord (pity the poor Living Creatures of Revelation 4!) today--the trap door opens, and off to Hell you go.  That applies to you and to every one of Yahweh's holy angels.  Lucifer and those who joined him were just the first to realize this fact.[1]

This is inevitable because to exist at all as a being with a will distinct from Yahweh's (to have "free will") is to be different from Yahweh, i.e., not "like him" to the extent that you are "someone else."  Everything that makes you an individual, whether it's enjoying chocolate sundaes or pleasure in having sex with your spouse or liking football, is something that is not "like Yahweh" (unless you want to suggest that Yahweh derives pleasure from having sex with your wife...).  Since you cannot, as a created being, become Yahweh, you are inherently "not like him."  Your only option if you wish to try to remain in his good graces, is to turn yourself into a mindless tape recorder repeating his praises, like those poor Creatures have done.  "He must increase, but I must decrease."  You must, to the extent of your ability, cease to be an individual.  You must, in effect, seek to undo Yahweh's work in creating you as someone other than himself, an individual with free will, and become a passive mirror reflecting his image back to him.

But that suggests that it is possible to improve on Yahweh's work, to become more "like him" than he has made you, and that too is "sin."  The "sin" attributed to Lucifer[2] is to proclaim "I shall be like the Most High."  Yet, as you have said, to be unlike the "Most High" is also a sin, so it's a double-bind you can't escape.  You've got an eternity to make some tiny slip-up and end up in Hell with the rest of us.  Better hope it's not as bad as you Christians make it out to be.   
 1. In saying this, I'm treating the Bible as a story, in the same way I can talk about how Darth Vader might have felt when he started killing Younglings or why Obi-Wan abandoned him to burn and suffer on Mustafar instead of delivering a coup de grace.
 2. In context, a Babylonian king likened to "Haylel," a deity identified with Venus, the lesser light that heralds, but cannot equal, the Sun.  St. Jerome translated the Hebrew word into the Latin as "Lucifer," and then identified this as Satan's original name, but if you read the passage Isaiah 14, it is abundantly clear that it is referring to a mortal king with delusions of divine grandeur rather than an angel or spirit being.
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Offline velkyn

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Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

aka, wah, you don't agree with me so I need to claim you don't want to understand.  That's sad, mark.  You haven't yet shown that anyone has demonstrated a lack of understanding only a lack of agreement with your version of Christianity.  You only want to whine that something is "lame" and try to depower your god so you can excuse it's impotence. 

Let me ask you, do you find the claims of Revelation to be literal?
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Offline Operator_011

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cheezisgoood & markinark.

Think before you quote, chaps.


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Offline Ashe

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Mark...

No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

No, Mark, that's not the question. Are you reading my post?

In this example, it's my will for my child to have the motorcycle, you see. I've built the motorcycle just for my kid. There's a flaw in my design, though. I know that the motorcycle will catch fire because of the flaw. Do I...

a) Change my design entirely so there is no longer a flaw?
or
b) Just add on a feature to put out the fire once it inevitably starts?

Also, you haven't addressed the rest of the points in my post, and I would like you to do so. Please stop ignoring them. The post is here.

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Offline Positiveaob

The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Not lame at all, you're just ignoring the irrationality of your position.  You seem to think if you keep repeating if a=b, and b does not =c, then a=c, enough times it will start making sense.  It doesnt.  Please respond to my previous post on the subject:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361884#msg361884

I've actually got a few posts I was hoping you would respond to.  I know you're bogged down here, but maybe just one of them?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg362262#msg362262

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg362268#msg362268
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 03:44:14 PM by Positiveaob »
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Offline Positiveaob

1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

Who the hell here has a problem with a myth stating that we will go to eternal damnation.  That would be like me worrying about Zeus striking me down with a lightning bolt.  He doesnt exist, so no need to worry about it.

Quote
P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.

I havent seen a response from you yet that had anything resembling thought or any logical basis.  Just using the "because the bible says so" argument isnt intelligent.  In your words, it's "just plain stupid".
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Offline Positiveaob

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

Again, no one here blames this mythical being for anything.  When we point out the inconsistencies in his supposed actions we do so to point out the irrationality of your belief system. 

You are one of those who believed in the boogie man in the closet of your bedroom way, way, way beyond the age when your friends stopped believing that, arent you?
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Offline screwtape

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Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Could yhwh choose a different consequence?  In other words, could yhwh override our choice out of mercy?  Or is our choice (and the consequence) so powerful that even an omnipotent deity cannot change the outcome?  You see, you describe this as if it were a law of nature to which even yhwh is subject and has no power over.  But if you are the omnipotent creator of all that is, that means you also created the rules.  So no matter how you slice it, the arrangement with hell, however it is defined, is by yhwh's choice.  And since that is so, I don't see how you can possibly get around the conclusion that it is punishment.  Saying it is a "consequence" is a denial of responsibility, and a bad one at that.


You also seem to be hung up on blame.  That is, the idea that people are choosing separation from this "god" character.  I presume you would include atheists in that lot.  But here is the thing - I've not chosen to be an atheist.  I simply cannot make myself believe it[1].  I was a catholic for years and there came a point where it just stopped making sense.  I did not choose that.  So, I was separated from yhwh - assuming it exists - despite trying to find my way back it. I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.



Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God.

Whence does this definition come?  I've not seen it in the bible, but I am not altogether familiar with the NT.  I do know that your definition is inconsistent with the hebrew concept of Sheol.

Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice.

eh, that is not what the bible says...

Quote from: rev12:9
9The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
rev12:9

"Was hurled".  An action was taken upon him.


edit - added footnote for clarification.

 1. that there is a god as described in the bible and by various churches
« Last Edit: October 20, 2010, 12:48:12 PM by screwtape »
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Offline ksm

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Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Quite the contrary, since your god supposedly knew the ultimate destiny of all humans before the universe itself was created. This god knows everything going on in your head (your heart is a pump), because it determined, before the creation of the universe, what those thoughts would be.

Even events that are truly random (quantum events, radioactive decay) are fully planned by such a god. There can be no other outcome other than the outcome that this god planned before it created everything.

In order for you for you make any choice contrary to the future this god has preplanned (since before the act of creation), you need to be more powerful than it.

Offline Alzael

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The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.

God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

People who have children don't stay out of their children's lives, giving only vague clues that can be interpreted in so many ways as to make them effectively useless. Leaving the children with no way to determine whether their parents even exist without blind faith. Then give them unfathomable rules with no explanation as to why the rules are in place or why they should even be viewed as wrong. Then hold them to these rules and punish them for their violation. This is not the actions of a loving parent. This is the actions of, at best, a parent who doesn't care, and at worst a parent that is openly spiteful towards his children.

In the heart of a real parent, there is nothing more important that the love they feel for their child. If your child would suffer eternally just because they were separate from you, any decent parent would ensure that their children would never be separate from them. They would stay with the children, talk to and help them constantly and be an obvious presence in their lives, demonstrating their existence and their love for their child. And that's assuming that they weren't omnipotent and couldn't just make a thing like hell not exist. Or not be a consequence of not believing them.

Either way you look at it. Your god loses the loving-parent test epically.
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Offline Hatter23

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God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

Are you ever going to get around to proof as to why your claims of God are different from any other claims of any other God?

Are you ever going to get around to addressing the salient point that your God supposedly set in motion everything, knowing that any possible difference could have changed the way people act, negates the entire possibility of freewill?

Are you ever going to address the part of the Myth that has God appearing before other people and beings does not negate their free will, but he vanishes from any independently varifiable history?

Are you ever going to adress that if freewill is a good, then it must exist in heaven. If heaven is free from pain and sin, then that means a complete lack Pain and Sin do not negate free will?

So many points that I see you dodging.


An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Positiveaob

In addition to these, I'd also like to see you address the issue of why such a god would have a "chosen people" and why they arent "chosen" any more.
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Offline screwtape

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Helloooo.  Markinark?  Where are you?
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Offline velkyn

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poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.
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Offline markinark

poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.

Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.

Offline velkyn

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but time to whine and not post any actual evidence of your claims.  Typical. 
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Offline Azdgari

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Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.

FYI, abandonment is a concession.
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Offline luckyace

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving

Well, he's obviously not loving. He hates gays because they're gay, doesn't mind drowning countless people or slaughtering hundreds.

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (b) All Knowing

If he's all knowing, then why must you pray to him? He obviously already knows. Prayer is pointless.

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Well, based on how he expects us all to believe in him based on a story written hundreds of years ago that really makes no sense if you read it cover to cover...

...I'd say he's not too bright.


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Offline Ashe

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poor thing, got nailed on the 19th and hasn't been back since. I do wonder what excuses he's telling himself, if he doesn't return.

Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.


Denial?

I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't even have time to get there since you haven't even addressed my post yet, despite the fact that I've been patiently waiting.
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Offline screwtape

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Nailed???

Naw, just bored with the same old tired denial.

Please address this post, or I shall be forced to call you insulting names.  I mean, jesus christ, I went through the trouble to type it.  The least you could do is respond.
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Offline markinark


I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't even have time to get there since you haven't even addressed my post yet, despite the fact that I've been patiently waiting.

The motorcycle analogy just doesn't work for me.

My understanding is Heaven is full of angels and cherubs worshipping God all day, every day. He evidently thought Man was a better idea. My take is He thought a relationship was an idea whose time had come.

The real issue is dealing with the concept of pain and suffering in this world and eternal pain and suffering in the next. The Bible teaches this as the result of separation from God (sin). I see this as the result of choices by man.

This is not a foreign concept to us. Our parents raise us warning of the perils of life which can result in death (eternal in this world). Try as they might, that can't force us to behave. They can't protect us from everything because we are independent beings who make choices.

It is my belief that when this universe comes to an end there will be a consequence of where we are on a good/evil/+/-/light/dark basis. That reality of the 'other' world is unavoidable. As unavoidable as the physics of a black hole or a super nova. It is just the way it is.

Our choices brought us to this reality and our choices can take us back to where God wants us. Eternal damnation is a consequence and a warning, not a threat.

Offline Alzael

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Our choices brought us to this reality and our choices can take us back to where God wants us. Eternal damnation is a consequence and a warning, not a threat.


Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. "

Romans 8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. "

Eph. 1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. "

Thessalonians 2-11:12 "God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned. "

Tim 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began. "

Jude 4 "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation. "

Romans 9:11-22 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. .... For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? ... Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. "

I'm sorry, my reading comprehension skills must have suddenly gone away and left me. What was that about choice again? I'm sure I'm just reading things wrong and you can easily provide evidence that any choice in this matter exists, truly I am certain of this. I eagerly await for you to enlighten me with your vast wisdom.
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Offline markinark

Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.

Could yhwh choose a different consequence? In other words, could yhwh override our choice out of mercy?  Or is our choice (and the consequence) so powerful that even an omnipotent deity cannot change the outcome?  You see, you describe this as if it were a law of nature to which even yhwh is subject and has no power over.  But if you are the omnipotent creator of all that is, that means you also created the rules.  So no matter how you slice it, the arrangement with hell, however it is defined, is by yhwh's choice.  And since that is so, I don't see how you can possibly get around the conclusion that it is punishment.  Saying it is a "consequence" is a denial of responsibility, and a bad one at that.

Yes, mercy is a concept of the Bible. Planning on God to pull your ass out at the last minute probably won't garner a lot of mercy.
God is not a rule. If I walk away from you, I'm creating the space between you and I.


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You also seem to be hung up on blame.  That is, the idea that people are choosing separation from this "god" character.  I presume you would include atheists in that lot.  But here is the thing - I've not chosen to be an atheist.  I simply cannot make myself believe it[1].  I was a catholic for years and there came a point where it just stopped making sense.  I did not choose that.  So, I was separated from yhwh - assuming it exists - despite trying to find my way back it. I do not know how to "choose" to believe something I find preposterous.  If you tell me to try, I would ask that you first try to "choose" to believe in mermaids or leprechauns.  And I mean literal ones, with all the legendary and mythological baggage (just like yhwh's).  Not rationalizations for them or half baked explanations about dwarfism or dolphins.
 1. that there is a god as described in the bible and by various churches

Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.




Offline Hatter23

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but time to whine and not post any actual evidence of your claims.  Typical.  

But plenty of time to post more unsubstantiated claims, and ignore all those unfortunate points he seems so fond of evading
« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 02:41:07 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.


Yes just as your evaluation of the story of every other religion, myth, and farietale is your choice. You stopped believing in the tooth farie and Santa Claus, that was your choice.

So please seperate out how your favored mythology of Christianity is any different. How its claims to the wonderous, the supernatural, and the otherworldly are somehow superior. State it in a way that is logically consistent, does not appeal to ignorance, personal credulity, or current popularity. State it in a way that allows those claims to be verified in an objective and independently verifiable manner.

 
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Alzael

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Yes, you chose to stop believing. You seem to be hung up on not taking responsibility. It isn't 'blame' if you caused it. It is fact.
Your decision, evaluation, of the Bible story is your choice.


Really? Cause I seem to recall that I just pointed out how it isn't choice. Seriously? You're going to just outright ignore the post above you and make a claim that directly goes against what it proves? This is good. I'm genuinely amused. I hope he comes back so my little monkey can dance for me again.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Offline Azdgari

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According to markinark's characterization of belief-behaviour, the his belief in the Bible as true is entirely a factor of his own choice.  It does not reflect on the Bible's contents, but only on his choice to believe them to be true.

I do not choose to believe that I am typing on a computer right now; I am compelled to believe it.  But markinark would hold that the belief I am typing on a computer is just as possible a "choice" as the belief that I am not.  His position holds that I believe I'm typing on the computer not because I am, but because I choose to believe it.

Solipsism at its finest.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.