Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 18084 times)

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Offline jetson

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^ I've been thinking so.

When has it ever turned out otherwise? :)

Offline generousgeorge

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GG, could you fix the quotes in post #223?  Thanks.



I can't seem to get it right  &)....can we just leave out.  :) 

Offline Timtheskeptic

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Anti-skeptic helmet, get your anti-skeptic helmet. Afraid of people trying to take away your belief in imaginary things? Want to spend the rest of your life afraid of boogeymen and praising a tyrannical maniac while thinking he's a loving father-God? Want to believe words from an ancient text without doubt? Want to live your life as a slave to an illusion? Do you want to think that Atheists are followers of some primal evil trying to kidnap you and have their wicked way with you? Then buy the new Anti-skeptic Helmet. Blindfolds are included along with earplugs and a security blanket. It's just 19.99 dollars. Order now and we'll throw in a pill that makes you even more deluded for free.

Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline generousgeorge

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Can I just order the pill?  ;D

Offline voodoo child

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 ;D ;D ;D I just don't the have the words, sorry  ;D ;D ;D
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline Historicity

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Want to spend the rest of your life afraid of boogeymen and praising a tyrannical maniac while thinking he's a loving father-God? Want to believe words from an ancient text without doubt? Want to live your life as a slave to an illusion?

YES, YES, YES!  That's why I just got Hellword, the latest film in the Hellraiser series. 

($5 in the economy bin at Wal*Mart.)

Oh, I do hope I will be frightened.

Offline Agga

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Quote from:  Snooping
Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..


Last Active: 13 October 2010, 17:10:21


Why don't you come back to the threads you've started and hold a discussion, then I'll spend the time answering your question.

I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline Operator_A25

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Looks like his user name should have been "Trolling" rather than "Snooping."
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Offline Operator_011

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Last night I watched him look at all the threads he started, momentarily in two or three, and one for a few minutes. He then logged off manually.
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Offline generousgeorge

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Gotta wonder what the poor wretch gets out of doing this?  :P

Offline kcrady

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We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

Aside from the fact that Argumentum ad Baculum (the Argument from Force) is a fallacy, a threat is only as good as the agency responsible for carrying it out.  If I told you to give me all your money or the Care Bears will eat out your eyes and slowly skin you alive, it is highly unlikely you would take such a threat seriously.  Why not?  Because you have no reason to think that the Care Bears are anything more than fictional characters, or that they are willing or able to carry out the threat.  Likewise for your threat on Yahweh's behalf that he will torture us forever if we do not choose to (pretend to)[1] believe in his existence and worship him in the right way.

Your effort at terrorism cannot hope to succeed until you first demonstrate that Yahweh exists, that he is capable of conjuring "us" back into existence after our deaths[2] and that he is able to subject us to everlasting torture.  Then you would have to convince us that an eternity spent living in terror of such a malevolent being and groveling before him forever would not be as terrible a Hell or worse. 
 1. I am not convinced that it's possible to actually believe in anything as a matter of choice.  Could you really, honestly believe that the Moon is made of green cheese if someone promised to give you a ton of gold bullion if you did?  So much for "free will."
 2. Evidence that there will be anything left for him to torture after we die?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline Agga

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Gotta wonder what the poor wretch gets out of doing this?  :P
I reckon it was a school/church project or something.  Or maybe he is a pastor who had a sermon to write, so wanted some atheist input.  Or, maybe, he was just a guy on the fringe and wanted us to help him tip over the egde and fall off the cliffe of religious delusion.

I've left WWGHA now, so do everyone else a favour and don't bother replying to my old posts and necromancing my threads.

Offline ksm

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I'm PM'ed Snooping about this and other threads saying that it was bad form to post questions and then dissappear.

I was accused of being rude!

I requested specific examples of my rudeness, but I do not expect any answer.

Offline Operator_011

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^ Charming. It never ceases to amaze me how some people treat this forum as their personal playground, where they have rights that may never be challenged.
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Offline natlegend

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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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I want Snoop baaaaaaack! He was fun!

he was a good toy, i mean boy.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline markinark

People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Please reread my post above. I stated 'hell' is a result of the choice of man to separate himself from God, not a threat by God. It is not an Argementum ad Baculum. You should work more on reading comprehension and less on using inappropriate Latin phrases.

Quote from: kcrady
Aside from the fact that Argumentum ad Baculum (the Argument from Force) is a fallacy, a threat is only as good as the agency responsible for carrying it out.  If I told you to give me all your money or the Care Bears will eat out your eyes and slowly skin you alive, it is highly unlikely you would take such a threat seriously.  Why not?  Because you have no reason to think that the Care Bears are anything more than fictional characters, or that they are willing or able to carry out the threat.  Likewise for your threat on Yahweh's behalf that he will torture us forever if we do not choose to (pretend to)[1] believe in his existence and worship him in the right way.

Your effort at terrorism cannot hope to succeed until you first demonstrate that Yahweh exists, that he is capable of conjuring "us" back into existence after our deaths[2] and that he is able to subject us to everlasting torture.  Then you would have to convince us that an eternity spent living in terror of such a malevolent being and groveling before him forever would not be as terrible a Hell or worse.
 1. I am not convinced that it's possible to actually believe in anything as a matter of choice.  Could you really, honestly believe that the Moon is made of green cheese if someone promised to give you a ton of gold bullion if you did?  So much for "free will."
 2. Evidence that there will be anything left for him to torture after we die?  Anyone?  Anyone?  Bueller?

Your perspective and interpretation are way off. Not surprising, given your lack of reading comprehension (see above).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 07:29:20 AM by markinark »

Offline Asmoday

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Mark, since you've chosen to continue participating in this thread I remind you again to answer to my questions.

Otherwise I see a report to the mods about your stonewalling to be appropriate.

Mark, I'm still waiting for your reply to this post from to pages ago.

I'm especially interested in your answers to the following parts:

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

Quote
No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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^^
How is it poor comprehension on kcrady's part?

I hear this idea, that it is our choice to separate ourselves from god, thus end up in hell, kicked around a lot, but any way you look at it, there's still an inherent threat there.

There are plenty of things we separate ourselves from all the time. Some are interested in, say, sports, and some are not. If I choose never to watch or go to a football game, I am separating myself from it. Someone else may choose to avoid going to the opera or ballet. Others may opt out of certain cliques.

In none of these cases is the result eternal torment. At worst, they may miss something which they might have enjoyed had they been a bit more open, but in general, they will get to spend their time with things and people that they have a natural affinity for, and not worry about things they might have missed out on. In any case, they have solid, concrete proof that these things actually exist.

But in the case of god, the fact that some of us simply don't happen to believe in something which there is no evidence for is supposed to condemn us to an eternity of abject misery at the very best, and unimaginable suffering in the interpretation of many.

How is that a "fair" choice? If (hypothetically) the amount of experience or evidence we have of god is simply not enough to convince us he is real, and it turns out that he is, then, frankly, it's HIS fault if we end up in a state of eternal separation from him.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 08:25:16 AM by jynnan tonnix »

Offline markinark

Mark, since you've chosen to continue participating in this thread I remind you again to answer to my questions.

Otherwise I see a report to the mods about your stonewalling to be appropriate.

1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.


[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:10:16 PM by Moderator 11 »

Offline cheezisgoooood

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1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.

Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.

P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.
I guess we complain about it because no matter how many times you repeat it it still doesn't make sense.

Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.



[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 01:10:49 PM by Moderator 11 »

Offline markinark

^^
How is it poor comprehension on kcrady's part?

I hear this idea, that it is our choice to separate ourselves from god, thus end up in hell, kicked around a lot, but any way you look at it, there's still an inherent threat there.

There are plenty of things we separate ourselves from all the time. Some are interested in, say, sports, and some are not. If I choose never to watch or go to a football game, I am separating myself from it. Someone else may choose to avoid going to the opera or ballet. Others may opt out of certain cliques.

Football, the opera, ballet and eternal life. Yeah, I see your point...not.

Quote
In none of these cases is the result eternal torment. At worst, they may miss something which they might have enjoyed had they been a bit more open, but in general, they will get to spend their time with things and people that they have a natural affinity for, and not worry about things they might have missed out on. In any case, they have solid, concrete proof that these things actually exist.

Separate yourself from your car at 80mph. I'm guessing that will be eternal.

As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.


Quote
But in the case of god, the fact that some of us simply don't happen to believe in something which there is no evidence for is supposed to condemn us to an eternity of abject misery at the very best, and unimaginable suffering in the interpretation of many.

How is that a "fair" choice? If (hypothetically) the amount of experience or evidence we have of god is simply not enough to convince us he is real, and it turns out that he is, then, frankly, it's HIS fault if we end up in a state of eternal separation from him.

Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.


Offline markinark

Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Asmoday's wasn't stupid. I just don't think you/he are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.



« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 09:02:03 AM by markinark »

Offline cheezisgoooood

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Please point out the stupidity of the questions to us, so that we may learn from your obviously superior intelligence.

Yours wasn't stupid. I just don't think you are trying very hard to understand. The whole 'free will can't exist' argument is lame. God knows everything going on in your head and heart, but the choices are still yours. He may have an understanding of where your heading, but you can still change the direction. Again, going to hell is not about a punishment as much as it is about a consequence.




The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.

Offline Asmoday

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1. Yes
2. Yes. That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets. It is just the way it is in my estimation.
In which case you have just rendered your previous argument completely useless.

First you said evil (presented by the serpent in the garden and the devil) and imperfection are necessary for choice and free will but now you say the exact opposite, that the presence of evil or badness is not needed and that choice and free will are possible in a perfect place.

You can't have it both ways.

Either evil and imperfection are necessary (which means there is no free will and no "mutual, loving relationship" with God in heaven since perfection and absence of evil transforms you into a drone) or they are not necessary (which brings us back to the question why God created evil and and imperfect world in that case if he did not want suffering and is capable of doing better).

You can't have your cake and eat it, too.

Quote
That is how Satan and Adam/Eve fell from grace (Heaven). When you exercise your choice to be not like God, you separate yourself from him. Think of two polar opposite magnets.
Funny thing is, Adam and Eve were exiled from the garden because they became more like God.
Going by the bible God never intended for them to have choice and free will (without knowledge about right and wrong you can't make decisions[1]).

Quote
Atheist like to whine, pout and belly ache about it. But, it is what it is. Oil and Water don't mix. Get over it.
I know that you like to see it that way, but that does not make it so.

The whining, pouting and belly aching comes from the theists when atheists inform them that saying something is true does not automatically make it true.

Quote
P.S. I resent the fact you think you or the mods can force me to answer questions. I avoid some questions because they lack thought, are argumentative without basis, or just plain stupid.
I don't care what you resent. You were stonewalling and you know it. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
 1. At least no decisions that are not chaotic.
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline kcrady

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Please reread my post above. I stated 'hell' is a result of the choice of man to separate himself from God, not a threat by God. It is not an Argementum ad Baculum. You should work more on reading comprehension and less on using inappropriate Latin phrases.

>snip<

Your perspective and interpretation are way off. Not surprising, given your lack of reading comprehension (see above).

So, by "separation from God" you mean that the rest of us will get to go to the Elysian Fields or Valhalla or the Duat or whatever, and only you Christians will end up chanting "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come" forever and ever?  In that case, only Christians go to Hell. ;)

Every other time I've seen a Christian use the "Hell = separation from God" argument, they go on to explain that since no good or pleasant thing can exist apart from Yahweh, Hell is still the epitome of misery and suffering (all the fire and brimstone descriptions are metaphors for this), even if there aren't demons poking people with pitchforks.  If this is your interpretation, then you're still using an Argumentum ad Baculum ("Believe what I say or you'll really, really, really suffer!  Forever!"), with a little semantic lipstick on the pig.

On the other hand, if the "sophisticated" Christian theologians are correct in arguing that Yahweh is the metaphysically necessary Ground of Being/root and source of Existence as such, then "separation from God" would entail non-existence.  IOW, "in Him we live and move and have our being" could not apply to anyone separated from Him (since such separation is incompatible with being "in Him").  Therefore we nonbelievers would Just Die (cease to exist as "us" in any sense) exactly as we expect.  On the other, other hand, it doesn't make a lot of sense to say that a non-existent person is "separate" from Yahweh or anything else.  

On the other, other, other hand, a Christian might assert that Yahweh would continue to prop up the existence of unbelievers so that they could eternally experience the misery of being alone in the Void (or whatever a separate-from-Yahweh existence is supposed to be like).  For Yahweh to remain "immanent" within and continually exert will/effort to sustain those he wishes to make miserable suggests an especially intimate kind of sadism on his part.  And maybe masochism too, if "omniscience" incorporates the "knowledge" of direct experience rather than being limited to an academic awareness-of-facts: he would have to experientially know ("in the Biblical sense") exactly what each and every person in Hell is feeling/thinking/experiencing at every instant of their tormented eternity.  

OTO4H, the whole "separation from God" argument is predicated on the idea that Yahweh's perfection cannot countenance even the tiniest most infinitesimal amount of "sin," so that any "sin" not covered by the Blood O' Jesus must be wholly extirpated from before the presence of the Lord.  If so, then Yahweh could not perpetuate the existence of unbelievers since he would also be perpetuating their "sin" and being immanent with it.  

Or is "sin" a self-existent force on a par with Yahweh?  Since it affects Yahweh so strongly that despite his putative omnipotence and inherent indestructible immortality he cannot endure its presence, it cannot be substantially weaker than he is and it cannot depend on him for its existence (otherwise Yahweh would be the author and creator of "sin").  So maybe Yahweh can somehow transfer the burden of sustaining the existence of unbelievers to "sin" somehow.  Hmmm...if it is impossible to have "sin" without a capacity for "sin" (i.e., no lust without attractive members of the appropriate gender, no gluttony without food, no pride without something to be proud of, etc.), maybe that means that Hell will be the ultimate party!  If so, that beats the pants of of the Eternal Church Service (see the descriptions in the Book of Revelation) Christians are promised!  Plus, we get Carl Sagan and Mark Twain and Hypatia of Alexandria, while they get St. Augustine and Carrie Nation and Jerry Falwell.  Unbelievers, FTW!

Of course, all that stuff is your swamp to drain, not ours, as we have no obligation to create a logically consistent Christian theology to debunk.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline CutePuppy

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As to hell, I have no real insight into why it is eternal. For now, I'm just taking His word for it. Since He seems aware of it and to have some knowledge on the subjuct. It just seems prudent.

Well of course he is aware of it, he created it, after all. Much like how he allegedly created everything else, right?

Quote
Because you've been advised that it is how the thing works. Suns give warmth and light which I 'believe' is good. Black holes suck up everthing around them and crush matter into minutia which I believe is 'bad'. It is the way it is. Stay away from black holes. To me, that is good advice. You may decide to ignore or not 'believe' this advice, that is your choice. If some day you wind up in a black hole, you will probably blame me too.

We get those unsubstantiated threats from more religions than just yours. They're all utterly baseless. It's not good advice at all. Just one baseless assertion after another.


Offline markinark


The difference between a punishment and a consequence is whether or not someone created the consequence.

God created the consequence, therefore it's a punishment.  Hell wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, sin wouldn't exist if God didn't want it to, God already knows everything we will ever do and where we will end up because he is all-knowing, so free will must not exist.  It's perfectly logical and there's no way to rectify it with theology because God is not a physical thing and you can't study imaginary concepts.

God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?

Offline cheezisgoooood

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God is, was, and always will be. Being separate from God is the 'Hell' which is created by the 'choice' to separate from God. It is like the definition of dark being without light. The definition of hell is without God. Satan chose it in heaven before man/earth were created. So, it is a consequence of choice. People have kids every day knowing there is a possibility they may, and some will, make choices which will cause their death. Why do they continue to 'create' children?

Stop blaming God for your decisions. He created you out of love and is trying to keep you from the pain of being separate from Him. Swallow your ignorant pride and accept the Good advice. You are one of those that touched the hot stove when your momma told you not to, aren't you?
Guess who else is trying to keep me from the pain of being separate from him?  Allah.  Vishnu and Kirshna.  Zeus.  Thor.  All of the other gods who makes promises as long as you obey what they want you to.

You act like the specific god that you worship is the only one there has ever been, or is.  Sorry, but there's lots of gods that people worship, and like CutePuppy said, they all make threats to you if you don't obey them.

Your hot stove analogy is terrible.  In this case, I have a better one.  There are thousands of stoves surrounding you.  They all claim to give you immortality, and they all claim that every other stove in the room is burning hot and that you should not touch it.

I'm the one who decided not to touch any stove at all even though my momma told me to touch it.


[modbreak]Pointless reposting removed[/modbreak]
[modbreak]quote that was likely botched by..."someone", fixed [/modbreak]
« Last Edit: October 19, 2010, 03:10:14 PM by Moderator_020 »