Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 22113 times)

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Offline markinark

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You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

Ah, but the problem is that if there is no god, you are still okay with calling that nothing god. That word is more important than reality.

You're impressed with that nothingness. We're not.
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Offline markinark

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I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?

We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

Offline generousgeorge

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What a crock of superstitous BS.  >:(   Go away Mark....if you have nothing better to say......threaten us with you God's wrath and go. Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness from Adam and Eve's mistake. I have no patience today for pathetic, self proclaimed evil sinner and pathetic illogical sheep.

Or....here is a great idea....get another name and pretend you are a "new" Christian and come back and spew some more nonsense. :shrug

Offline OnePerson

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I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?

We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

Another Christian who likes to sprout strong words backed up by nothing?

Offline Hatter23

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You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Hatter23

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Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

And I've heard of Vishnu, Zues, The FLying Spaghetti Monster, and Glenda the Good Witch, I assume you have as well.

Yet I don't think you believe these entities you have heard of as real. Tell me why you do not accept these entites as real.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

yes, I see you've been employing your free will in ignoring my posts.  I always love the usual attempts by a Christian to declare that he is the only OneTrueChristiantm and that he evidently must be psychic since he must be able to read minds to know what he claims.  Always fun to see Christians like you ignoring their own bible, other people, etc.  Sorry, dear but I was a Christian just the same as you once. I lost my faith, even while praying to keep it.  Why is that? Where was your god if there is free will as you claim?   

oh and about that second coming, when is that?  We've been promised it will be "real soon now" for at least two millenia. I do wonder about the desolation that some Christians must feel when they are dying and their god didn't bother to come back yet.
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Offline Alzael

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You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

Then your idea of god is completely devoid of any meaning. What do you call the being who created him, then? If you're only going to define god as the creator, which a makes an unfounded assumption that there even is one in the first place, you have no means of judging anything about him/her/it/them. You have just shown that you have not even the faintest idea of what god is, you can't possibly have any concept of what it wants, what it likes or doesn't, or even a single thing about it. You're simply talking out of your posterior and wasting everyone's time with your inane babble.
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Offline Whateverman

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Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.
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Offline Dante

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We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

I've heard of Santa Claus too. And I suspect the reason your god doesn't show himself to anyone is the same reason Santa doesn't either.

They're both imaginary.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline generousgeorge

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THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(

Offline Ashe

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Hi Mark. I definitely posted this in anticipation of an answer. Unless I've somehow missed it, you have yet to address my post. Please do so. Thanks.
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Offline Hatter23

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THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(

Sorry, but..... http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/c/Santa/dc.jpg
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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THIS HAS GONE TOOOOO FAAARRR!  SANTA IS NOT IMAGINARY!  WHO BRINGS THE PRESENTS YOU IGNORAMUS NON-BELIEVERS! SHEEEESH!!!!  >:( :o :'(

George, did you come back from your hiatus specifically to reduce the quality of the forum, or is that just an acceptable side-effect?
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.


Many people have heard of many things. It doesn't make them true. I've heard of many mythological creatures, i've heard of Japanese folklore tales like Yurei (Vengeful spirit), Kappa (Creature with a hole in the head, and more. It doesn't make them any more true than your BibleGod. I've heard of Greek Gods and Hindu Gods, i've heard of the Loch Ness and Bigfoot, and i've heard of Easter bunnies and santa claus. Nothing is certain of what we know of them, yet we heard of them. This is because they're all imgainary. Yes Mark, even your God is imaginary.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

If someone is the creator and appears before you, He is God. IMO, there are no other choices. Maybe it is something else. But, if He created the entire universe, I'm ok calling Him God.

That is my question, not Hatter's. Also, it doesn't determine if this creator is the BibleGod, he could be just any other Gods some other faiths believed in. Or it could just be a giant computer and we're all part of the programming.
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Positiveaob

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Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.

Are you serious?

If he's not, I am.  Sounds like a pretty legit question to me.  What problem do you have with this question?

Why would a creator god have a "chosen people"?  A "chosen" subset which he assists in massacring neighboring peoples numerous times, such as he (in the story) did with David?  (As a side note, how ridiculous were those stories?  An almighty god helping one of his people wipe out other groups of people?  If he wanted to do that, why not just make the enemies drop dead?  Problem solved.  Unbelievable)  

Is your problem with the "why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves?" comment?  If he had a problem with one group of people enslaving another group of people, why not rain down plagues upon the people of the United States during the mid to late 1800s?  Does he like the Israelites more than the Africans?  For that matter, why all the instructions in the bible about rules for beating your slave, but no condemnation of slavery?

Speaking of the whole Israelites being the "chosen people" nonsense, isnt it funny he doesnt help them out anymore, or at least not directly like he used to?  Why do they need us to supply them with weapons to protect themselves?  You would think if they were the "chosen people" and he used to help them take down other nations (speaking to their leaders directly, carving commandments into stone for them, etc.), he would just send down plagues on the nations that threaten them.  Why nowadays does he take the hidden, let-nature-take-its-course approach?  

Or is it now the United States that's the "chosen people"?  That must be it.  And he works by calling/placing people like GW Bush in positions of power and giving him subtle clues, and speaking to him through religious advisors, to invade countries like Iraq and spread his "word".  That must be it.  But no slavery anymore.  Now that's bad in his eyes.

Wake up, buddy.  There's no invisible being in the sky watching down upon us.  Or at least certainly not the one described in the hebrew scriptures.  They were the "chosen people" because it was their friggin' belief system!!!  Just because the Chinese people were at the center of their mythology, Indian people were at the center of their etc etc etc.

You are a christian because you were raised in a time and place where christianity predominated.  Time to snap out of it and move on.  You are a part of a large-scale cult.  Nothing more.
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Offline Positiveaob

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Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

I think everyone else defeated this point of yours pretty well.  I'm curious, why do you think any of us should hold the god described in ancient hebrew mythology in any higher regard than any other god or gods described in the mythology of ancient cultures what do you feel it is that separates this god from the others? 

Please dont respond back with some nonsense like, "He's real to me".  Back it up.  Consider me a blank slate right now and explain why the god worshipped by the hebrew people a couple of millennia ago has any more credibility than any other deity from cultures in a different parts of the world before or after this period of time.

Let me ask you, do you believe you would be a christian right now if you had been born and raised in Kandahar (and still lived there today)?  Why not?

Do you think you would have been a christian if you had been born and raised in the Andes Mountains during the 13th or 14th centuries?  Why not? 

How about if you had been born and raised in what is now Beijing during the 6th century AD?  Why not?  How about in what is now Nevada in the 15th century?  How about Athens in the 3rd century BCE?  How about Egypt in the 6th century BCE?  Etc etc etc etc.

Do you really just think all those literally millions of cultures throughout mankind's history got it wrong, but somehow the one you were raised in just got it right?

Or maybe, just maybe, they are all just cultural superstitions, kept alive through fear, and often times force, and you just happen to have been born in a time and place where the predominant belief was christianity?  Ever occur to you?
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Offline Asmoday

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Mark, I'm still waiting for your reply to this post from to pages ago.

I'm especially interested in your answers to the following parts:

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

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No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.
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Offline Positiveaob

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You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


Are YOU serious?  What “logic” have you given us?  All I have seen is  bunch of garbage about how your god is the real god without anything to back it up whatsoever. If you’re such a “logical” sort of guy, give me a “logical” answer to my previous post:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=16078.msg361884#msg361884

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

???  How old are you?  “Listen to the sound of a pulsar”???  I’m supposed to imagine some sci-fi sound effect in my head and that’s supposed to make me go “Holy Sh*t!  It’s god!!!  Please forgive me for doubting you!”

What century are we living in now?
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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What century are we living in now?

Atheists: in the 21st century

Markinark: In 3rd century BCE.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Jessie

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We are still in the 'exercise your freewill' stage. He's giving us the opportunity to choose Him. He will reveal Himself at the 'second coming'. People choose to separate themselves from God. They will wind up in Hell because their choices will separate them from God (Hell, i.e torment). It is a result of choice not a childish, petty action.

No, I do not choose to be an atheist. I didn't wake up one day and think to myself, "Gee, I'm tired of this Christianity crap. Imma gonna be a atheist now!1! *snaps fingers* DONE!" Nope, it doesn't work that way. As I was presented with scientific evidence that contradicted what I was once told, my views slowly changed, but it didn't happen over night. Even if I wanted to believe in a god, I can't, because there's no supporting evidence. That's how my brain is wired, and I can't change it, and God would know this, which brings me to my next point...

God is supposedly all-knowing, which means he knows in advance who is going to accept him and who isn't, yet he chooses to create those individuals, knowing well in advance they won't believe in him, and then tortures them forever for doing exactly what he knew they were going to do. Sorry, but your god's a dick. 

Quote
Every poster on this site is choosing daily. And, none can claim they don't know God. You've heard of Him.

So because we've heard of something, that means it's real? So you believe in unicorns, fairies, Big Foot, the yeti, the Loch Ness Monster, aliens, every other god that man has ever believed in, Lord Voldemort, the list goes on... I'm sure you've heard of these things, right? So you must believe they exist.
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Offline markinark

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First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there. I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.


Offline Agamemnon

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That's a lot of fallacies and irrational thinking for a short two-paragraph response, markinark.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline markinark

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Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid?

No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

Why did you have the kid? If he never gets the motorcycle, he could still run out into the street and get hit by a car. Did you warn him about that? Why didn't you practice safe sex and avoid the possibility of him ever getting hurt. I'm calling DHS.....

« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:30:13 PM by markinark »

Offline markinark

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That's a lot of fallacies and irrational thinking for a short two-paragraph response, markinark.

Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

Offline OnePerson

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Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

Fallacies don't really require proof, but here they are.

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

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I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

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I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.

Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.
Whether or not it's good philosophical advice is another topic.

Offline markinark

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Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

Fallacies don't really require proof, but here they are.

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.

Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

Quote
I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

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I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.

Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.
Whether or not it's good philosophical advice is another topic.

The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.