Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 20085 times)

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Offline Asmoday

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Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

[...]

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.
Two questions then:

1) Is heaven perfect?

2) Is there free will in heaven?

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No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.
Since when does an omnipotent entity have to "try like hell" to get something done, if it wants it done?

And once again: If God is omniscient and the creator of everything then God is not "trying like hell" to keep people from going to hell. In this case God not only knew what would happen to those people but actually decided to create the world in such a way that it would happen.

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It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?
If God appeared today, then we would have a choice.

Without God appearing your belief hasn't more evidence speaking for it than any other religion on earth, which means there is no choice at all but it's just completely random gamble.


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The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons

  made by absurd people, not God.
You're putting the cart before the horse here.

The point is: People dying for words written on paper is neither impressive nor is it a sign that those words on paper are of divine origin.
Once again you just try to counter with a claim without backing said claim up with any evidence at all.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Mark, people kill people for absurd reasons by absurd people, there is nothing impressive about that. People of Aztec religion have murdered maidens and children to appease their Gods and Goddesses. Muslims are stoning women to death for being raped nowadays, many Christians in Africa are torturing and killing children for being witches. Hindus have killed children to appease their Gods. And many more. What is so impressive about that? It's heinous, it's revolting, it's sick, and it's irrational. Has any Atheists ever did any of these things? Absolutely not! I'm not saying Atheists are perfect little saints, we're just not that insane. Killing people for religious reasons is too insane and that is why nowadays in the civilized societies, we don't do this. Unfortunately, many primitive minded people like those in Middle East and Africa are just wildly dangerous and should be stopped. Are you tell me that you like to believe in superstitutious nonsense where people killed one another over it? Sorry, but if there's a God and there's Hell, I'm choosing hell because i would like to get the hell away from people like you.
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline Ashe

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Please quote properly, markinark. I'm having an incredibly hard time following your last post.

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

Your still not addressing my point! Please address what I'm saying rather than repeating baseless assertions.

Freewill necessitates a choice. Fine. For sake of argument, I'll accept that.

That does not address the fact that God is allegedly all-powerful and can prevent "badness" if he so chose. The "goodness" and "badness" are irrelevant if God had willed there to be no "badness" in the first place. An all-powerful God has the ability to create a reality in which freewill could exist along with nothing but good choices.

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Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.

Again, you haven't addressed my point. Please go back and address the motorcycle example and respond to it specifically: Would it be prudent for me to attach a device to put out the fire when I could've just changed my design in the first place?

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No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.

No, God knows exactly who will go to hell! What do you think omniscience is, anyway?! An all-knowing God must by very definition of the word know precisely who will go to hell and who will not, even before that person exists! If you disagree, please present to me a logical argument for a scenario in which an all-knowing deity would fail to know something.

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It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?

How is that relevant to anything I've said?

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Exactly. And, they were closer to the situation than you.

Exactly what? The fact that someone really, really believes something does not mean it's true, no matter how close to the situation they are. Do you see the difference, or do you not?
2 miles!
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Offline Positiveaob

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

“All knowing” and “freewill universe” are mutually exclusive.  There’s no way around that.  A being cannot be “all knowing” unless everything is pre-destined.  If everything is pre-destined, one cannot have free will.  It’s a simple as that.

Your very existence, if there is free will, would have to depend on an infinite number of free will decisions, all going just the right way, among all your ancestors dating back millions of years.  Any one of them decides any one tiny thing differently, and you are not here right now.  And thus any plan that some god would have for you would depend on a whole lot of luck to come to fruition. 

For example, your father could have done any of a thousand different things differently the day he met your mother, or he could have used his “free will” and married someone else, or a different person could have used his “free will” and decided to drive drunk and run over your mother and kill her when she was a little girl, or your grandmother on your mother’s side could have used her “free will” and had an abortion instead of having your mother, or your great-great-grandfather could have used his “free will” and committed suicide or make a mistake in World War I and get himself killed before marrying your great-great-grandmother, or your parents could have used their “free will” and had sex on a different night during a different menstrual cycle as the night you were conceived (and “you” would have a completely different chromosomal make-up making “you” someone different) etc etc etc etc etc. 

It simply doesnt work if you are trying to make some argument that there is an omniscient creator being in the sky and that we have “free will”. 

And what the hell do you mean “prudent”?  Why would such a god create his beings in such an imperfect way if he needed to “anticipate the need for a savior”? 

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When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.
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I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

We got to stop with the whole parent-child analogies, they fail on so many levels.  A parent (or at least a good one) doesnt stay completely hidden from his/her children and expect them to worship him/her!! 

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Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me?

Bolded by me.  At what point did this invisible god-being “give his life for me”???  Near as I can tell, if you believe this story, he just took a trip down to earth for a few decades then went back to heaven.  He doesnt have a “life” and never did. 

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Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years?

The bible, and how it came into being, is the most powerful argument against the existence of a god that I can come up with. 

The scriptures that became the bible represented the local religious beliefs of a group of people in the mid-east over 2 millennia ago.  They werent significantly more far-fetched than the other tall-tales floating around different parts of the world around that time.  There were many “documented” legends in various other parts of the world (e.g. the Iliad in Greece, Fengshen Yany in China, etc etc) Like all local legends, the ones who wrote it were the “chosen people” and their god or gods took care of them against other peoples during wars, etc.

Of course, mankind, even by idiotic creationist estimations, existed long long before the hebrew scriptures came into being.  So you have to ask yourself what took him so long, if this was "his" word.  Why all the other "words" prior to this?  Unless of course this was just the local mythology of an ancient peoples and such a god never really existed.

These scriptures were then compiled by a committee in the 3rd century because an emperor wanted to unify his empire under a common religion.  Think about that for a second.  A committee decided what words represented a holy truth and what words did not.  How could you possibly think that is how an all-powerful creator being would get his word out to his creation!!!  Why would this subset of his creation be necessary to determine what were and werent his words.  Couldnt they have been wrong?  Maybe the books that didnt make the cut were really his words and the truth!   How the hell did these guys get it right?  And why would it need to be a committee if they were being divinely inspired???

Why wouldnt the translations then be inspired?  You would think if this were the word of a creator god he would want those of us who dont speak ancient hebrew to get his word too.  Why are there dozens of different versions in english alone? 

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The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Not impressive at all.  Do you want me to put a list together of crazy beliefs people have given their life for?  Do you believe there was a spaceship behind the Halle-Bopp comet?  The members of Heaven’s Gate gave their lives in that belief.  Do you believe that the 20 hijackers of 9/11 are in heaven with 70 virgins right now?  Do you?
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

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Offline Hatter23

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We don't even have to go to the myth of A&E to see that "freewill," is not an answer. Take a four year old Jewish girl killed in a concentration camp in 1944. She followed what their parents told her to, was rounded up by the government, then killed. She did not have the freewill to not choke on the gas. She did not have the freewill not to be burned and turned into a stinking cloud of death above Auchwitz.  By Christian Mythology she is also doomed to an eternity of torment, though said God could have appeared to her in her dreams. Could have had the Camp Gaurds realize what they were doing and open the gates, fall down, and weep in shame. He could have allowed the Allies to have arrived two year earlier and liberate the camp. None of this happened. That is the Deity you worship Mark. We do not.

It is clear to us, that no action is coming from this Deity because it is fictional.

Appearing before us would no more take away freewill than prisoners, knowing they are in prison, and knowing they are observed by gaurds, still do acts that are forbidden in prison. I've worked in prisons and it was a daily occurance. So knowledge of right and wrong, observation, and consequences does not prevent freewill.




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Timtheskeptic

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The great Pink God Bunny is real because it is now written on a computer screen. It has been around for over 4,000 years because I said so. It gave its own beloved son to die in the vegetable garden choking on poison and being shredded by the farmer's harvester for your Sin of not eating your carrots. He has risen three days later and gives you a choice, "Choose my way, or my farmer's gonna get cha!" How about that Mark? Does that make you want to worship the pink bunny now? No? Then answer me these questions.


1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

2) Why would you think that people murdering other people for their religious beliefs is impressive?

3) Have you learned about all the atrocities committed by the Azterc religioon and the Islamic religion?

4) Do you really think that words on the Bible, despite countless contradictions and errors, is really worth believing in?


5) If the bible tells you to strike the newborn in the face to shake off demons, would you do it?
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Offline nogodsforme

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http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm
The scariest part of this essay is :
"The Christian is NOT free to think as he wishes. These are NOT things we can happily differ on.  NO Christian has the freedom to just ‘disagree’ on what is plainly set forth in God’s word." Sheesh. Just shut up and turn off your brain!

As if there is ANYTHING in the bible that is "plainly set forth"! There would not be thousands of different Christian churches if it was all plainly set forth. Should you baptize babies or not? Should you baptize at all? Should you drink alcohol or not? Should you kill gay people and women who don't scream loudly enough when they are being raped?

Or should you just imitate Jesus? Be born to a teen mom, never marry, hang out with whores and a bunch of other unmarried guys, drink a lot of wine, and get killed by the police in your thirties? Like a gay biker dude.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Alzael

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And besides which, in the story of Moses god hardens the pharoahs heart and forces him to refuse to free Moses' people. I think that alone negates any possible case of using 'free will' as an excuse.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
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Offline markinark


1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

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2) Why would you think that people murdering other people for their religious beliefs is impressive?

People murdering people out of their own misconceptions isn't impressive at all. People willing to hold to a belief in the face of such idiots
until they are finally martyred tends to make me believe they aren't perpetuating a myth.

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3) Have you learned about all the atrocities committed by the Azterc religioon and the Islamic religion?

Religion is manmade. Atrocities are committed by misguided people.

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4) Do you really think that words on the Bible, despite countless contradictions and errors, is really worth believing in?

A study of the Bible in search of Truth as opposed to attempting to find an escape clause tends to mollify most of the 'errors/contadictions' which, IMHO, are usually based on biased perspectives and conclusions.  

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5) If the bible tells you to strike the newborn in the face to shake off demons, would you do it?

I'm not going to go around slapping newborns. If I were to feel the newborn was possessed by a demon, I might ask, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the demon to identify himself. If he did, I would be tempted to slap the baby (assuming I could locate the obscure verse I'm sure you're bating me with). But more than likely, I would first attempt to cast the demon out in the name of Jesus Christ. Might try a little Holy Water too. Of course, the response of the demon indirectly confirms the existence of God. So, I'd just wait to hear what He wanted me to do.

Offline Dante

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1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.


c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline markinark

And besides which, in the story of Moses god hardens the pharoahs heart and forces him to refuse to free Moses' people. I think that alone negates any possible case of using 'free will' as an excuse.

It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.

Offline Don_Quixote

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Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.

Offline Dante

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It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses'  freewill with regard to choosing God.

You just contradicted item c), which I quoted above, did you not?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Hatter23

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    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

And so by that external stimuli, I would be FORCED to act that way, or would I choose to act that way? I may choose to act that way, but the still would not remove my freewill not to. Or are you saying everyone who met Jesus was suddenly bereft of Freewill, so A&E who saw God in your story, were bereft of freewil, so Satan, in your story, was bereft of freewill.

So your argument is as full of holes as a spaghetti strainer.

« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 03:51:23 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.

I am curious just what you think alters free will.  Is this free will, when god makes people think what he wants them to think?

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Exodus 12:36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

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Exodus 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. 22 Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, 23 and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "

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Exodus 10:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."
when someone says they've done something for the express purpose of getting their way, how is this not abrogating free will?

Same with Paul? Nothing like a forced conversion on the road to Tarsus! Your claims of free will and choice are belied by your own holy book.  



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Offline Alzael

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1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.


So the first two start off with "I believe" which basically removes any validity of the statements having any value since you have no way to back up anything that you're saying. Also the first two lines in no way interfere with "free will". All they do is mean that we're now making an informed decision. There's nothing inherent in that that forces us to worship god, it just means that now we know for sure that he exists and have a clear idea of what he wants. As for the last one the same thing applies. Even if we did suddenly know the "Truth" in one great mind-blowing godgasm, and even if we had to accept that the reality exists. It still has no effect on whether or not we choose to follow. Again all this does is give us the ability to make an informed choice. As has already been pointed out, there were others who had talked to god and seen him directly, and they still sinned.

It doesn't negate Pharoahs or Moses' freewill with regard to choosing God. It deals only with their current state of captivity with which God was using to chastise HIS people. To effect a change, modify behavior, much like your momma spankin' your backside.


This isn't just about choosing god though. You've claimed that bad things happen in the world because humans do them through our choices. Well I've just pointed out an instant of several terrible things that happened that had nothing to do with human choice. They were forced into motion by god. At this point in time the egyptians didn't even know about your god. That was the entire point of the plagues. It was gods way of showing them how great and mighty he is, because your god is nothing if not all about his ego-stroking. The first born in egypt died just so that god could look cool, and human choice had absolutely nothing to do. In fact god put a hold on human choice and made the humans refuse to do what he demanded them to do so that he would have an excuse to punish them some more.

"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline Timtheskeptic

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    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

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People murdering people out of their own misconceptions isn't impressive at all. People willing to hold to a belief in the face of such idiots until they are finally martyred tends to make me believe they aren't perpetuating a myth.

“Oh look, they murdered millions of these Indian guys because they don’t believe in the flying serpent.” Does that make the flying serpent real?

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Religion is manmade. Atrocities are committed by misguided people.

Well that I can agree with, but that can be said for your religious belief and it still doesn’t make it real.

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A study of the Bible in search of Truth as opposed to attempting to find an escape clause tends to mollify most of the 'errors/contadictions' which, IMHO, are usually based on biased perspectives and conclusions. 

And your God didn’t see that coming?

“No, no, no, no. I said four! Not 6, four! Geez get it right!”

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I'm not going to go around slapping newborns.

I didn’t say you were.

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If I were to feel the newborn was possessed by a demon, I might ask, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the demon to identify himself. If he did, I would be tempted to slap the baby (assuming I could locate the obscure verse I'm sure you're bating me with). But more than likely, I would first attempt to cast the demon out in the name of Jesus Christ. Might try a little Holy Water too. Of course, the response of the demon indirectly confirms the existence of God. So, I'd just wait to hear what He wanted me to do.

Ok, let me pull out my copy of Harry Potter and try seeing if I can find a spell to cast on my cell phone to make it float.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 04:20:07 PM by Timtheskeptic »
Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
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I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline nogodsforme

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markinark, there are some questions that have been bothering me since I was a kid:

How did the snake get into the garden of Eden?
God must have put it there, because he created everything in the garden.

So why did he put it there?
He must have known what would happen, because he knows everything.

Why did god want the snake to get Eve to eat the fruit?
He had to know that the snake would do that, so he must have wanted it to happen.

Why did god want to curse humans to hell, when he just finished making them? And knowing that they were going to hell, why did he set up this whole scenario in the first place?

It is like making up a batch of cookies and telling two kids not to eat them, but putting a poison one in there. You know the kids will eat the cookies and it is possible they will get the bad one. Yeah, it is their own damn fault if they eat it and die, because they were disobedient. But you set up the whole scenario and put the poison cookie in the pile. Why? Why the "test" of obedience that you know they will fail?  (Why not just make some nice delicious cookies and give the kids some?) You can hardly argue that this is the action of a loving person....more like a psycho abusive Mommie Dearest, tricking the kids so they can be punished. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline RaymondKHessel

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L.M.F.A.O.  :D

Man oh man. Have we really gotten a bonafide discussion about Jumby the Possessed-by-a-demon devil baby!?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh shit man. I'm crying here. This is great.

OOGA BOOGA BITCHES!!!!  :D ;D :D
Born with insight, and a raised fist.

Offline Hatter23

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L.M.F.A.O.  :D

Man oh man. Have we really gotten a bonafide discussion about Jumby the Possessed-by-a-demon devil baby!?

BWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Oh shit man. I'm crying here. This is great.

OOGA BOOGA BITCHES!!!!  :D ;D :D

Not only that, in all that detail, did you notice he failed to answer the original question?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline superfly

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If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

oh, i believe now. i just came face to face with His awesome power:




WOW!!11!!eleventeen!! He really get's around.


He's even on Mars.


Say what you will about the sweet miracle of unquestioning faith, I consider a capacity for it terrifying and absolutely vile!
Kurt Vonnegut

Offline markinark


1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.

You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.

Offline markinark


    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

Offline Hatter23

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You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


No, that is not the point of that statement, and I find your minterpretation dubious. In the Bibe, several characters have direct interaction with the character Yahweh. These interaction seem in no way to change their freewill. In fact, some of the Characters seem to actually defy Yahweh, even after direct contact.

Particularly:
Adam and Eve, Jonah, Sampson, Cain, Noah(after the flood), Nebuchadnezzar, Moses, Abraham, Job(arguable), and David.


Therefore, your point is moot
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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You didn’t answer my question. Why won’t you answer the question? So if someone is a creator and appears before me, I would have to accept that it’s for real, but it could just be anybody, not your God. This just begs the question; which God would it be? Or what if it wasn’t a God but something else?

No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

So not only do you avoid answering the question, you throw in some red herrings, and a badly worded insult. Tim wins, you lose.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline jetson

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No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

There is nothing to deny.  All gods are imaginary.  If your god was real, we would not be denying it's very existence, we would be discussing it's attributes.  Until theists can show that their god is real, all of their claims are nothing more than mythology.

Here's something that your god can consider, if he is real:

Quote
Dear God,

You are about as powerful as a pimple on the asshole of life.  You mean nothing.  You are a miserable and pathetic failure at everything you touch.  Your commands are stupid and pointless, and you make no sense in your ridiculously inspired nonsense writings.  When you are ready, I challenge your weakness directly, anytime, anywhere.  You better bring some friends, because I will go postal on your sorry punk ass.  Bring it, bitch.

Yours Truly,

Jetson

Now, I realize that your god can easily dismiss my tiny human cry for help.  However, I suspect that in his royal pettiness, he will likely strike me dead via a heart attack many years from now, or inflict me with cancer, or speed up the death of one of my parents.  But I can say with great certainty that he will remain entirely invisible and silent (thanks to the fact that he doesn't exist.)

I can also predict with great certainty that any Christian who is offended by my blasphemy, will give me their own version of God's wrath, and how I will be burning in fake hell forever.  To that I say - huzzah!!!!!!


Offline rev45

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No, you could continue to deny. It's your choice. Listen to the sound of a pulsar. God The Flying Spaghetti Monster holds the universe in His hand. Instead of defiant, I bet you wet yourself.

Don't be so silly.  Everyone knows that The Flying Spaghhetti Monster is the one true god.
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Offline Dante

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1) How exactly does your God appearing to us remove our free will?

    If you were to come face to face with the power of the creator of the universe:
          a) I believe you would recognize Him for what He is
          b) I believe you would understand all He wanted you to understand
          c) And, the Truth would be undeniable. Therefore, you would have no choice, just acceptance of reality.

c) Which in no way limits one's choice to worship, or to not. If the truth is the same truth illustrated by your bible, that is.

You are absolutely right. I was assuming everyone is logical.


I am absolutely right, thank you for conceding it. So, with that established, there is no good reason why your god would not show himself, and make himself known so as to maximize the number of his creations joining him in heaven, if he loves each and every one of us, as so many Christians claim.

Why do you suppose an omnipotent deity wouldn't want himself to be known? Why do you suppose he remains hidden, effectively sending millions of otherwise innocent people to burn in hell for all eternity for the sole reason of thinking that he is imaginary? Does that sound like what a loving father would do?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline markinark

Why does god have "preferred people"? He supposedly loves every one of us and yet he despics egyptians over HIS people. If god gave free will to everyone, why didnt he just let egyptians keep their slaves? After all, the slaves would have had the free will to organize and fight but noooo god almighty couldn't and had to use another human to do his dirty work.

Makes me look at god like the mafia boss who is hiring Moses to his dirty business.

Are you serious?