Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..

[Agamemnon]

^^^ I'm going to have to remember that, xphobe. I have several loved ones that believe because they want to believe, not because any of it makes sense. They will freely admit this...And then they will immediately start with the post hoc rationalizations and around and around we go.

[nogodsforme]

I want to believe

You can stop right there.  The rest is background noise.

Ahhhhhhhhhhmen. Sung in B-flat.

[Timtheskeptic]

My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

And what evidence do you have that supports that?

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Unfortunately, just because words on a piece of paper say this, doesn’t make it true. I could just as much as write, “There is a pink bunny rabbit that casts magic spells that created everything.”

When parents give birth to their children, they don’t threaten to torture them forever if they didn’t do things their way. That isn’t free will. That is manipulation and loaded choices.

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

So you’re saying that choosing to eat from a tree was their choice to be evil? So if the mother told her child that eating the cookie and yet disobeys her, it means that she chose to be evil? Sorry, but when children disobeys their parents, it’s not because they chose to be evil; they just didn’t understand why they can’t do what their parents forbade them from doing. Basically, Adam and Eve are just children who didn’t know right from wrong and yet they’re treated horribly and now everyone has to say, “Oh my, what an evil, wicked children they were.” That’s not love, that’s horrible and bad parenting. And besides, why punish someone for something they didn’t know in the first place?

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior.

So basically, the sky daddy decides to bring out the worst pain to Adam just for one little thing they didn’t understand and the only way for the sky daddy to forgive him is to do things his way and to accept the death of one man the sky daddy murders. Wonderful, your sky daddy is a sociopathic dictator and you want to worship that. Sorry, but I much rather hang out with Satan than your God. At least Satan has killed only ten people whereas your God murders millions.

So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York.  When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

That makes no sense. In no way does that sound like we’re at fault if our daddy moves us to another state. If our dad makes his own choice, then he’s responsible for his actions alone, we have nothing to do with it. My folks moved us in Arizona, that’s not my choice, that’s theirs. Why should I have to be punished for something they did?

“Oh, your parents made their choice, but I’m gonna f**k you up along with them.” Yeah, real merciful.  *Rolls eyes*

The old Testament offer was adherence to the 'laws'/'promises' of God to Abraham and his descendants who were believing and faithful to God.

The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

Translation: “Oh look, words! On a piece of paper! It must be true!”

The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

Did the great Flood actually kill everything on the Earth except Noah and his ark?

I have no freaking idea. To the writers, the answer would be a definite 'yes'. But in actuality, it really doesn't make much difference. The point of the story is evil will perish. It is an inevitable end to this physical realm.

Translation: “Words! On a piece of paper! It has to be true because words are on a piece of paper!”

The universe is destined to die. Black hole, supernova, collapsing universe; something will cause the end.  Maybe surviving this is a +/-, yin/yang, light/dark kind of thing. If you choose a path that leaves you separate from God, you're not gonna like the place you wind up (the whole 'Hell' thing). I don't know how that works, but I don't want to find out either. I trust my FATHER to tell me how to avoid it just as I trusted my mother when she told me the stove was hot.

Translation: “We’re all gonna die! Daddy don’t leave me! Please, I’ll be your BITCH!”

I search for eternal truth, not facts.

Translation: “I just want to live in la-la land!”

why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

What makes you think the Bible is right? How do you know that all the other religions are wrong but yours is true? All because of someone teaching you about the Bible when growing up? Sorry, but I rather have facts than fantasies.



[modbreak]Attributed quotes[/modbreak]

[snkiesch]

Markinark,  What you do not seem to understand if your god is omniscient He knew before he created  Adam and Eve were going to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, not that they might and it was a test but they would.  How can you put the the blame on Adam and Eve when they did what god, Jesus and the holy spirit gave them no choice?


I do not care how you try to spin it A&E had no choice. Your omnibenevolent god planned on all the child rapes, torture, starvation, and whatever evil you can come up before he created anything.  Here is somemore of your loving god's followers interpretation of your god's word. They have biblical support that some of those children after spending their whole live being tortured get to spend eternity in hell. How can you say you love and worship such a monster? http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

[rev45]

This came from the article snkiesch posted.

The reformed men who teaches the automatic heavenly destination of small children must think very hard. In believing and teaching it, they thereby reject plain truth; they imbibe heresy and encourage others to think the same way; they reject the principles of the Reformation and of scripture; they reject election, the bastion of salvation; they reject the way of salvation; they reject God’s grace.

I'm have some trouble wanting to accept the grace from a god who won't give any to a baby who's only supposed sin was being born. 

[Agamemnon]

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm

[Ashe]

Markinark, you've not really addressed my points.

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

All choices involve consequences (burden).

Assuming this is true, it doesn't change the fact that God is the one to have set it all in motion. You haven't addressed this. Before mankind, there was God. God decided to create mankind. Being God, he knew - even before he started the process - that man was a flawed creation and would chose evil.
Instead of reworking the creation so mankind would never get so far as to choose it, God went along with it anyway. Do you understand?

Sacrifice:  I view the sacrifice of himself (son) necessary to balance the human flaw and insure repatriation with God. It is God going the extra mile to get man back to what is acceptable in spite of man's inadequacies.

Again, man's inadequacies because of God. Man never had to have inadequacies if God didn't will it.

It is not God torturing, it is just reality. See Satan.

Reality made by who?! God!

The point isn't to tell the difference between parable and a literal story. The point is to discern truth from the parable/story.

I'm not asking about the point. I think it's entirely relevant to be able to tell whether something is intended to be literal or figurative. So I'd like to know.

A fact is truth. Truth may be understood without a step-by-step factual guide.

This doesn't answer my question. Please give me a specific example. I don't see how you can look for "truth" without "facts" being involved.

If I say you will die if you drive off a cliff and you do, I am honest and you chose badly.

No, a more apt example would be if I were on the only path available (because that's the only one you built), and at the end of the path were a cliff that you specifically put there. Then you tell me I can either hand my life over to you or drive off the cliff. You're being honest, but it doesn't mean you're not an asshole for setting up that situation or giving me choices that aren't actually choices.

[xphobe]

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

I don't recall reading that the serpent was identified as Satan, but ok let's say it was Satan.  Is Satan an independent timeless deity like God's evil twin brother?  So if you "believe" in Satan (meaning you acknowledge his existence although you don't follow him) aren't you actually a polytheist?

Or did God create Satan?  In other words, God is responsible for evil existing.  That would mean that Satan is part of God's plan.  Again, Check!  You're back to not actually having free will.

[cheezisgoooood]

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.HTML

Broken link. Fixed:

http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00126_do_babies_automatically_go_to_heaven_web.htm

Great.  Now I want to punch someone right in the balls.

[generousgeorge]

LOL   

[blue]

Gah. Calvinists are always such a bundle of happiness and hope. 

[Cyberia]

God gave us choice (freewill). I'm under the impression the separation from God (sin) already existed as evidenced by the serpent (Satan).

I don't recall reading that the serpent was identified as Satan, but ok let's say it was Satan.  Is Satan an independent timeless deity like God's evil twin brother?  So if you "believe" in Satan (meaning you acknowledge his existence although you don't follow him) aren't you actually a polytheist?

It's not identified as Satan, because it's NOT.  It's a Chthonic Serpent, which, according to mythology......wait for it.....guards Trees of Knowledge.  Mythologies get borrowed, this is one of those cases.  The bible is myth.

If it was Satan, how did it get INTO the garden in the first place???

If it was Satan, why didn't god intervene immediately, knowing that A+E explicitly did NOT have knowledge of Good and Evil, and were not prepared to resist?

Did god NOT know?  Was he unable to intervene?

It's all fiction.

[kcrady]

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Cliff Notes version: Because Universe behaves exactly the way it would if no such entity/entities existed.

Somewhat longer version:  In order to legitimately call an entity (whether it is a god or a cat) "loving," we need to be able to actually observe it behaving in this manner.  It should be known to show affection, to act in compassion toward suffering in those it loves, etc..  If it exhibits no behavior at all, then there is no way to tell if it is "loving," "hateful," "hungry" or (should it also be inherently undetectable) if it is real at all.  In like manner, if the entity has a great store of knowledge (much less being "All Knowing"), this too should manifest in its behavior and its communications.  If someone claims to have expert knowledge in, say, horsemanship, we should expect that she be able to ride.  If the entity in question is also supposed to be "Intelligent," then we should expect it to be able to apply its knowledge efficaciously.  Again, this will show up in its behavior.

In the case of gods, we observe no behavior at all.  There is no way to tell the difference between a "Loving, All Knowing, Intelligent" entity that does nothing and a "Hateful, Ignorant, Stupid" entity that does nothing.  If you wish to try to attribute the portrayed actions of Yahweh in Biblical mythology to your god (rather like pointing to the deeds of Darth Vader and claiming to have proven the existence of the Force), then, as others here have already pointed out, you're going to be confronted with the fact that Yahweh isn't very bright.

[kcrady]

Regarding the "free will" argument:

There is only "free will" in the sense being discussed here if there are actual options.  That is, the entity with the "free will" must have had a genuine potential for making different choices in a given situation.  So, prior to the Eden Debacle, it must have been genuinely possible for Adam and Eve to have chosen not to eat the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, or to have hurried off and chomped down the fruit of the Tree of Life before Yahweh showed up, thus completing their ascent to divinity before he had a chance to kick them out of the Garden.  If it was not genuinely possible--if there was only one potential result of Adam and Eve being placed in the Garden--then they could not have had "free will."

It follows from this that if any punishments or other consequences from the eating of the Fruit preceded the actual deed, that Adam and Eve could not have had "free will," and that their action in the Garden was foreordained.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

--Ephesians 1:4

But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

--I Peter 1:19-20

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

--Revelation 17:8, emphasis added

From passages like these, we see that certain things, such as the sacrifice of Christ and the salvation of some and not others, were foreordained from "before the foundation of the world."  This can only mean that there was never any potential or possibility for Adam and Eve to have made a different choice.  In like manner, Pontius Pilate could not have had "free will" to say, "No, I'm letting this Jesus fellow go, and if you Jewish leaders don't like it, I can make enough crosses to go around."

"From the foundation of the world," Yahweh would have known exactly what would happen, and that there were no alternative potential futures for the humans he was about to create.  It was not as if he could hope that things would work out better than they did, and end up disappointed in the choices his humans made, given that better choices leading to better futures were available to them.  No, the essentials were foreordained "from the foundation of the world" (or "from before the foundation of the world")

So, according to the Biblical story then, Yahweh is the only entity who has a real choice among viable options.  Assuming that he has "free will," he would likely have had a wide range of possibilities.  He could make worlds without humans, worlds inhabited by sentient cephalopods, Gardens without magical Trees or talking serpents, Gardens without a prohibition on eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, different rule-sets and so on.  Or, if some element of his nature ("perfect righteousness" perhaps?) somehow constrained him to one and only one possible Earth and only one rule-set for the "game" of life, he would still presumably have had the choice to create, or not.

In this latter case, knowing that creating a world with humans would inevitably result in most of those humans suffering horribly for eternity, a loving Deity could still decide that such a price was simply too high, and choose not to create.  Unless those "foundation of the world" passages apply to Yahweh as well[1], in which case Yahweh has no "free will" either.

1.	I.e., the "foundation of the world" itself is already foreordained, so Yahweh could not choose not to found the world

[Brayton.l]

My experience is that it is impossible to argue with someone who wants to believe. I think that the majority of the faithful are positively determined to believe. When presented with indisputable fact, I can see the gears turning in their minds, trying to come up with any good reason to validate their position. At that point, my next comment is invariably, "Lets face it, you believe because you want to, not because there is any valid reason, other than it makes you feel good." Argument from personal incredulity, "I just cant imagine a world without god".  It gets frustrating to say the least.

[markinark]

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years? The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.

[generousgeorge]

My wife tells me all the time...... "I know what I know what I know."  Go argue with someone else....hands in ears.... lalalalalalalalla!   Couch sure gets hard!   

[generousgeorge]

Mark.... in the kindest possible way..... I call it deluded. Your post is a perfect example of what Brayton just said.

[markinark]

In this latter case, knowing that creating a world with humans would inevitably result in most of those humans suffering horribly for eternity, a loving Deity could still decide that such a price was simply too high, and choose not to create.  Unless those "foundation of the world" passages apply to Yahweh as well[1], in which case Yahweh has no "free will" either.

1.	I.e., the "foundation of the world" itself is already foreordained, so Yahweh could not choose not to found the world

Why most? Evidently, He thinks it is worth it.

[markinark]

Mark.... in the kindest possible way..... I call it deluded. Your post is a perfect example of what Brayton just said.

True. But between Brayton's understanding of all things versus history recorded by Christians and Jews over thousands of years telling a consistent plausible story of God, I think I'll go with the latter. He doesn't look that smart.

[Omen]

True. But between Brayton's understanding of all things versus history recorded by Christians and Jews over thousands of years telling a consistent plausible story of God

Recorded history of cultures that not only existed at the same time but before, contradict all of biblical myth.  Archaeological evidence contradicts all of biblical myth.  Every single field of scientific study contradicts biblical myth.

What are you taking about 'recorded history'?

[generousgeorge]

I cannot stand it I have to point out how illogical and self serving you are being,.

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.   What in the world are you talking about?The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

 It requires some kind of reason though, when you are claiming talking snakes, walking dead, virgin births and stories that anywhere else would be the stuff of legends, myths and Science fiction.  

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me.

Drowning the whole flipping planet seems pretty indicitave of little love lost.  

This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years?

 The credibility of the message is not how long it has been on the market, it is..... does it makes any kind of realistic sense without resorting to "its magic".

The fact the Bible [ is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

More often they were putting other men to death.

And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.

 Right, but we get to fry in the big barbecue below according to your loving father.  

[Omen]

The concepts of Satan, th..

You're still mindlessly listing the fantasies you believe in, without any logical explanatory attempt to tie it together or answer the contradictions being pointed out to you.  Why are you even here?

[generousgeorge]

smart.... doesn't look smart......    sounds pretty smart to me and with the ability to give a reasoned argument..... which so far you have not done very well at Mark .....probably because god didit and "MAGIC" are all you need..... course that is easier   :shrug

I swear.....these are all the same poster with different names...... baaaa baaaa baaaa

[Ashe]

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

And again, assuming this is true, it still ties back to God. There is no choice, no serpent, no evil, no "badness" without God having decided it should be so.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Prudent? Prudent would be ensuring that there were no evil in the first place - even if there was freewill. He's God; anything is possible with God. So if God anticipated the need of a savior, he's anticipating that most of his own creation is going to suffer for eternity. That means he knows! He knows and I suppose that's what he wants!

Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid? 

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

If God is omniscient, then yes, God must know who is going to hell.

The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Created and sanctioned by who? God.

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

Then you're not saying you're looking for truth instead of facts. You're saying you're looking for truth without proof.

The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons, including over religions that are not yours. If that's impressive, the Heavens Gate cult must be simply awe-inspiring. Just because somebody believes something to the point of willingness to die does not make that idea true. It just means that person really, really believed it.

[Timtheskeptic]

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Prudent? What are you talking about?

“Oh I know what will happen, so when it does, I’ll sacrifice myself to myself to appease myself in order to forgive you of your sins.”

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

I don’t quite follow. So God can’t tell what choice someone will make but knows they’re doomed to hell anyway? That clearly makes no sense.

When mom told you not to eat the cookie, did she tell you it would cause you to die? Mom telling you not to eat hemlock is probably a better comparison. The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Ok, when parents warn you of danger, it’s usually because they don’t want you to get hurt. But unfortunately for Adam and Eve, they were punished for simply eating from the tree of knowledge with pain and suffering. That does not sound like your God cares at all about you, he seem to want you to take the fall so that he can torture you. That sounds very evil to me. If my mother tells me not to touch the hot stove and I did as a child, then mother would say, “I did say you shouldn’t. Here, put your hand in the cold water, it’ll heal up.” The God instead went, “OH MY GOD!! I’m gonna kill you!!”

I didn't say truth was void of fact, but it doesn't require scientific proof to arrive at an understanding of truth.

So basically, you just want to believe no matter what. I really feel sorry for you.

I can't prove my kids love me. I can discern from their actions and words how they may feel about me. If they are consistent in their actions/words, I may come to accept as truth that they love me. This 'truth' cannot be proven by me or them. But, that doesn't negate the possibility that it is actually truth.

A hug, a kiss, telling you that they love you, wanting to spend time with you, smiling up at you, wanting to be close to you, telling people how wonderful you are, are proofs of love. Sorry, you failed. If you can’t tell if your kids love you, then you failed as a parent.

Basically, it sounds like to me you’ll just assume things without knowing what may be true or not.

“Oh I think they love me.”
“I hate you!”
“Oh I think they hate me.”
“You’re the best.”

Anybody can put words on paper. Writing isn't the miracle. I don't worhship your pink bunny because I haven't read his book yet. Can you provide a link? Does he claim to love me? Is he willing to give his life for me? Does he have a message that has been documented for thousands of years? The fact the Bible is words on paper isn't that impressive. The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Ok, I basically died a little inside. Mark, you clearly don’t get it! You don’t worship my pink bunny because you hadn’t read the book yet? That is just plain sad of you. Are you saying that you would actually believe what is written?

Just because people killed one another for their religious beliefs doesn’t mean it’s true!  People killed for their belief in their Hindu gods, what about them? What about the people who worships the Greek Gods or Allah? What about those who kills for their Egyptian Gods? You Bible isn’t the only one that had people convinced in their religious beliefs, people of other faiths had too. This doesn’t make your Bible true or their religion true, it just proves how dangerous the human mind is; willing to believe anything and murder anyone who doesn’t agree.

And, I believe them. None of you have to believe them. I call that a choice.

It’s not a choice when someone’s religious belief says, “You have a choice, but I’m going to torture you forever if you don’t do things my way.”

[markinark]

The concepts of Satan, the serpent, and other fallen angels is indicative of choice being available prior to the 'foundation of the world'. For choice to be present in the Garden, the serpent would have to be allowed to be there.

And again, assuming this is true, it still ties back to God. There is no choice, no serpent, no evil, no "badness" without God having decided it should be so.

Freewill necessitates a choice. If God is the good choice, 'badness' is the alternative.

The idea that an all knowing God would anticipate the need for a Savior given a freewill universe only seem prudent.

Prudent? Prudent would be ensuring that there were no evil in the first place - even if there was freewill. He's God; anything is possible with God. So if God anticipated the need of a savior, he's anticipating that most of his own creation is going to suffer for eternity. That means he knows! He knows and I suppose that's what he wants!

No evil in the first place. I don't have a book on how Satan 'fell from Grace', but i'm assuming is was a choice.

Let's say I'm building a small motorcycle for my kid. Just as I'm putting the finishing touches on it, I realize I've made a mistake with the wiring. I realize that the motorcycle is going to catch fire and explode given enough use. There's no doubt it's going to happen. Tell me, is the "prudent" thing for me to do to add a special sprinkler feature to put out the inevitable fire? Or is it prudent to rewire the damned thing before even giving it to my kid?

Making everything perfect negates the choice. If everything is perfect, there is no freewill. For a loving, mutual relationship, there had to be freewill.

This preemptive strike does not bind any one person to a choice. To have prior knowledge of mankind choosing evil or having the potential to choose evil is different than knowing 'timtheskeptic' is going to hell.

If God is omniscient, then yes, God must know who is going to hell.

No, God knew some would go to hell. And, he's trying like hell to keep it from happening. And those who think like you are fighting to insure it does.

The resulting death (hell) is a natural consequence not demonic torture. Evidently, there are natural/unavoidable consequences in Heaven.

Then you're not saying you're looking for truth instead of facts. You're saying you're looking for truth without proof.

It is a FAITH based religion. If God were to appear to you today, what choice would you have then?

The fact those words have caused men to go to their death defending the story the words are telling is impressive.

Impressive? Hundreds of thousands - if not millions - of people have gone to their deaths in history for absurd reasons

...made by absurd people, not God.

Just because somebody believes something to the point of willingness to die does not make that idea true. It just means that person really, really believed it.

Exactly. And, they were closer to the situation than you.

[Alzael]

My opinion:

God is the creator of the known universe
God is eternal. As such, physical death (of man) is not the end for God.
As the creator, God is omniscient and omnipotent.

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

God could very easily have made us without the capacity to commit acts of evil. Not having the ability to commit an act only violates the concept of free will if there is nothing that can't do. For example, I can't suddenly choose to teleport over to the movie theatre in time to catch the next show. I can't choose to create an army of beautiful young women to serve my every need out of thin air, no matter how much I want to. These things are beyond my capabilities, my inability to do them does not violate my free will. So why then did god create us with the ability to sin if it is something that he does not want us to do?

From this scenario, Man is in a world of pain, suffering and death of his own volition. The resulting death is of his own making. Out of His love for Man, God offers salvation by acceptance (choice) of Christ through Faith (not proof) as one's Lord and Savior. So before you whine about the 'sins of my fathers', understand you have a way to reverse this unfavorable outcome of an others actions. Similar to your Dad moving you to California from New York.  When California falls off into the ocean as a result of an Earthquake, you will perish along with dear old dad unless you choose to move back to New York. If this occurs before you are old enough to be on your own, your life sucks. In Goddom, He makes an exception and you're good to go. This ties into the the 'God is merciful' category.

Or god could, you know, just not punish us for behaving the way he made us. And besides, if god really wanted to help us avoid this fate, why rely on faith? He could simply outright tell us and prove to us the truth and then let us make our choice. Instead he asks us to make a blind choice with no reliable information with which to decide the right course. Then if we don't make the right choices we get punished to an eternity of torture with no hope of ever getting out. You're right, clearly god is an infinitely loving being. I assume you follow his example in how you love your own children then?

The Bible is not a text book. It wasn't written to convey the nuts and bolts of creation. It was written to convey the Truth of our origins and a way for us to return to where God wants us to be.

The Bible is chock full of parables. Teachings/thoughts expressed through NON-FACTUAL allegory. Teachings meant to convey Truth, but not necessarily fact.

So in order to convey Truth, god decided to write the most vague and ambigious, badly written piece of literatue ever created? Then made it full of parables and allegory, which by their very nature are open to individual interpretation. Left no method by which to distinguish the allegories from the literal words other than individual interpretation, and left it to be constantly remade and rewritten by the hands of the same imperfect, bumbling screwheads that messed up creation in the first place.

........and just to be clear, you're saying that this is how god tries to teach us Truth?

........Do I even have to make fun of this?

I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

First off, the bolded part is just stupid. If there are no facts, then there is no way to distinguish Truth from falsity. Secondly if you look for Truth with preconceptions you will never find it. All you'll find is what you already have now, a bunch of answers handed to you by someone else. If there is any truth to be had you'll never find it without freeing your mind as opposed to chaining it. There is no Truth, in the bible, you demonstrate that you don't even know what you're talking about, Truth is not to be found in blind obedience to the words of another. It is to be found through yourself and on your own terms. If you don't at least understand that then you understand nothing.

[velkyn]

When God created Mankind, He did so out of Love. He created an idyllic environment for Mankind and gave (guaranteed) Mankind freewill (choice) to facilitate a 'relationship' of Love. The involvement of freewill necessitates an alternate choice (Good/Evil).

Mankind chose evil against the advice/admonition of God. This caused the separation of Man from God. Expulsion from the 'Garden' into a world of death created by God as a necessity of God's promise of freewill.

So you think that it's free will that people are damned for the actions of other people?  Mankind did not "chose" anything.  Two mythical figures did and if one assumes them real, then they were just two humans, nothing special and not able to represent all of humanity for all time. 

I search for eternal truth, not facts. I want to believe something bigger than myself exists and gives a shit. It doesn't cost me a thing to believe in God. It doesn't deprive me of anything of real value. Adherence to the 'truths' of the Bible helps me to be compassionate to my fellow man. And yes, you can live your life very much like this without God. You can be kind, compassionate and loving toward your fellow man. However, if God is God, you will be miming the words, but missing the big picture. How will God deal with that? I have no idea. But if you are truly a loving, compassionate, kind and thoughtful being, why would you exclude the possibility that the Bible is right?

gah, Pascal's wager again.  Yes, it does cost you to believe in imaginary things.  Do you tithe? Then it costs you resources? Do you go to church? Then it costs you time.  And yes, these things are of real value, if you could be doing something worthwhile with them, rather than suck up to a imaginary being that does nothing. 

I am always amused that you and people like you need a magic book to be decent people.  Funny how I don't need it at all.  I guess, if you would be ravening maniacs without your cosmic pacifier, then by all means believe in your bogey man.  Since I am a compassionate, kind, thoughtful being, I reject your myths since they also include where God is all about being cruel, stupid, ignorant, genocidal, etc.  You are just cherry picking and creating a god of your own.