Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..

[Gimpy]

Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.

Free will is impossible with an all-knowing god-being.

In fact, even in the myth that is the story of Adam and Eve the bible-god knew that adam and eve were going to do what they did. After all, he is all knowing.

So the bible-god punishes every other creature allegedly born of adam and eve's DNA because they simply did what he knew they were going to do.

It's such a circular logic that it's indefensible.

People die. Animals die. Plants die. Animals and plants didn't "offend" the bible-god's sensibilities at all, yet, living things that they are, they die too.

The fact is that there is no second tier.

This is it. What life we have here is all there is.

We can make of it what we want. Being creatures borne of instinct, for the most part, we want to continue the existence of the species and many of our actions move us in that direction.

God-beings have nothing to do with it.

[Agamemnon]

If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.

That's right-- The deal is you either do what God says or he's going to kick your ass. But you have the "free will" to choose between getting your ass kicked or being a slave to god. Not much of a choice, really, but I guess God isn't beyond a little extortion as long as he gets his way.

...Or something like that.

[markinark]

"There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you."

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.

"C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.

"How about between an ape and man? We share an ancestor, and there are numerous fossil records for that. There is even one way back for bears and humans (most all land mammals)."

According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma. I don't doubt they have common DNA. But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer. Or, a single happen stance mixing of amino acids and proteins which then evolved, through natural survival of the fittest selection, into all life as we know it. Take your pick.

[Gimpy]

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.

No, assuming one believes the myths and legends in the collection of fairy tales that you call the bible, it is the "death" bible-god CREATED for man . . . not "predicted." Silly Mark. If bible-god is all-knowing then it not only knows what adam/eve were going to do, it also knew that it would punish with "death" to begin with.

In other words, bible-god rigged the game

Do you have kids?

Yes. And grand kids. And I don't torture them when they don't bow down to me or when they call me bad names.

Biblegod ordered death to anyone who used his name in vain. Nice loving parent, no?

[Timtheskeptic]

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.

Oh, how do you know that it was death that a God predict? Did you ask him? Surely, if he’s all knowing, then he would know what is already going to happen, not just death.

Do you have kids?

No, and I don’t plan on having any kids. If you were referring that if I have children who are gay, atheist, Hindu or whatever would I accept them, then the anwer is yes. I don’t think that if a God is all-loving he would torture his children for using free will that they have or for being gay or for choosing to believe whatever they want to believe. Tell me, would you kill your children for their homosexuality or for thinking for themselves?

“You can do whatever you want my son, you can even be whoever you want. But if you do, I will make your life a living hell. It’s your choice and I love you very much, but I will burn you if you don’t do things my way.”

[Gimpy]

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.

[Dante]

An all-loving god would not create people he omni-knows are going to suffer eternally. Only an omni-malevolent entity would pimp out His whores to worship His selfish ass in exchange for not being tortured forever.

[markinark]

The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Mankind continues to reproduce with full knowledge the world is full of pain, suffering and death. I don't suppose God's reasons for creating us with the potential to suffer is any different than bearing children into a world full of murder, rape, natural disaster or any other peril.

We do it out of love for each other and a desire to love our creation. But, each child has the potential (free will) to 'eff it up.

[markinark]

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.

Yea, but I'm not. So you are just being paranoid and avoiding the topic.

[velkyn]

Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  

[nogodsforme]

This markinark (catinhat? hoponpop?) is as slippery as they come. God is in charge, so he gets the credit whenever something good happens. Humans are in charge, so they get the blame whenever something bad happens. Which is it? Who is running this show?

Who is to blame for the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who is to blame for a baby born without a brain who suffers and dies a horrible death? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who gets the credit if I win the lottery? Loving god, right? Of course.
Who gets the blame if I am shot to death on my way to cash in the winning ticket? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Whatever. :shrug

[Dante]

The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Your sky-pimp is the one doing the instructing, as well as the punishing. It's an either-or situation. Either you whore yourself, or be bitch-slapped for all eternity.

[markinark]

Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  

Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

[markinark]

This markinark (catinhat? hoponpop?) is as slippery as they come. God is in charge, so he gets the credit whenever something good happens. Humans are in charge, so they get the blame whenever something bad happens. Which is it? Who is running this show?

Who is to blame for the earthquake in Haiti and the floods in Pakistan? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who is to blame for a baby born without a brain who suffers and dies a horrible death? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Who gets the credit if I win the lottery? Loving god, right? Of course.
Who gets the blame if I am shot to death on my way to cash in the winning ticket? Loving god, right? Of course not.

Whatever. :shrug

Trite. I think the BIG picture covers stuff after the little stuff.

If you can see, do you credit the light? If you can't, would you credit the dark? Could be, it is just the way it is.

[Asmoday]

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.

You don't seem to grasp what omniscience means.

If there's an omniscient entity it already knows what I am going to do long in advance. The problem is, that I can do nothing else, otherwise said entity would not be omniscient. It knows with absolute certainty, which in turn locks all the events and happenings it knows about. Now even though I know nothing about this, my actions are still locked. No matter if I feel like having free will, the outcome of all my actions is already fixed. My decisions and my opinions on things are fixed.

It gets worse if said entity is not only omniscient but also the creator of everything, which is like Christians attribute their god; omniscient and the creator of everything. But an omniscient creator not only knows what is going to happen, an omniscient creator made the world in such a way that the things it knows are going to happen.

As an example this creator would know that little Harry will not believe in him which in turn leads to little Harry's eternal damnation. But this creator would still create a world in which little Harry will not believe in him because he knows it's going to be that way, which means the creator not only has everything scripted in his mind, he creates a world in which said script will actually happen without any way to break out of it.

If there is an omniscient creator god (which you say God is) then there is no free will. We only have the illusion of free will.


Oh, and if he's OK with it, that means said god created a version of the world knowing it would mean endless torture for uncounted billions of his "beloved" children, but he's perfectly OK with it despite having the power tocreate the world differently.

According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma.

Which is already wrong because despite being solid creatures we are quite watery. The beginning of all life was in the water.

But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.

In this case you'll have to ask yourself what kind of shitty designer that would have been, since there are a lot of design flaws present, which would point to a completely incompetent designer if you insist there was one.

[Gimpy]

The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Sorry. Wrong answer.

Of the millions upon millions and billions actually that bible god has killed, there are millions upon millions, if not billions, who even know bible-god has a story or myth where it is the star.

Epic fail.

[Gimpy]

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

No. Because if you are a sock, you are being duplicitous.

I, for one, don't care for that kind of sneakiness.

Yea, but I'm not. So you are just being paranoid and avoiding the topic.

Wrong, I am responding to you, even though I know you are lying.

[Whateverman]

"There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you."

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it?

You need to think of it differently, imho.  It's not that God's omniscience forces us to act (though you could make that argument).

Instead, "free will" is often raised by theists when they're questioned about divine punishment.  We 'choose' to sin, rather than adhering to God's rules - and we're punished for this choice.  If God's omniscient, he knows long before we're born that we're going to be worthy of punishment, and thus, we really can't choose anything.  We can do nothing other than the thing we're destined to do - and this makes 'punishment' for things we can't change seem less like justice and more like malice.

Simply put, if God knows I'm going to sin, I have no power to choose to NOT sin.

That is what people refer to when they describe His omniscience as destroying our free will.  

[Agamemnon]

The difference is my perspective is not God telling me to live one way or he'll kick my ass.

It's God telling me if I live a certain way, my ass is gonna get kicked.

Uh... Actually, there's no difference between those things. Nothing worth mentioning, anyway.

The same instruction can be viewed as punitive or instructive. The difference is you, not God.

Who cares if you're going to get your ass kicked for not following it?

I don't suppose God's reasons for creating us with the potential to suffer is any different than bearing children into a world full of murder, rape, natural disaster or any other peril.

lol, the difference is that an omnipotent god doesn't HAVE to make people who don't follow his instructions suffer. Isn't he the most powerful thing ever? Why not make it so that six million children don't die of starvation every year. You know, I think that is something like one child dying of starvation every 5 seconds?

We do it out of love for each other and a desire to love our creation. But, each child has the potential (free will) to 'eff it up.

Free will is a bogus explanation. It isn't free will if god is going to kick your ass for not getting things done the way he wants them done.

If someone held a gun to your head an told you your choice is to give up all your money or die, would you say you have the "free will" to choose? When the cops came would you refuse to prosecute because you were given free will to choose? I doubt it.

[Gimpy]

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

Again, UniversityPastor, there is no such being, so there will be no such "hell."

[markinark]

How does God knowing it dictate you actually doing it? Is this a specific knowledge or a general outcome knowledge? And if He knows the outcome, He must be ok with it.

You don't seem to grasp what omniscience means.

Yeah, it's a word defined by man which I suspect doesn't quite cover God. You are still free to choose.

Oh, and if he's OK with it, that means said god created a version of the world knowing it would mean endless torture for uncounted billions of his "beloved" children, but he's perfectly OK with it despite having the power tocreate the world differently.

Yet, we continue to bring children into this world everyday. Not that we created it, but we are fully aware of it. I believe God created us in love knowing full well the potential for pain and suffering. I'm confident it will be worth it.

According to the Bible, all land animals were made from the earth/dirt/firma.

Which is already wrong because despite being solid creatures we are quite watery. The beginning of all life was in the water.

Water=universal ingredient. Earth=different. Some stuff from water; some stuff from water+earth.  

But, I believe DNA is God's building block. To me, the commonality supports the idea of a common designer.

In this case you'll have to ask yourself what kind of shitty designer that would have been, since there are a lot of design flaws present, which would point to a completely incompetent designer if you insist there was one.

Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

[modbreak]Fixed quoting[/modbreak]

[velkyn]

Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  

Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

No, you didn't say that God interfered. I did. You may wish to read my posts more closely. Your bible claims he has again and again. How does that work with free will, when an omnipotent being interferes with the beings that supposedly have free will?  God has supposedly interfered in human events, battles, etc.  When he does, that eliminates the free will of those who would oppose him.  

So, you don't beleive in original sin?  Interesting since so many Christians do.  How do you know your version of Christianity is the "right" one?  

You seem to wish to claim that God cannot be around evil. But again your bible says that this isn't true.  In fact your god created evil and hangs around with beings that are evil.  How can that be if what you claim is true?  Why does your God need evil to accomplish what it wants to have happen?  

I'll have to say, I don't think you are sock puppet.  There are many of you in the world.  It's a faint hope that we would have one that is just trying to reappear on the forums without addressing abandoned threads.

EDIT: you also seem to be unaware of how the universe is made up if you want ot claim that anything on earth or earth itself is in anyway "different" from any "universal ingredient". 

[Gimpy]

Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

[Asmoday]

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

Ooh, I nearly missed that gem.

Tell me if God is pure good, then how come

a) he's not only the creator of evil  
(2 Kings 6:33, Isaiah 45:7, Amos 3:6)

b) but he also has these constant urges to do evil, which he needs to repent for all the time?
(Exodus 32:14, 2 Samuel 24:16, 1 Chronicles 21:15, Jeremaih 18:8, Jeremaih 26:3, Jeremiah 26:13, Jeremiah 26:19, Jeremaih 42:10, Amos 7:3, 6, Jonah 3:10)

[lotanddaughters]

Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

The design mechanism is solid, but eventually fucked up the environment.

I see. The God of the Bible is real. Amen.

[markinark]

Mark, please do explain on how free will works with God's interference and saying that there are humans intentionally made to be damned?  How does free will work with damning people for others actions if you believe in original sin?  

Didn't say God interfered.

Your fate based on your choices not adam/eve's. You are in this world because of their choices. But, you make the same choices everyday. You make decisions which have consequences. Bad decisions are bad because they cause someone pain/suffering. Good choices are for the benefit of others before yourself or, at worst, neutral.

If God is pure good, then bad choices (sins) separate you from Him. At the end of time, how far away you are will determine your eternity. Realizing God is God will be your hell.

No, you didn't say that God interfered. I did. You may wish to read my posts more closely. Your bible claims he has again and again. How does that work with free will, when an omnipotent being interferes with the beings that supposedly have free will?  God has supposedly interfered in human events, battles, etc.  When he does, that eliminates the free will of those who would oppose him.  

So, you don't beleive in original sin?  Interesting since so many Christians do.  How do you know your version of Christianity is the "right" one?  

You seem to wish to claim that God cannot be around evil. But again your bible says that this isn't true.  In fact your god created evil and hangs around with beings that are evil.  How can that be if what you claim is true?  Why does your God need evil to accomplish what it wants to have happen?  

I'll have to say, I don't think you are sock puppet.  There are many of you in the world.  It's a faint hope that we would have one that is just trying to reappear on the forums without addressing abandoned threads.

EDIT: you also seem to be unaware of how the universe is made up if you want ot claim that anything on earth or earth itself is in anyway "different" from any "universal ingredient". 

No, those in battle against the Jews had made their choices to be in battle against the Jews.
Yes, I believe in the original sin and everyone since then.
God 'hangs' around with evil or is aware of evil and can communicate with it?

Water, then water and dirt. They aren't mutually exclusive, just more.

[markinark]

Man 'effed up the environment. The design mechanism is solid.

Which part of the environment 'effing up results in major earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides?

Which part of earthquakes, tsunamis, and mudslides altered your DNA?

[Dante]

Which part of fucking up left us with a vestigial tail and appendix?

[pingnak]

I doubt all your stupid gods, and other gods you never even heard of.