Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 21688 times)

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Offline markinark

My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Offline Gimpy

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Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway

But you wouldn't kill them yourself just because they did OR if they were rude to you.

B) Free will, what a bitch.

Unfortunately, if a god-being is "all knowing" then "free will" is pointless. Because if you as the god-being already know what the person will do, then what is the point? You knew that person would do and behave like that before that person was even born (theoretically) so you simply set in place a person who was going to do what he was going to do regardless of anything else.

C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.

Oh, that's a new one. "Intra-species" evolution.


ANd I would respectfully request that the mods confirm this is not a sock of snoopingaround.
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Offline Gimpy

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My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.


Well, snark aside, technically you are correct that is not god-being's fault since there is no god-being to begin with.

But it really isn't man's "fault" either, except where we can make a difference and we don't.



A
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Online Azdgari

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My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Where was he blaming it on a god?  Why would he blame it on something he doesn't believe exists?
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Offline Emily

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My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

6 million children dying a year is certainly no loving, knowing, intelligence quality to have on a resume. If biblegod does exist, to quote George Carlin, "he's at least incompetent and maybe doesn't give a fuck."
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Offline velkyn

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Then you are not looking very deep.
one more Christian who thinks that they know what God "really meant".  Sorry, Mark, but all Christians claim this.

Let me address your answer to B.  You want to invoke free will, like many Christians do. However, you do forget that your god has shown no interest in free will, per your own bible.  This has become a modern excuse used to ignore your god's evident impotence or non-existence. 

and your answer to C, which is the usual ignorant creationist claim.  It is always so amusing to see Christians pick and choose what science to accept. 
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Offline Agamemnon

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My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Exactly! I mean God is the one who set up this idiotic system that would allow that kind of horror and pain and suffering and misery. And what's worse is that we're only talking about the kids that die from starvation!

How about the stats for all the children that die of cancer, in car wrecks, earthquakes, backyard swimming pools, river floods, blizzards... The list goes on and on.

That's a LOT of bad things. And I don't see how man could be faulted for children dying in an earthquake.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline gonegolfing

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@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]


huh  :shrug .....what quoting was removed ?
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Offline Operator_A25

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Your post was probably quoted in toto.
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Offline Emily

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Your post was probably quoted in toto.

What does Mark wearing ballerina clothing have to do with the discussion.  :D

Sorry, lame joke A25.
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Offline markinark


Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway

But you wouldn't kill them yourself just because they did OR if they were rude to you.

B) Free will, what a bitch.

Unfortunately, if a god-being is "all knowing" then "free will" is pointless. Because if you as the god-being already know what the person will do, then what is the point? You knew that person would do and behave like that before that person was even born (theoretically) so you simply set in place a person who was going to do what he was going to do regardless of anything else.

C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.

Oh, that's a new one. "Intra-species" evolution.


ANd I would respectfully request that the mods confirm this is not a sock of snoopingaround.

A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.

Offline Operator_A25

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Your post was probably quoted in toto.

What does Mark wearing ballerina clothing have to do with the discussion.  :D

Sorry, lame joke A25.

Hahah, that would be "in tutu," Emily!
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Offline markinark

My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.

Yeah, that's on God. I mean surely Man isn't at fault.

Exactly! I mean God is the one who set up this idiotic system that would allow that kind of horror and pain and suffering and misery. And what's worse is that we're only talking about the kids that die from starvation!

How about the stats for all the children that die of cancer, in car wrecks, earthquakes, backyard swimming pools, river floods, blizzards... The list goes on and on.

That's a LOT of bad things. And I don't see how man could be faulted for children dying in an earthquake.

Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.



Offline lotanddaughters

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markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline Operator_011

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huh  :shrug .....what quoting was removed ?

Everything you quoted and replied to in this post, that Markinark needlessly reposted to add a one-liner.


Eleven.
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Offline markinark

markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 01:13:46 PM by markinark »

Offline Grimm

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A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
UNLESS:
 - You knew your son was prone to drunk driving.
 - You knew he'd been drinking.
 - And when he was drunk, heading out the door, you handed him the keys to the car instead of saying no.

God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent - it says so right there on the label!  Don't you think he'd be able to politely inform your son that he's had enough and he's not going anywhere until he sleeps it off?

Honestly.  Is your god so weak?
Quote
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.

In what way?  The free will to choose between fawning worship and eternal death?  "Love me or I will set you afire?"  Honestly.  What sort of entity offers only the dichotomy of 'cake or death'?  My way or the highway!  DIE INFIDEL!

No, thank you.  Besides, your God doesn't give anyone free will - and if you assume he didn't create Adam, Eve, and the Serpent, no matter how metaphorical it all is, without knowing what would come of all of that, and without pointing out to people that had no conception of right and wrong (after all, wasn't the tree representative of that?) what 'wrong' is... well, y' know?  You're something of a fool.

Your god MADE the very evil you claim is man's fault, in full foreknowledge of what would come of it, by your own mythology.  Is he so powerless as to not have been able to make it another way?

Quote
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Last_universal_ancestor - look at the cladogram to the right.

Bluntly, your lack of knowledge of genetics, evolutionary theory, and current biological understanding does not combine with your incredulity to make anything remotely resembling a real point.  If you'd like to know when apes separated from bears, I'd suggest reading up on it.  You might just be astounded.

For instance, did you know that we can pinpoint the moment when 'humanity' became chromosomally distinct?  True story!  We know when your greatgreatgreat(adinfinitum)grandfather became a new sort of primate!

But.  Until you understand that you don't even have the basis from which to understand the data, there's almost no point, wouldn't you say?
"But to us, there is but one god, plus or minus one."  - 1 Corinthians 8:6+/-2

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Offline velkyn

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Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.

here we go with the Christian who attempts to claim that atheists don't want God around since we all want to be ravening maniacs. Too bad that is a pathetic strawman argument.

Per your own bible, Mark, God is indeed "doing" everything to us.  Your god supposed set in motion the entire thing, it established the game and the rules. Your god intended the "train wreck".  If not, your god ceases to be the entity that the bible claims it is.  Which would you prefer? A god not as your holy book claims or to admit that your god is responsible for everything?  Christians like both, from what we've seen here, depending on the corner they paint themselves into.  

As I have stated, there is nothing about free will in your book.  There can't be with a god that interferes constantly, that is omniscient *and* is blatantly stated as making some people only for damnation.  
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Offline Asmoday

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A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.
Have you read your bible? Doesn't seem so.

In the bible God actively kills humans, who he supposedly "loves like a father would love his children." Not to mention all the times he orders his followers to commit genocide, rape and enslave others.

Quote
B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
Another Christian who does not understand what it means if there's an omniscient creator around. If the creator is omniscient, then the creatures created have no free will. The only thing such creatures have is the illusion of having free will.


Quote
C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.
I think you should read a book like "Evolution for Dummies." If you truly think your question has any relation to the actual theory of evolution, you have a lot of learning to do.

Quote
Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday.
Funny thing is, that I was never asked if I wanted to take a bite of some knowledge-fruit.

Tell me, if I come to your house to arrest you and your family for a crime of which I say your ancestor committed during the dark ages, would you object?

If your answer is Yes, then I must ask why you think punishing all humans for the actions of two humans can be considered just and good, if it's your god who's doing the punishing?
Absilio Mundus!

I can do no wrong. For I do not know what it is.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Shit happens, then you die. Starving children can be helped. Not so much the earthquake thing.

The idiotic system is free will. Man had a choice. And, each of us make it everyday. Biblically, God told man not to do it or he would die. Man did it, this world is full of pain, suffering and death. In this world, death is final. In God's eternal existance, death is not final. It is just transitional.

Also, the general perspective of atheists/agnostics/non-believers seems to me myopic in its assumption that 'God is doing' something to us. Myself, I believe God is trying to stop us from an inevitable train wreck. Like children, we just think He's out to spoil a good time.

                                                                 -and-

In other words, atheists, as logically uncompromising individuals, seem to have a problem with the implications of Job and Romans 9.


Same idiot, different name.

"Hate the idiot, not the name."  :D
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Offline Graybeard

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
1. Loving - Deut. 32:39: See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand.

2 Chron. 15:13: That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?
Doesn't seem loving to me...

All knowing: Ge:3:9: And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? Why didn't He know?

Intelligent God or gods?: 1Ki:7:23: And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about. Pi does not equal 3...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline snkiesch

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Calvinists say your wrong, Romans 9 says your wrong. So markinmark is another of the true christians who's god's ways are above ours that we can not understand but markinmark does.
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Offline Emily

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paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.
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Offline Timtheskeptic

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.

If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

If the God is all knowing, then why would he punish what he already knew was going to happen? "I knew this child is going to be an atheist, but i'm going to torment him for all eternity in hell." "I knew that this young girl will become a lesbian, but i will burn her forever."

If the God is all powerful, then why hadn't he prevented the devil from making us sin?

Me:What are you looking at Eminem?
Brother: Nothing, Harry Potter.

I love to read books, just not your Bible. i support gay rights and women's rights. Why? Because i'm tired of the hate, stupidity, and your desire to control us all and make up lies.

Offline markinark


If there is an all-loving God, then what is loving about diseases, murders,child molestation, wars, famine, poverty, and prejudice? And don't tell me that it's because of sin. Give me a credible detail as to why your God would do this.

It's not. It is the death God predicted if man went his own way.


Quote from: Timtheskeptic
If the God is all knowing, then why would he punish what he already knew was going to happen? "I knew this child is going to be an atheist, but i'm going to torment him for all eternity in hell." "I knew that this young girl will become a lesbian, but i will burn her forever."


Do you have kids?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:29:05 PM by markinark »

Offline Gimpy

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A) If my son chooses to get drunk and drives off a cliff, it isn't me who is killing him. It is his own free will despite all my efforts.

Well, SnoopingAround, we're not talking about something as passive as that. We're talking active actions here, by your supposedly "loving" god-being.

Your "loving" god-being murders, maims, and orders the murder, maiming and raping, of completely innocent people and children.

B) Pointless for God, not pointless for you.
It's pointless for both, and you know that, hence the snarky meaningless comment.

There can be no free will if you are claiming an all-knowing god-being. They are mutually exclusive. Because if the god-being knows how you will react, and knows everything that you will do under all circumstances, then you have no free will. It's all already been set for you.

C) Show me the scientific (fossil) connection between an ape and a bear.


How about between an ape and man? We share an ancestor, and there are numerous fossil records for that. There is even one way back for bears and humans (most all land mammals).

Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline markinark

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's being cautious, not paranoid. If you were the sock of another user then it's pointless talking to you.

Just try not looking at who made the post and respond to the expressed thought.

Offline Gimpy

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markinark = SnoopingAround = UniversityPastor?


If someone has access to multiple IP addresses, even the mods can't prove whether or not it's the same person. :shrug

paranoid conspiracy theorist? And even if I was, how does that change the discussion?

It's neither paranoid or a conspiracy.

But it changes the discussion because talking to liars is not only not fun, but it's counter productive, especially when the liar is a Liar For ChristTM.


Edited to fix a word.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:36:47 PM by Gimpy »
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Offline gonegolfing

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@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]


Quote
huh   .....what quoting was removed ?

Everything you quoted and replied to in this post, that Markinark needlessly reposted to add a one-liner.


Eleven.


Markinark I'm not quite sure what your comment is referring to about my post. Care to elaborate a little more ?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 02:38:02 PM by gonegolfing »
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