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Offline SnoopingAround

Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.

Online Emily

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Seriously????

The only evidence I'd accept of (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God would be that god creating another world right before my eyes as said in that god's holy book.

In what way is saying "no evidence" vague? There is either evidence for god or there isn't.
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Offline penfold

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

I suppose one answer is that my rationality will not allow me to adopt a belief in something's existence without evidence for it. I understand if you may think that is a narrow response, but I assure you it is authentic.

It was interesting that the first attribute of God you listed was 'Loving'. My experience of atheism has been tough at times. I have sometimes been afflicted by a profound void of being: 'nausea' Sartre calls it. What I have found is that compassion, both towards myself and others, has really helped me get through that. There is no need for a God to make me behave in a loving manner. Actions of love, in themselves, are justification alone.

So a second answer to your question would be: I don't need God. I'm free.

« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 08:30:25 PM by penfold »
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Offline Gimpy

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.


Requiring "evidence" isn't vague, and your calling it so doesn't make it so, any more than your saying a "loving" "all knowing" "intelligent" god-being exists with your complete lack of same evidence.

You can't make up the rules as you go along and redefine words because you don't like that they will be used against you.

"evidence" is not "vague" and by definition requires specificity.

"Believing" in things that have no evidence whatsoever as being real is itself very vague.

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Offline blahsphemer

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?
Why do you have to speak for them, why aren't they just speaking for them self's if they want to communicate with us?
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Offline TopolX

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Well I suppose it would be the paradox in having a god and having a flaw such as being loving rather than perfectly neutral that would stop me believing in such a being.

An all knowing god would not be something which is particularly out of the way assuming that both a and c don't apply. An all knowing but impersonal and unmotivated god (something like a giant supernatural hard drive) could be theorectically possible but in that case it would not really be a supreme being merely a curiousity.

An intelligent god is almost as bad as a loving god. A god which is intelligent would have some plan however the chaotic nature of existence shows that there is no plan in any way, shape or form and hence no god. The universe "runs" on probabilities and random occurances so an intelligent supreme being is impossible for me to believe in as it would have some sort of objective and intervene with chance but clearly nothing has. Ever.
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Offline voodoo child

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?


I do not know if its loving, I don't know if its all knowing, I don't know if there is a god.

If I told you about a magic tea pot that orbits the moon without being able to show it to you. would you believe it? 
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Offline wright

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague. Please give detailed, particular, evident reasons.  If you feel there’s no evidence, then what evidence do you expect to be present?

Serious answers please.

This is a sincere question.

Thank you ever so much.

Edit: removed a kneejerk response...

Loving? I don't see much love or all knowing or intelligence in a god who creates a world with smallpox, guinea worms and Pol Pot.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:12:36 PM by wright »
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Offline bgb

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The christian god according to the bible is neither loving, knowing and most of all intelligent.
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline IAmFirst

^^ This. Loving?? Fully agreed bgb.

He commanded armies to kill for him. Joshua and his army killed innocent men, women and children for the LORD.

All knowing?? Why does he ask so many questions to only two intelligent creatures HE created in the GofE?

The book of Job clearly shows what a gullible sort this Yahweh is.
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

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Offline Asmoday

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
a) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not loving. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

Looking at the world around us it is clear that there are no loving gods helping mankind.

b) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not all-knowing. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

For other hypothetical gods there simply is no evidence for their existence. There is no other explanation here.

c) Looking at the bible it is clear that the biblical God is not the sharpest tool in the shed, given that his plans fail on a regular basis. (Not to mention there's no evidence for him)

For other hypothetical gods there simply is no evidence for their existence. There is no other explanation here.
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Offline Operator_016

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Hi SnoopingAround,

A review of your posts shows a common motif: you are challenging us to disprove some poorly defined supernatural concept.  So far we have these threads started by you all within the past few hours:

>> Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

>> Is the [biblical] story of Jesus unique? Was Jesus unique? Why or what not?

>> Is the idea of ‘Salvation by Faith’ logical or moral?

>> What are the arguments against the Armageddon prophecy/belief?

>> Why aren't we in the Last Days?  Why is the prophecy unreliable or immoral or illogical or without evidence?

>> What evidence is there for Satan's (supposed) existence? What evidence suggests that Satan isn’t real? 


You claim to doubt that gods exist, yet you seem fixated on the Christian god Yahweh.  Are you aware that this forum's members are mostly non-believers for whom all these questions are simply fictional nonsense, akin to "Why can't Lord Voldemort die?"

Why don't you circle back and reply to some of the people who have done you the courtesy of answering your questions?  Some of the members think you are a troll.  Are you?
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Why do YOU doubt the existance of a (a) Cookie-based (B)Frog-like (C) Narcoleptic toaster tree?

Shot in the dark: Because it makes absolutely no sense and is logically absurd?

Hmmm....
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Offline dloubet

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Quote
Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Quite simply because nothing to date has convinced me of one. That's it. That's the truth. That's all there is to it.
Denis Loubet

Offline SnoopingAround

Hi SnoopingAround,

A review of your posts shows a common motif: you are challenging us to disprove some poorly defined supernatural concept.  So far we have these threads started by you all within the past few hours:

>> Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

>> Is the [biblical] story of Jesus unique? Was Jesus unique? Why or what not?

>> Is the idea of ‘Salvation by Faith’ logical or moral?

>> What are the arguments against the Armageddon prophecy/belief?

>> Why aren't we in the Last Days?  Why is the prophecy unreliable or immoral or illogical or without evidence?

>> What evidence is there for Satan's (supposed) existence? What evidence suggests that Satan isn’t real? 


You claim to doubt that gods exist, yet you seem fixated on the Christian god Yahweh.  Are you aware that this forum's members are mostly non-believers for whom all these questions are simply fictional nonsense, akin to "Why can't Lord Voldemort die?"

Why don't you circle back and reply to some of the people who have done you the courtesy of answering your questions?  Some of the members think you are a troll.  Are you?


Hello.

1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

2.  I have limited access to the Internet, thus I have to restrict how much I can use the forum from time to time.  Sometimes I may not be able to respond to comments to my questions right away.  Nonetheless, whenever I get a chance, I do read and consider all the comments and appreciate your help very much (well, the sincere answers, anyway).  Your answers are very important to me.

3.  While I serious doubt the existence of God of gods (or Satan or demons), I have come from a somewhat religious background, hence much of my understanding of the world has been explained from religious perspective.  I have very little awareness or understanding of secular views.  I am trying to understand.  Sometimes I question whether my doubts in the existence in God, gods, Satan, or demons, is the right outlook.  Right now, I feel I don’t have many explanations – from a scientific/logical/moral perspective – to explain religious beliefs.  I feel the need to settle these issues in my mind so that I can feel honest with myself and the world.  By considering your views, I feel this will enable me to gain more knowledge and to draw a broader picture and enable me to make a more sophisticated outlook on concepts such as gods, demons, faith, etc.  In other words, I am admitting that I lack some critical thinking skills and understanding of psychology and delusion (etc).  Most of my early years (the time that really shapes how we learn to reason) were shaped by narrow, absolutist religious perspectives.  The way I see life and understand is all I know.  I am hoping that you guys may enlighten me and help me see things from a broader view.  I don’t want to be narrow minded in my thinking anymore.  I want to be a considered human being.

Offline jetson

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Well, if you are indeed sincere, then rest easy with the knowledge that all gods are imaginary, human inventions.  People do not rise from the dead, donkeys and snakes simply do not talk, water cannot be turned into wine via magic, and humans cannot be conceived without both a sperm and an egg.  It really is that simple.  The entire premise of Christianity is based on a single book, written by ignorant and fearful human beings who had no idea how our world really works. 

If you can find anything outside of The Bible that substantiates any of the miraculous claims or stories, you might have something.  But until then, consider every bit of it as mythology, exactly like Zeus, Thor, and all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans.

Good luck!

Offline SnoopingAround

Well, if you are indeed sincere, then rest easy with the knowledge that all gods are imaginary, human inventions.  People do not rise from the dead, donkeys and snakes simply do not talk, water cannot be turned into wine via magic, and humans cannot be conceived without both a sperm and an egg.  It really is that simple.  The entire premise of Christianity is based on a single book, written by ignorant and fearful human beings who had no idea how our world really works. 

If you can find anything outside of The Bible that substantiates any of the miraculous claims or stories, you might have something.  But until then, consider every bit of it as mythology, exactly like Zeus, Thor, and all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans.

Good luck!

Hello.  Thanks for your reply.  I am very appreciative.  Can you please be more detailed, if you don't mind?  You are making lots of claims ("all of the other thousands of gods created by ignorant humans", "all gods are imaginary, human inventions", etc - how can you possibly know this?) without providing the evidence or reasons to support them. Religions do exactly the same as this, don't they?  I don't believe in God or gods or Satan, etc, yet I don't really have any reasons for my disbelief, other than the fact I have never experienced these things with my human senses/and because these charcaters don't seem convincing to me. I recognise that these views alone to not proof that these characters do not exist.  I want to be sure that my disbelief in God/Satan is founded on good reason and evidence. Telling me that "there's no evidence" or that "they are all myths" does not tell me anything other than you are not convinced.  I need actual examples backed by science/reason.  Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me.  It means a great deal.

Offline dloubet

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Dude, logic suggests that you withhold agreement with a proposition until the proposition is established.

You're already doing that.

You're done!

You said you want a logical reason for your disbelief, that is your logical reason.

The Burden of Proof is not on you.
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Offline snkiesch

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A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs
"The evangelists were inventors – not historians."


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Offline SnoopingAround

A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )

Offline Agamemnon

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My quick answer: 6 million children starving to death every year.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline bertatberts

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Quote from: snoopingaround
Please, if you don't mind and have the time, can you give me clear/testable factual and logical reasons to my question ("Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent.."). Thanks for helping me.  It means a great deal.
I doubt, because I have no good reason to believe one does.

Though I think you should firstly further define what God, and why! yours is the correct one, given there are 850+ gods, (this does not include the 3 million Hindu gods).
Then I shall try to elucidate more why I doubt, and further answer your questions.

Though I think you should be able to reason it out yourself whilst your trying defined why your is the correct one.
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Offline velkyn

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

Please don’t just say “no evidence” as these terms are too vague.
why is this "too vague"?  The fact is that there is NO evidence.  And no evidence indicates no BibleGod.  There is nothing that shows that the claims by Christians are real. No bible events, no miracles, nothing. 

BibleGod is defined as loving, omniscient and omnipotent.  Considering that even its own supposed book shows this not to be true, why believe in such garbage?  Christians consistently depower their god to excuse its evident impotence which is always hilarious or they decide that this supposedly unchanging being changes as they need to bolster their arguments. Suddenly their god doesn't go miracles anymore because of the oft-invoked "free will", but that certainly didn't seem to bother their god before.  It's just sad to see their pathetic arguments.
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Offline Gimpy

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Hello.

1.  My questions are sincere.  I am not a troll.

Please provide evidence that you are not.



2.  I have limited access to the Internet, thus I have to restrict how much I can use the forum from time to time.  Sometimes I may not be able to respond to comments to my questions right away.  Nonetheless, whenever I get a chance, I do read and consider all the comments and appreciate your help very much (well, the sincere answers, anyway).  Your answers are very important to me.

What makes this statement unbelievable (as in not able to be believed) is that you were "online" the entire time people were responding and then some. You were online for AT LEAST an hour past when  you made your last post. You DO realize that your activity can be tracked, don't you? I mean, you leave "concrete evidence" behind.

3.  While I serious doubt the existence of God of gods (or Satan or demons), I have come from a somewhat religious background, hence much of my understanding of the world has been explained from religious perspective.  I have very little awareness or understanding of secular views.  I am trying to understand.  Sometimes I question whether my doubts in the existence in God, gods, Satan, or demons, is the right outlook.  Right now, I feel I don’t have many explanations – from a scientific/logical/moral perspective – to explain religious beliefs.  I feel the need to settle these issues in my mind so that I can feel honest with myself and the world.  By considering your views, I feel this will enable me to gain more knowledge and to draw a broader picture and enable me to make a more sophisticated outlook on concepts such as gods, demons, faith, etc.  In other words, I am admitting that I lack some critical thinking skills and understanding of psychology and delusion (etc).  Most of my early years (the time that really shapes how we learn to reason) were shaped by narrow, absolutist religious perspectives.  The way I see life and understand is all I know.  I am hoping that you guys may enlighten me and help me see things from a broader view.  I don’t want to be narrow minded in my thinking anymore.  I want to be a considered human being.


Again, hogwash. Your syntax and lexicon betray you.

By that I mean, you can clearly articulate and communicate complex ideas that betray your claim of supposed lack of "critical thinking skills." And your use of the term "god of gods" in the same breath as your serious "doubt" of the same.

Also, this site is virtually bursting at the seams with thread after thread after thread that goes into tremendous detail and providing all sorts of examples of the "secular views."

Heck, just read up on all the posts by JeffPT, among many others, then come back and ask your questions.

You obviously can use The Google, and would get a much more detailed and thorough knowledge and understanding of the "secular views" by reading some very good and in-depth books and articles on the subject. And there are plenty out there.

But I think you know that. Why would you not read, on I don't know, Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion for one?

Heck there are even some very good videos on You Tube that can give you the top-line gist and provide you with the answers you claim to be seeking here.

But coming into this forum and posting the numerous questions, that actually start from a position of belief instead of from a position of doubtfulness is very -- curious.

If you are not a troll, then are you perhaps working on a school project?



Whichever, it would do you well to stop lying to us.
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Offline Whateverman

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?
Loving - If the Creator is "loving", this word is different from the one found in the dictionary.  If you put your child into preschool, and you see him start pounding on other kids, or if you see other kids start pounding on him, what would you do?  Would you intervene?  As a loving parent, yes you would.  If you had the power to help your children avoid death, you'd do that too.  If you had the power to help them understand the world around them and show them how to live the best lives possible, you'd spend quality time with them showing exactly what to do.

Would you kill your child for insulting you?  Would you destroy your house and the entire family if they stopped listening to your wishes?  Would you torture your kids for thinking the wrong things?

Almost certainly, no - you would not.  Not if you loved them.

The Christian deity is not loving, regardless of whether he exists or not.  {EDIT: the same holds true for almost every religious concept of God I've encountered.  None are 'loving' in the way that we typically use the word}


All Knowing - this trait raises problems for the deity in question.  Specifically, if He knows what He will do in the future, this means he can't be omnipotent; he can't do something different from what he has predicted he will do.  Omniscience also raises some concerns for our ability to have free will, let alone be punished or applauded for the actions we take.  If I am predestined to make certain choices, then there is nothing I can do to avoid that destiny.  Why punish me for something I can not possibly change?

For me, omniscience is troublesome when it's combined with other traits.  By itself, the idea is kinda silly, but otherwise not terribly objectionable.


Intelligent - this seems redundant (re. "all knowing"), so I'm going to assume you simply meant "exists".  As in why do I have a problem believing in the existence of a sentient Creator.  Speaking only for me, I don't have a problem with it.  My problems come from the kinds of things this Creator is attributed with.  By itself, I consider it possible that we human beings were put here by an intelligent force.  There doesn't seem to be much evidence for it, but hey, it's still a possibility.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 10:03:06 AM by Whateverman »
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Offline gonegolfing

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A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )

Look, you seem to be sincere. I hope so.

From your OP it would seem to me that your simply suffering from the side effects of child indoctrination.

You're an adult now. You can set yourself free from those side effects. There's absolutely nothing holding you back from doing so and don't be fooled any longer into thinking that there is.

There's a very good reason that we have the ability to doubt: To protect ourselves. Reason tells you to protect yourself from superstitions and delusions. This is why millions protect themselves from belief in the loving god hypothesis, as it is yet to be proved to be anything other than superstition and delusion.

Also, it's unrealistic to ask us to avoid the most blatant and powerful answer to your question. The total lack of perceivable, reliable, unambiguous, and definitive evidence for the existence of deities is in and of itself the most devastating attack on the claim. My opinion as to what the evidence should be is meaningless as to the fact that none of any kind exists. If it did exist, then the only logical and apropos approach would be for the deity to clearly and unmistakably present itself as the evidence needed to make its existence known.

Good luck   
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Offline bartly

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Q. Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent God or gods?

I suppose one answer is that my rationality will not allow me to adopt a belief in something's existence without evidence for it. I understand if you may think that is a narrow response, but I assure you it is authentic.

It was interesting that the first attribute of God you listed was 'Loving'. My experience of atheism has been tough at times. I have sometimes been afflicted by a profound void of being: 'nausea' Sartre calls it. What I have found is that compassion, both towards myself and others, has really helped me get through that. There is no need for a God to make me behave in a loving manner. Actions of love, in themselves, are justification alone.

So a second answer to your question would be: I don't need God. I'm free.





Yes ... compassion is the key - and thank ''God'' that we evolved the abilty for it; otherwise, with human intelligence and creativity, we'd be living in ''hell''.

Offline markinark

A) Pain and suffering, As a parent and grandparent I would do anything to prevent my children from suffering

B)All knowing being that put a temptation in the garden of Eden,  created Satan and many other things is either stupid or evil or both

C) vestigial organs

This is the kind of answer I am looking for. One with reasoned examples/realities.
: )

Then you are not looking very deep.

A) Yes, you would. But, they would get in trouble anyway
B) Free will, what a bitch.
C) ??? I would call these natural results of evolution. Of course, intra-species evolution which I don't believe contradicts Biblical creation.

Offline markinark

@ gonegolfing

Exactly, Christians call it 'Judgement Day'

[modbreak]Unnecessary quoting removed[/modbreak]
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 11:04:44 AM by Moderator 11 »