Author Topic: Why do you doubt the existence of a (a) Loving (b) All Knowing (c) Intelligent..  (Read 18716 times)

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Offline OnePerson

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The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

By the way, I was pointing out your logical fallacies, so why don't you respond to that?
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 02:34:32 PM by OnePerson »

Offline markinark

The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

From my readings, observations, experiences and ponderings, I believe God is the creator of the universe to be true.

Offline OnePerson

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The opposite of each of your conclusions is still possible.

There's a huge difference between "possible" and "true".  Frankly, I could just respond with "The opposite of each of your conclusions is also possible."

What matters is if you have reason to believe something to be true, not whether or not something could be true.

From my readings, observations, experiences and ponderings, I believe God is the creator of the universe to be true.

And from our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings, we believe God doesn't exist.

Now this is what debating is made for.  We share our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings with each other and see if they still make sense.

Offline markinark


Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

People looking for something does not prove its non-existence

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See, your mistake is using two different definitions of a word in the same way.  You say "There must be a higher power, and I call this higher power God".  That's one definition.  Then, you try to use the word "God" to refer to your Biblical God rather than just a higher power.  That's another definition.  Your problem is that you don't make the distinction.

The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.


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Fail logic: Good philosophical advice doesn't prove it's factual.

The same book that provides the advice makes the claim. And, the good advice doesn't disprove the claim either.

Offline markinark


Now this is what debating is made for.  We share our readings, observations, experiences, and ponderings with each other and see if they still make sense.

Right, and it's a debate because neither one of us can prove anything.

I think everything came from something and you think everything came from nothing.

Offline OnePerson

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Fail logic: People looking for something does not prove its existence.

People looking for something does not prove its non-existence

Thing is, I'm not claiming it does.  You're the one who actually claimed people looking for something is evidence for its existence.

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The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.

But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.

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The same book that provides the advice makes the claim. And, the good advice doesn't disprove the claim either.

And I'm not the one claiming good advice proves anything.

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Right, and it's a debate because neither one of us can prove anything.

I think everything came from something and you think everything came from nothing.

Where do you think God came from?

Offline markinark


But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.


God= the higher power who created the universe
MyBibleGod=God

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And I'm not the one claiming good advice proves anything.

Good advice proves intelligent thought.

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Where do you think God came from?

Like Einstein thought of energy, I think of God. Neither created nor destroyed, but can show up in different ways/states.

Offline velkyn

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So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-popularity.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-belief.html
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I look at the universe and sense something else is there.
You think you sense soemthing else is there.  Others claim the same thing and again have nothing to show for it.  What makes you think your version of "god" is the right one?  
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We trust our senses in other areas.
Yes, we do and in some cases that's a very stupid thing to do.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
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Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt.
Sorry, no we don't.  No special powers in women at all. Being one of them, I should know.  Any other gal want to chime in?  :)  Now, if I know my husband likes to look at a fine butt, I of course will notice him doing it.
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Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.
Again, appeal to popularity.  There is some evidence it seems for dark matter and dark energy but we haven't had much yet and the field is in its infancy. Yep, there is a lot of things we don't understand. But that is no reason to say "goddidit".  People have been saying goddidit for many many years and each time they say it, they're proven wrong since we find out more how the universe works.  Your god of the gaps is finding less gaps everyday. No longer is disease seen to be "god's will", we just do what we can to cure it.  
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I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.
And here we go, with the beginnings of the attempt to claim that we don't know what "real" reality is.  Mark, which of the messages in teh bible make sense? The "love one another" or the "kill everyone who doesn't worship god "right"?  You pick and choose and you have no more idea if your version of "god" is right than anyone else. You create a "god" to fit your own personal fears and desires, just like every other theist.  Oh and that "love one another" that was around long before your agrarian xenophobes on the banks shores of the Mediterreanean.  


« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 03:07:08 PM by velkyn »
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Offline OnePerson

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But you still can't use two different definitions on one word as if they're the same thing.


God= the higher power who created the universe
MyBibleGod=God

Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

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Good advice proves intelligent thought.

Good advice proves that specific thought was intelligent.

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Like Einstein thought of energy, I think of God. Neither created nor destroyed, but can show up in different ways/states.

Yeah, and the Big Bang doesn't say something came from nothing either.

Offline Hatter23

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First of all that was Tim's Question, not mine. You are saying that the creator of the Universe is BibleGod, what if it was something else than Biblegod?

So be it. Then all the religions of the world got it partially right. There is a creator (God). Just the commonality of Men seeking a higher power supports my belief there is something there. I look at the universe and sense something else is there. We trust our senses in other areas. Women have intuition they live by. Trust me, my wife knows the second I'm checking out some body else's butt. Some people believe they have ESP. There is 'dark matter' in the universe. There is 'dark energy' in the universe. There is so much shit about which we have absolutely no clue.

I don't think our perception of what the Bible is telling us is going to be spot on to what the actual reality may ultimately be. But, the message makes sense. Maybe it was left by intelligent life forms from another dimension. It still isn't bad 'life' advice. The Christian message of Jesus is a road map to peace on Earth/Goodwill toward men. Cliche`, but true.



So, how do assume that this being is worthy of or wants worship?, or that any part of any religion got it right at all? What if it just wants you to suffer being slowly digested? YOU ASSUME THAT WHICH IS NOT IN EVIDENCE.

How does the massage of God, who supposedly perfect, makes imperfect things, get upset at their imperfections even though he knew how they were going to play out, drowns most of them; then gets upset again and then send part of himself to sacrifice to himself to avert his own wrath....HOW DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE???????????????????????????

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline markinark

Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

Will that change the possibility they may be the same or just make you feel warm and fuzzy?

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Good advice proves that specific thought was intelligent.

Sheeeiiiittttt, you just split that hair right in half.

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Yeah, and the Big Bang doesn't say something came from nothing either.

No, but I think it claims there was an event which had not occurred until it did which means somethin' happened which according to Newton implies something caused it.

Offline Hatter23

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[
The problem is I believe both definitions to be true.


Then you believe the creator of the universe is BibleGod. That is a postive claim with actual claimed attributes. Therefore appeals to ignorance like "lots of thing in the universe" or "you cannot disprove" are no longer valid.

You need to stop using them.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline OnePerson

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Just use "MyBibleGod" from now on when you use the second definition, or quit capitalizing "God" when you're using the first definition.

Will that change the possibility they may be the same or just make you feel warm and fuzzy?

Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?

Offline markinark


Then you believe the creator of the universe is BibleGod. That is a postive claim with actual claimed attributes. Therefore appeals to ignorance like "lots of thing in the universe" or "you cannot disprove" are no longer valid.

You need to stop using them.

So if the BibleGod is the Creator God, then I have to understand everthing in the universe.

The writers of the Bible claim to have spoken or been spoken to by the Creator of the universe. Can you prove this claim false? Not, can you dismiss it because you don't like it or don't have fossils of the actual spoken words. Can you disprove their claim?

Offline markinark


Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?

apple=fruit=seed pod

Offline OnePerson

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Different definitions = Different words = Different usage.  Got it, or do you just like to disagree with everything I post?

apple=fruit=seed pod

Seed pod =/= fruit =/= apple

Offline Agamemnon

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Can you be more specific about the fallacies and irrationality? Exactly, and provide proofs if you have them, which part of my pondering is fallacious and irrational?

I trust velkyn has given you a good start.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Azdgari

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Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline markinark

Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?

Offline OnePerson

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Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?

No, what you tried was this:

"Sea creatures exist, the Lochness Monster fits under the definition of a sea creature, so the Lochness Monster must exist."

Except in your case, the words have the same spelling.

Offline generousgeorge

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two quotes and replys from previous post

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I look at the universe and sense something else is there.
You think you sense soemthing else is there.  Others claim the same thing and again have nothing to show for it.  What makes you think your version of "god" is the right one?  

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We trust our senses in other areas.
Yes, we do and in some cases that's a very stupid thing to do.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet



This is typical of how you play intellectually dishonest word games Mark.  In the use of sense here you mean sense in an extraordinary way, not with our "normal" senses.

Here you use sense to mean our actual physical senses.

Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

You change the real meaning of words to support an otherwise unsupportable assertion in defending your foregone conclusion.

sense =/= sense
Capeche??





 






« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 06:26:33 PM by generousgeorge »

Offline markinark


Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

Capeche??


Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.

Offline OnePerson

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Then you continue to reason as if sense used either way was interchangeable thus trying to give additional credibility to sense  version

Capeche??


Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.

Fruits are possibly apples.  We don't use "fruits" and "apples" interchangeably.

Offline generousgeorge

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Capeche, because it isn't possible these 'abnormal' senses are, in fact, under developed 'normal' senses. Possibly, they are in their infancy in the evolutionary 'sense' since our awakening from Ape to Man.

Possibly you are as full of stuffing as the Christmas Goose.  :P
« Last Edit: October 13, 2010, 04:22:12 PM by generousgeorge »

Offline Ashe

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No, trash the motorcycle. If you give him a choice something may go wrong, so don't give him the option. If he wants something fun to do, he can stand still and worship you.

Really, you want to strap your kid to a hunk of metal with a motor and send him down the road and you're worried about whether it should have a sprinkler system or not?

No, Mark, that's not the question. Are you reading my post?

In this example, it's my will for my child to have the motorcycle, you see. I've built the motorcycle just for my kid. There's a flaw in my design, though. I know that the motorcycle will catch fire because of the flaw. Do I...

a) Change my design entirely so there is no longer a flaw?
or
b) Just add on a feature to put out the fire once it inevitably starts?

Also, you haven't addressed the rest of the points in my post, and I would like you to do so. Please stop ignoring them. The post is here.
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Offline Azdgari

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GG, could you fix the quotes in post #223?  Thanks.

Markinark, if someone used the word "Jesus" whenever they meant to use the word "Satan", then that would make discussions about Jesus and Satan really difficult, wouldn't it?

The same problem exists with your usage of the word "God" for multiple purposes.

I didn't use it for multiple purposes. The God of my Bible is the higher power who created the universe- one God. one definition.

Is this coming out in English?

The word "god" is a general noun, and refers to a category.
The word "God" is proper noun, and refers to your deity.

They are not interchangeable; they have different meanings.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline OnePerson

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I swear, it's like arguing with a certain somebody again.

Offline Hatter23

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So if the BibleGod is the Creator God, then I have to understand everthing in the universe.

No, that is not what I said. That settles it. I tried to keep denying it, but you are a troll.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Ashe

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^ I've been thinking so.
2 miles!
"All men(humans )were demon possed and were planning to attack God. Just like if you talk back to your parents." - Failbag quote