Poll

What is your personal position with the recreational/hunting/concealed carry use of firearms?

Support and partake in one or all of the mentioned uses of firearms.
21 (41.2%)
Support the use of firearms, but do not partake in it.
19 (37.3%)
Neither support, nor use any form of firearm.
11 (21.6%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Author Topic: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage  (Read 15037 times)

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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #116 on: October 06, 2010, 09:27:52 AM »
Obviously I was referring to illegal drugs. That can be inferred quite easily from context. Marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, MDMA, so on, so forth.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #117 on: October 06, 2010, 09:33:10 AM »
A ban on illegal guns?  Quite a concept.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #118 on: October 06, 2010, 09:42:46 AM »
Making them illegal would naturally ban them, banning them would naturally make them illegal, yes. I don't, however, see how you inventing this redundancy just to point it out is in any way relevant to the issue. Maybe you should stop coming into threads and nitpicking semantics to no particular purpose.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #119 on: October 06, 2010, 09:43:17 AM »
Obviously I was referring to illegal drugs. That can be inferred quite easily from context. Marijuana, cocaine, heroin, LSD, MDMA, so on, so forth.

In order for the comparison to be valid ALL drugs would have to be banned across the board for private possession and use. That would include over-the-counter medications, prescription drugs as well as legal uses of the drugs you mentioned above. Anything the government defined as a "drug" would be included in the ban.

Then you would see a collapse of the legitimate industries that have been built up around the legal drug trade comparable to the collapse I described about the gun industry.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #120 on: October 06, 2010, 09:51:40 AM »
On the other hand...
Quote
A huge source of federal, state and local tax revenue would be lost. It would be a massive economic disaster.

In their place a thriving black market would spring up, and it would be like a re-enactment of the 1930's, except instead of alcohol it would be firearms. Prisons would be overflowing with criminals.
Is all perfectly true of illegal drugs.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #121 on: October 06, 2010, 10:02:12 AM »
No, it is not. We haven't had a massive economic disaster because we aren't taxing illegal drugs.

You take a portion of what I said out of context so that it looks like you still have a valid comparison. You don't.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #122 on: October 06, 2010, 10:09:32 AM »
Making them illegal would naturally ban them, banning them would naturally make them illegal, yes. I don't, however, see how you inventing this redundancy just to point it out is in any way relevant to the issue. Maybe you should stop coming into threads and nitpicking semantics to no particular purpose.

I was just reinforcing Agamemnon's very valid point that you are making an invalid comparison.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #123 on: October 06, 2010, 10:36:26 AM »
No, it is not. We haven't had a massive economic disaster because we aren't taxing illegal drugs.

You take a portion of what I said out of context so that it looks like you still have a valid comparison. You don't.
No, but that they could be taxing it and everything about the black market and whatnot is still valid.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #124 on: October 06, 2010, 10:39:47 AM »
Anyone that has heard the fables of "the boy who cried wolf" or "chicken little" ought to be able to recognize that same behavior in the NRA's claims that the wolf is killing the flock. The only difference here is that the townspeople never get the hint that the alarms are false. That's great for the NRA, because it keeps the cash rolling in.

Anyone who considers her or himself to be a skeptic ought to be seriously skeptical of the outrageous claims and rants that the NRA and its supporters put out.
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #125 on: October 06, 2010, 10:42:24 AM »
No, but that they could be taxing it and everything about the black market and whatnot is still valid.

They could be taxing the private sale of guided surface to air missles, too. Doesn't mean we ought to allow it.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #126 on: October 06, 2010, 10:50:43 AM »
Your claim is that cocaine may be used to shoot down airplanes? Interesting theory.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #127 on: October 06, 2010, 10:52:20 AM »
No, that is not my claim and you know it.

I am drawing a valid comparison between controlled substances and controlled weapons in order to show you that your point about taxation has no merit.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #128 on: October 06, 2010, 11:00:12 AM »
There are decent reasons to control missiles. What decent reasons are there to control drugs?

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #129 on: October 06, 2010, 11:09:47 AM »
It doesn't matter what the reasons are. This discussion is about firearms laws, not drug laws. Why do you want to change the topic?
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #130 on: October 06, 2010, 11:22:46 AM »
There are decent reasons to control missiles. What decent reasons are there to control drugs?

Decent reasons to control missiles? What about your civil liberties? Isn't that enough reason to NOT control missiles? I can think of potential situations where missiles would come in handy, especially over guns or knives.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:24:52 AM by Seppuku »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #131 on: October 06, 2010, 11:27:23 AM »
Hell, what if the government decided to go all tyrannical?  Those surface-to-air missiles would be damned useful for shooting down government aircraft.  Right?
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Online screwtape

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #132 on: October 06, 2010, 11:42:35 AM »
Yeah.  However will we overthrow a tyranical government if we cannot match their firepower?  Stealth cruise missiles for everyone!  Naturally, they will carry nuclear payloads.  M.A.D. is the only thing that will keep those politicians in line.

I must also conduct intelligence gathering and wiretapping on the same scale as the NSA to make sure the gummint isn't secretly plotting my demise.

Wild how libertarian ideas taking to their logical conclusion end in paranoia, complete chaos and collapse of society, innit?
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Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #133 on: October 06, 2010, 11:46:48 AM »
Hey, paranoia is what keeps the NRA rolling in money, so don't knock it.
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #134 on: October 06, 2010, 11:48:13 AM »
What about invasion? You can't trust the government to do the right thing? And well, if there's a bomber heading straight for your village, you'll be fucked if you're waiting for the armed forces to come save you. Heat seeking missiles will come in handy. These things have happened before, no doubt they'll happen again. Pearl Harbour was practically defenseless against the Japanese, people in the UK had to retreat from the main cities or into bunkers during WW2 because of the Germans bombing them - think how different things would be if people could defend themselves in those situations?

The second amendment was put in place for similar reasons, the US feared invasion from the British, you couldn't rely on the military to protect everyone or cover every entry from where the British might send their forces, hence it became a right to possess your own firearm. Today's threats are very different, I mean, newly independent America didn't have aircrafts to worry about or people bombing their towns and villages, I don't think a gun would take down a Russian bomber,  or any thing the middle east, China or Korea may wish to throw at us. Having missiles is well within your right to bear arms, surely?
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #135 on: October 06, 2010, 12:01:57 PM »
None of any of this invalidates my prior point.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #136 on: October 06, 2010, 12:03:46 PM »
What prior point? You mean the red herring you are throwing out there to distract from the fact that you have nothing to refute MY prior points?
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #137 on: October 06, 2010, 12:06:54 PM »
So we should be able to possess missiles for our own protection? Nukes too? All complete with the right to bear arms.

Well, I'd hate to live in that neighbourhood, though I doubt I would for very long.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #138 on: October 06, 2010, 12:35:05 PM »
There are decent reasons to control missiles. What decent reasons are there to control drugs?

You all seem to be arguing against a point I've never made.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #139 on: October 06, 2010, 12:46:19 PM »
Yeah, that's the red herring I thought you were talking about.

It isn't relevant to the topic at hand, so I have no reason to respond to it.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #140 on: October 06, 2010, 12:51:11 PM »
How exactly is it a red herring?

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #141 on: October 06, 2010, 12:53:26 PM »
Because it is off-topic in this particular discussion and has no bearing on it. It is a distraction from the discussion about weapons laws.
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Offline Seppuku

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #142 on: October 06, 2010, 12:55:53 PM »
I'm not on the topic of drugs, I'm still on the topic of gun ownership, because I'm not trying to change the subject.

I'm curious as to whether you stand by these arguments for legalisation of missiles. You've used the right to bear arms as your defense because you consider it a civil liberty we should all have, you've argued that a person ought to have the right and means to defend themselves regardless of how it effects how many people die a year as a result because owning a gun doesn't kill people, firing one does - murder is illegal so they've broken the law anyway - you've conjured up several situations where you could potentially use a gun to protect yourself and consider them to be more significant than if people die as a result of the legalisation - so those lives don't matter so long as everybody has the right to bear arms. Each of these arguments, as far as I can see provide defense for the ownership of the missiles, however, now you've turned around and said, "there are decent reasons to control missiles", surely that's in conflict with your previous arguments when suggesting everybody should have the right to possess a firearm to protect themselves and their loved ones?

When you think about the circumstance surrounding the 2nd amendment, it doesn't make the scenario I provided all that absurd. Especially with militant countries posing a thread to the west.
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Offline koberulz

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #143 on: October 06, 2010, 01:29:18 PM »
There are decent reasons to control guns, too. The question is whether or not they are more reasonable than the reasons not to, a point I wasn't covering.

Quote from: Agamemnon
Because it is off-topic in this particular discussion and has no bearing on it. It is a distraction from the discussion about weapons laws.
Oh. I didn't realise 'tangent' and 'red herring' were synonyms, or that it is utterly necessary for tangents to never occur on this board. I was under the impression that a red herring referred to an irrelevant point made by a poster in an effort to avoid answering questions on a particular subject. My bad.

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Atheists and Gun Ownership/Usage
« Reply #144 on: October 06, 2010, 01:45:46 PM »
Quote from: Agamemnon
Because it is off-topic in this particular discussion and has no bearing on it. It is a distraction from the discussion about weapons laws.
Oh. I didn't realise 'tangent' and 'red herring' were synonyms, or that it is utterly necessary for tangents to never occur on this board. I was under the impression that a red herring referred to an irrelevant point made by a poster in an effort to avoid answering questions on a particular subject. My bad.

You are trying to make an irrelevant point, apparently in an effort to distract from the good points I made earlier and your apparent inability to refute them. If that isn't the case, then I apologize, but then I will assume that you have tacitly agreed with all of my earlier points? If not then please show me where I am wrong and we can discuss it.

If you want to talk about the problems with current drug laws then I suggest you start a new topic about it, because I'm not interested in discussing it.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 02:13:19 PM by Agamemnon »
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