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Offline Expurgate

Refutation of wwgha
« on: September 28, 2010, 11:24:03 AM »
This whole site is a bit perplexing to me.

The website presents an oh so radical claim that God does not exist because of the shocking proof that...*drum roll*...God won't heal an amputee upon demand!

Even more shocking is that the owners of the site...*gasp*...cite scripture!  Oh no!  I guess we're talking about the Christian's view on God then...okay.

One of my best friends is atheist and has very decent arguments for not believing in God (or any god for that matter).  But this is just rubbish.

Why not name the website "whywontGodgivemepicklesforlegs.com" or "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

The central argument behind this website is that since the Bible states in various passages ([Matthew 21:21] [John 14:14] [Matthew 7:7] [Matthew 17:20] [Mark 11:24]) that praying for something will give you that something if you truly believe.  If Christianity were really that simplistic, I think the whole thing would have died out many many years ago...if it ever grew in the first place.

So what are the fallacies here?

1)  No definition of "prayer" by the website owners
2)  Misunderstanding of "prayer"
3)  Taking the biblical readings at face value
4)  Applying standards of value through the prism of an atheist or an undefined point of view



Various responses to the home page of this website:


1)  "The five quotes in the previous paragraph are all simple, straightforward statements. Doesn't "nothing will be impossible for you" mean "nothing will be impossible for you"? Jesus is God, and as an all-knowing being God knows how humans interpret sentences. If Jesus did not mean "nothing will be impossible for you," it seems like Jesus would have said something else. "

Answer:  Who says they're straightforward interpretations?  Sure, the language itself is straightforward.  But what Jesus is talking about is the belief that God can accomplish anything.  How many Christians really believe this?  Think of the famous incident of Jesus walking on water.  Whether you believe it happened or not, Jesus rebukes his followers for not -believing- that he could do it...for having lack of faith. 


2)  "In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.' If your prayer does not fit with God's will, then God will say 'no' to you." This feels odd because God's answer to every amputee is always "no" when it comes to regenerating lost limbs."

Answer:  So because many "believers" say it, it must be a doctrine of faith...errr...or not.  Again, a misinterpretation or lack of explanation to what "prayer" means or what the purpose of "prayer" is.  This is a big problem among many Christians.  Many people feel that God is this genie that is here to answer prayers and grant requests.  It just simply isn't that way...but this website helps highlight the problem!

3)   It makes no sense for a God in hiding to incarnate himself, or to do these other obvious things. Why send your son to earth, and then write a book that talks all about his exploits, if you are trying to hide?

Answer:  I think that most of us can agree that none of this makes any sense.  From a Christian or Catholic point of view, we acknowledge this mystery and the mystery of all of God's plan.  From an atheist view, wouldn't everything have to be shrouded in mystery?  One of my favorite Chesterton quotes:  "The morbid logician seeks to make everything lucid, and succeeds in making everything mysterious. The mystic allows one thing to be mysterious, and everything else becomes lucid."  Obviously a bit of an overstatement, but I think my point is rather clear.


4)  "Yet, for some reason, miracles never happen when it comes to regenerating lost limbs. It does not seem to make sense that amputees would be cut off from the blessings that Jesus promises in the Bible."

Answer:  I would again agree that it does not make "sense" in the traditional sense of the word.  When the website argues for this "sense", what does that mean?  From a Christian view, as stated earlier, we have no idea what God's plan or God's thoughts are.  In fact, I believe (not 100% certain) that the Catholic view is that the Holy Spirit is the only being that can comprehend the Father's thoughts.  Now for you atheists, what are you really arguing for here?  Are you saying that for God or a god to exist, all human beings must be on a level playing field?  That all human beings must fit into society in the same fashion and be equals?  Where does this view come from?  Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, it seems that the atheists are saying amputees are less valuable of human beings than "normal" human beings.  But to what end?  What does it matter?  If this life is truly pointless, then who cares?

5)  What about all the people who are born with missing limbs, or the people who lose limbs to diseases through no fault or choice of their own? How are these people any different from cancer victims, who, supposedly, are constantly being healed by God?

Answer:  Again, referring to my last answer, you're saying that God would have created everyone and everything equal, if He did indeed exist.  Correct?  You keep forcing these standards of value upon us, which does imply some sort of objective guide or measure.  If I were to ask you the same question you pose Christians, what would your answer be?  Our doctrine never states that all should be equal and that all is fair.  What about you?  From an atheist point of view, what's the problem with these people?  Do they not live a life that is "healthy" as defined by you?  Do they not live a life that is "normal" in length?  Why should they?  Are you arguing for a more comfortable or more convenient life?

6)  Not answering...

7)  Someone might say, "Thou shalt not test the Lord. It says so in the Bible." This is hard to swallow because every prayer is a test. Either God answers the prayer or he does not.

Answer:  Again..."every prayer is a test" is really YOUR view on what a prayer is, and what it is meant to accomplish.  In the Catholic Catechism, one of the four parts is dedicated to prayer.  Hundreds of pages.  As defined by St. Therese of Lisieux in the first part of the catechism:  "For me, prayer is a surge of heart; it is a simple look turned toward heaven, it is a cry of recognition and of love, embracing both trial and joy".  Some, if not most Christians view God as this genie who will answer prayers by the faithful.  This is simply not the case. 

8)  Redundant

9)  Redundant

10)  A believer might say, "You are taking the Bible literally." But how else are we supposed to take it? Jesus clearly says, "If you ask anything in my name, I will do it." When Jesus says that, what does he mean? Presumably, Jesus means that if you ask for anything, he will do it. What else could he possibly mean?

Answer:  Very good question.  Protestants do have a tough time answering this one.  But for Catholics, we have the Magisterium to help guide us.  That's why we have a catechism.  These scholars go and look through the original texts in their original languages and apply their interpretation in regards to our whole deposit of faith.  We believe that the whole of the bible acts in harmony.  As with any document/book/argument, it's best to try and understand it as a whole rather than trying to select sentences or certain passages.  Realistically, I wouldn't blame you for not reading the whole bible...it's a lengthy thing. 

11)  Already addressed "mysteries"


More arguments:

12) God is imaginary. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes complete sense in light of the evidence we see in our world.

Answer:  And indeed that might be appealing.  What evidence are you referring to?  In a highly simplistic view, I think things can go one of two ways.  #1:  All matter, everything, existed and had no creator.  It just existed.  #2:  There is a creator and a first-mover.  I don't think there is much evidence at this point that everything just existed without a creator.  Can we point to something like this in our world?  Something that existed without a creator?  There is obviously no definite proof you can offer to how our universe expanded.  So, it appears that an atheist gets stuck with the same predicament that a Christian (or any religion) gets put in:  you must have *faith* that everything merely WAS and merely IS.  Hence the big bang THEORY.  There is no definite proof to what happened at the beginning of universe...we're simply in the dark together.

13)  We pray sincerely, knowing that when God answers this completely heartfelt, unselfish, non-materialistic prayer, it will glorify God and help millions of people in remarkable ways. Will anything happen? Of course not. If prayers like this worked, Christians would have prayed every disease on the planet into extinction centuries ago. But if God were to exist, why would he ignore such a worthy prayer?

Answer:  You're just hitting on the age-old "If God existed, why is there suffering?".  That's all this whole thing is.  You've reworded it and put in questions about amputees, but it seems very clear to me that this is just the same question.  Why are atheists concerned with suffering?  As I stated earlier, you are implying that a comfortable life is preferable to a agonizing life.  Why?  And why would you care about it on macro level?  Why does it matter that millions of people have cancer and will die from it?  Are you stating that life is better than death?  Why?  You keep implying that an amputee is in need of help or needs to be cured.  Why?  It's easy to attack Christianity, which has a doctrine and defined beliefs, but what about atheism?  Why even attack Christianity in the first place? 

14)   If children are precious to Jesus, then why is he killing 10 million of them every year with abject poverty?

Answer:  And now Jesus is killing children through poverty.  What a statement!  So am I to believe that Jesus is this puppetmaster that controls everything and is forcing people into poverty?  Especially children?  Christianity, along with most every other major form of religion or philosophy, believes that we have free will.  Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.  Christians are instructed to help these children out.  This question keeps feeding in from the idea that if God/Christ existed, life must be a certain way.  This way seems to be a life of material comfort, a life without disease, a life without misfortune, etc... All these miserable conditions existed during Christ's time and before his time.  So I don't know where this notion comes from where we must live in some nirvana on earth to prove God's existence.


Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to read this post.  I look forward to anyone's well-intentioned response and argument. 

I apologize for not proof-reading it more, but I have to run out for about an hour.


Offline Operator_A25

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2010, 12:01:12 PM »
Expurgate,

Welcome to wwgha.

I've moved this to a new thread because it was off topic in the thread to which you had responded.

Please review the forum rules.


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Offline blahsphemer

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2010, 12:22:05 PM »
howdy Expurgate
in reguards to this statemt
2)  "In a similar vein, many believers will say, "God always answers prayers, but sometimes his answer is 'no.'
why do Christians even bother praying?
You would get the same results if you prayed to milk jug.
Because this statement is just as true.
"In a similar vein, many believers will say, "Milk Jug always answers prayers, but sometimes Milk Jug's  answer is 'no.'
Im short on time i'll be back latter to see your response. ;)
  <<the kind of christian woman i like.

Offline HAL

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2010, 12:33:08 PM »
The website presents an oh so radical claim that God does not exist because of the shocking proof that...*drum roll*...God won't heal an amputee upon demand!

Where does the website say that god should heal an amputee on demand?

The point is that theists come here all the time and claim that their deity heals all kinds of health problems. So the site asks why won't this deity heal amputees, i.e., why won't it heal an ailment that would be obvious to everyone, rather than a headache or some other problem that could have alternate explanations.

Can you answer the question?

Offline Str82Hell

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 12:35:11 PM »
Welcome to the forum, Expurgate.

You say you're a Catholic and it appears to me that you underwrite the authority of the Church. Therefore let me ask you the following questions:

1) Do you believe in transubstantiation? The Catholic Church teaches that bread and wine change into Jesus' flesh and blood during the holy communion, literally.

2) Since the pope is the representative of god on earth who has a direct line to god, do you think that the pope is right when he says the holocaust was an act of atheism, or do you think that the holocaust was initiated by a Catholic Christian and made possible by Christians who, apparently, still held a grudge against the people who murdered sweet baby Jesus?

If your answer to both questions is 'no', can you explain to me how you know which parts of the catechism hold more authority than other parts of the catechism.
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The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one

Offline Tykster

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2010, 01:00:56 PM »
This whole site is a bit perplexing to me.


Thanks for clearing that up, we normally have to paint theists into a corner before they come to this conclusion. Reading through your entire post it is clear that you need to read more about the subject(s) that you are trying to make sense of, your lack of knowledge though shouldn't discourage you from becoming more familiar with things like the Theory of Evolution, cosmology, physics, biology, astronomy etc. that all, quite nicely I might add, agree on the basic principles of how matter and life come to be......

As they say the devil is in the details, and where science has not yet fully answered some questions, the scientific community tends to shout a resounding, "We don't know", which stimulates further inquiry...as opposed to invoking a superagent and calling it a day.

As an example, in your post :




12) God is imaginary. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes complete sense in light of the evidence we see in our world.

Answer:  And indeed that might be appealing.  What evidence are you referring to?  In a highly simplistic view, I think things can go one of two ways.  #1:  All matter, everything, existed and had no creator.  It just existed.  #2:  There is a creator and a first-mover.   I don't think there is much evidence at this point that everything just existed without a creator.  Can we point to something like this in our world?  Something that existed without a creator?  There is obviously no definite proof you can offer to how our universe expanded.  So, it appears that an atheist gets stuck with the same predicament that a Christian (or any religion) gets put in:  you must have *faith* that everything merely WAS and merely IS.  Hence the big bang THEORY.  There is no definite proof to what happened at the beginning of universe...we're simply in the dark together.


<my bold>

False dichotomy, and then you use a fallacious argument from incredulity, which only shines a spot light on your ignorance. You'll find that on this site there are some very smart people who can patiently and logically explain away some the mysteries that you seem to have. There is also a search feature that you might put to good use.

FWIW, if you inquire with a genuine wish to expand your knowledge base, and not simply storm in with a poor attitude and an even poorer grasp on reality and expect us to be impressed with your empty rhetoric, you'll find the dialog really quite enlightening.

Hence my advice that you should do some serious research before you come here and embarrass yourself.....

Anyhow, thanks for taking the time to read this post.  I look forward to anyone's well-intentioned response and argument. 

I apologize for not proof-reading it more, but I have to run out for about an hour.



See you in an hour or so then......
rhocam ~ I guess there are several trillion cells in a man, and one in an amoeba, so to be generous, lets say that there were a billion. That is one every fifteen years. So in my lifetime I should have seen two evolutionary changes.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2010, 01:09:20 PM »
This whole site is a bit perplexing to me.
The website presents an oh so radical claim that God does not exist because of the shocking proof that...*drum roll*...God won't heal an amputee upon demand!
Radical? No, just observing the claims of the bible that aren't coming true as promised.  
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Even more shocking is that the owners of the site...*gasp*...cite scripture!  Oh no!  I guess we're talking about the Christian's view on God then...okay.
So you aren't a Christian? If I may ask, what are you since you seem offended that Christianity is being address rather than whatever you may believe?
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One of my best friends is atheist and has very decent arguments for not believing in God (or any god for that matter).  But this is just rubbish
I just have to chuckle when I see the "one of my best friends is a "x"" claim.  

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Why not name the website "whywontGodgivemepicklesforlegs.com" or "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"
because the Bible cites healing and answering prayers as something BibleGod does.
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The central argument behind this website is that since the Bible states in various passages ([Matthew 21:21] [John 14:14] [Matthew 7:7] [Matthew 17:20] [Mark 11:24]) that praying for something will give you that something if you truly believe.  If Christianity were really that simplistic, I think the whole thing would have died out many many years ago...if it ever grew in the first place.
Oh, so you know what God "really meant" and it's not as simplistic as it seems and God really didn't mean what it supposedly "inspired".  

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So what are the fallacies here?1)  No definition of "prayer" by the website owners
Prayer? I think he's using the definition in the bible.  Please, expurgate, tell us what prayer "really" means.
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2)  Misunderstanding of "prayer"
ah, I see an attempt at redefining a word so you can excuse your god.
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3)  Taking the biblical readings at face value
ah, excellent. So we can just decide on our own what is literal and what is metaphor.  Sorry, but this has been tried before and none of you can agree on what the magic forumula for doing this is.
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4)  Applying standards of value through the prism of an atheist or an undefined point of view
Oh here we go, the claims that one must believe for one "really" understands it.  Quite a chicken and the egg problem isn't it.

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From a Christian view, as stated earlier, we have no idea what God's plan or God's thoughts are.
ah the usual claim that we can't understand god, which is quickly ignored when the theist wants to claim that they somehow "know" what God "really meant" when insisting that someone else's interpretation is wrong.  

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Why are atheists concerned with suffering?  As I stated earlier, you are implying that a comfortable life is preferable to a agonizing life.  Why?  And why would you care about it on macro level?  Why does it matter that millions of people have cancer and will die from it?  Are you stating that life is better than death?  Why?  You keep implying that an amputee is in need of help or needs to be cured.  Why?  It's easy to attack Christianity, which has a doctrine and defined beliefs, but what about atheism?  Why even attack Christianity in the first place?  

I suspect that you have done all you've could to have a comfortable life. You obviously have a computer and the leisure time to use it. Awfully nice there whining that you don't have to question why your God lets children starve when you have all of that. I also suspect that you've totally ignored your "savior" when he said that to follow him and get into heaven, give up all your worldly possessions and follow him. Not just some but *all*.  IF this is true, then your own actions indicate that you agree that a comfortable life is preferable to an agonizign one.  I certainly prefer it and since I am a decent empathetic human being, I would like if everyone could be as comfortable as me.  I would wish those poor people who have likely been buried alive in Mexico under a landslide could be found alive and they could have a house as nice as mine, and health care, etc. I would wish that you would take your statements and go to a VA hospital or one of the clinics in Haiti and tell the amputees there that they don't need to be healed or need help.  I mean, the sheer ignorance and insensitivity toward people who have been very badly hurt is sickening.

Atheism is no more than having no belief in a god or gods.  I suspect you wish it was otherwise to have a strawman to tilt at but sorry, it's nothing else.  Now, atheists can have lots of varied moral stances.  You'll see those here whenever a thread about vegetarianism or animal cruelty or homosexuality or child rearing come up.  

The reason I focus on Christianity is 1. I'm from the US so it's the most familiar.  2. It's prevalent all over the world. and 3. It has a history of causing misery and death wherever it goes.  And 4, it's becasue of the statements of individuals like you, all so sure in your religion that you say sad sick things like amputees don't need healing or help, that life isn't better than death with your delusions of your magical afterlife reward dancing in your head.   When you say things like
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Christianity, along with most every other major form of religion or philosophy, believes that we have free will.
that just shows a willful ignorance. Please, expurgate, tell me me how the constant inteference by your god in supposed "miracles" fits in with "free will". Each interference limits free will. Heck your bible says directly that God isn't interested in free will with the numerous times that God takes controll of a person.  I know that Catholics aren't encouraged to read their bible but really...

and this
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Christianity, along with most every other major form of religion or philosophy, believes that we have free will.  Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.  Christians are instructed to help these children out.
I love when a Catholic says things like this with a ludicrously bloated and wealthy "church" looming over their shoulder.  And why should humans need to do God's work? Why does God suddenly need humanity's help when according to your myth book he didnt' before?  Why no manna in the desert, no water from a rock?  
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 02:05:40 PM »
Oh dear, so many words...

Even more shocking is that the owners of the site...*gasp*...cite scripture!  Oh no!  I guess we're talking about the Christian's view on God then...okay.

Umm... yes?  The site even says as much.  And it's not surprising, considering the author of the site is from America, where the Christian god is pretty much always the one that being talked about.


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Why not name the website "whywontGodgivemepicklesforlegs.com" or "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

So you're comparing helping people, to making stupid demands?  How wonderful.  &)





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Answer:  Who says they're straightforward interpretations?  Sure, the language itself is straightforward.  But what Jesus is talking about is the belief that God can accomplish anything.  How many Christians really believe this?  Think of the famous incident of Jesus walking on water.  Whether you believe it happened or not, Jesus rebukes his followers for not -believing- that he could do it...for having lack of faith. 



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Answer:  So because many "believers" say it, it must be a doctrine of faith...errr...or not.  Again, a misinterpretation or lack of explanation to what "prayer" means or what the purpose of "prayer" is.  This is a big problem among many Christians.  Many people feel that God is this genie that is here to answer prayers and grant requests.  It just simply isn't that way...but this website helps highlight the problem!

Another OneTrueChristianTM, I see.  You've interpreted the bible correctly, while everyone else got it wrong.  Just like everyone else.



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Answer:  I think that most of us can agree that none of this makes any sense.  From a Christian or Catholic point of view, we acknowledge this mystery and the mystery of all of God's plan.  From an atheist view, wouldn't everything have to be shrouded in mystery?  One of my favorite Chesterton quotes:  "The morbid logician seeks to make everything lucid, and succeeds in making everything mysterious. The mystic allows one thing to be mysterious, and everything else becomes lucid."  Obviously a bit of an overstatement, but I think my point is rather clear.


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Answer:  I would again agree that it does not make "sense" in the traditional sense of the word.  When the website argues for this "sense", what does that mean?  From a Christian view, as stated earlier, we have no idea what God's plan or God's thoughts are.  In fact, I believe (not 100% certain) that the Catholic view is that the Holy Spirit is the only being that can comprehend the Father's thoughts.  Now for you atheists, what are you really arguing for here?  Are you saying that for God or a god to exist, all human beings must be on a level playing field?  That all human beings must fit into society in the same fashion and be equals?  Where does this view come from?  Unless I'm interpreting this incorrectly, it seems that the atheists are saying amputees are less valuable of human beings than "normal" human beings.  But to what end?  What does it matter?  If this life is truly pointless, then who cares?

Now this is little more than the usual "god works in mysterious ways" nonsense.  You've just said a bunch of impressive sounding woo, while giving no real answer.

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 02:13:54 PM »


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Answer:  Very good question.  Protestants do have a tough time answering this one.  But for Catholics, we have the Magisterium to help guide us.  That's why we have a catechism.  These scholars go and look through the original texts in their original languages and apply their interpretation in regards to our whole deposit of faith.  We believe that the whole of the bible acts in harmony.  As with any document/book/argument, it's best to try and understand it as a whole rather than trying to select sentences or certain passages.  Realistically, I wouldn't blame you for not reading the whole bible...it's a lengthy thing.  

Meaning someone tells you how to think.

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#2:  There is a creator and a first-mover.  I don't think there is much evidence at this point that everything just existed without a creator.


So who created god?

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Can we point to something like this in our world?  Something that existed without a creator?
 

A puddle?  Well, that's created by rain, but I've got the impression you're talking about deliberate creation.  :shrug




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Hence the big bang THEORY.  There is no definite proof to what happened at the beginning of universe...we're simply in the dark together.

You really have no idea what the scienfic usage of the word "theory" mean.  



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Answer:  You're just hitting on the age-old "If God existed, why is there suffering?".  That's all this whole thing is.  You've reworded it and put in questions about amputees, but it seems very clear to me that this is just the same question.  Why are atheists concerned with suffering?  As I stated earlier, you are implying that a comfortable life is preferable to a agonizing life.  Why?  And why would you care about it on macro level?  Why does it matter that millions of people have cancer and will die from it?  Are you stating that life is better than death?  Why?  You keep implying that an amputee is in need of help or needs to be cured.  Why?  


Wait, are you implying that you're not at all concerned about the pain and suffering of others?  Surely you jest.  :(
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Gordon Freeman

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2010, 02:14:26 PM »
Asking Why won't god heal amputee is as valid as asking god to find an empty parking place or car keys. Yet we see many christians thanking god for fulfilling their prayers when asking such trivial questions, but when amputees ask for a new limb and doesn't get any (except a hook) you come and say that we didn't get it right.

I understand that modern theology teaches that god loves the world and that he is a caring father. We don't expect that "our father" would give us a snake when we ask for a fish or a stone when ask for a bread (Matthew 7:7-11), and we simply ask, "Why won't god heal amputee?", if he cares so much? When I see a cat in the street, I tend to help it if it needs. Cat doesn't even need to ask me, and even if it bit me I would like to help it.

Don't you know what Matthew 6:26-32 says?

Look at the birds in the sky: They do not sow, or reap, or gather into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren’t you more valuable than they are? And which of you by worrying can add even one hour to his life? Why do you worry about clothing? Think about how the flowers of the field grow; they do not work or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his glory was clothed like one of these! 30 And if this is how God clothes the wild grass, which is here today and tomorrow is tossed into the fire to heat the oven, won’t he clothe you even more, you people of little faith? So then, don’t worry saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear?’ For the unconverted pursue these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them.
The bible is like our celebrity world: Beautiful from outside, but rotten from inside.
---me---

When you confront bible and logic, it is not logic that fails.
---me---

Offline xphobe

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2010, 02:48:40 PM »
Hi Expurgate,

Well, it got you here, didn't it?  <smirk>


Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

I love it!  I am so registering that domain.  "pewpewpew" rofl!
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Offline MathIsCool

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2010, 02:56:38 PM »
^^^^^
Totally agree. :)  "Whywontgodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com" is hilarious!
Why not name the website ... "whywontGodallowlaserstoshootoutofmyeyespewpewpew.com"

 - Expurgate, here

Offline Agamemnon

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2010, 03:20:53 PM »
It is absurd, but according to the bible, it is easily within the power of god and can be attained through prayer.

So why not?
So far as I can remember, there is not one word in the Gospels in praise of intelligence.  --Bertrand Russell

Offline xphobe

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2010, 03:55:14 PM »
^ Even without considering the Bible's promise to answer prayers, it makes for an interesting rhetorical question.

Starfish and lizard and insect amputees are healed.  Why not human?  Other illnesses are healed.  Why not amputation? 

Out of the 20 billion or so people who have been born since about the 1700s, not a single amputated limb has ever regrown, that we know of.  One would think that the odds would favor it, even if God is just doing it now and then for a lark.

Hmmm... maybe its surprising statistical rarity is itself evidence for God's existence!
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2010, 04:23:41 PM »
"So much to say, so much to say, so much to say, so much to say."
--So Much To Say, Dave Mathews Band

Where to even begin. If this site had a penny for every religious person who came here with these identical arguments...we could heal all the amputees our damn selves! The OP missed the basic point of a human website, but is an expert at interpreting the complexities of god. Sigh.

Okay, I accept that I read the bible wrong and interpret it wrong and misunderstand the meanings.

And is this my fault. The bible, god's first last and only words, the most important book of all time, needs a phalanx of experts to interpret it to us stupid regular people. There is nothing in the bible that was not already known to the illiterate people of the time, but I need an expert to tell me what it means. God communicates with humans by using a book that can be easily misread, mistranslated and misused.

I am an atheist and I care about people in trouble. If there is a god, he should be able to care about people in trouble at least as much as me. If I could help all the hungry children in the world, I would. But god doesn't care as much as I do.

Yes, atheists care about suffering, and don't need threats or rewards to do it. Christians only care about other people because god tells them to. If god told you not to care, you would stop. (I know, he would never do that. Although you can't tell us anything for sure about this mysterious being, he is the bestest thing ever.  That you know for sure.  :D)

How about this one: when you look at the world, it appears as though there is an all powerful, caring, magical, wonderful being in charge of everything. What possible evidence would bring anyone to think that? If there were marvelous, magical unexplainable things like amputees growing back their missing limbs after praying to god, well, maybe yes.

God sends horrible natural disasters to religious Haiti and Pakistan, but not to atheistic Sweden and Denmark. In general, atheist countries like Japan are better off than religious places like Mexico and the Philippines. Is there any detectable rhyme or reason to the behavior of god?

Does ANYTHING ever happen that could only have been done by your particular god person? Not any other god, not a human being, not a random occurence, but your very own god person. How would you know?

Does prayer work? How do you know? If prayer does not work, than why do it? If prayer does not help the most downtrodden people, than what good is it?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline sammylama

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2010, 04:42:18 PM »
bm

Welcome to the forum, Expurgate.  Stick around, it'll be a hoot.   ;D
You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe.
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Offline Gimpy

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2010, 05:32:53 PM »
This whole site is a bit perplexing to me.

The website presents an oh so radical claim that God does not exist because of the shocking proof that...*drum roll*...God won't heal an amputee upon demand!

Even more shocking is that the owners of the site...*gasp*...cite scripture!  Oh no!  I guess we're talking about the Christian's view on God then...okay.



Then you must have missed this very first full paragraph on the site:

Quote
If God is real and if God inspired the Bible, then we should worship God as the Bible demands. We should certainly post the Ten Commandments in our courthouses and shopping centers, put "In God We Trust" on the money and pray in our schools. We should focus our society on God and his infallible Word because our everlasting souls hang in the balance.


So, clearly this site is directed at BibleGod and no other god. So any conclusions regarding disproving "god" are for disproving "BibleGod."

Not all those who wander are lost; some are buried in my backyard. . .

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2010, 05:49:17 PM »
^ Even without considering the Bible's promise to answer prayers, it makes for an interesting rhetorical question.

Starfish and lizard and insect amputees are healed.  Why not human?  Other illnesses are healed.  Why not amputation? 

Out of the 20 billion or so people who have been born since about the 1700s, not a single amputated limb has ever regrown, that we know of.  One would think that the odds would favor it, even if God is just doing it now and then for a lark.

Hmmm... maybe its surprising statistical rarity is itself evidence for God's existence!
   Lizards can imperfectly grow back their tails not limbs. Some species of newts/salamanders can regenerate limbs. Type regeneration of limbs into Wikipedia for more info.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2010, 06:03:28 PM »
^ You missed my point.  I really don't care whether a tail is considered a limb or whether a salamander is a lizard. 
I stopped believing for a little while this morning. Journey is gonna be so pissed when they find out...

Offline Nick

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2010, 06:49:02 PM »
It is not so much that he won't heal amputees on demand.  He won't heal them at all.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2010, 06:54:17 PM »
^ You missed my point.  I really don't care whether a tail is considered a limb or whether a salamander is a lizard. 
  No, I didn't miss your point. I was correcting an error on your part. But if you are going to make a point wouldn't you rather make it with accurate information?
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline xphobe

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2010, 07:04:08 PM »
I never used the word "limb", you did.  Can we keep this thread on-topic please?
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Offline Asmoday

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #22 on: September 28, 2010, 07:05:50 PM »
I doubt we'll ever hear back from this one. Looks like a drive-by-poster to me.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #23 on: September 28, 2010, 07:22:23 PM »
This whole site is a bit perplexing to me.

I am equally perplexed by any holy book.


The website presents an oh so radical claim that God does not exist because of the shocking proof that...*drum roll*...God won't heal an amputee upon demand!

That's a drastic oversimplification. There are many stated reasons why a god doesn't exist besides the lack of healing amputees. The lack of restored amputees -- any of them, anywhere in the world, at any time in history -- is the most demonstrative lack of proof for the power of god. If no amputee has ever been restored to the prior non-amputee state, it begs the conclusion that god must not exist.


The central argument behind this website is that since the Bible states in various passages ([Matthew 21:21] [John 14:14] [Matthew 7:7] [Matthew 17:20] [Mark 11:24]) that praying for something will give you that something if you truly believe.  If Christianity were really that simplistic, I think the whole thing would have died out many many years ago...if it ever grew in the first place.

No, the central argument behind this website is that the one thing that any amputee has prayed for, the restoration of amputated body part(s), has gone unanswered by god. You could claim that many different prayers have been divinely answered, but for which there is no hard evidence because the answers most often consist of coincidence or even poorly constructed prayer/answer combinations for which any response can be morphed into an answer by god. The singular issue of amputees focuses on the fact that it doesn't matter what was amputated, who the victim was or which flavor of god you think is best for prayer, the evidence of restoration of amputees is completely absent from the world in which god is ultimate being in his divine kingdom. What better incontrovertible evidence for the existing of god could there be but the restoration of amputees?


So what are the fallacies here?

1)  No definition of "prayer" by the website owners
2)  Misunderstanding of "prayer"
3)  Taking the biblical readings at face value
4)  Applying standards of value through the prism of an atheist or an undefined point of view

Go ahead and define prayer however you like. You will likely define prayer in such a way as to justify any belief in god that you have. I'm sure that you will identify our misunderstanding of prayer that doesn't fit within your definition.

Many Christians read the bible as written and rely on the ideas as shown. If the bible is not to be taken at face value, then who decides the value it has? Isn't the bible the user manual for religion? If not, what purpose does it serve? Entertainment?

There is no prism of an atheist. An atheist is a person who does not believe in or follow a god or religion. It begins with a requirement of proof, and since there isn't any proof, there must not be any god.



The remainder of your post is noise.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline xphobe

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2010, 10:23:02 PM »
The lack of restored amputees -- any of them, anywhere in the world, at any time in history -- is the most demonstrative lack of proof for the power of god. If no amputee has ever been restored to the prior non-amputee state, it begs the conclusion that god must not exist.

I wouldn't go quite that far.  I'd say it's a demonstrative proof of the lack of magical events in this world, which by extension means lack of Yahweh since he was said to do magical things and answer prayers.  But some other god besides Yahweh could still exist, which is simply not interested in healing amputees or answering human prayers at all.

I wonder what our website would be about if we lived in an alternate reality where humans routinely regenerated lost body parts.  Maybe whywontgodraisethedead.com?

Great post btw, Chronos.
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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2010, 10:30:59 PM »
Quote from: Expurgate
Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.

Throwing lots of money isn't quite how you solve poverty.

Offline TopolX

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2010, 10:46:46 PM »
Quote from: Expurgate
Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.

Throwing lots of money isn't quite how you solve poverty.

In fact from an economic perspective it can worsen it due to the suprisingly named "moral hazard" problem.
If I don't agree with anyone am I invariably wrong?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2010, 03:27:55 PM »
Quote from: Expurgate
Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.

Throwing lots of money isn't quite how you solve poverty.
It certainly takes care of the poverty problem faced by rich people's kids....... 8)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Positiveaob

Re: Refutation of wwgha
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2010, 09:12:10 AM »
Quote from: Expurgate
Millions of children are in poverty and millions more don't help them.  From a Christian perspective, that is a REJECTION of one of the three theological virtues:  charity.

I know this guy is long long gone.  But aside from the usual easily-refutable nonsense he/she was spouting, this quote jumped out at me.

Is it really your thought that an almighty creator god created the world and everything in it, making some poorer then others, then expects the richer of his creation to fix the problem?  What possible sense would that make?  Why would he not just fix the problem himself?  Is this just some kind of game or something? 

Same thing with relief from natural disasters, like the earthquake in Haiti.  Basically, you think some invisible guy in the sky just up and decided to wipe out tens of thousands of his creation (and leave hundreds of thousands more homeless), then wants other members of his creation to go help those that survived?  How do you logically reconcile that?  This god you are praising would have been the one who caused the natural disaster!  Aren't you sort of working against his wishes?

As an atheist, I don't have to go through such logical loop-de-loops to help out others in need.  I want to live in a world where people help others in their time of need, because I know I may also need such help someday.  And by contributing to such relief efforts, I am helping make the world such a place.
If you desire peace of soul and happiness, then believe; if you would be a disciple of truth, then inquire. - Neitzsche

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