Author Topic: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)  (Read 13906 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #58 on: October 02, 2008, 05:13:46 PM »
No, Poseidon, you claimed that God cannot be described by our perception of logic.  Since we only have out perception of logic to go on, we cannot describe God logically at all.  He is, by your description, 100% beyond our understanding.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you from claiming all sorts of divine inspiration of your own, but hey, that's pathological dishonesty for ya.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #59 on: October 02, 2008, 05:16:57 PM »
No, Poseidon, you claimed that God cannot be described by our perception of logic.  Since we only have out perception of logic to go on, we cannot describe God logically at all.  He is, by your description, 100% beyond our understanding.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you from claiming all sorts of divine inspiration of your own, but hey, that's pathological dishonesty for ya.

Except for the time thing which is clearly stated three different forms in the bible, but I guess you forgot to read that.

I would say that He is 99.99999999% beyond our understanding.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #60 on: October 02, 2008, 05:21:26 PM »
No, Poseidon, you claimed that God cannot be described by our perception of logic.  Since we only have out perception of logic to go on, we cannot describe God logically at all.  He is, by your description, 100% beyond our understanding.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you from claiming all sorts of divine inspiration of your own, but hey, that's pathological dishonesty for ya.

Oh and for the record, you putting words in my mouth like a pathetic politicians arguement is just sad. Never misquote me.

The logic that I was refering to as failing was your own, for you cannpt grasp the simple concept that I am trying to explain to you.

Those crystals are a part of the universe and therefore were designed along with the rest of the universe to form that way at a certain point in time. Inanimate objects do not make decisions, they just are.

We as sentient humans DO make decisions. However, you just wanted to twist the discussion into something that it was not.

Your decision. Nobody made you do it. You did it. God knew you would too.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 06:30:22 PM by nihilanth »
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #61 on: October 02, 2008, 05:30:54 PM »
Nihilanth, I have been courteous to you, so please extend me the same courtesy and stop ignoring me.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #62 on: October 02, 2008, 05:38:52 PM »
Nihilanth, I have been courteous to you, so please extend me the same courtesy and stop ignoring me.

Hey now I am trying. I do not come here a whole lot anymore.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #63 on: October 02, 2008, 05:40:02 PM »
Most of you cannot understand the concept that free will and pre-determination can exist simultaneously.
Um, that's because they can't. If pre-determinism is true, then everything that happens was bound to happen, meaning you have no choice.

You still make the choices and I am not getting into this. Atheists cannot understand it.
Because it's a logical fallacy?
At this point, logic fails.
So God can defy logic?

Our perception of it.
I suppose that means God could tell you something that isn't true, without lying. Or cause someone to die, without killing them.

Not really. What I am saying is that our logic fails us at times because we are not perfect. Logic is.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #64 on: October 02, 2008, 05:43:43 PM »
I suppose that means God could tell you something that isn't true, without lying. Or cause someone to die, without killing them.
Not really. What I am saying is that our logic fails us at times because we are not perfect. Logic is.
How do we know which parts of our logic are in error?

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #65 on: October 02, 2008, 05:53:34 PM »
I suppose that means God could tell you something that isn't true, without lying. Or cause someone to die, without killing them.
Not really. What I am saying is that our logic fails us at times because we are not perfect. Logic is.
How do we know which parts of our logic are in error?

We do not because none of us are perfect. Therefore we just may percieve that something is logical when in fact it is not. Especially when it comes to vastly complex things which are beyond our comprehension.

If God exists, and I believe that He does, He would be so far above our level of understanding that his logic would be impossible for us to figure out on certain levels. We can only figure out certain properties which would be logical if an entity created the universe.

The forming of the crystals were probably totally predetermined by the creator of the universe, yet we are the ones who make our decisions which are only fully known throughout time by God(this creator), and by you at the time of your death if you have a perfect memory.

Also, the God of the Bible is the only one written about by man who posseses this quality. To me, that gives this God more merrit than the others imagined up by humans in a vein attempt to understand how the universe got here.

My reasons for bellieving are sound ones. Most of you may not agree but so what? If we all thought the same way this planet would be quite the boring place IMHO.



« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 09:06:08 PM by nihilanth »
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Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2008, 06:03:08 PM »
How do we know which parts of our logic are in error?

We do not because none of us are perfect. Therefore we just may perceive that something is logical when in fact it is not. Especially when it comes to vastly complex things which is beyond our comprehension.

If God exists, and I believe that He does, He would be so far above our level of understanding that his logic would be impossible for us to figure out on certain levels. We can only figure out certain properties which would be logical if an entity created the universe.

The forming of the crystals were probably totally predetermined by the creator of the universe, yet we are the ones who make our decisions which are only fully known throughout time by God(this creator), and by you at the time of your death if you have a perfect memory.

Also, the God of the Bible is the only one written about by man who posseses this quality. To me, that gives this God more merrit than the others imagined up by humans in a vein attempt to understand how the universe got here.

My reasons for believing are sound ones. Most of you may not agree but so what? If we all thought the same way this planet would be quite the boring place IMHO.
You said yourself that your beliefs are not justified. Does it seem fair to you that God would require you to believe unjustifiably in something you cannot understand? It doesn't seem fair from my position...

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2008, 06:26:53 PM »
I understand the time thing. That's a start. I understand Christs teachings. That is all that is required.

I got faith in it, there is no changing my mind and I am cool with it.

You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2008, 06:27:43 PM »
No, Poseidon, you claimed that God cannot be described by our perception of logic.  Since we only have out perception of logic to go on, we cannot describe God logically at all.  He is, by your description, 100% beyond our understanding.

Of course, that doesn't prevent you from claiming all sorts of divine inspiration of your own, but hey, that's pathological dishonesty for ya.

Oh and for the record, you putting words in my mouth like a pathetic politicians arguement is just sad. Never misquote me.

I wasn't.  I was just connecting the dots you displayed, and had failed to connect yourself.

The logic that I was refering to as failing was your own, for you cannpt grasp the simple cimcept that I am trying to explain to you.

Oh, I grasp it just fine.  That's not a challenge for me.

Those crystals are a part of the universe and therefore were designed along with the rest of the universe to form that way at a certain point in time. Inanimate objects do not make decisions, they just are.

You are conflating "caused" and "designed".  You're also ignoring fundamentally random actions.  You're also implying that free-will cannot exist (not that this impacts your position here in this thread, but I find it curious that you think this).

We as sentient humans DO make decisions. However, you just wanted to twist the discussion into something that it was not.

Your decision. Nobody made you do it. You did it. God knew you would too.  ;)

Anyone else feeling the Calvinist love?
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Offline Ananukia

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2008, 06:34:17 PM »
We as sentient humans DO make decisions. However, you just wanted to twist the discussion into something that it was not.

Your decision. Nobody made you do it. You did it. God knew you would too.  ;)


Free will is a illusion. There is no such thing.
        Songs that the Hyades shall sing,
    Where flap the tatters of the King,
    Must die unheard in

        Dim Carcosa.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2008, 06:39:08 PM »
Quote
You're also implying that free-will cannot exist

No. Free will absolutely DOES exist because we are in this linear timeline making the decisions that effect our lives.

Just because God (who spans the timeline simultaneously) knows our decisions, it does not negate the fact that we make them in this linear timeline.

It's one of the advantages of being both The Alpha and the Omega. We humans however, are for the moment, always somewhere in between.

You will never understand this as an atheist. I understand it because (and I know I am going to catch a lot of flack for this) I believe that the Holy Spirit is a part of me. I believe this is why I can understand it.

Oh boy. Here we go! LET THE BERATING COMMENCE!  ;D

You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2008, 06:39:14 PM »
I understand the time thing. That's a start. I understand Christs teachings. That is all that is required.
I got faith in it, there is no changing my mind and I am cool with it.
Belief in the God that we cannot understand is required. I think that's unfair, because in every other situation, understanding something is the key to being right about it.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #72 on: October 02, 2008, 06:43:13 PM »
Quote
You're also implying that free-will cannot exist

No. Free will absolutely DOES exist because we are in this linear timeline making the decisions that effect our lives.

Just because God (who spans the timeline simultaneously) knows our decisions, it does not negate the fact that we make them in this linear timeline.

It's one of the advantages of being both The Alpha and the Omega. We humans however, are for the moment, always somewhere in between.

You will never understand this as an atheist. I understand it because (and I know I am going to catch a lot of flack for this) I believe that the Holy Spirit is a part of me. I believe this is why I can understand it.

Oh boy. Here we go! LET THE BERATING COMMENCE!  ;D
I will not berate you. It is not God's knowledge of the timeline that negates free will, it is the fact that the timeline exists ahead of us. If there is a timeline that is set ahead of us that does not change, then all future events are bound to happen, I believe this part. The problem is, if those things are bound to happen then there is nothing we can do about it, because anything we do we were bound to do, thus, no free will.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #73 on: October 02, 2008, 07:25:07 PM »
Quote
because anything we do we were bound to do, thus, no free will.

You make the mistake of trying to see things as God does. We do have free will. We make the decisions. Our timeline is linear. Once a decision is made, it cannot be changed. We think using our will, and we make the choices. We are creatures of the present only. This is how we can do it using our free will. It's a nifty little thing that God gave us so we could have free will IMHO.

Predetermination (from Gods point of view) and free will (Our point of view) exist simultaneiusly. This is not illogical. God knows, but it is us who still makes the choices. Two different perceptions of time. Everything we do is determined by us. Nobody else determined it for us.

It is a relativity thing. Einstien.



Thinking to hard about it is a trap.

Somedays I have doubts about my faith, and everytime I do, I have really bad luck. This concept keeps me thinking though. It blows my mind. Strengthens my faith.

The only things that are truly predetermined by God the Creator are such things as the formation of these beautiful crystals throughout time. However, this whole idea is quite presumptious of me and may be offending said God so I will ask Him for forgiveness in private.

You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2008, 07:30:17 PM »
If God exists in the future, then the future exists to house God.  If the future exists, then it is unchangeable by us.

Thinking too hard about it isn't a trap.  At least, not unless bowing to the intellectually honest action of abandoning your PoSition is what you consider "getting trapped".

Quote
Predetermination (from Gods point of view) and free will (Our point of view) exist simultaneiusly. This is not illogical. God knows, but it is us who still makes the choices. Two different perceptions of time. Everything we do is determined by us. Nobody else determined it for us.


Except for God, who exists in the future and already knows.  This position of yours is illogical, according to everything we know about logic.

And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2008, 07:36:36 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline jetson

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2008, 07:37:45 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.

I "challange" you to use a spell checker!  Ah, never mind...I don't use one either.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2008, 07:44:17 PM »
Once a decision is made, it cannot be changed.
This seems to be the part of your observation of free will that makes it look logical. The problem is, if the timeline already exists before us, then the decision is already made, and was already made before we existed, and Who is the only One to exist before any of us to make that decision?
Quote
Thinking to hard about it is a trap.
I hear this a lot, it is a thought terminator. The only time a person can over-analyze something is when they take into consideration variable which have no effect on the thing they are analyzing. Thinking hard about something is the key to understanding it, just assuming you understand it without thinking about it is the key to being wrong about it and thinking you're right.

Quote
Somedays I have doubts about my faith, and everytime I do, I have really bad luck. This concept keeps me thinking though. It blows my mind. Strengthens my faith.
I usually don't like to delve into other people's psychology because many find it offensive and presumptuous, but to me the most likely cause of this is because you "know" that you are doing something wrong by doubting your faith, therefore you "know" that you should be punished, which can result in you noticing bad things more often and possibly even inflicting punishment on yourself via your subconscious purposely making you behave in a self destructive manner without you noticing.

Quote
The only things that are truly predetermined by God the Creator are such things as the formation of these beautiful crystals throughout time.
According to chaos theory(or chaos fact as I would call it) if we have free will then this is not necessarily true, because a human could have chosen to do something that would have prevented their formation.

Quote
However, this whole idea is quite presumptious of me and may be offending said God so I will ask Him for forgiveness in private.
I'm actually really enjoying this, you seem to be much more "human" than many of the people I have disagreed with on here.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2008, 07:47:07 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.

I understand your desire, as a Christian, to lie without being called on it.  If you either back up your assertion regarding the Holy Spirit, or admit you were lying through your teeth on the subject, then I will STFU.  Fair?
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2008, 09:02:55 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.

I understand your desire, as a Christian, to lie without being called on it.  If you either back up your assertion regarding the Holy Spirit, or admit you were lying through your teeth on the subject, then I will STFU.  Fair?

How is it a lie?  That's what I believe. I believe in God, I believe in Christ and I believe in the Holy spirit.

According to my beliefs, it is the Holy Spirit that guided me to my faith. it is the Holy Spirit that is my earthly connection to God through Christ.

Therefore I am not lying. So please get over it. I might not be the typical "fundy" but I am still a Christian.

You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2008, 09:07:52 PM »
If you cannot back up your bald-faced assertion, then I am forced to conclude that you are lying.
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Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2008, 09:09:38 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.

I understand your desire, as a Christian, to lie without being called on it.  If you either back up your assertion regarding the Holy Spirit, or admit you were lying through your teeth on the subject, then I will STFU.  Fair?
Technically he wasn't lying. To be lying, the person has to know what they are saying isn't true. Regardless of how unprovable his claim may be, he believes it.

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2008, 09:11:13 PM »
Quote
According to chaos theory(or chaos fact as I would call it) if we have free will then this is not necessarily true, because a human could have chosen to do something that would have prevented their formation.


Yes. Everything is in order untill a human does something to mess it up. However, your idea would only work if a human had the opportunity to do so.
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2008, 09:11:41 PM »
Quote
Technically he wasn't lying. To be lying, the person has to know what they are saying isn't true. Regardless of how unprovable his claim may be, he believes it.

I know he does.  What I'm trying to get him to do is either admit that (1) his assertion is totally baseless (abandoning it, in all honesty), or (2) that it's supported (and give the support), or (3) to admit that he's lying (also abandoning it).  These are his only honest options.
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Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2008, 09:14:13 PM »
Quote
And yeah, your holy-spirit thing is a load of crap.  I challenge you to back it up or admit the lie.

I challange you to STFU.

I understand your desire, as a Christian, to lie without being called on it.  If you either back up your assertion regarding the Holy Spirit, or admit you were lying through your teeth on the subject, then I will STFU.  Fair?
Technically he wasn't lying. To be lying, the person has to know what they are saying isn't true. Regardless of how unprovable his claim may be, he believes it.

THANK YOU GOODKAT! Finally! Somebody who sees this as it is. Or in some atheists terms, if I am delusional, how could I be lying?
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.

Offline Goodkat

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #85 on: October 02, 2008, 09:28:01 PM »
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According to chaos theory(or chaos fact as I would call it) if we have free will then this is not necessarily true, because a human could have chosen to do something that would have prevented their formation.


Yes. Everything is in order untill a human does something to mess it up. However, your idea would only work if a human had the opportunity to do so.
Correct, that's why I said "necessarily".

Offline nihilanth

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Re: Giant Crystal Cave (Holy ****)
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2008, 12:16:21 AM »
Quote
Technically he wasn't lying. To be lying, the person has to know what they are saying isn't true. Regardless of how unprovable his claim may be, he believes it.

I know he does.  What I'm trying to get him to do is either admit that (1) his assertion is totally baseless (abandoning it, in all honesty), or (2) that it's supported (and give the support), or (3) to admit that he's lying (also abandoning it).  These are his only honest options.

Honesty according to your definition, or the collective definition of the self appointed important members of this forum.

I reject your definition of what you call honesty. I am being honest. If you cannot see that, as I am sure you cannot see a lot of things, then do not waste your time talking to me.

Are we clear?
You can't prove it either way so you have to make a choice.