Poll

In the long run, what works?  Explain your answer.

I am an atheist, and I believe reasoning in the long run works.
2 (18.2%)
I am an atheist, and I believe violence in the long run works.
0 (0%)
I am an theist, and I believe reasoning in the long run works.
0 (0%)
I am an theist, and I believe violence in the long run works.
0 (0%)
There is no set answer, depends on too many things.
9 (81.8%)

Total Members Voted: 11

Author Topic: Killing the Taliban  (Read 168 times)

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Offline shnozzola

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Killing the Taliban
« on: May 22, 2016, 12:55:18 PM »
          I'm torn over what needs to be done to calm Islamic extremism down.  Today, news is in that leader Mullah Akhtar Mansoor has been killed.  Many will say, probably true, that the next in line will step up indefinitely, hatred for all things non Islamic being what it is.   And drones just prolong the hatred.  Am I naive to think reasoning with these guys in the long run could lead to calm?  Could reasoning have stopped Hitler and Japan?

I look at Japan, and WWII, with the idea that Japan attacked the US, then the US finally used nuclear weapons, and now 70 years later the 2 societies seem to understand and agree with each other.  So does the violence of war work? 

Killing, or reasoning - what in the long run works?  Both? Neither?
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 01:16:13 PM »
They're unwilling to listen to reason, and violence is what they want.  Therefore, isolation.

The reason we're friends with Japan is not because we used violence against us - after all, they used violence against us first.  The reason we're friends with Japan is because we knocked them down, and then helped them get back up, dusted them off, and let them get on with their business; we didn't have to rebuild their society because we left it intact to begin with.
Please let me know if you have problems with something I say, so that we can discuss it amicably.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 01:49:22 PM »
So, if one would argue that Osama et al Boko Haram, ISIS, ISIL, Al Qaeda, Taliban, al-Shabaab, etc. started the violence, and (just saying, I am against the idea) then an area of ISIS does get nuked, as redneck crazyland would like, and then we rebuild it - do you think 70 years from now Islam is calmed down? I say no.  The hatred then is deepened and prolonged, and enemies cite the hypocrisy of the west while ever more planning bomb after bomb, and we answer with bomb after bomb.
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 02:01:53 PM »
I don't think you can reason with extremists and that violence just begets more violence.  I think if there was a scenario where we were in a position to rebuild our efforts would be rejected.  These people want nothing to do with us.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline shnozzola

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 04:29:45 PM »
......  These people want nothing to do with us.

Many of us wish that were true, but:


We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 05:10:51 PM »
They prefer us dead, they would not accept our help.  Especially since our help is usually conditional on their government being somewhat agreeable with us.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2016, 08:46:29 AM »
CNN a while back was to show a program by Fareed Zakaria called "Why They Hate Us" referring to 'extreme Islam' they decided to pull it without notice, but it looks like it is on tonight. I generally like Zakaria but they previewed portions yesterday and I am not sure of the integrity of it. I feel like CNN may have changed it from the original vision.

The problem is the US and West has done so much dirt and has so much blood on its hands in that region there is no way they could trust us or want anything to do with us. Our policies have always been to benefit us at the expense of everyone else.

Killing the Taliban, Al Qada, and ISIS doesnt do anything but add fuel to the fire. Ive said this since before the Iraq war, you cannot kill an ideology or idea with weapons. And you cannot win the war of ideas with piss poor ideas. So, we can only lose.

This is not to let Islam off of the hook. But theyre getting disenfranchised people from western counties to fight with them. We seem to not ask why. The answer is so simple to me.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2016, 08:55:25 AM »
How can you possibly reason with someone who's ideology is that everyone should believe the same thing that they do or else they are infidels?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online One Above All

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2016, 08:57:05 AM »
How can you possibly reason with someone who's ideology is that everyone should believe the same thing that they do or else they are infidels?

We seem to be doing alright with christians nowadays, given their bloody past.
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Religions need books because they don't have gods.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2016, 09:31:12 AM »
How can you possibly reason with someone who's ideology is that everyone should believe the same thing that they do or else they are infidels?

We seem to be doing alright with christians nowadays, given their bloody past.

Good point.  They did wreak a path of destruction for a while.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2016, 10:02:20 AM »
How can you possibly reason with someone who's ideology is that everyone should believe the same thing that they do or else they are infidels?

You cannot reason while simultaneously doing the same thing you complain that they do. We'd have to change our actions, then attempt to reason over a period of time.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2016, 11:08:07 AM »
"Peace is proportional to the number of enemy killed" Total peace comes when they are all dead (or, these days, when they realise that they could all be dead in a few minutes.)  However, (potential) genocide has a bad name and few are willing to have their name associated with it, even as a solution to an intractable problem. We know from the Bible that genocide was seen as good and Godly and created a peace, but people even tend to get upset with God for this pragmatic solution.

The alternative is education that will lead to understanding. This usually takes 3 or 4 generations and event then there is always a small minority who hanker after the "good old days".

The compromise is a mixture of the two - a slaughter of as many combatants as possible and that will unfortunately have to include a few innocents. This has the effect of reducing the base numbers of fanatics and dispiriting to population. Whilst you have them by the balls, you express regret and shake your head and say such things as "Well, of course if the rebels were not fighting, there would be no need for all this... those rebels are wrong you know they are bound to loose... what a waste of life... I don't think any sane person can support them... Here's why they are wrong.... Oh, listen, there's another bomb - got the orphanage this time but those rebels had set up a position there - what bastards, eh?"

On top of this, you try to be the sole supplier of what the people need. They have to be loyal to you to get food/medicine/housing, etc. And you educate everyone under 21, and you fill the airwaves with your propaganda - particularly radio and TV comedy shows that show the enemy and their ideas as hysterically funny idiots. And you execute a few suspected troublemakers as examples and bribe officials.

(This also offers a brilliant opportunity for a few "show trials" of anyone who can be made out to be a leader of some sort.)

Surrounding an area is good. You can starve them out pretty quickly if you go about it well. As they come to surrender, you have the opportunity of shooting any of them who look as if they might have raised a gun in anger or might have failed to get the message. Those who fight to the death are self-selecting candidates for Darwin Awards and their wish to dies as martyrs and heroes should be honoured.

There should be an aid program too - water, food, infrastructure, medicine, housing, employment - this is all expensive but, if you play your cards right, this moeny can be recouped in trade, reparations, etc., later.

As the same time as the above is going on, your best brains are hacking all the phones, websites, and bank accounts of anyone who you suspect of having anything to do with the rebels. Again there will be a few whining innocents whose lives are ruined, but Hey - at least they weren't bombed.

None of this should obscure the prime objective which is to secure the oil/natural resources of the region.

The British had a wonderful method of execution for rebellious Moslems: they would wrap them up in a pigskin and have them trampled to death by an elephant - apparently this put the fear of Allah into them as they would die and not go to Paradise.

I'm not saying that all the above will work every time but the original maxim is pretty solid and it at least cuts down the numbers.

Anything less than this is abnegating the responsibility of government which is to facilitate trade and secure the best for its own people.

A thought to bear in mind is that most of those who are prominent in advocating "Peace and love" end up being killed.

« Last Edit: May 23, 2016, 11:10:28 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online One Above All

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Re: Killing the Taliban
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2016, 11:23:23 AM »
A thought to bear in mind is that most of those who are prominent in advocating "Peace and love" end up being killed.

I'd rather die upholding ideals of peace than live with myself by contributing to and approving the murder of innocents because it's more convenient to me.
My names are many, yet I am One.
-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Religions need books because they don't have gods.