Author Topic: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread  (Read 10630 times)

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Offline OnePerson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2010, 04:19:46 PM »
What I often find is that fundamentalist not only don't know what evolution is, but actively work to avoid acknowledging anything beyond the vague projection that they've assumed evolution to be.  There is also the issue of having to educate every fundamentalist on basic science at the starting gate.

It doesn't annoy me that people don't believe in evolution.  It annoys me that most of these people don't even know what it is.

For example (And this is the most face-palming quote I've ever heard about evolution and science):

"As far as I have heard from scientists, the age of the earth has been determined solely by how long they estimate it must take for evolution to occur (which keeps getting longer and longer) and is not based on factual evidence."

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #88 on: September 14, 2010, 04:30:24 PM »
^^^^Huh?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #89 on: September 14, 2010, 04:37:08 PM »
Where's that quote from? lol
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Offline OnePerson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #90 on: September 14, 2010, 04:51:43 PM »
^Some random gaming forum I was reading.  You can find it if you Google it with quotes.  The guy said quite a lot of hilarious face-palming things about evolution.

"Evolution IS based on the idea that everything is going towards perfection (attainable or not). If it was not going towards perfection then why is the entire hypothesis based on things getting better because the less than average don't survive? If the less than average die off, then the average bar is raised, and so on, until the bar is set at perfect (or continually getting closer)."

Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #91 on: September 14, 2010, 04:53:44 PM »
I particularly despise:
'
"darwinism doesn't explain everything.."

Which of course, the obvious response is that no one says that it does or at least no one except the idiot who lied to you.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline UniversityPastor

Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #92 on: September 14, 2010, 05:26:46 PM »
I am assuming that most of these TOE deniers have been vaccinated against many awful diseases, and if not, have avoided smallpox, etc, because most of the world has been vaccinated......

My last girlfriend was one of the many Christians from a insular home-schooled community that didn't trust "western" medicine, and wouldn't get vaccinated. >:( It was quite disgusting. She was also afraid of "processed" food and anything dairy.



She was really really hot though.
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Online jetson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #93 on: September 14, 2010, 07:21:59 PM »

She was really really hot though.

As a general rule, hot girls deserve special consideration above and beyond their intellectual level, or their delusion.
 ;D ;D ;D

Just kidding girls!  Luv Ya!

Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #94 on: September 14, 2010, 09:12:10 PM »
I think he's terrified that you are right.  The formal debate structure works to prevent any obfuscating tactics because it can be identified and challenged, without the ability to simply ignore it.
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Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2010, 06:55:53 AM »
Now, I realize that my opponent will try to tell you that science no longer makes a distinction between micro and macro evolution and that use of these terms on my part are indicative of ignorance....

Of course!  Science doesn't actually mean what it actually means, and instead means something vague you mean it to be. 

Or in this case, an idiotic falsehood:

Quote
Evolutionary science would like us all to believe that is unnecessary to distinguish between the two because microevolution has been proven and all macroevolution is is a bunch of microevolution at work.

This is what I mean when I say creationist often have no comprehension of what evolution is or how it works.  Based off absolutely nothing, bible student has constructed a position that he seemingly holds that has absolutely nothing to do with any scientific argument or evolution itself as presented.  He dismisses the obvious problem that will be pointed out about his own ignorant assertions about micro vs macro, then later concludes that its all part of a larger conspiracy:

Quote
Well, it is my belief that this assertion made by evolutionary science is mere propaganda employed to deceive the masses into believing that evolution can successfully account for all of the steps in the evolutionary process.

Yes, all biologist throughout the world for the past 150 years have conspired together to fool anyone that supposedly doesn't know anything about science beyond it being a mystical out of your reach tier of knowledge that can be easily manipulated by nefarious people on top!

Oh but he's not really saying what he's really saying:

Quote
I am not charging all of evolutionary science with corruption and bias. This type of behavior is, admittedly, not the norm. However, we need to consider the existence of this behavior when deciding if science is good in terms of whether it is presenting the true facts.

Holy shit, the stupid and dishonesty is mind boggling.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2010, 07:55:54 AM »
Omen,

Thank you.  I could not have said it better without being banned.

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2010, 08:01:03 AM »
Quote from: BibleStudent
CONCLUSION

My opponent contends that Christianity can be compatible with evolution. As a Christian myself, I accuse him of placing God’s Word into a worldview inconsistent with the Bible that he bases his faith on.  He does not need evolution to explain the account of creation the Bible clearly lays out. Reputable Christian scientists have laid out highly plausible explanations for how any concept of evolution can be explained by the Biblical record of creation. If he honestly believes that evolutionary science is “good science,” he must successfully demonstrate, for the purposes of this argument, that it has and is giving some recognition to a Creator as means of explaining the complex occurrence of "speciation"....particularly since the Bible he and I use explains it all very well !

Bolded by me.

I have asked creationists to explain the mechanism created by God that accounts for speciation, as well as the MASSIVE amount of extinction that has apparently occurred.  To date, the only plausible answer are the super powers of God himself.  Game, set, match.  The Bible has nothing beyond supernatural non-sense regarding anything remotely akin to evolution.

I would LOVE to see anything in The Bible that "explains it all very well."

Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2010, 08:19:33 AM »
Omen,

Thank you.  I could not have said it better without being banned.

His lack of reasoning and the delusional projection he's constructing goes back to what I originally predicted:

What I often find is that fundamentalist not only don't know what evolution is, but actively work to avoid acknowledging anything beyond the vague projection that they've assumed evolution to be.  There is also the issue of having to educate every fundamentalist on basic science at the starting gate.

There can't be a reasonable expectation of a discussion, when one person insists on creating a make believe position to respond with or about.  The creationist/fundie has to keep the subject material vague and/or misleading in order to make further follow up arguments, despite everything that exists to the contrary.  He even denies the obvious counter point that his assertions are factually wrong, dismissing by pleading for justification to seemingly no one except himself.  He just needs a slim amount of room to insert his own plausible denial, it doesn't need to be correct just fuzzy enough to satisfy his own ego.

That's what is really frustrating about these discussions, that creationists by far are engaging in an exchange that is mind numbingly below the grade level of the subject itself.  Everyday might as well be bring a crayon day, because the level of discourse from creationist hasn't evolved beyond even a cursory introduction to science for 5th graders.
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Online jetson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2010, 08:26:27 AM »
My eight year old would crush the stuff BS is writing, I guarantee it.  He spent 3 hours sifting through a pile of crushed rocks at a Houston museum, looking for fossils.  He gave me a small bag of his findings and labeled it "20 million year old sea life fossils."


Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #100 on: September 15, 2010, 08:56:25 AM »
My eight year old would crush the stuff BS is writing, I guarantee it.  He spent 3 hours sifting through a pile of crushed rocks at a Houston museum, looking for fossils.  He gave me a small bag of his findings and labeled it "20 million year old sea life fossils."

Hence the need to isolate their children or even their audience from any source that doesn't first come from themselves.  They have to make sure their target demographic is ignorant of basic science in order to make the appeal in the first place.  Hence, they actively do no research, make no attempts to publish in peer review ( they don't even try ), and entirely rely on appeals to laymen through pr firms and publications.

His reference to wells is laughable, who so frequently lies in his own books anyway.  Plus, Wells doesn't even contribute anything new to the discussion, since his book ( icons of evolution ) is nothing but a wholesale repeat of every single creationist canard out there complete with the same misinformation.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline UniversityPastor

Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #101 on: September 15, 2010, 10:09:41 AM »
Okay guys am I crazy?

I'm still not sure if this is an opening argument, or just a slightly more annoyed rebuttal to my opening argument.

I think it's his opening argument, but why is it organized into an A, and a B1, B2, B3, and B4? why are A and B1 pretty much exactly what I said only with "Nut Uh!" attached?

Is this just BS's first foray into an organized debate and he now believes they are all organized and enumerated the same way as my opening arguments?

I'm going to respond later today... Will someone just let me know if I missed something?
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Online jetson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #102 on: September 15, 2010, 11:29:11 AM »
Okay guys am I crazy?

I'm still not sure if this is an opening argument, or just a slightly more annoyed rebuttal to my opening argument.

I think it's his opening argument, but why is it organized into an A, and a B1, B2, B3, and B4? why are A and B1 pretty much exactly what I said only with "Nut Uh!" attached?

Is this just BS's first foray into an organized debate and he now believes they are all organized and enumerated the same way as my opening arguments?

I'm going to respond later today... Will someone just let me know if I missed something?

Welcome to the world of BS.  Pun intended.

Sorry, but I have had a bit of a problem with BS' approach in other threads, and this is no surprise to me at all.  What's surprising to me is the tolerance for his style.  I think it is some bizarre black hole of some sort, where BS has managed to convince some forum members that he is truly trying to learn from others, or is interested in two way discussions.

I'll jump on board as soon as we convert him to atheism!

Offline Omen

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #103 on: September 15, 2010, 11:34:59 AM »
If you try to educate him on basic science and biology, he'll assert what he's already concluded: That you're part of or fooled by the larger atheist evolutionary conspiracy.  He can't afford to have his blatant lie corrected.

There is nothing you can do beyond that
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Offline blue

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #104 on: September 15, 2010, 12:21:10 PM »
Sorry, but I have had a bit of a problem with BS' approach in other threads, and this is no surprise to me at all.  What's surprising to me is the tolerance for his style.  I think it is some bizarre black hole of some sort, where BS has managed to convince some forum members that he is truly trying to learn from others, or is interested in two way discussions.

I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, but he's hopeless. And either a liar or an amoral monster, take your pic. I predict he'll bail on this debate the second he's rebutted with facts and logic.

Edit to take out off topic comments.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 07:52:18 PM by blue »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #105 on: September 15, 2010, 02:59:29 PM »

She was really really hot though.

As a general rule, hot girls deserve special consideration above and beyond their intellectual level, or their delusion.
 ;D ;D ;D

Just kidding girls!  Luv Ya!



Ya know what they say about those kinda girls; "crazy in the head, crazy in the bed"....
Of course for guys it is more like "crazy in the head, collected guns, saw red, now resides in a maximum security correctional facility run by the fed"!

This does not hold for all you cool crazy guys on this site. Luv ya! ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Operator_020

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #106 on: September 15, 2010, 07:50:47 PM »
Let me just take the opportunity to remind everyone this is a thread for commentary on the debate, not to comment on the character of the debaters.  Discussion of the points made in the debate are encouraged.  Please keep it civil.  Thanks.

020
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Online jetson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #107 on: September 15, 2010, 10:30:27 PM »
Fair enough, who needs character attacks when you've got so much else to chew on.

Quote from: BibleStudent
Why is it that “pure” creation science is not given a fair shake by the scientific community?

Number 1, it's not science, it's absolute, "pure" crap.  It doesn't even approach science.  It ALWAYS leaves us wondering about the mechanism, and the mechanism always ends up at a god.  NOT SCIENCE, MYTHOLOGY.  Period.

Number 2, if it was science, it would most definitely get it's fair shake.  In fact, there are certainly plenty of scientists who would kill to debunk evolution even accidentally, just for the fame and fortune of such a breakthrough!

Number 3, Where is the science, exactly?  Where is the science that you so adamantly claim is not being considered?  WHERE IS IT?  If there were ANY science at all, there would be PLENTY of interested parties to take a look at it and consider its merits.

Quote from: BibleStudent
Why is it, by and large, disregarded as worthy of hypotheticals in light of inability to provide solid evidence for speciation?

If I had to guess, I would think he is asking why creation science hypotheses are disregarded in light of the ToE's inability to provide solid evidence for speciation?  Shoot, who knows what this question was attempting to get at.

If my guess is correct, I would just make a couple of points:

1. Hypotheses are always welcome, as long as they have some basis to begin applying the scientific method against, in order to begin forming a potential theory.  Creation science has no such thing, and is thus disregarded wholly by actual scientists (God's scientists certainly disagree, of course.)

2. There is more solid and irrefutable evidence for speciation than is even necessary to completely take it as scientific fact.  That you ignore it for personal reasons is the more serious problem here.  When speciation occurs in a laboratory, in front of everyone, and is repeatable by anyone with a lab coat and a tongue full of bacteria, there's little reason to even discuss the evidence with people who think like you.  Perhaps if you stand on a stool or a ladder and re-read this reply, it won't go completely over your head?


Quote from: BibleStudent
Why is evolutionary archaeology not more interested in demonstrating that the fossil record be used to establish that speciation might be due to Intelligent Design?

Intelligent Design is Creationism.  These two things are one in the same, this has been proven in a court of law, when it's adherents were caught red-handed.  I won't link to the case because I'm certain that BS is going to separate ID from Creation despite this little fact.

The honest, and hard-working scientists from all different fields have been working with the theory as it was posited and written about by Darwin.  Even though we have learned so much more than Darwin even could have imagined, we know that Darwin was right on target.  There is literally NO REASON for any credible scientist to jump into some rabbit hole in search of some designer, because there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that points in that direction.  None.  Zip.  Nada.  Zero.

If such evidence existed, we would have competing theories, now wouldn't we?  Oh, no?  We wouldn't...because...because...the evil scientists couldn't stand to have all of their hard work flushed down the toilet by A MYTHICAL MAGICAL GOD...sob...sob...sob...

Creationism is crap.  It's a fairy tale, connected to another fairy tale, written before humans realized they were whirling through a universe on a tiny planet in the middle of fucking nowhere.  If God were real, we might be looking into whether this god created stuff, or kicked off life, or caused evolution, or whatever.  But God isn't even close to real, so we don't consider it worthy of much time and effort when we have real work to do (sorry UP, all Gods are imaginary)  ;D

Offline Timo

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #108 on: September 16, 2010, 02:54:07 AM »
UP, great response.  I particularly liked this bit:

Now let me ask you a question:

If we are afraid to follow science wherever it leads us, and trust that the truth will eventually lead us back to Christianity. Then do we really believe Christianity to begin with? Why should a Christian believer ever be afraid to let someone follow the evidence without biblical help?
Nah son...

Offline Eddy Swirl

Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #109 on: September 16, 2010, 04:25:12 AM »
How do you make the bell *ding* on a forum thread, signalling times up, next speaker?

No offence UP, it just seems that you're drowning him.
You read my sig again, didn't you...

Online jetson

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #110 on: September 16, 2010, 06:46:09 AM »
Hmmm...the last replies from UP give me hope.  It seems entirely possible that UP could be convinced that The Bible is a collection of writings from unknown individuals, written to various audiences, each for various reasons, over a long period of time, and some of those writings were stapled together and called the New Testament.

That's a very easy thing to see if you look at the actual evidence.

On evolution, UP has a decent grasp of the ToE, which is far beyond what you can expect from 99% of the creationists out there.  So how much of a leap would it be for UP to drop God?

We watch one Christian lay out decent arguments that show evolution to be as factual and useful as it should be, while we watch another Christian argue that speciation doesn't occur.  It's almost entertainment!

Offline UniversityPastor

Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #111 on: September 16, 2010, 11:51:12 AM »
How do you make the bell *ding* on a forum thread, signalling times up, next speaker?

No offence UP, it just seems that you're drowning him.

Yeah I understand that sentiment. That's why I split it up into 3 posts.

BS if you're out there. If you want to just take 1 of those 3 sections to respond to now, we can cover that, and then come back around if you like. That would probably be easier.

However in my defense. the ground should be much smaller when BS responds. His A had no substance to it, and his Bs are almost totally irrelevant, so once we get past commentary on those, they'll be done with and we'll only have on case to discuss
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 11:53:56 AM by UniversityPastor »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #112 on: September 16, 2010, 12:03:55 PM »
UP, wasn't sure if you knew but you can see the last time anyone was on the forum by clicking on their profile icon under their name on a post of theirs.  I've used it to gauge how sincere anyone is in responding.
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Offline generousgeorge

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #113 on: September 16, 2010, 12:15:07 PM »
Bible student states... "Reputable Christian Scientists"   Thats like the joke we used to have about the chance of there being "Intelligent Officers" in the Army Intelligence Corp.   &)

Christian Scientist is just another name for "Christian Apologetic"    They sure resist losing their Binkies, these religious folks.

Do "Christian Scientists" use faith as an ingredient when they use the "Scientific Method" in their "experiments to discredit Evolution and the evil "Darwinists"?

Oh wait, experiments are objective searches for the truth, oh yeah Christian Scientist would be good for that. But they may be a tad prejudice if their experiment results show a lack of "faith" on their part which would cause them to lose their place in line for Paradise.  :o Course I know all Reputable Christian Scientists would disavow their "faith" if their objective experimental results showed evolution to be correct.  RIGHT??  :P

Offline UniversityPastor

Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #114 on: September 16, 2010, 12:23:52 PM »
UP, wasn't sure if you knew but you can see the last time anyone was on the forum by clicking on their profile icon under their name on a post of theirs.  I've used it to gauge how sincere anyone is in responding.

I'm afraid I'm not picking up what you're putting down.

Pretend like you're talking to a theist...Explain it real slow...
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolution: Christian on Christian action Commentary Thread
« Reply #115 on: September 16, 2010, 12:46:44 PM »
I just clicked on your name, UP, and got a page with this at the top:

Quote
  Summary - UniversityPastor  Picture/Text
Name:  UniversityPastor
Posts:  115 (8.846 per day)
Position:  Undergraduate
Date Registered:  September 03, 2010, 12:15:55 PM
Last Active:  2 minutes ago

...(other stuff)


That's what velkyn is talking about.
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