None of that addresses the point. You have to get them to explain WHY they say something. It's not just a matter that they back up their assertions. It's also so that when they try to retract, you can use their own explanations against them. That's why he's not responding to me. Because he knows that his point is weak and any elaboration he does is just digging his own grave. If you go too fast, you may score a point with the choir, but you're letting him off easy. I prefer to draw out the quotable line from their own explanation and then beat their argument to death with it. That's why I started this thread, so you jumping ahead of me is essentially derailment. The formal debates section was just dissolved; otherwise, I'd have put this thread in there.