Author Topic: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?  (Read 1556 times)

Willie, Aaron123 and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline frank callaway

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 392
  • Darwins +12/-35
  • Gender: Male
  • it's a bird, it's a shark... you're fucked
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #87 on: February 09, 2015, 01:16:55 PM »
Genome Pioneer Venter Says ‘We’re Now in Charge of Our Own Evolution’

http://mobile.blogs.wsj.com/cio/2015/02/03/the-morning-download-genome-pioneer-venter-says-were-now-in-charge-of-our-own-evolution/

isn't evolution an unguided process...?  well then, we could soon be done evolving and on to something completely different.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline Fiji

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1500
  • Darwins +111/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #88 on: February 09, 2015, 03:59:03 PM »
Spot on, actually, Frank.
Evolution through natural selection is the name of the game. So, yes, if we start mucking around with our own genome, it will no longer be evolution. Though this wouldn't be a first. Every single cultivated crop[1], every single domesticated animal[2] is an example of something other than evolution, namely selective breeding.

But I recon "now in charge of something that is not evolution but not quite selective breeding" wasn't quite as catchy a title.

Now, that said, there are plenty of scifi stories where an intelligent race genetically modifies itself into extinction. May you live in interresting times, what!
 1. Banana anyone? Ray, you look a bit peckish, fancy a banana? It fits in your mouth, you know.
 2. Yes, even chihuahuas or those straight-out-of-a-horror-movie peruvian nude dogs
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5691
  • Darwins +670/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #89 on: February 10, 2015, 11:41:45 AM »
Thank you for trying to explain it. But, bacteria only give rise to bacteria. You are saying that somewhere down the line, a brand new species will evolve from bacteria, yet bacteria will still exist.
That's exactly what I'm saying.  Evolutionary changes take time to propagate through a species, for one thing.  It's been how many thousands of years since humans evolved to be able to drink milk and eat wheat?  And yet, we still run across people today who are lactose and gluten intolerant.  For another, unless the new organism competes with the old for the same ecological niche, there's no reason that it would end up replacing the old to begin with.

Quote from: skeptic54768
I just find it hard to believe. Nothing but bacteria and then all of a sudden millions of years later we have creatures swimming in the sea and flying through the air? Just sounds way too unbelievable to me. It seems like we should still have only bacteria after millions of years.
It's not "all of a sudden", as in, one moment you have just bacteria, the next you have birds and fish.  Assuming you had just bacteria, it might be millions of years before you got multicellular bacteria, more millions of years before you had sea creatures, even more millions of years before you had land creatures, and still more before you had flying creatures.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Unrelated question, is it possible for a human to gain a genetic mutation that allows him to lift up cars with ease?
I have no idea.  I suppose it's possible, but it would be very unlikely since it would involve changes to the muscles (to produce the physical power needed to lift a car), the bones (to support this massive increase in physical power), and the ligaments (to keep the muscles attached to the bones), at the very least.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 7633
  • Darwins +1059/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #90 on: February 10, 2015, 05:48:42 PM »
It's hard to believe that water carved the Grand Canyon, but it did. Like evolution, all you need is time.

Time. Lots and lots of time.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline OccamsRazor

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 146
  • Darwins +11/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #91 on: February 11, 2015, 09:13:37 PM »
Time. Lots and lots of time.

Or 40 days and 40 nights, if you believe the OT. lol
"Oh wearisome condition of humanity!
Born under one law, to another bound;
Vainly begot, and yet forbidden vanity;
Created sick, commanded to be sound."
Richard Fulke Greville

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 13135
  • Darwins +773/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #92 on: February 12, 2015, 08:51:47 AM »
But, bacteria only give rise to bacteria.

Wolf, chihuahua. Remember what I said about living things not being discreet, standard models?  They include a range of traits.  We are talking about the edges of the range.


then all of a sudden millions of years later

Do you see what you did right there?  "All of a sudden" followed by "millions of years later."  If it is millions of years later, it is not sudden.  And during those millions of years the "species" is not static.  Lots of little changes - micro evolutions, to use a term you would like - add up.  It is like milk going bad.  It isn't sudden and you cannot pinpoint the exact moment it happens.

Just sounds way too unbelievable to me.

So what?  When I first heard how babies are made I thought it was ridiculous and thoroughly unbelievable. 

It seems like we should still have only bacteria after millions of years.

We still have bacteria.  But we also have other things.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 7633
  • Darwins +1059/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #93 on: February 12, 2015, 06:00:51 PM »
I just wrote up a long, detailed step by step explanation of evolution. But the computer ate it.

And I realized that it won't make any difference to skeptic and folks like him anyway. I have a young Russian friend who is very Christian. She is quite intelligent, funny, ambitious--and she thinks the theory of evolution is a stupid explanation compared to god magically made everything. Nothing you can say to her will change her mind. Sigh.

Every baby born is similar, yet different from the parents. If skeptic can accept that one microscopic sperm cell and one microscopic egg cell can produce a similar, yet different human baby, (suddenly, after nine months :o) he should be able to accept that millions of years of environmental selection pressure could produce all kinds of variation in life forms.[1]

If he cannot accept that, all the evidence in the world will not be enough.
 1. How come even though there are these so-called "babies", we keep on seeing sperm and egg cells? Whassup with that?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3125
  • Darwins +68/-489
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #94 on: February 13, 2015, 01:48:06 AM »


Every baby born is similar, yet different from the parents. If skeptic can accept that one microscopic sperm cell and one microscopic egg cell can produce a similar, yet different human baby, (suddenly, after nine months :o) he should be able to accept that millions of years of environmental selection pressure could produce all kinds of variation in life forms.[1]

If he cannot accept that, all the evidence in the world will not be enough.
 1. How come even though there are these so-called "babies", we keep on seeing sperm and egg cells? Whassup with that?

That has been my problem whenever I think about it or read about it. A sperm cell has human DNA in it, so it's not surprising that human DNA can be used to build a human in 9 months. But the first forms of life (cells), according to scientists, did not have human DNA in them. When and how did human DNA start to come about? How did bones evolve?

I never saw a good explanation and that is why I am still up in the air about the theory.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 7633
  • Darwins +1059/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #95 on: February 13, 2015, 02:17:36 AM »
You can find explanations for all of those things online, skeptic, even on websites for kids where things are explained really step by step. Or you can take a free online course in evolutionary biology. Or you can get books from the library that explain it.

The fact is, you want us here to keep looking up stuff and writing up explanations for you, that you will still say do not make sense to you. We will do the research for you and explain how bones evolved. And you will say, but what about skin? Or fur? Or the eye? And we will do the research and write up another explanation. And you will say, but what about fingernails and saliva and the small intestine?

Why should we keep spending time doing that? I have decided not to. What would be the point? You go look it up yourself, and on science sites, not religious ones.

Then come explain to us how scientists think bones evolved.

Meanwhile, you can give us a rudimentary explanation of how god made bones, or why god decided to make it seem as though everything evolved. Why god left all those fossils lying around in the separate layers so you never get a dog fossil next to a dino, or a trilobite fossil next to a kangaroo. How the DNA record matches the fossil record so exactly and how geology, biogeography and climate science match up exactly as well. And, most importantly, how it is that applications of evolution (if it is so incomprehensively wrong and "stupid") have, over the past 150 years, constantly led to more accurate discoveries-- including improved crops, medical advances like antibiotics and vaccines, and better ways to solve crimes.

If evolution is wrong, how does it keep getting things right?

That is what needs explaining, not how bones evolved. We know how bones evolved. We don't know why god put them inside all the right rocks to trick us into thinking such a ludicrous thing as evolution really happened.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 13135
  • Darwins +773/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #96 on: February 13, 2015, 08:49:51 AM »
That has been my problem whenever I think about it or read about it. A sperm cell has human DNA in it,

Yes, that is your problem.  Stop thinking in such discreet terms.  The sperm has DNA. The dna itself is not inherently human dna.  It is just dna.  The content and arrangement of th dna makes a human.  But if you shift the dna content and arrangement around enough, it will make something else. 

Like, an orangutan or a bonobo. They have the same dna with very slight differences in content and arrangement. 

I never saw a good explanation and that is why I am still up in the air about the theory.

I could be wrong, but I really don't think that is why you are still up in the air.  I also suspect you are not all that up in the air.


 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 7633
  • Darwins +1059/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #97 on: February 13, 2015, 11:35:29 AM »
Like I said, he could take a free online course and learn all he wants, instead of asking us one question at a time.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Defiance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1120
  • Darwins +42/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #98 on: Yesterday at 06:24:34 PM »
Alright.

Skep, if you want, you can ask me one question at a time. This rejection of ToE don't fly with me.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Offline shnozzola

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2134
  • Darwins +128/-2
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #99 on: Yesterday at 07:15:15 PM »
Here a good proof of evolution, IMO.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/125-explore/shared-genes

Quote
A Human and a grain of rice may not, at first glance, look like cousins. And yet we share a quarter of our genes with that fine plant. The genes we share with rice—or rhinos or reef coral—are among the most striking signs of our common heritage. All animals, plants, and fungi share an ancestor that lived about 1.6 billion years ago.
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
"Why can't girls have dinosaur shoes?"

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3125
  • Darwins +68/-489
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #100 on: Yesterday at 10:55:29 PM »
Alright.

Skep, if you want, you can ask me one question at a time. This rejection of ToE don't fly with me.

I said that I am up in the air about the theory. It could be true, but it's not "set in stone" in my opinion yet.

One question I will ask is, "When, how, why, and from what did bones start to evolve?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3125
  • Darwins +68/-489
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #101 on: Yesterday at 10:57:10 PM »
Here a good proof of evolution, IMO.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/125-explore/shared-genes

Quote
A Human and a grain of rice may not, at first glance, look like cousins. And yet we share a quarter of our genes with that fine plant. The genes we share with rice—or rhinos or reef coral—are among the most striking signs of our common heritage. All animals, plants, and fungi share an ancestor that lived about 1.6 billion years ago.

That is all well and good, but it COULD also indicate a common designer. If we were created by God, it would make sense that we are all related to each other in some way, shape, or form.

So, that can't be used as a "set in stone" proof.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3125
  • Darwins +68/-489
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #102 on: Yesterday at 11:01:52 PM »


Yes, that is your problem.  Stop thinking in such discreet terms.  The sperm has DNA. The dna itself is not inherently human dna.  It is just dna.  The content and arrangement of th dna makes a human.  But if you shift the dna content and arrangement around enough, it will make something else. 

Like, an orangutan or a bonobo. They have the same dna with very slight differences in content and arrangement. 


That makes sense that the DNA will make different things. That is why I believe DNA is a code that was encoded by an intelligent disembodied eternal mind.

You arrange the DNA code a certain way and you get a bonobo. But, why does that particular arrangement of DNA give you a bonobo and nothing else? because it's a code for bonobo. Just like we have codes for human, codes for mice, codes for fish, etc. etc. etc. if it was all random, these arrangments would give us a bonobo sometimes, a human other times, a mice at other times. It wouldn't be the same animal each time.

What is a reasonable explanation for how these codes for each creature came about naturally with no mind needed?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3125
  • Darwins +68/-489
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #103 on: Yesterday at 11:07:59 PM »


Meanwhile, you can give us a rudimentary explanation of how god made bones, or why god decided to make it seem as though everything evolved. Why god left all those fossils lying around in the separate layers so you never get a dog fossil next to a dino, or a trilobite fossil next to a kangaroo. How the DNA record matches the fossil record so exactly and how geology, biogeography and climate science match up exactly as well. And, most importantly, how it is that applications of evolution (if it is so incomprehensively wrong and "stupid") have, over the past 150 years, constantly led to more accurate discoveries-- including improved crops, medical advances like antibiotics and vaccines, and better ways to solve crimes.


I don't want to turn this into a vaccination thread, but think about how some people are freaking out if other people don't get vaccinated. This is indirectly admitting that vaccines do not work. If they did work, nobody would care if some people aren't getting the vaccine because the ones who DO get the vaccine will never catch the disease anyway. So, there should be no reason to say, "I don't want my child getting a disease because you refused to vaccinate your child." If the vaccines worked, you would say, "My child was vaccinated, so that means your child can't give it to them."

Just a little tidbit of knowledge.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5691
  • Darwins +670/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #104 on: Today at 12:09:42 AM »
I don't want to turn this into a vaccination thread, but think about how some people are freaking out if other people don't get vaccinated. This is indirectly admitting that vaccines do not work.
Not even slightly.

Quote from: skeptic54768
If they did work, nobody would care if some people aren't getting the vaccine because the ones who DO get the vaccine will never catch the disease anyway. So, there should be no reason to say, "I don't want my child getting a disease because you refused to vaccinate your child." If the vaccines worked, you would say, "My child was vaccinated, so that means your child can't give it to them."
The reason people get upset when people refuse to get vaccines is because this threatens the herd immunity for people who can't get them, for whatever reason.  Nobody who actually knows the first thing about vaccines will ever say that their child who's been vaccinated is at risk from another child who isn't.  I don't know where you got this idea from, but it's flat-out wrong.

Also, I don't know about you, but if I knew a parent was refusing a vaccination for their child, basic empathy would prompt me to make a big deal about it.  Because that parent is putting their child's life at risk almost as surely as if they let said child play in the street without supervision.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Just a little tidbit of knowledge.
I'm trying really hard not to be rude here, but this 'knowledge' of yours was almost as far off base as, say, saying that carbon monoxide is safe to breathe.  Did you get it from the anti-vax crowd or something?  I simply can't imagine that you got it from any reputable source that knows anything about vaccinations.

That makes sense that the DNA will make different things. That is why I believe DNA is a code that was encoded by an intelligent disembodied eternal mind.
Why the "disembodied eternal" part?

Quote from: skeptic54768
You arrange the DNA code a certain way and you get a bonobo. But, why does that particular arrangement of DNA give you a bonobo and nothing else? because it's a code for bonobo. Just like we have codes for human, codes for mice, codes for fish, etc. etc. etc. if it was all random, these arrangments would give us a bonobo sometimes, a human other times, a mice at other times. It wouldn't be the same animal each time.
Why would you come to the conclusion that since DNA doesn't produce random organisms, it was designed? 

Quote from: skeptic54768
What is a reasonable explanation for how these codes for each creature came about naturally with no mind needed?
You need to stop and think about why you're assuming that a mind is responsible for DNA.  You especially need to think about why you're assuming that it's disembodied and eternal.  A disembodied mind would have no reason to embody living beings (seriously, think it through; it's about as rational as a human making something inside-out); an eternal mind would have no reason to actually do anything.  So all you have left is "intelligent mind", but while that's possible, you have the problem of explaining how that mind came about without DNA or something like it to produce the support structure it needs to exist.  Claiming that it's 'disembodied' and 'eternal' are nothing more than ways to try to avoid explaining where it is and what made it.

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1924
  • Darwins +139/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #105 on: Today at 12:23:30 AM »
Here a good proof of evolution, IMO.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2013/07/125-explore/shared-genes

Quote
A Human and a grain of rice may not, at first glance, look like cousins. And yet we share a quarter of our genes with that fine plant. The genes we share with rice—or rhinos or reef coral—are among the most striking signs of our common heritage. All animals, plants, and fungi share an ancestor that lived about 1.6 billion years ago.

That is all well and good, but it COULD also indicate a common designer. If we were created by God, it would make sense that we are all related to each other in some way, shape, or form.

So, that can't be used as a "set in stone" proof.

There is a huge problem if you assume that a god designed each animal with its own DNA. Humans are a hybrid species with small pieces of DNA from interbreeding over thirty thousand years ago with more primitive human species. (These can be dated by DNA change from generation to generation.) So if you think that a god designed humans six thousand years ago, then humans have small pieces of DNA which never existed in any human and were never used except in DNA in bones in the ground.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Defiance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1120
  • Darwins +42/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #106 on: Today at 09:41:23 AM »
Alright.

Skep, if you want, you can ask me one question at a time. This rejection of ToE don't fly with me.

I said that I am up in the air about the theory. It could be true, but it's not "set in stone" in my opinion yet.

One question I will ask is, "When, how, why, and from what did bones start to evolve?"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3237026/

So, as you know, hopefully, Evolution occurs not be need, but by death of the least successful and the reproduction of the more successful (relative to their environment). Reference back to my earlier posts if you need to recall how these differences in success arise.

Quote
The earliest mineralized structures in the vertebrate lineage were tooth-like structures, odontodes.

Makes sense, and those that had even the tiniest accidental pieces of "hardened" mineral had some advantage in some function they performed. Natural selection!!

Fast forward, collagen started to appear, simply by the processes of eliminating those who didn't have this advantage.

Fast forward, and this is a VERY long time, and you have more prominent endo skeletons.

Interesting diagram:



See how the bones are a bit similar in order? That's called a homologous structure, serving as one of the best evidences for Evolution. These structures are produced by divergent evolution.

Unfortunately, I don't know when the first bones appeared. If anyone has that, please add that.

I think I've answered all your questions but "when". Regardless, the more important ones are answered and you may research it yourself.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Offline Defiance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1120
  • Darwins +42/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Can't be mad at something that doesn't exist.
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #107 on: Today at 10:10:09 AM »
That makes sense that the DNA will make different things. That is why I believe DNA is a code that was encoded by an intelligent disembodied eternal mind.

You arrange the DNA code a certain way and you get a bonobo. But, why does that particular arrangement of DNA give you a bonobo and nothing else? because it's a code for bonobo. Just like we have codes for human, codes for mice, codes for fish, etc. etc. etc. if it was all random, these arrangments would give us a bonobo sometimes, a human other times, a mice at other times. It wouldn't be the same animal each time.

What is a reasonable explanation for how these codes for each creature came about naturally with no mind needed?

Sigh. Never mind, I asked for it.

Ever heard of the Miller Urey experiment? No you haven't.

In this experiment, scientists simulated the environment of early Earth, with certain atmospheric conditions with certain amounts of gases that best fit the time period. And Skep, this is way back when... when asteroids had just stopped pestering Earth and allowed stuff to happen without it getting torn up in a few minutes. 4,000,000,000 years ago.

Now, in this experiment, electric sparks provided the alternative to lightning (which there was plenty of). After putting those gases in the apparatus, sparks were applied and guess what they found? More than 20 types of amino acids (the stuff and makes proteins).

But wait Defiance, that's not DNA!

Right, but that's what happened with DNA or RNA as well. There are a couple of compelling theories. The ones I am familiar with:

a) Simple molecules washed up on beaches, with the hot sand providing free energy for the endothermic reactions to take place. Tides brought water in and out, and every time it moved in, new molecules were added to the polymer line synthesized by the energy provided by the sands/hot rocks.

b) Lightning, again, synthesized simple molecules in the atmosphere, into longer chains. These then rained down.
Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

source: http://www.jokes4us.com/miscellaneousjokes/schooljokes/physicsjokes.html

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 13135
  • Darwins +773/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #108 on: Today at 10:42:44 PM »
Skep,

Let me start off, before rebutting your post, with two important things.  First, surprisingly, I like you.  It is weird, but I do.  Second, I believe you are not dumb.  And that is something, coming from me. 

I said that I am up in the air about the theory. It could be true, but it's not "set in stone" in my opinion yet.

But dude, let us be honest here: you definitely do not want it to be true. Because if it is true, you have to recalibrate and reformulate your concept of xianity.  And, you have learned enough - at my behest - to acknowledge the possibility of it.  You are now fighting to find the chinks in the armor.  Any ridiculous opportunity to find reason to doubt.  That is not rationality, my friend. 

One question I will ask is, "When, how, why, and from what did bones start to evolve?"

Why such a specific question? Is it because this is a question you know is difficult (if not impossible) to answer? It gives you an opportunity to cleave to your Iron Age religious beliefs?  There is a good Less Wrong about how Orthodox Jews are encouraged to question their faith[1].  But the only questions they are allowed to ask, are questions they already know the answers to.  It seems to me, that you do the inverse.  You only ask the questions of science which you know it cannot yet answer.  Because those questions are the ones that permit your particular beliefs.

What do you think?


Edit: added link
 1. http://lesswrong.com/lw/jy/avoiding_your_beliefs_real_weak_points/
« Last Edit: Today at 10:50:36 PM by screwtape »
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 13135
  • Darwins +773/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Does evolution disprove (bible) god?
« Reply #109 on: Today at 11:09:09 PM »
That makes sense that the DNA will make different things. That is why I believe DNA is a code that was encoded by an intelligent disembodied eternal mind.

1. Not the point.  I am trying to help you understand evolution.  I am spending time and effort to educate you. For free.  You are trying to resist it. Cut. It. Out. 

2. No.

2a. If we were the work of a god, there would be no reason at all for it to make sense.  We could be non-biological, animated granite, imbued  with souls.  There is no reason at all for a god to make us like all the other animals.  There would be no necessity for us to follow natural laws.  That we function exactly like all other life on earth is strong evidence against a supernatural creator.

2b. To echo Jaime, disembodied and eternal do not figure in as requirements, in any event. In fact, it would make more sense for the hypothetical designer to be mortal and physical, like every other living thing.  As an engineer I need to be efficient.  That means not reinventing th wheel.  I steal designs and ideas anywhere I can.  But I am a mere mortal.  A God does not have the same needs and limitations as I do.

You arrange the DNA code a certain way and you get a bonobo. But, why does that particular arrangement of DNA give you a bonobo and nothing else?

Because it does.   There is no deeper implication. It is like asking why two hydrogens and an oxygen give you water.  That is just what it is. 


if it was all random, these arrangments would give us a bonobo sometimes, a human other times, a mice at other times. It wouldn't be the same animal each time.

I don't even pretend to get what you are saying here.  Who is saying it is "all random", whatever that means? 

What is a reasonable explanation for how these codes for each creature came about naturally with no mind needed?

What is the reasonable explanation that the path of a river came about naturally with no mind needed?  Answer that, and you answer your own question. 


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.