Author Topic: Calling all WWGHA Elders!  (Read 186 times)

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Offline BornAgainAtheist

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Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« on: July 16, 2014, 10:29:02 AM »
I've been living skeptically for almost two years now.  I have studied, learned logic, and been able to reason with the most dogmatic theists.  I have shed the skin of my christian indoctrination as a child.  But now there's this.  I'd appreciate if some of the WWGHA "Elders" would take a peak at this video and tell me how this works.  Skip ahead to minute marker 6:30 to see the part that I can not seem to rationalize.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1o_YuLoB-oI&feature=kp
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2014, 10:34:12 AM »
Stretch your arm out in front of you. Make sure your shoulder is parallel to your body. Is that your limit of stretching your arm outward? No, it is not. Your shoulder can still bend in a way that will give you a few more centimeters. Now stand up. Try pulling your leg inward/upward without bending it. Voila.
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Offline BornAgainAtheist

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2014, 10:41:17 AM »
OAA.  Did you watch the video from the 6:30 mark onward?  The mans legs are growing.  He is not pushing or pulling.  His legs are growing on their own.  I'm looking at the video.  You can see them suck back up into his pants legs. 
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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2014, 10:50:48 AM »
The first time I went to Vegas I saw my favorite magic act: Penn and Teller.  They did some really great tricks.  The last one was where they shot bullets at each other and both caught the bullet in their mouths.  The bullets and the shells had all been marked and they had to shoot through glass plates, which shattered.  I have no idea how they did it.

The first "trick" they did in the show was to demonstrate the fact that magic does not exist. They showed exactly how it was done.  Their point being, that they do not do magic.  They trick you.  And though I cannot explain the bullet trick, I know it was not magic.  It was a trick.

So is the growing leg trick.  It is a trick, but done with the trappings of religion.  Magic is not real.

https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=growing+leg+trick&gbv=2&oq=growing+leg+trick&gs_l=heirloom-hp.3..0i22i30.1497.4196.0.4508.17.14.0.3.3.0.297.1635.2j8j2.12.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-hp..2.15.1680.Auc2aelYGas
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 10:57:59 AM »
OAA.  Did you watch the video from the 6:30 mark onward?  The mans legs are growing.  He is not pushing or pulling.  His legs are growing on their own.  I'm looking at the video.  You can see them suck back up into his pants legs. 

I watched a little more. You can see that the "ankles" are abnormally bent downward. My guess? The man whose "legs" are "growing" doesn't have any, or at least they're not all there. Ask him to do this without the pants, or at least without the socks, and without moving the camera all over the place, if you don't believe me.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2014, 12:54:32 PM »
I call crap.  Somebody doing a "magic" trick which is probably not all that magical. Take note of what you don't see:

(1) the man stand up. Yes, he may have prosthetics on for all we know -- show me actual bare legs that grow and then maybe I will give him the time of day,
(2) his position in the chair while his legs supposedly grow/shrink, and
(3) a child ignoring the adults because the toy truck is more interesting. That last one is the biggest red flag. Who is the easiest of all to impress with tricks? Children. If children aren't oooing and aawwwing over it, trust me, it's not worth the cost of a ticket.

Ever see David Blaine levitate himself?



Ever see Blaine's trick explained? It's a very old magician's trick, certainly nothing that Blaine invented.
(not the best video I've seen but the easiest one for me to find):




Anything one human can do another can replicate. Whenever I see something like that I am not at all shocked -- curious perhaps, wanting to know how the trick was done. But, thinking anything serious is happening? No.

"Hi, watch my legs grow and shrink! But, I can only do it while I am seated and while you focus on my feet."  Yeah, right. Make his legs grow and shrink while he's naked and standing up. "Hi, watch me levitate myself!  But, stand right at the angle where you are! Don't move!"  Mierda del Toro.

What I find curious is that people who are spellbound by the chicanery can assume that the change in his legs is done by god. I could show you the same thing and declare I am a disciple of satan. Why is it that god gets credit? Really! Did growing the man's legs and then shrinking them again help that man? No! So deceit is the work of satan, right? The video is deceitful, yet it's purpose is to demonstrate the power of jesus christ or some version of god. Religion, no matter how pious it claims to be, is full of deceit.

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2014, 01:30:44 PM »
The last thing you need to do to get away from christianity is to realize that YouTube videos should not be accepted as unadulterated versions of the truth.

Note that the "healer" has other videos on YouTube where he apologizes for the fact this healings don't stick, but it isn't his fault, it is the fault of the person he healed, who doesn't believe enough.

Anyway, look at clues like the fact that the man's shoes are evenly worn. If he were really crippled in some way, they would wear unevenly. And did he move like he was crippled? And his feet are not only straight up and down, but even tipped back bit. There's a reason for that.

This is a trick. Now that you have developed critical thinking skills, one of your jobs is to use them whenever you encounter people trying to alter your reality. If what you are seeing/being told/given evidence for does not match the reality you know, then you need to ask questions, and avoid reaching conclusions until those questions get answered in some satisfactory way. And once they are satisfactorily answered, keep those answers in mind the next time someone tries to hoodwink you.

However, if you still need more YouTube, go watch this one. Where the trick is actually explained:

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Offline Tero

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2014, 02:02:33 PM »
Take the leap of faith. There is no magic.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2014, 09:39:33 PM »
Darren Brown showed how some of the other faith healing tricks were done too. How to make it appear that deaf people could be made to hear and blind people made to see. It is surprising how easy these tricks are.

I saw the whole series when he made them.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2014, 12:50:21 AM »
I call crap.  Somebody doing a "magic" trick which is probably not all that magical. Take note of what you don't see:

(1) the man stand up. Yes, he may have prosthetics on for all we know -- show me actual bare legs that grow and then maybe I will give him the time of day,
(2) his position in the chair while his legs supposedly grow/shrink, and
(3) a child ignoring the adults because the toy truck is more interesting. That last one is the biggest red flag. Who is the easiest of all to impress with tricks? Children. If children aren't oooing and aawwwing over it, trust me, it's not worth the cost of a ticket.

And one more clue that the video is a load of crap: viewer comments are turned off. Wouldn't want to have to deal with any skeptics posting on there, or worse yet someone might post the trick's solution.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2014, 03:25:49 AM »
I'd appreciate if some of the WWGHA "Elders" would take a peak at this video and tell me how this works. 
The trick has been known for at least 100 years. It was, I believe, first done by illusionists just for the laughs but it was quickly seized on by those of a religious bent who disregard "Thou shallt not bear false witness."

Pro Tips:
As a tip in uncovering the means of doing any magic trick, never ask, 1. "How did he do that?", always ask, 2. "What would I do if I wanted to create that illusion?"

I say this as 1. has the possible answer, "It was magic!" and this tends to support a belief in magic. But the least answer for 2. is "I don't know." which has got nothing to do with magic.

Any video that has magic/miracles/the supernatural/etc that also has "Comments are disabled for this video." is bogus. Comments are disabled for this video. is there to prevent people commenting, "This is how the trick is done..."


Edit to add:

Is this the same trick that you posted at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26458.0.html ? The link in that one does not work but there seems to be some "leg-based" responses.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 03:31:30 AM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline relativetruth

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2014, 05:00:17 AM »
When you look at the first few minutes of the video you can see that as the right leg is 'growing' he is also turning his left leg inward.

From the camera angle it looks like there is more gap developing between the edges of the shoes. This is why wearing shoes is extremely important to the trick.

When he removes the shoes you can see from his toes that they are both bent backwards, the right bent back slightly more, showing that ALL his muscles are under tension. Indeed he was able hold his feet aloft for a few seconds without the support of the faith healer. Also when the shoes were removed both sets of toes were initially rigid then a second later they moved as he stood up.

With all his leg muscles taut he can use his thigh muscles to extend one of his leg lengths by an inch or so.

Ask him to do the trick, relaxed, barefoot and lying on a bed!
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 05:10:58 AM by relativetruth »
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 05:24:53 AM »
^^^^^
even better ask him to do the trick suspended vertically, feet in water, in a swimming pool with many cameras filming at the same time.  That way he can't use his butt muscles to adjust his position of right relative to left.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 05:27:49 AM by relativetruth »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2014, 05:26:13 AM »
Edit to add:

Is this the same trick that you posted at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26458.0.html ? The link in that one does not work but there seems to be some "leg-based" responses.

I smell troll.
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Offline BornAgainAtheist

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2014, 02:19:52 PM »
Look, I know what the term troll means.  I know that those who frequent these forums have some 6th sense that allows them to smell or sense a troll.  I also know that the troll label is akin to the Scarlet Letter.  Let’s not go there.  I am not putting you on.  I’m not a lonely douche bag who’s trying to elicit an emotional response from you (although I am lonely most of the time).  I am also confused.

I’ll give you a bit more history.  I grew up a “Third Culture Kid”, also known as a MK, short for Military Kid or Missionary Kid.  I was both.  My father joined the US Navy somewhere around 1970 as he knew his draft number was up for the Vietnam War and didn’t want to be a grunt.  I was born in Rota Spain in November 1973.  Shortly after moving to Spain, my parents were befriended by a Christian couple.  This couple wanted nothing more than to show my parents love.  They helped my parents out by watching me and my sister, giving time, money and supplies to my parents who were young adults living with 2 children on an enlisted salary in a foreign country with my Dad being out to sea for 6 months at a time.  During this time they shared the gospel of Jesus with my parents at which point they both “gave their lives” to God. 

Through this couple my parents met Bob and Vicki Lichty (my “spiritual” Aunt and Uncle).  Uncle Bob and Aunt Vicki were (and still are) associated with a Christian missionary organization called YWAM (Youth With A Mission).  It was during this time, during my development years that I began receiving my indoctrination into Christianity.  I was a “Kings Kid”.  I lived on farms in Switzerland and for months on a campground in Austria.  We’ve lived in “communes” all over the world.  My parents once drove through the Atlas Mountains in a VW bus while we were in Spain to deliver a bunch of mattresses that my Dad had come up with through some connections in the Navy.  They were delivering these supplies to a YWAM base in Tangier Morocco.  I was not old enough to walk.  They tell me I just rolled around in the back of the van on top of the mattresses.  My Father always remembers how dark it was out there with no lights but the Bedouin fires in the distance.  He always recounts how they were so glad they filled up on gas at the only gas station before entering the mountains or they would have run out of gas smack dab in the middle of the Moroccan mountains.  At any rate, I was an American military/missionary child living outside of my country.  That’s the beginning of my story.

During their time in YWAM my parents met the Barnreuther family.  The Barnreuthers have 3 children.  Johnny is their oldest.  They still live in Spain and I see them infrequently.  Johnny is the young man in the video that I posted in the other forum entry that Graybeard inquired into.  BTW, the link to the video is still working for me. 

I mentioned in my original post that I had a “skeptical awakening” a few years ago and since then I’ve been living it.  I’ve been questioning everything.  I’ve stripped it all down to the basics and had to relearn “what I can know to be true”.  So far, I know that I exist and I can learn about my world.  I also know that rocks exist and fall to the earth when dropped.  Otherwise, I was never much of a student.  I was too busy skateboarding or some other such introverted, autodidactic  activity that didn’t require reading, classrooms or too many people.  But then just a few months ago, Johnny posted a video of a miracle that he’d been party to at a church in Spain.  It was the second such video that he’d posted on Facebook within a matter of weeks.  It rocked my world.  I was sucked back in.  Now, for folks like you who seem to be very settled in your realism it may seem weak.  How could I just give up all I’d learned about logic and reason and realism?  Well, if it had just been some Joe Shmoe, I would have rolled my eyes and moved on.  But this was Johnny Barnreuther.  A kid I grew up with.  Not a schemer.  Not a charlatan.  Not a liar.  This is Johnny one of the most honest (albeit a theist) people I know.  I tried to push it out of my mind but then I saw this recent video a couple of weeks ago. 

Most of the advice in this thread is advice that I’ve already discovered.  You may guess that after seeing the PC Jr. video I did the cursory Google searches for “fake miracles” and “leg lengthening trick”.  I found Darren Browns documentary almost immediately.  I understand everything that you all are saying and want to thank you for your responses.  If you’ll excuse the pun, I’m not pulling your leg.  I’m honestly conflicted about these videos from Johnny and Pete Cabrera Jr.  If Pete’s video had ended before the 6:30 mark, I might have just put it out of my mind.  But it doesn’t and none of the explanations that I’ve been able to come up with are enough to ease my mind.  If he’s really pulling a fast one and is a fraud, he’s really going out of his way.  There is no way that the guy sitting in the chair is moving his own legs in and out as smoothly as they’re moving.  At a certain point both of his legs move simultaneously.  Some of you mentioned how he’s probably a double amputee, but then others are talking about him moving his toes.  I wish these fuckers would have measured the guy with lines on the wall before and after the “4-5 inch” growth but then of course we all know that’s not meant to happen. 

I lived a relatively (if not mostly) happy childhood.  A traumatic experience after I’d moved from Japan to a “basically foreign” country (the US) to go to college caused me to reach out to the only place I knew.  I called out to God.  He saved me.  I spent the next 4 years in and out of mental institutions, diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Messianic Delusions, Clinical Depression.  You name it, I’ve suffered it.  I was able to rebuild my life, get off medication and have been in an IT career for 10 years.  No incidents.  I took up the “rebel Christian” flag for a number of years, against the mainstream but still a believer.  That led me to the place where I found myself asking the “10 questions every believer must ask himself” a few years ago.  It worked.  I thought my way out of my indoctrination.  I no longer had to live in constant fear of Hell.  But now there’s this…these videos.  I really am conflicted.  I’m confused again.  I’ve alienated all of my friends and my family with my rejection of their religion and my own.  My constant skeptical hounding and badgering has made me an anathema on FB.  The thing is I couldn’t tell you what the consequences of E equaling MC squared are.  I really have no great understanding of the theory of evolution or biology.  And I don’t care to.  I’m almost 40 years old and I’m still conflicted between that which I don’t understand and that which I’m terrified of.  I went on a three week trip to Spain this past May to visit the place where I was born and raised.  I hadn’t been back in 25 years.  It was the single best 3 weeks of my entire life.  I was free.  I was home.  I didn’t give a single thought to any of this.  I wish I could just be there.  Not caring.  Why is it that I have to care about any of this???
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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 02:53:54 PM »
Thanks for sharing all that. I didn't have to go through all the indoctrination you did, so it is a little tough for me to relate.

But it doesn’t and none of the explanations that I’ve been able to come up with are enough to ease my mind.

How about Penn and Teller's trick?  The one where they catch the bullets in their mouths.  Tell me if you can figure that one out.  If not, does that make it a miracle?  magic?  Here is the thing, the argument you are making is the one one they want you to make - an argument from ignorance.  You cannot figure out what they did, so they want you to accept their answer - god - as the default.

Don't do it.  They are just doing a trick.  You are not meant to figure it out. 

If he’s really pulling a fast one and is a fraud, he’s really going out of his way.

Of course he is.  That is what it takes to convince you.

  There is no way that the guy sitting in the chair is moving his own legs in and out as smoothly as they’re moving.

why not?

At a certain point both of his legs move simultaneously.

maybe they are, maybe they aren't.  The thing with magic tricks is, the performer is working very hard to get you to believe something that is not real.  I will have to do a little P&T research for you. 

I wish these fuckers would have measured the guy with lines on the wall before and after the “4-5 inch” growth but then of course we all know that’s not meant to happen.

Of course not.  Why not?  There are several ways they could have done this "miracle" to make it much easier to verify.  But they didn't.  They did it this way.  Why?  You know the reason. 

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 03:32:54 PM »
Why is it that I have to care about any of this???

I think you are the kind of person who needs to believe this kind of thing. From what you have described of yourself, it is probably unavoidable for you. All I can say is that if you trust the opinions of others who have examined this carefully, they and I know these miracles are fakes.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Calling all WWGHA Elders!
« Reply #17 on: Yesterday at 10:28:42 PM »
If he’s really pulling a fast one and is a fraud, he’s really going out of his way.  There is no way that the guy sitting in the chair is moving his own legs in and out as smoothly as they’re moving.  At a certain point both of his legs move simultaneously.  Some of you mentioned how he’s probably a double amputee, but then others are talking about him moving his toes.  I wish these fuckers would have measured the guy with lines on the wall before and after the “4-5 inch” growth but then of course we all know that’s not meant to happen. 
If nothing else, doesn't it strike you as utterly ridiculous and implausible that this would be the method by which an omnipotent god would choose to demonstrate its powers?
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I’m almost 40 years old and I’m still conflicted between that which I don’t understand and that which I’m terrified of.
If you were born in November, 1973, you have been 40 for 8 months now. Sorry to break it to you. I tried to stay 39 as long as possible, too.  ;)
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