Author Topic: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?  (Read 1121 times)

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #116 on: Today at 05:28:21 PM »


No, I am saying that at that time Adam and Eve, like God, took it upon themselves to decide what is right and wrong.  However, that does not mean their definitions were objectively (from God's perspective) right.  They may have felt their nakedness was wrong, but it really was not (cf Proverbs 14:12).

First, I would like to point out that the tree they ate from was called, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".  It would be strange that Adam and Eve would eat from this tree and then just "decide" that nakedness is wrong instead of have "knowledge" that nakedness is wrong. 

Secondly, it seems like Adam and Eve's belief that nakedness was a sin was confirmed by their God because he didn't say, "take those silly fig leaves off that you sewed together because nakedness is not a sin".  Instead, he "made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them (Genesis 3:21).

It is evident they did gain some sort of knowledge.  My argument is that this knowledge was not an objective (god-approved) definition of all things good and bad.  The Law is what provided that and even it wasn't sufficient.  That's why Christians are given principles to live by rather than laws.

Because he made concessions for the conscience still does not mean their nakedness was a sin.  Afterall, it's not like they believed what God said anyway.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #117 on: Today at 05:29:30 PM »
Jst is scaring me, he is placing obedience up as a higher virtue than rational morality and empathy.

That's cult talk.

Rational morality and empathy are good, but limited by understanding.  Obedience saves lives.
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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #118 on: Today at 05:30:08 PM »
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Because fear only comes from disobedience, not obedience.

Bollocks. I was obedient to my dad out of fear.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #119 on: Today at 05:32:31 PM »
Why would they only fear punishment after eating from the tree, and not before? Did they not have firsthand knowledge of YHWH before? Did they not know it had told them not to eat the fruit?

Because fear only comes from disobedience, not obedience.

Yes, and they didn't fear disobeying YHWH until after they ate from the fruit. So, why did they only fear punishment after eating the fruit, and not before, when they were contemplating disobedience?

That is what I am saying after the correction. Sometimes it may be blind and sometimes it is not. Obedience is good, disobedience is bad. Adam and Eve did not share this definition.

So you're saying A&E were smarter than the average Jehovah's Witness.
Blind obedience is what gets people to fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves.

I do not accept your conclusion about mass murderers. 

You don't have to accept it because it's true, regardless. Many mass murderers claim that God (sic) told them to do it.

An objective knowledge of good and bad are not necessary for obedience.

Certainly not blind obedience.

Dressing with modesty and self-control can differ from culture to culture.

Which would matter, were this not the "objective morality" of YHWH.
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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #120 on: Today at 05:32:49 PM »
Quote
Because fear only comes from disobedience, not obedience.

Bollocks. I was obedient to my dad out of fear.

And when did that fear start?  I posit it started after the first time you disobeyed.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #121 on: Today at 05:44:10 PM »
No, it would be around the time he got drunk and beat the crap out of me for the first time as a little girl. No reason necessary. Is there ANY reason a father should be able to beat a 4-year-old?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #122 on: Today at 05:47:42 PM »
Fear is a result of disobedience, straight from a cult manual.

It is also not true, fear is a result of experience and evolution. People have all sorts of irrational fear not based on disobedience. Even puppies go through well studied natural fear stages that are nothing to do with disobedience.

Jst you are way gone, try and escape your cult. There are people to help, I know you are scared, be brave, be a man...escape your captors.
« Last Edit: Today at 05:49:38 PM by eh! »
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #123 on: Today at 05:53:32 PM »
Jst step aside from what you think god or A&E think for a minute, do you think it was wrong?

No, I don't think it was wrong.

Nothing that Jehovah god does, (or, more accurately, is reported in the bible to have done) can ever be wrong. It may take mind-bending, pretzel-like twists of logic, but whatever god does is right. Even when god says one thing in one part of the bible and the opposite in a different place.

Even when, as in the flood, god kills all those people (including babies and toddlers) for behavior that they could not have known was wrong, because god had not told them it was evil and wrong, because Moses had not brought the laws yet. And Jesus would show up centuries later not to abolish the laws of Moses but to fulfill them, like a prescription, or drive over them like a monster truck, or rewrite them like a sleazy lawyer, or whatever that passage means when it's at home.

God destroyed them all in a great inundation because he knew in advance that they were doing stuff against the rules that he had not yet given them, but that he would have given them someday in the future when they were already dead because he drowned them. I think I need Douglas Adams to give me some verb tenses appropriate to describe the actions of a being outside of space and time.[1]

Once we all accept that, the things that Jst says make perfect sense.

Enslavement, sex with your servant woman, incest, wiping out other ethnic groups, stoning gays or people accused of witchcraft to death--all good if Jehovah god orders it or approves of it. Even the attempted murder of your own nearly grown son is fine and dandy 'cause god said so.

You can tell that god approves of an action by what happens to the people after they do it. If they enslave or kill their neighboring tribes and are rewarded with land, wealth, etc. in the bible, then god approved. If they enslave or kill their neighboring tribes and get smited with pestilence and plagues of frogs, then god did not approve. Easy, right?[2]

The very same action or behavior is [usually but not always] bad if a different god or a non-god-appointed human leader tells you to do it. You cannot just decide for yourself what is good or bad, willy nilly. Sometimes god wants you to do something that he just absolutely smote someone else for doing. Like enslavement. Other times he lets stuff slide for thousands of years before telling people that it is [now] wrong to do. Like incest. Simple, yes?

If at some future date the JW's decide that something they currently think is forbidden should be allowed, or vice versa, it is easy peasy. Just say that before, you had an incomplete understanding of what god wanted. Now you know and it's all good. So now you can start [or stop] having blood transfusions. And now you should stop [or start] having sex with your siblings.

And that is what makes morality objective. Ya see.  :?
 1. Makes me wonder if it is a good idea for a god to exist outside of space and time.....Maybe if he existed inside space and time, he would do things that actually made sense to beings that exist inside space and time. Just sayin'.  :angel:
 2. Unless you are just unlucky and get leprosy or intestinal parasites or something. Because god forgot to tell Moses about germs. Or if god wants to make an example out of you to Satan. Then all bets are off. (See what I did there?)
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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #124 on: Today at 06:00:07 PM »
Yes, and they didn't fear disobeying YHWH until after they ate from the fruit. So, why did they only fear punishment after eating the fruit, and not before, when they were contemplating disobedience?

It is not the same.  Fear of what will happen "if" you disobey is not the same fear experienced after you have already disobeyed.  It has to do with expectation.  The fear is difference one you actually have to expect the punishment.

I can recall there were times my father determined to spank me as a child.  Often he would send me to my room and say "I'll be in there after I smoke this cigarette".  There was no other fear to compare to that.  The fear actually became worse than the punishment itself.  That level of fear only set in after the punishment was imminent.

Even today, I fear going to jail.  But that is nothing like the fear I would experience if going to jail were to become imminent.

Quote
So you're saying A&E were smarter than the average Jehovah's Witness.
Blind obedience is what gets people to fly planes into buildings and strap bombs to themselves.

I don't know what you mean by that.  JWs do not do those things, at least not while remaining in good standing.

I don't think you are taking a realistic view of obedience.  Should someone disobey something simply because they do not understand?

Quote
You don't have to accept it because it's true, regardless. Many mass murderers claim that God (sic) told them to do it.

But that doesn't mean God actually did tell them to do it.  Those that claim it, make God out to be a liar.  That is why the Bible instructs Christians to test the inspired expressions (1 John 4:1).  God is not going to tell someone to do something that he has already taught his followers not to do.

Quote
Certainly not blind obedience.

Nor is it required for obedience through trust.  Adam and Eve had reason to trust Jehovah yet they did not.  It had nothing to do with blind obedience.  It had to do with trust.

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Which would matter, were this not the "objective morality" of YHWH.

The only objective morality is to obey Jehovah.  Apart from the there are no laws of right/wrong.
 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #125 on: Today at 06:15:07 PM »
PRAY AND OBEY
some skepisms,
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2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #126 on: Today at 06:19:11 PM »
No, it would be around the time he got drunk and beat the crap out of me for the first time as a little girl.  No reason necessary.

My mother was the same way.  I am sorry for anyone that has to experience that.  Although I have to say, better it was my mother than my father.  My father could have done a lot more damage.  But that is beside the point.  You were not born possessing that fear.  It was gained through experience.

Quote
Is there ANY reason a father should be able to beat a 4-year-old?

That depends on how you define "beat".  Beyond that it depends on the child and parent.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #127 on: Today at 06:33:50 PM »

The only objective morality is to obey Jehovah.  Apart from the there are no laws of right/wrong.

Could not have said it better myself.  Much more concise.

Now, why god bothered to keep sending down people with laws and rules and so on, implying that those rules represent right and wrong, when he knows/knew people will/would not understand them and cannot/could not follow them at any rate, I cannot fathom.

If you have the power to communicate perfectly with everyone, no matter what their language or intelligence, why not just do that? What is the point of something as long and complicated as the bible? Most people throughout history will never hear of it, let alone read it; other people will hear of it and will depend on somebody else's interpretation of it due to illiteracy or lack of intelligence. Those who read it themselves will interpret it wrongly.[1]

The bible does not give a straightforward idea of what god wants in terms of obedience.  Make babies with the sexy servants when the old spouse is infertile, or not? Listen to the voice that says kill gays, or not? As has been said, lots of folks say they are obeying god (like the European people who tortured and burned witches, and the slave owners in the Americas who taught Christianity to their slaves) and can cite passages in the bible that support what they do.

If only god would (instead of sending prophets, teachers, sons, etc who are indistinguishable from false representatives of demons) show up himself and clarify what exactly obedience to him entails, so everyone would know without any doubt or confusion. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Either Jehovah does not know how confused people are with his lame communication and hands-off management style. Or he does know but simply does not care.

Or he is waiting for the time to be right when he will unleash Armageddon! And there will be a great battle between the righteous and Satan's followers, and much death and destruction will ensue and god will win and bind Satan in a pit for a thousand years while Jesus rules over a theocratic kingdom of the righteous, and then Jehovah will set Satan loose again to terrorize the remaining unrighteous who somehow slipped through the first Armageddon (perhaps by hiding in the Australian outback with Tina and Mel) until he is again defeated for good, and so on.

Or god is not real and does not exist and we are therefore kinda on our own to figure out good and bad as best we can.

Take your pick. Choice seems easy to me.
 1. Except the handful of JW's who will be the only people in history who, beginning in the late 19th century, finally get it right.
If people really believed in god's will they would not buy insurance.

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #128 on: Today at 06:35:20 PM »

Quote
Is there ANY reason a father should be able to beat a 4-year-old?

That depends on how you define "beat".  Beyond that it depends on the child and parent.

Now that is effing scary. Not going to touch this. So much for objective morality.
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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #129 on: Today at 06:37:37 PM »


No, I am saying that at that time Adam and Eve, like God, took it upon themselves to decide what is right and wrong.  However, that does not mean their definitions were objectively (from God's perspective) right.  They may have felt their nakedness was wrong, but it really was not (cf Proverbs 14:12).

First, I would like to point out that the tree they ate from was called, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil".  It would be strange that Adam and Eve would eat from this tree and then just "decide" that nakedness is wrong instead of have "knowledge" that nakedness is wrong. 

Secondly, it seems like Adam and Eve's belief that nakedness was a sin was confirmed by their God because he didn't say, "take those silly fig leaves off that you sewed together because nakedness is not a sin".  Instead, he "made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them (Genesis 3:21).

It is evident they did gain some sort of knowledge.  My argument is that this knowledge was not an objective (god-approved) definition of all things good and bad.


Oooooohhhh....I see....so they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and received subjective morality.
   
OK.

That's why Christians are given principles to live by rather than laws.

Jst says Christians don't live by laws and Jesus says one that keeps and teaches these laws will be called "great in the kingdom of heaven".

OK

John 14:15 says, "If you love me keep my commands".  Is there a translation out there that says, "If you love me live by the principles I gave you"?

Because he made concessions for the conscience still does not mean their nakedness was a sin.

Why would God make concessions for their conscience.  Why wouldn't he just say, "I know you 'decided' nakedness is a sin but it really isn't."  You know....maybe explain to them that they did not possess objective knowledge of what good and evil really is.

It seems like God making garments of skin for them only creates confusion as to whether nakedness is a sin or not.       

Afterall, it's not like they believed what God said anyway.

Why was A&E afraid then?     

"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #130 on: Today at 06:43:56 PM »
God, for all his almighty-ness, seems to really suck at communicating.

Jst, are you saying that Jehovah god could not figure out how to tell A and E what they needed to know in a way that would be clear and convincing to them? Or did he make them so flawed and messed up that even a perfect being would not be able to reach them?

Either way, seems like the buck has to stop with Jehovah, right?
If people really believed in god's will they would not buy insurance.

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #131 on: Today at 06:51:09 PM »
Slightly behind, but here it goes anyway...

No, it does not say they learned the difference between right and wrong.  And in fact it is demonstratable that their definition and God's definition were different in that they didn't repent from their actual wrongdoing, nor did they even show any remorse for it. 

Maybe what they did wasn't wrong, and that is the point?

This they would have done if their definitions were the same as God's. 

Unless yhwh was just a jackass who made up arbitrary and morally irrelevant rules.  Which, really, the weight of evidence points to at being the case.  "Hey, Abe.  Kill your kid and I'll make you prosper!"  "Hey, Abe.  Chop off part of your penis and I'll make you prosper!" "Hey, Abe. Don't eat bacon or clams and I'll make you prosper!" 

If yhwh was ever on the side of morality it was pure coincidence.

In fact, they focused on something completely different that God never told them was wrong.

Nevertheless, the jooz thought, and still think, revealing your nakedness is a moral issue. 

You seem to be forgetting that the Bible teaches that sin is breaking the law (1 John 3:4).  Their nakedness broke no law, and was therefore not sinful.   

If that were true, from a scriptural perspective, which it isn't, then Noah getting shitfaced drunk and passing out nude would not have been an issue.  So, you're wrong.  Or, rather, the imbeciles at watchtower are wrong.

I hope that helps.
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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #132 on: Today at 07:05:17 PM »
Jst is proud of not having a moral compass, he thinks that earns him points with his master.

Jst is there any heinous act you would not commit if god revealed to you in a dream to do it.
« Last Edit: Today at 07:06:54 PM by eh! »
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #133 on: Today at 07:14:00 PM »
Now, why god bothered to keep sending down people with laws and rules and so on, implying that those rules represent right and wrong, when he knows/knew people will/would not understand them and cannot/could not follow them at any rate, I cannot fathom.

Such laws were important when they were given.  They served and protected a nation.  But they were never meant to be a permanent fixture nor were they given to forever determine morality.  For one, laws become obsolete.  That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the law, it just means things change.  Although some laws become more obsolete than others.

Quote
If you have the power to communicate perfectly with everyone, no matter what their language or intelligence, why not just do that? What is the point of something as long and complicated as the bible? Most people throughout history will never hear of it, let alone read it; other people will hear of it and will depend on somebody else's interpretation of it due to illiteracy or lack of intelligence. Those who read it themselves will interpret it wrongly.

It's not just a matter of communication.  The Bible and history are full of people that knew God's will yet rejected it.  But there are people that did not know it, yet fulfilled it (compare Romans 2:13-16)

The Bible is a tool, but it is not a standalone.

Quote
The bible does not give a straightforward idea of what god wants in terms of obedience.  Make babies with the sexy servants when the old spouse is infertile, or not?

Really?  Did God command such a thing?  God's servants have done things that he never commanded.  The fact the scriptures do not gloss over this fact is evidence of it's truthfulness.

Quote
Listen to the voice that says kill gays, or not?

God has never commanded people to kill gays.  For a time, the Jews were commanded to put to death those that practiced homosexuality, but never was anyone ever told to kill gays.

Quote
As has been said, lots of folks say they are obeying god (like the European people who tortured and burned witches, and the slave owners in the Americas who taught Christianity to their slaves) and can cite passages in the bible that support what they do.

So?  Satan himself tried to use scripture to tempt Christ.  Why would you expect his children to do any differently?  There are no scriptures that support going to a foreign nation for the express purpose of making slaves.  Yes, some war criminals were made slaves.  That is far different than American slavery.

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If only god would (instead of sending prophets, teachers, sons, etc who are indistinguishable from false representatives of demons) show up himself and clarify what exactly obedience to him entails, so everyone would know without any doubt or confusion. Wouldn't that make more sense?

Learning the will of God and doing the will of God is an ongoing process.  You act as if the fat lady has already sung.  She hasn't.  God has made allowance for mistakes.  You act as if he has not.  And contrary to what some people say, it's not about blind obedience.  It's about learning and acting in harmony with that knowledge.  People are not going to be judged based on what knowledge they don't possess.  People are going to be judged based on their willingness to do the thing they know to be right.  If a person is not willing to do what they already know to be right then further education is pointless.  Knowing the will of God is no gaurantee a person will do the will of God.  We are each given just enough, but never so much faith becomes useless.  I don't even think it's possible to ever know enough that no faith will be required.

It's not that God is going to save only perfect people.  Noone would be saved.  It's a matter of seperating those that are willing to do right from those that are unwilling.  For those that are unwilling, education is pointless.

And God doesn't just want people that do what he says because he says it, but rather he wants people that are willing to see what's right, and then do it.  We are all capable of living up to the knowledge we possess.  That's what matters.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #134 on: Today at 07:17:37 PM »
God, for all his almighty-ness, seems to really suck at communicating.

Jst, are you saying that Jehovah god could not figure out how to tell A and E what they needed to know in a way that would be clear and convincing to them? Or did he make them so flawed and messed up that even a perfect being would not be able to reach them?

Either way, seems like the buck has to stop with Jehovah, right?

Bull.  Who doesn't know God has said lying is wrong?  How many people lie anyway?  Why should such people be given more knowledge?  Just so they can abuse it?  You don't need to know EVERYTHING in order to do the right thing.  The question is:  Do you do the good you know you should do?  If not, then you don't need to know anything else.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #135 on: Today at 07:25:03 PM »
Jst do you realise that to the average, unbiased, regular person your views here sound morally bankrupt and suggest abusive, exploitive master / slave relationship based purely on fear and obedience.

That's how you appear. I doubt you are bringing anyone closer to god. In fact you are only taking yourself further from reality and humanity. Is that your goal for yourself and others?

Being totally honest here, no BS.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #136 on: Today at 07:50:27 PM »
Jst is scaring me, he is placing obedience up as a higher virtue than rational morality and empathy.

That's cult talk.

Rational morality and empathy are good, but limited by understanding.  Obedience saves lives.
is there evidence for this,can you honestly say that and really mean it? Followers die,but then again,you will use the 'free-will' argument as the reason. It's too bad all the praying they do,can't save them from themselves,no matter how devout  to their God they are.






There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why did YHWH create A&E in a state of sin?
« Reply #137 on: Today at 07:56:50 PM »
It's amazing .....a theist can disobey its god's wishes but be forgiven because of his belief,a non theist can't. Other than a belief in a Deity,can you explain the difference JST?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)