When faced with God you can still play stupid and pretend you don't know (then chose Hell) or accept God and repent for all those venial sins committed (then go through purgatory then heaven)
Here you say “you can still play stupid and pretend you don’t know” AKA not believe and “then choose hell” or “accept God and repent” AKA believe and convert and “then go through purgatory then heaven”.
Which does not equal what you say next:
"believe in Jesus/God or get to choose between purgatory and hell."
Which you say “believe in Jesus/God” and I presume go to heaven or “get to choose between purgatory and hell”. What happened to going through purgatory and then heaven? In any case you are still agreeing with me even though you claim that you are not. You seem to be forcing the word “choose” into this discussion which was not mentioned in the CCC.
The evidence supports the fact that “believe in Jesus/God or go to Hell” is indeed what the Catholic Church teaches. Everyone can clearly see that is the case, including Catholics (I should know as I have two uncles who are Catholic and their parents were Catholic, my father and aunt would always have arguments with them regarding Catholic teachings).
By pretending that is not the case you only make yourself look like a fool who is only interested in not admitting you are wrong instead of correcting your mistake. What reason do I have to continue having a discussion with you if you insist on behaving this way?
I believe that we are free and that the choice is always ours to make.
Whether we are free or not makes no difference, the Catholic Church teaches “believe in Jesus/God or go to hell”. Your idea of freedom is what I call an ultimatum. Additionally, it is not “Jesus/God” who is directly delivering this message to me, no it is an organized religion and a ancient book with unknown authors.
Your freedom to choose is the equivalent of someone holding a gun to my head and saying “Give me all your money or I’ll kill you”. Your version of freedom implies that I am free to choose between giving this person my money or being killed. This is not what I call freedom. This is called an ultimatum. Your version of freedom implies I am free to believe in “Jesus/God” or I am free to choose to go to hell. This is not freedom, it is an ultimatum.
You rationalize this ultimatum as freedom, which is exactly in support of my original reply that started this discussion. See the following:
This is what religion is, it makes excuses for a god and if that doesn’t work it convinces you that everything is all part of this god’s plan and everything is exactly as it should be. This is a systematic self-reinforcing delusion to hold onto the flock as no one can question this god’s plan, we are insignificant lowly mortals who can’t possibly comprehend the plan of a god. Very convenient.
Lukvance, you have been convinced that an ultimatum is the equivalent to freedom. You have been brainwashed by your religion. The fact is you are not free to choose. You are not free to choose to not believe in “Jesus/God”! Why? Because doing so means you have “chosen” hell! Today, does society allow us the freedom to murder? No, we are not allowed to murder others, we could, but we would then be punished by going to prison. Committing murder is against the law. In the same way, your religion has a law that if you do not believe in “Jesus/God”, then you will be punished by descending into hell.
By the way, saying “do not murder or you will go to prison” is also an ultimatum, the thing is, it is a pretty reasonable ultimatum in which the large majority of society accepts. Now, the question becomes, is the ultimatum of “believe in Jesus/God or go to hell” a reasonable ultimatum? Is it reasonable for someone to suffer eternal punishments in hell for simply not believing? Will you answer no, or will you continue to ignore this problem by attempting to rationalize it away?
Yes, I’m aware of your earlier question as I’m all too familiar with it myself. I’ll answer it now:
Could you imagine if venial sinners were able to go to heaven without repent? Doesn't make much sense does it?
To the first question, yes I can imagine it, and it is what I would expect from an all-loving god (namely who does not give ultimatums and realizes that humans are imperfect). The primary way in which it doesn’t make sense is that it would then imply that people would be free to do whatever they want and still go to heaven including not believing which inevitably would result in the death of the religion that promotes such a belief. Believing the religion is true is the key to the religion surviving, this is why your religion teaches "believe in Jesus/God or get to choose between purgatory and hell”.
Is it acceptable that a good loving person who chooses to not believe should go to hell, yet a bad person who murders, confesses to committing the sin of murder and believes should go to heaven?
There are rules like "the fire burns the flesh" but when it comes to punishment I believe it's coming from ourselves (humans) not from God. It allows me to take responsibility for almost everything happening to me.
It is not responsibility which you are taking Lukvance. It is you submitting to the systematic self-reinforcing delusion called religion. You have been convinced that accepting an ultimatum is accepting responsibility. In doing so, you submit your ultimatum to me that If I don’t accept your ultimatum then I am refusing to accept responsibility. Additionally, you have dissolved all of the responsibility of your god and insisted that we humans are responsible to accept ultimatums. I’m sorry Lukvance, but if your god exists and is the creator of the universe, then your god has the most responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility.
This is all part of your cognitive dissonance. You refuse to accept that your god would allow people to go to hell, so you shift the responsibility of your god to the people who go to hell. You convince yourself it is their fault that they went to hell, your god is not responsible. You categorize your beliefs and keep them separate from one another because they conflict. On one hand you have convince yourself that we are responsible for descending into hell, but you ignore that it is your god that created the universe, created humans, and created the conditions in which we had the “freedom to choose hell”. To make it worse, you’ve convinced yourself that your god does not directly interact with us because “that would violate our free will”.
Even worse still, when it comes to your god, he himself wouldn’t even pass his own expectations of us humans. “Jesus/God” expects us humans to treat the least of us with love, respect and open arms. If we do that (and believe) then we go to heaven, but if we don’t cloth the naked, feed the hungry, befriend the stranger, visit the sick and imprisoned then we will go to hell (whether we believe or not). Your god does not clothe the naked as there are still homeless, your god does not feed the hungry as there is still those who starve to death, your god does not befriend the stranger as there are still those that do not know your god, your god does not visit the sick or imprisoned as your god visits no one. Your god has no choice but to not accept himself into heaven and descend into hell.
Humans are far more responsible than your god. Humans understand freedom far more than your god. Humans do far more good than your god. Humans understand justice far more than your god. The reason for this is that your god does not exist to take responsibility or do good. Your god was invented by humans who did not understand freedom or justice.
I believe that the Catholic Church teach that "Jesus is good for you, come and try it"
I did try it, for 20 years I tried it but then gradually I figured out that it was a lie, a delusion, a mechanism used to control people. It is a primitive means to govern without government. It is a primitive means to explain that which we do not understand. It is a primitive means to relieve fear of the unknown. Religion and belief in a god or gods might be the most destructive invention ever conceived.