Author Topic: in need of coaching again;  (Read 199 times)

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in need of coaching again;
« on: Yesterday at 08:41:21 PM »
a theist gave me this to an invitation to debate, the part in bold WTF, where do you even start??? clearly the reasoning is that OT horrors are not bad cos god did them and we are his property and you can't do wrong against your own property.

"I am a literalist and claim that God’s word is inerrant, infallible, and true - but you must look at context of verses and not pull them out randomly.

i don’t believe in the 144,000 like the Jehovah witness, and yes there are many religions and even sects within christianity that are close but incorrect - “the most dangerous lies are those that are closer to the truth”

Your paradigm on christianity is distorted... You can argue scripture all you want but you cannot argue with a changed life. also - heaven is not the ultimate goal for the christian who is thinking right - its a stronger relationship with Christ that you get to enjoy now... and one day will be perfect without flesh

stick to one part until we get a conclusion - like God being psychotic. if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic - those are things to say, if you could only know Him - that is not who He is "
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 09:21:04 PM »
Just say no. He isn't interested in a debate, he wants to force you to christ or something. Tell him that his attitude is no consistent with discussion, and that you're not in the mood to be talked at.

If he tell you that you're chicken or something, tell him that you're not afraid, but rather that you'd rather not discuss reality with someone who thinks he has all the answers.

And if he really presses you, tell him that, if god is real, that the dude foresaw your refusal to debate 6,000 years ago and you can't do anything about it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jag

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 09:26:59 PM »
First, do you actually want to debate with him?

I can barely even talk to a literalist about religion, much less debate one, but that's just me. There's several members here who have the patience to do it, and a few with the (seems to me at least) needed compassion to really engage with them, at least for a while.

There's lots of ways to approach this, should you decide you want to do so. I think it would depend on what your motivations are, the nature of your relationship to this person (is there one, and if so, do you care enough to protect it?), and what you hope to accomplish.

But that's only if you actually want to engage with him. I'm with PP - don't bother.
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 09:34:15 PM »
don't mean to sound rude or ungrateful for your reply but this sounded like a comical slapdown;

"And if he really presses you, tell him that, if god is real, that the dude foresaw your refusal to debate 6,000 years ago and you can't do anything about it."

the guy seems genuinely a nice guy but to say this as a defence to OT atrocities is degrading to humans;

"if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic "

the "I" I assume means anyone who creates something has the right to do whatever illegal act they choose to do with it. that to me is clearly wrong both from an atheist point of view and a theist point of view surely.

I created something therefore it is my god given right to do what I want with it... really.

now apply that to god and every living thing...REALLY????

god just reaches down with his god hand while your cleaning your house and rips your head off in front of your family and it's OK cos he created you.....REALLY????

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 09:41:48 PM by eh! »
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 09:38:53 PM »
Jag my relationship is only as an internet stranger, my motives are several, surely this can't go not responded to in good conscience even if only a swinging voter is reading it and sees the absurdity and harm in such a position.

also an excuse to sharpen my thinking.

also I feel, with sounding to self-righteous,  each person of good character should do their bit for truth as the opportunity arises, we are only temporary and hopefully our efforts will be seen and carried on into the future for truth's sake, or we return to the dark ages.


....and stuff.

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 09:47:05 PM »
and I should mention, the guy's a youth pastor and makes a nice living telling kids this stuff.
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Offline Jag

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 09:49:20 PM »
Yes, PP's smack-down is pretty funny  ;D

My guess is that he will counter one of two ways - god is not subject to human law/rules/behavior/whatever, or "everything good = god, everything bad = equals wretched sinning humans". Don't forget, YEC goes hand-in-hand with literalism - these theists are a special kind of .... special.

My first face-to-face encounter with a YEC took place about 100 yards from the entrance to the National Museum of Natural History[1] in DC - he was vehemently denying evolution directly in front of the doors to the proof he insisted didn't exist. That's a pretty f@cking willful kind of blindness there, so be prepared for the most "wtf? Do you really believe that?" conversation of your life.
 1. An AWESOME place I want desperately to return to for a MUCH longer visit
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 09:57:57 PM »
well my genesis and evolution on this forum is my preparation. if you don't know I came here due to another belligerent hams/hovind devotee that got to me, that was my first encounter. I eventually dealt with that rather well imo.

both these encounters are on two different dog breeding forums.
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 10:02:34 PM »
Ah, I see. You think we should all be as shocked as you about the property thingy. I've heard that for years, and consider it par for the course.  I imagine I was stunned the first time I heard it too. In the OP, I saw it as evidence that the guy was too far gone to debate. Because he would be telling you, either overtly or covertly, every time he opened his mouth. Folks like that are no fun to talk religion with.

Because it isn't a game to them. They think they are gods property and they think they must do what he commands. Which of course means that they think they know what his commands are. And they use that knowledge of his commands to prove to themselves that he must be real, otherwise they wouldn't know his commands. Such thoughts are about the only thing that goes on in their heads. Everything else is rote memorization of their religions' talking points.

At some point, that stuff gets old. Like, you know, within the first minute or so.

You need to pick your dog breeding forums better. (And by the way, what's a fundy doing mucking around with dog genes. If evolution isn't real, then nothing else taking advantage of genetics can be either.)

Edit: I think I fixed an egregious english error. Maybe not though. Nam will let me know if I didn't.  ;D
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 10:34:34 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline Jag

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 10:06:06 PM »
I'll toss out some options and let you guide my thinking.

Motivations: do you want to disturb his faith, make him think about his beliefs, "win"[1] the debate, or just make a case against a literal interpretation of the Bible for anyone else who reads the posts? Your approach will vary depending on what you're trying to do. In a debate, consider two things: who are you trying to persuade about what?

These dog-breeding forums sound bizarre to me. I gotta get out more...
 1. sincere qualifier here - nobody ever wins these debates; sometimes they end, but nobody ever wins
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 10:20:16 PM »
PP: " And they use that knowledge of his commands to prove to themselves that he must be real, otherwise they wouldn't know his commands."

that will be my opening volley.

and the bit about genes re dog breeding, I thought of that one myself, apparently the fundies agree on micro-evolution as fact, within the "kinds" but no new genetic info has ever been observed is the key to resolve, for them, evolution is true and they use it micro-evolutionally but that is not heretical macro-evolution for which there no proof ie nobody has ever observed a croco-duck yadayada thank you ray comfort.

Jag:

here - "do you want to disturb his faith, make him think about his beliefs" and here - "just make a case against a literal interpretation of the Bible for anyone else who reads the posts?" + have some fun.

tryin to persuade people confused about life and stuff not to settle for the easiest answer because it is just easier. I value my fellow humans.

yeah it's all happening on the dog forums, sounds like you just asked me for a clip of my puppy;



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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 11:50:15 PM »
Mmmm, and I'm supposed to sleep tonight how?

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Timo

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 11:55:00 PM »
stick to one part until we get a conclusion - like God being psychotic. if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic - those are things to say, if you could only know Him - that is not who He is "

I don't even know how you're supposed to even have a sensible discussion with this guy. I would think that, being civilized folk, we would all agree with the idea that people aren't something that one ought to be able to own. Apparently he disagrees. Though, I guess it's not all that surprising coming from a gentleman who professes the infallibility and truth of a book that not only condones slavery but outlines best practices for slavers. But I'm weird. For me, arguing for the truth of a book that says slavery is sometimes okay is a non-starter.

I think that there is a way to talk about how God's moral obligations towards humans would differ from humans' moral obligations towards one another or to God. But the crude language of ownership just doesn't work. It's disgusting. But it's disgusting in such a basic way that I have trouble even articulating my problem with it.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #13 on: Today at 06:20:54 AM »
Isn't the prerogative to destroy us on a whim a violation of the free will that xtians hold so dear?

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #14 on: Today at 09:21:33 AM »
Isn't the prerogative to destroy us on a whim a violation of the free will that xtians hold so dear?

Yep, the ones that think like that are a bunch of masochists. They love it. They want to be persecuted by everyone, including their god.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #15 on: Today at 10:59:13 AM »
I don't even know how you're supposed to even have a sensible discussion with this guy. I would think that, being civilized folk, we would all agree with the idea that people aren't something that one ought to be able to own. Apparently he disagrees. Though, I guess it's not all that surprising coming from a gentleman who professes the infallibility and truth of a book that not only condones slavery but outlines best practices for slavers. But I'm weird. For me, arguing for the truth of a book that says slavery is sometimes okay is a non-starter.

I think that there is a way to talk about how God's moral obligations towards humans would differ from humans' moral obligations towards one another or to God. But the crude language of ownership just doesn't work. It's disgusting. But it's disgusting in such a basic way that I have trouble even articulating my problem with it.

This.  They guy is obviously a moron and a fucking barbarian.  His morals are fundamentally fucked up.  There are a lot of ways to attack his stupid argument, none of which he will understand.  The best response one could have to him would be a sharp blow to the head with a pick axe.

If you want, invite him here.  Use the debate room. 
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #16 on: Today at 11:08:39 AM »
Also:
if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic - "

Congratulations, shitforbrains!  You just justified unlimited abortion in a way no pro-choice person ever would have considered.
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Offline G-Roll

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #17 on: Today at 12:17:31 PM »
Also:
if i create something I can do what i want with it - and you have no say Period! He created - he owns - and he is not psychotic - "

Congratulations, shitforbrains!  You just justified unlimited abortion in a way no pro-choice person ever would have considered.

Wouldn't that open the door for child abuse and just about any other form of domestic violence as well? Although I suppose that only works for god. God can beat his wife because he is god. Its cool. Ha! Its a good beating when god does it.

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #18 on: Today at 02:49:11 PM »
guys I got this, haven't even started on the people as property thing yet and I got him talking about aliens breeding with humans corrupting gods DNA which had to be fixed by god with mass murder, I so got this.
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Offline Jag

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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #19 on: Today at 06:12:17 PM »
^^^Lol, if the guy is a literalist as he claims, you really need to find out where the bible says that.
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #20 on: Today at 06:24:47 PM »
here is he comment, i see on second look it is not from my debating partner but from someone who chimed in to "defend" god's murdering ways;

I have read the OT and understand the arguments that Yahweh was a psychopath based on his instructions to the the Israelites to destroy every man, woman and child as they conquered Canaan. One belief is that he instructed them to do so because the Nephilim, which some have translated as fallen angels, procreated with human woman, going against the will of Yahweh, altering the DNA of Yahweh's creation. Thus, the flood was an attempt to start over and Noah's bloodline/DNA was not tainted.
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #21 on: Today at 06:57:49 PM »
here is he comment, i see on second look it is not from my debating partner but from someone who chimed in to "defend" god's murdering ways;

I have read the OT and understand the arguments that Yahweh was a psychopath based on his instructions to the the Israelites to destroy every man, woman and child as they conquered Canaan. One belief is that he instructed them to do so because the Nephilim, which some have translated as fallen angels, procreated with human woman, going against the will of Yahweh, altering the DNA of Yahweh's creation. Thus, the flood was an attempt to start over and Noah's bloodline/DNA was not tainted.

I'll bet god didn't see that coming.
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #22 on: Today at 08:17:59 PM »
^ lol
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Re: in need of coaching again;
« Reply #23 on: Today at 09:36:39 PM »
at this point, I am zip, debating partner is brabo, hans is another Xian, I might bring up the fact jesus never seemed to have a girl friend in response to the wife stuff.;

Hans you have seemed to indicate instinctive behaviour is proof of god, what about animals that eat their partners after mating with them?

Brabo - this whole; (paraphrasing) i created it, i can do what i want with it line of argument...you would be very supportive of abortion then yes?


Zip I have asked you questions but you have answered none. I know you like to debate/argue (you are vk4gsd on PDB correct :))and I'm sure you were glad when I agreed to meet you on this thread. I also remember your posts to me when I first came, we are very different in age and I'm going to respect you're set in your ways and I respect that. Originally I asked that you PM me. I'm not going to answer anymore questions until you answer mine :). I'm not here to change your mind! I'm answering your questions, but I don't want it to get to this point of badgering or making fun. You know the answer to the last question above... I'll go as far as to say (just so you can label me :)) that I am a conservative, God loving and God fearing individual, that believes every word of the Bible is true. I believe America needs to get on its knees and pray and we need revival. We need to stop shaking our fists at God and start following his Word. Despite my views Zip I did manage to find a wife though :) and we have a child Oh No!

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