Author Topic: Having it both ways  (Read 510 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2017, 01:01:37 PM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

It horrifies all the non-believers I know. Yet for some reason, believers don't see it that way - talk about a "blind spot".
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Offline YouCantHandleTheTruth

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2017, 01:05:34 PM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

It horrifies all the non-believers I know. Yet for some reason, believers don't see it that way - talk about a "blind spot".

Guys we know what's coming - Skep will tell us that everyone on Sully's plane was a Christian and praying to be saved.  That's our clear cut example of a miracle.  The pigeon?  Yup you guessed it - The Devil.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2017, 03:12:59 PM »
God must have put the lady in the situation where her car could be set on fire. A bystander attempts to free the lady without success. He the basically COMMANDS GOD to free her. Did God change his mind on her fate? Was he risking her life in order for the man to command her freedom. Was it to reaffirm the mans faith.....her faith? Imagine if an Atheist happened on her inside her burning car,only to try but fail to free her.....

 Many here who were on the verge of having faith lost have probably asked God to show a sign,only to have pleas ignored. Thousands have probably done it only to be ignored....the only real reasonable explanation.....God doesn't exist,or doesn't care if he loses faithful followers
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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2017, 03:18:51 PM »
A miracle would be making the burning fuel in a vehicle accident turn into a flame retardant.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2017, 05:59:56 PM »
Guys, I think the lesson here is that God doesn't like wussies. So, Christians...stop begging for help and mercy. Stop pleading for intervention.  Take control, use your faith and command Jesus and God to bend to your will. Authority respects authority. Authority doesn't respect sniveling little suck ups constantly nipping at their heals for special consideration. God helps those who help themselves and if you want God to do something specific, you command it be done in Jesus's precious name.

So, yeah...I think it all makes sense. God is an all powerful jerk who only responds to direct, forceful commands, not meek requests for help.

God will be subservient to us if we simpley have faith that He will serve us and we take control of the wheel.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2017, 06:02:51 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2017, 04:02:47 AM »
Only one kind of person can have it both ways, and that's bisexuals. I don't think Jesus fits the bill, if his followers are to be believed.
My names are many, yet I am One.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2017, 04:48:11 AM »
Only one kind of person can have it both ways, and that's bisexuals. I don't think Jesus fits the bill, if his followers are to be believed.

Now I have Sammy Hagar in my head.  Cool. 8)
Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man...Thomas Paine

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #36 on: January 20, 2017, 05:22:26 AM »
Wouldn't god be hermaphrodite (SPL?).
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Online wheels5894

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2017, 05:50:29 AM »
Guys, while were are having a little fun, has anyone noticed the absence of Skep from the conversation? Had the topic got a bit too hard for him perhaps?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline stuffin

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2017, 12:42:29 PM »
Guys, while were are having a little fun, has anyone noticed the absence of Skep from the conversation? Had the topic got a bit too hard for him perhaps?

Yeah, comes by, throws us a piece of meat, we feast on it, and then he doesn't have the guts come back with coffee and a doughnut.
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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2017, 02:33:29 PM »
Skep was just trolling again.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2017, 02:47:19 PM »
Skeptic likes to make his religion up as he goes.....maybe we have a Joseph Smith or an L Ron Hubbard here.....we should have someone assemble his writings here,anyone up for the task? 8)
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2017, 03:09:12 PM »
Too boring and fruitless for me. Need a retired person on that task.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2017, 03:25:46 PM »
"You and your family are starving?  Haven't been able to get food for the past 3 days?  You want me to go out and get your meals for you or something?  You really should have thought of that before you became peasants."

I know this is somewhat off topic, but is that a reference to The Emperor's New Groove I see?  That's one of my favorite comedy movies. :)
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2017, 03:36:18 PM »
"You and your family are starving?  Haven't been able to get food for the past 3 days?  You want me to go out and get your meals for you or something?  You really should have thought of that before you became peasants."

I know this is somewhat off topic, but is that a reference to The Emperor's New Groove I see?  That's one of my favorite comedy movies. :)

As far as I am concerned The Emperor's New Groove is always on topic in any context whatsoever.

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go find some spinach puffs...
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2017, 04:20:06 PM »
Oh, I thought Skep followed the teaching of Russell et al... maybe I am wrong but he seems to follow the 'party line' most of the time.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #45 on: January 21, 2017, 02:04:18 AM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

I can imagine it would feel horrifying. Maybe God saves certain people because they are part of His plan, and have to do a special task in life. I can not know for sure, but that is certainly not an unreasonable thought.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #46 on: January 21, 2017, 04:06:28 AM »
Yes it is totally unreasonable, in fact its anti reason.

some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Online wheels5894

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #47 on: January 21, 2017, 05:28:37 AM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

I can imagine it would feel horrifying. Maybe God saves certain people because they are part of His plan, and have to do a special task in life. I can not know for sure, but that is certainly not an unreasonable thought.

Well, er.... yes, people might be saved or whatever as they are part of his plan. The thing then becomes a discussion of why bother praying?  Let's say god knows that David is going to horribly injured in a car crash but it is part of his plan that David is to survive, what is the point of his family praying that he survives - as it is part of god's plan and his [plan can't change?

Then again, if John is part of the same car crash but god has other plans for him, that his family praying for him is also worthless as god will do what he planned.

So, you are going to have to come up with some sort of defence of prayer altogether, Skep. You see in the Gospels we have Jesus promising that what a person prays for he will get and yet at the same time, we are told god is unchanging - meaning that whatever he has already decided in what will happen - so prayers for things will never have any effect as he can't change his mind about anything. However -

If we have the position that prayer can't work because god has already decided what he will do in each situation, we have another problem. Indeed, there are two possibilities I can think of - add other if  you like Skep. They are

1. The unchanging god has decided in advance what will happen to everyone (part of his plan) so praying will never change anything in our world.

OR

2. Since there is not a shred of evidence of a god, the fact that prayer never produces anything (except coincidences) seems to add weight to the idea that there really isn't a god.

Care to pick one, Skep?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline stuffin

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #48 on: January 21, 2017, 09:33:53 AM »
Skep - You  use the term God's Plan in your posts. It comes across as a "whitewash phrase" when you seem to lack an explanation.  I was wondering if you would share with us your knowledge about God's Plan? If we understood this better it would help us a great deal.
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We Kept His Seat Warm and The Table Set.

The Greatest Story Ever Told Was so Wrong, So Wrong.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #49 on: January 21, 2017, 12:37:50 PM »
Skep - You  use the term God's Plan in your posts. It comes across as a "whitewash phrase" when you seem to lack an explanation.  I was wondering if you would share with us your knowledge about God's Plan? If we understood this better it would help us a great deal.

Isn't this used in terms a master Plan for the whole universe - creation to end - to which an unchanging god adheres? If it does, then it rules out any point of praying and, of course, it removes free will for the poor humans on earth (and maybe on other planets in other solar systems as well).

If that isn't what it means then it seems to me to be a synonym for 'God's mysterious acts'  a phrase which we have oft times shown to be nothing more that 'I have no idea' wrapped up in pretty words!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Having it both ways
« Reply #50 on: Yesterday at 10:13:13 PM »
Skeptic..... my example wasn't really about 1 person surviving a plane crash out of 300....my example was a God that intervened at command(or plea) while ignoring others who plea(or command) at a time of dire need. The God works in mysterious ways cop out falls short when people who plead(or command) at a time of dire need are ignored,for a believer I would imagine that would be horrifying.

I can imagine it would feel horrifying. Maybe God saves certain people because they are part of His plan, and have to do a special task in life. I can not know for sure, but that is certainly not an unreasonable thought.
if he has special plans for these people,why would he put them in situations where they might die? When there are people out there who plead with God and get ignored,why does God concern himself with the .00000000001%of the people he has a'plan for' while ignoring 99.99999999% of the planet.....and if these .00000000001% of the population do absolutely nothing with the second chance God gives them,what then? Do you have evidence or even a story of someone doing something with their second chance?.....what have you done with your time since your intervention,other than falling on deaf ears here?....have you done ANYTHING of a spectacular nature we should know about?
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