Author Topic: Mike Pence / ISIS  (Read 396 times)

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Online Jag

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Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Reply #29 on: Yesterday at 01:15:56 PM »
^^^Yes, but my own first instinct on a new policy or such is to think of how it will affect ME. And I think that's perfectly normal. It takes a certain amount of (Thor forgive me for the new age-y phrasing) self-actualization to follow that, with a similar knee jerk response, to consider the impact on people who are not me. That doesn't make me selfish, or evil, it makes me normal. If you contextualize the situation, despite the consequences of their choices, they can easily be framed as completely reasonable for them.

People who see the world as dangerous WILL vote for the candidate that emphasizes power and deploys other-ing tactics, because that person makes them feel safe. It doesn't matter that their fears are statistically skewed. They aren't thinking about anyone else, they're worried first and foremost with their own well-being - this response is rational and reasonable. So if their fears are real, even if they are irrational, all the "unity" messages are only going to scare them more. To them, we're joining the 'others' who they see as dangerous. Obviously, we're too dense to see the danger. They truly believe this, just as strongly as I believe that they are wrong.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Reply #30 on: Yesterday at 02:00:03 PM »
Yeah, lot of good points made though... it angers me a bit that Screwtape essentially puts the weight on me to "either be a scientific polling organization" or else every personal experience I've had with liberalism run amok is invalid.  You're not a scientific polling organization either...  why shouldn't true personal experiences of myself and just about everyone I know enter into their decision making process about who to vote for?

I agree that everyone is a bit racist.  A buddy of mine whom I spar with is a black man and we've had plenty of these discussions in a friendly way.  He's a highly intelligent guy and has raised great points.   I'd never thought of myself as having a shred of racism... I'd worked for and with black men and women, I'd referred people for jobs of every race and gender, I'd dated people in serious relationships of all races.  I'd have married any of them had it worked out that way.  So how could I be racist?

But he has helped me to put myself in his shoes on certain things that I'd never experienced, which is good.   We've had a lot of great discussions without either of us ever feeling disrespected or blown off.  I think some of our discussions have helped him see things as well. 

He'd never do something as patently immature as having a list of people who's asses he's going to kick, even though he's actually brave enough to spar...

That said, it does annoy me, the attitude out there that anyone who is a white male is entitled...  if they're falsely accused of something, or fired, or have their reputation destroyed... well... it's too bad but, it just somehow evens out for the sins of other, totally different white males from the past.

How many white males are like me?  Sons of immigrants who came to the country poor, far after slavery ended, whose families experienced discrimination?  I grew up poor, my grandfather was poor as dirt... my mother's family was poor... nobody had anything handed to them.   I was the first person in my family to get a college degree.  In school, I experienced high degrees of homophobia, not because I was gay, but because I was small, and two closet-gay students decided to make me their whipping boy to help keep their sexual identity in the closet.

So I spent a few years being called a faggot, day in, and day out... but I'm a straight white male so... what can you do?  You suck it up, learn how to fight, and move forward.

There's no abuse shelters or activist groups... and it's politically incorrect to tell the truth.

There is a non-stop message in media that is constantly saying how strong and brave you are if you're in any kind of minority group... you can't possibly just be wrong, or if you abuse people... well, it's ok because, you suffered discrimination so it's ok to lash out against random targets who didn't do anything to you.

I'm glad guys like Bill Cosby, Kevin Spacey, Gerry Sandusky, Harvey Weinstein, are getting exposed for what they are...

But it's politically incorrect to mention that 3 of those 4 men are not heterosexual white males.

Anyone can be an abuser... but it muddies the waters when people do not follow the same definitions for what constitutes abuse.

If a person is underage and taken advantage of... that's abuse.
If a person speaks out and expresses their unwillingness to participate, and they are forced to suffer anything... that's abuse.

However, if a person feels pressured but simply doesn't stand up for themselves, or speak up.  That's not abuse, that's weakness.  We've all been there... we've all been bullied or intimidated, but it's our responsibility to speak up first... to show courage first, and if the person is told to back off and they don't, then bring the full weight of authority against them.

Nobody should have their career assassinated on an unproven allegation.

People who think that anyone who is white, and a male... came up easy and has special privileges didn't grow up poor, getting their ass beat, called every homophobic name in the book.  Everyone is fighting some kind of battle.

If the liberal tent went out to look for justice for everyone, (proven justice, fairness) there wouldn't be a backlash.

If the attitude is this...   "Anyone who voted for Trump is a racist nazi because they support a guy I view as a racist nazi... they're not worth debating... I have a list of people whose asses I want to kick."

All that attitude is going to do is help elect more guys like Trump.

Don't shoot the messenger.

I like to think that I'm well along the path to erasing unintentional racist language from my speech, but I still trip and fall on my face often enough. And I'm making a genuine effort to stop! It's all around us, and so insidious we rarely notice it as such. I could spend days on this topic, but will instead say that I can find really good examples if there is interest in specifics.

Racism is real, and most of us fall into it at least once in a while, regardless of our own race

100% agree.   I've had these discussions with people I've dated and my friends.   Interestingly, in college, the only person who gave us racist shit for being in an inter-racial relationship was a puerto rican guy who said all kinds of horrific racist things to us in front of my girlfriend, and we almost got into a fight over it.

My mother, who grew up in the racially divided 1960s, didn't like me dating inter racially, but she at least tried her best to grow past her bigoted views, so we gave her space to try to have her own personal growth.

I probably have some bias to me, in that... I haven't personally experienced what it's like to be afraid to be pulled over by cops just because I'm black... so I don't quite feel the pain the way I would if I personally experienced that fear.   But in all ways that matter, I can't think of a time that I've ever actively discriminated against anyone.

Anyone who tried to deny that there was BLATANT sexism in the campaign is fucking blind. I mean that with complete sincerity. Some of the attacks on her were so fucking sexist it was nauseating. Why the fuck did anyone care about her clothing, or her make up, or how much sleep she was getting - her looks, her looks, her looks, over and over and over. And it was everywhere, about everything, while the male GOP candidates debated dick size on national television. What. The. Fuck.

And let's not forget two groups of people in all this - the men who would DIE before casting a vote for a woman, and the women who feel the same way.

100% agreed.   Hillary... I didn't like her as a candidate but I liked her much better than Trump.  The people who'd never vote for a woman are a problem.

If you think about the kinds of things people focused on for either candidate, it was stupid and immature...   hand size?  dick size?   Can you imagine if the size of Hillary's sex organs were mentioned in a debate?   What Hillary wore?   Trump's awful hair?

I wish Hillary had walked out wearing exactly whatever the fuck she wanted to wear... the fact that she spent huge money on a fashion consultant... frankly she should've done an interview at a gym in her workout gear, and fuck anyone who didn't like it.   I'd have actually liked Hillary more if she didn't cater so much to how she felt she had to look.

It's not like Trump hired a hair stylist right?   He just wore whatever the fuck that thing on his head is...  and he's never changed it in spite of how much crap he's gotten about it.

As far as having to look a certain way...   it's stupid.   When I was dating, even though I'm a fit guy, look young for my age, spar, have a good career, I can't tell you how many times I was passed over for not being tall enough, or being bald...

Everyone judges on looks, men, women, everyone.   It's just a question of me having enough self confidence to continue looking until I found a woman who likes me for who I am.

For ladies, they should do the same...  screw the hollywood image of a model and keep looking until they find a guy who likes them exactly how they are.   My wife isn't perfect to everyone, but she's perfect to me.

There were moments in Hillary's campaign when... I was truly inspired by her.  When she talked about Martin Shkreli...  or called out... Vangent? 

I thought...  FINALLY, the Democrats are starting to fix the actual problem with Health Care!

Instead of giving away free healthcare and passing on 100% of the cost to the lower middle class... why not fix the problem of price gouging?

$250 for an ounce of eye drops?

$25,000 for one week for a teenager in a psyche unit where they eat spaghettios and talk to a therapist for one hour?

$450 for a knee brace?

$10,000 for a rabies vaccination?

$5,000 a night for a stay in a hospital?

$30,000 for a stint in rehab?

Are you kidding me?   And the employees working at the rehab unit are making $15-20 an hour?  People are marking shit up 1000%...  fix THAT first...   and then maybe Socialized Healthcare will work.   Make it illegal to mark something up more than X% and throw guys like Martin Shkreli or the CEO of Vangent in PRISON.

I think there are many points on which we all agree.   I certainly don't want Trump in office.   We're all here, repeatedly debating guys like Skeptic... if it's worth debating Skeptic, why isn't it worth debating swing voters who switched from Obama to Trump.

The reason I can even share these arguments is because when I talk to neighbors who voted for Trump, I'm sharing with them all the reasons why I think they made a mistake.

However, I do firmly believe that Liberals can do a far better job being inclusive to all (not just minorities), at going after blind justice rather than the appearance of justice...   of going after the root of why healthcare costs so much before handing it away for "free".

I can't wait for there to be a woman president, but I hope when there is, it's a female who doesn't give two shits about hiring a fashion consultant.   I hope she's confidently her best self at all times, whether her views are popular or not... I hope she has charisma like Obama, and I hope if she wants to build a new social program, she doesn't build it over a corrupt and rotten foundation of price gouging that remains unchanged.

No social program can ever be built over corrupt pricing practices.   It'll always fail.   Monopolies and price gouging are supposed to be illegal, why not enforce this?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Reply #31 on: Yesterday at 02:08:51 PM »

Shkreli actually IS in prison.    There's something I'm 100% behind raising taxes to pay for...   stop the price gouging scam artists, put a full time, fully dedicated organization out there whose ONLY job is to make sure these CEOs aren't violating existing law.

People could actually afford to buy medication, even if they didn't have coverage...  put fear into the hearts of the greedy price gougers, especially in medicine... and reward people for doing the right thing.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Reply #32 on: Today at 09:51:16 AM »
Yes, Trump voters include a significant number of racist individuals, and a not insignificant number of voters who were willing to ignore HIS racism in favor of whatever reasons they had for not voting for Hillary.

to me, the ignoring of someone else's racism when one would get a benefit from doing so makes them directly racists.   they were willing to sell out any concept of equality.  it's them above everybody.

I think both of you are missing the BIG PICTURE while focusing on the micro.


I don't think anyone that voted for Trump would deny racism exists among individuals. I think what pissed them off was claiming our NATION was racist, especially after our first black, actually mixed, President. That holds especially true for two-time Obama voters that voted for Trump. There are NO special laws that force companies to hire white people. White men that need jobs, with a better resume, are sometimes turned down in order to meet a diversity quota.  Black Athletes and movie stars are making millions. Oprah is a billionaire, supported by a lot of white women. There are successful black academics.

There are scholarships for African Americans, and FAFSA for all poor people.

Gangster projects are full of drugs and violence--> It's not racist to call that out.

Black guys DO kill each other at an alarming rate. Care about each other--> is not racist.

White priveledge--> undermines  the struggle of white people. There's no way a white person has had it worse than any black person--> understandably offends many poor white people who grew up without a father or were abused by their parents.

Nobody here is accounting for globalization, and how that has affected many ONCE middle class families.  Both parties are responsible for globalization.  America first! Undo NAFTA!

The way scientists challenge God and Christianity and builds the robots that now replace good hard-working American's jobs, has to play a role in climate change denial--> Get out of Paris agreement.


They actually do put a stress on resources, especially housing where supply and demand raises costs for struggling AMERICANS. Landlords can rent to them and not worry about getting sued for their shitty trailors. It actually is wrong to hire them and pay them under-the-table and/or pay them less than minimum wage. I will not be convinced that both liberals and conservative business owners do not participate in taking advantage of illegal immigrants. They do bring drugs, especially the illegal immigrants. Coming here without visas IS ILLEGAL. Some are violent criminals. Open-borders is a Jesus loving-love thy neighbor- bunch of woo woo. Hillary was for Open Borders. They do get welfare benefits for their anchor-babies. (I worked in a Dr's office) I witnessed it with my own two eyes. How many Trump supporters also witness it with their own two eyes. Do not make the mistake that every employee at medical facilities are liberal Democrats.  How do you know their parents are illegal? They cannot speak a word of English, a requirement for legal status (I admit im not sure here, people besides myself believe it) (I will fact check this and share the link in another post) No I don't have a problem with the term anchor-baby; that's what they are.


The right is not wrong when they say if any American works hard they can be successful. It's an internal vs external psychology. Conservatives want people to believe they DO have some control over their lives while the left wants to give control to the government. I say it takes some of both. We have laws that protect minorities.

While I agree with Jag that there are isms at play, the worst and most under-recognized ism is: classism. America first. Get out of NAFTA. Renege on Paris agreement. No Islam refugees. Get out of Iran deal. Tariffs on imports. Build a wall. All that comes from wealth inequality, that's what I'm calling classism. Both parties have driven policies that make globalism the threat that it is to people who just want a fucking job. Globalism has driven down the value of American workers, supply and demand. Not enough demand for workers; corps get by with paying shitty wages.

The divisive two-party system makes it real fucking easy to scapegoat the other party while BOTH are to blame. That is why we have the extreme right and the extreme left, thanks to classism (IMHO).

Let's not forget how our journalists made it seem like Hillary had practically no chance of losing AND how that played a roll in people not too excited by Hillary stayed home instead of voting.

You cannot have this conversation without acknowledging that the two-party system coupled with our electoral college tries to guilt trip Independents/third-parties into voting for them less the greater of two evils prevail.

As long as we have the two-party system that divides the people of this nation we are the Divided States of America. United we shall stand; divided we shall fall.

Ignoring/banning people you disagree with has political fallback, whether it's on a forum like this or FB or Twitter. My rationale for this belief is Indepedents are now the majority party while ideologues cling to what's left of the two-party system. Social media, for those of us who view the division as a serious fucking problem, exposes the hypocritical behavior from both parties.

I'm going to be forced to vote for a God damn Democrat to get rid of fucking Trump, and that pissed me the fuck off.

Last but not least, people are still pissed off over 911 and the many terrorists attacks since then around the globe. It is hypocritical to be feminist and support Islamic beliefs. Genital mutilation happens right here in this country, possibly by the so called moderates of that religion. It is not irrational fear, a phobia, to not want more of that in this country. Islamophobia is an irrational term. Wanting to take in 100,000 Islamic refugees drove the nail into Clinton's coffin.

Drain the swamp

Oh yea, that brought a lot of people on board. It's something that needs to be done, but Trump sure ain't going to do it. The message was sent regardless.


Drove up premiums no matter how you slice it. What pissed off conservatives more than anything was the Individual Mandate. Repeal and replace worked in 2010, and it worked in 2016. It set a precedence for shoving partisan politics through. Optics do matter, especially for people that do not care to clear the clutter.

Gun control

People were damn sure fired up over gun control. Still haven't spilled enough blood to move them.

I did not vote for Clinton, I voted against Trump. -->notice how I used language there?

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Online kevinagain

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Re: Mike Pence / ISIS
« Reply #33 on: Today at 11:26:23 AM »

As long as we have the two-party system that divides the people of this nation we are the Divided States of America. United we shall stand; divided we shall fall.

theres a lot of truth in ^^^that. a two party system automatically tends to polarize thinking on issues. in parliamentary systems, a third or fourth viable party requirez winners to compromise in order to form a government. i dont thi k you end up with as much extremism. on tbe other hand, those systems tend to suppress the views of citizens who dont fit tbe center.

id like to see a third party develop in america, even so. i havent voted in 25 years, mostly because my views arent reprezented. the last party i was registeted with were tbe greens. i registered again this year because my wife is running for congress. so we'll see.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:28:39 AM by kevinagain »
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