Author Topic: Jesus never healed anyone  (Read 91 times)

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Online nogodsforme

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Jesus never healed anyone
« on: Yesterday at 06:25:04 PM »
What happens in the bible not exactly healing. As a science-based person, religious claims of magical healings drive me nuts. Like Astreja and many others here, I get so tired of religions giving prayer and gods the credit for the hard work and dedication of scientific researchers, doctors, dentists, surgeons, nurses, pharmacists, technicians and on and on.

Jesus did not heal anyone. Because Jesus never performed any examination or made a diagnosis. Someone shows up describing what appears to be a health problem and Jesus somehow, magically, makes the problem go away. No control groups of people with the same symptoms to see if they also got better, even without any interaction with Jesus. There is no explanation other than he is Jesus, he is really special, and sometimes he is able to heal people.  He does not even have to know he is healing someone. Just being near him is enough. Jesus does not have to lay hands or pray to god to heal people-- he is like the Chuck Norris of making people better.[1]

Example: I remember this one from my early teen years (understandably) the story of the woman with the non-stop menstruation. She touched Jesus' robe and the bleeding magically stopped. But why was she bleeding? It matters, because different causes would require Jesus to magically manipulate different cells or whatever in the woman's body. How old was she? Did she have cancer of the uterus or cervix? Endometriosis? Fibroids? Did Jesus do a heavenly hysterectomy? A divine D and C? Or what? We do not know if the condition was actually cured or healed because we do not know what was wrong, or what Jesus did. We are only told that the symptoms were alleviated. There are no follow-up visits to see if the symptoms came back, or if the lady died a month later of the same thing.

If you look at the history of medicine, the "healings" of Jesus exactly match the non-spiritual, non-magical medical treatments of the era before modern scientific medicine. People had no way of looking inside the body with x-rays or doing any type of tests to see what was actually wrong. Dissection of the dead was not allowed in many societies. Medicine-- with a few exceptions like the medieval Muslims who did some scientific investigations--was flying blind.[2]

Practitioners, midwives, shamans and healers treated symptoms with whatever they had to hand, and were mostly relying on the placebo effect of doing something rather than nothing. By using trial and error, preparations of precious stones or metals, herbs that worked on animals, "like treats like" and so on, some people got better.[3]  If the symptoms went away, the person was cured.

That is why the most effective popular medicines of ancient times were narcotics like opium or depressants like wine.  In small amounts, they did little harm and sometimes did good. This was stuff that quieted coughs, made people feel better, calmed people down and basically made people go to sleep. Rest, allowing the body to fight infection and repair itself, is often the best thing for many illnesses. Especially if you can't really diagnose or cure the underlying condition.

Here is what is telling and leads me to think that if there really was a Jesus who did some healings, they were not really miracles. They were at best, harmless placebos and at worse, shameful trickery like "psychic surgery".[4] Jesus did not cure all people with leprosy. That would have been a miracle. He cured one leper. That could have been a trick. He did not heal all women with bleeding. That would have been a miracle. He cured one woman. That could have been a trick. He did not heal all amputees. That would have been a miracle.He put one guy's ear back on. That could have been a trick.

Jesus did not eliminate all smallpox or all cancer or all of anything. That would have been impossible to fake or lie about. That would have been different from all previous faith healers. That would have made news all over the world, as smallpox disappears from Africa, China and Europe the same day as Jesus heals it in the Middle East.

So, a big negatory on the Jesus healings.  :P
 1. http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/chuck-norris-top-50-facts
 2. People first diagnosed diabetes by tasting the patient's urine to see if it was sweet! Yech. And there was nothing much to be done about it anyway, until the discovery of insulin.
 3. Like Fiji pointed out on the kama sutra thread. Something that looked like a body part was assumed to treat conditions that affected that part. Rhino horn, the original--and worthless--little blue pill.
 4.  http://skepdic.com/psurgery.html
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:04:36 PM »
It's like how the "feeding of the thousands" can be explained by people sharing what food they did have, rather than the magical creation of food.  The intention of the story is to make people think that Jesus magically made the food multiply, even though the reality is almost certainly different.

Offline Nam

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 07:40:49 PM »
I never believed that Jesus story literally (the feeding of thousands). I took it to mean if you plant a seed, you'll grow enough food to feed thousands (or more).

Sadly, most Christians I know personally take it literally as so many other unbelievable verses throughout the book.

The Bible may have lessons to be learned. Just don't ask a Christian to explain any of them to you.

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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 10:40:55 PM »
What happens in the bible not exactly healing. As a science-based person, religious claims of magical healings drive me nuts. Like Astreja and many others here, I get so tired of religions giving prayer and gods the credit for the hard work and dedication of scientific researchers, doctors, dentists, surgeons, nurses, pharmacists, technicians and on and on.

Jesus did not heal anyone. Because Jesus never performed any examination or made a diagnosis. Someone shows up describing what appears to be a health problem and Jesus somehow, magically, makes the problem go away. No control groups of people with the same symptoms to see if they also got better, even without any interaction with Jesus. There is no explanation other than he is Jesus, he is really special, and sometimes he is able to heal people.  He does not even have to know he is healing someone. Just being near him is enough. Jesus does not have to lay hands or pray to god to heal people-- he is like the Chuck Norris of making people better.[1]

Example: I remember this one from my early teen years (understandably) the story of the woman with the non-stop menstruation. She touched Jesus' robe and the bleeding magically stopped. But why was she bleeding? It matters, because different causes would require Jesus to magically manipulate different cells or whatever in the woman's body. How old was she? Did she have cancer of the uterus or cervix? Endometriosis? Fibroids? Did Jesus do a heavenly hysterectomy? A divine D and C? Or what? We do not know if the condition was actually cured or healed because we do not know what was wrong, or what Jesus did. We are only told that the symptoms were alleviated. There are no follow-up visits to see if the symptoms came back, or if the lady died a month later of the same thing.

If you look at the history of medicine, the "healings" of Jesus exactly match the non-spiritual, non-magical medical treatments of the era before modern scientific medicine. People had no way of looking inside the body with x-rays or doing any type of tests to see what was actually wrong. Dissection of the dead was not allowed in many societies. Medicine-- with a few exceptions like the medieval Muslims who did some scientific investigations--was flying blind.[2]

Practitioners, midwives, shamans and healers treated symptoms with whatever they had to hand, and were mostly relying on the placebo effect of doing something rather than nothing. By using trial and error, preparations of precious stones or metals, herbs that worked on animals, "like treats like" and so on, some people got better.[3]  If the symptoms went away, the person was cured.

That is why the most effective popular medicines of ancient times were narcotics like opium or depressants like wine.  In small amounts, they did little harm and sometimes did good. This was stuff that quieted coughs, made people feel better, calmed people down and basically made people go to sleep. Rest, allowing the body to fight infection and repair itself, is often the best thing for many illnesses. Especially if you can't really diagnose or cure the underlying condition.

Here is what is telling and leads me to think that if there really was a Jesus who did some healings, they were not really miracles. They were at best, harmless placebos and at worse, shameful trickery like "psychic surgery".[4] Jesus did not cure all people with leprosy. That would have been a miracle. He cured one leper. That could have been a trick. He did not heal all women with bleeding. That would have been a miracle. He cured one woman. That could have been a trick. He did not heal all amputees. That would have been a miracle.He put one guy's ear back on. That could have been a trick.

Jesus did not eliminate all smallpox or all cancer or all of anything. That would have been impossible to fake or lie about. That would have been different from all previous faith healers. That would have made news all over the world, as smallpox disappears from Africa, China and Europe the same day as Jesus heals it in the Middle East.

So, a big negatory on the Jesus healings.  :P
 1. http://www.chucknorrisfacts.com/chuck-norris-top-50-facts
 2. People first diagnosed diabetes by tasting the patient's urine to see if it was sweet! Yech. And there was nothing much to be done about it anyway, until the discovery of insulin.
 3. Like Fiji pointed out on the kama sutra thread. Something that looked like a body part was assumed to treat conditions that affected that part. Rhino horn, the original--and worthless--little blue pill.
 4.  http://skepdic.com/psurgery.html

Jesus didn't cure EVERYONE because that is not part of the plan. The plan involves getting rid of that stuff later, which the Bible supports. The point of Jesus' healings is to prove that He is from God. There is no trick if Jesus puts a man's ear back on. The ear was clearly off the body.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 10:42:53 PM »
It's like how the "feeding of the thousands" can be explained by people sharing what food they did have, rather than the magical creation of food.  The intention of the story is to make people think that Jesus magically made the food multiply, even though the reality is almost certainly different.

5 loaves and 2 fish. That's all the Lord had. Perhaps if everyone eats 0.0000000000000001 millimeter of bread, you would have a point. But, how realistic is that? Someone eats that tiny a piece of bread and gets full? Don't be silly.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 10:46:37 PM »
It's called a "metaphor", Skep.  The Bible uses these to give lessons.  You ought to go to a Bible Study sometime.
Please don't pull out the faith-as-science card on me.  If you are gun virgins, admit it.   Your entire body of knowledge comes from the news and statistics.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 10:51:48 PM »
It's called a "metaphor", Skep.  The Bible uses these to give lessons.  You ought to go to a Bible Study sometime.

I thought you guys claimed to not know what is a metaphor and what's not a metaphor?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 10:55:31 PM »
I was just offering a plausible explanation for something that doesn't make sense in literal terms.  And you've shown no reliable method for discerning literal from metaphorical statements in the Bible, either.  This is more of a problem for you, since you're the one actually citing the stuff as true in the first place.
Please don't pull out the faith-as-science card on me.  If you are gun virgins, admit it.   Your entire body of knowledge comes from the news and statistics.

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 10:58:54 PM »
I was just offering a plausible explanation for something that doesn't make sense in literal terms.  And you've shown no reliable method for discerning literal from metaphorical statements in the Bible, either.  This is more of a problem for you, since you're the one actually citing the stuff as true in the first place.

When you have an all-powerful God at the helm you can't simply say, "That doesn't make sense." Since God created the physical laws of the universe, He can also break 'em.

Imagine sitting inside a windowless house and saying "There's nothing outside these walls!" That would be pure silliness. Just like it's pure silliness to think there's nothing outside of the universe.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 11:01:52 PM »
If that was true, it'd apply outside the stories, too.  We should have no reliable physics, chemistry, etc.  Engineering should be impossible.  After all, we can't depend on things operating according to physical principles, so long as an all-powerful God is at the helm...
Please don't pull out the faith-as-science card on me.  If you are gun virgins, admit it.   Your entire body of knowledge comes from the news and statistics.

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #10 on: Today at 12:05:27 AM »
When you have an all-powerful God at the helm you can't simply say, "That doesn't make sense." Since God created the physical laws of the universe, He can also break 'em.

And yet, the second anybody asks why your "all-powerful god" never does so outside of fanciful ancient tales, you guys start spawning all sorts of explanations of why it's just sooooooo haaaaard for the poor little guy to do anything, and it's way, way, way to much to ask, like expecting a toddler to storm the beaches of Normandy and defeat the Nazis single-handed.  And then follow up with the "two boats and a helicopter" joke, which really should be in the Bible instead of all those ridiculous miracle stories.
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #11 on: Today at 12:10:38 AM »
When you have an all-powerful God at the helm you can't simply say, "That doesn't make sense." Since God created the physical laws of the universe, He can also break 'em.

And yet, the second anybody asks why your "all-powerful god" never does so outside of fanciful ancient tales, you guys start spawning all sorts of explanations of why it's just sooooooo haaaaard for the poor little guy to do anything, and it's way, way, way to much to ask, like expecting a toddler to storm the beaches of Normandy and defeat the Nazis single-handed.  And then follow up with the "two boats and a helicopter" joke, which really should be in the Bible instead of all those ridiculous miracle stories.

It's not hard for God to do that stuff. He could prove Himself to you right now. But, that's not the way of the Lord. Sometimes you gotta use the brain that He gave you.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #12 on: Today at 12:15:17 AM »
If that was true, it'd apply outside the stories, too.  We should have no reliable physics, chemistry, etc.  Engineering should be impossible.  After all, we can't depend on things operating according to physical principles, so long as an all-powerful God is at the helm...

All of that stuff is reliable because it works every day according to the laws God made. If God one day wants to suspend the laws of physics, He can.

If God decides to change the E=MC2 equation tomorrow, that doesn't mean it's invalid today.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Jesus never healed anyone
« Reply #13 on: Today at 12:23:50 AM »
It's not hard for God to do that stuff. He could prove Himself to you right now. But, that's not the way of the Lord.

Hahaha, yeah.  I'm so awesome I could take on Mohammad Ali, Bruce Lee, Mike Tyson, and Chuck Norris in their prime, all at the same time and whup 'em all with one hand behind my back--it's just that, fighting isn't my "way."  So that's why I'm not an MMA champ or anything.

Sometimes you gotta use the brain that He gave you.

Did that.  It's how I found out "he" didn't give me my brain after all, and became an atheist.
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