Author Topic: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?  (Read 69 times)

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Offline Greatest I am

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How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator. Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love. They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself. The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts. Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

Regards
DL

Offline jdawg70

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 07:16:23 PM »
As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

Welcome back Greatest I am.

I suspect your bigger problem is that what it is you believe is incredibly nebulous, even to you.

Your description of what apotheosis from here:
Apotheosis is just finding that there is a Jacob's ladder, esoterically speaking, and finding that you are on it and that there is an unseen aspect to our reality. That is why I continue to seek God. Not the God described in scriptures but our true God which is just the best set of rules to love by. I seek an ideal.

Makes your statement:
Quote
It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher
more or less incoherent, or at least aspects of it are incoherent I think.  And what you are trying to convince other Christians of "having Satan's grip loosened" is predicated on in what way 'apotheosis' helped you go up one rung (presumably you loosening Satan's grip would be very, very similar to those Christians 'going up a rung on Jacob's ladder'.  But I don't see how that can work, insofar as 'apotheosis' seems to be recognizing the ladder (that you already recognized you were on already? See that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.) and accepting that there is an unseen aspect to your reality.  But...like, the vast majority of people of all faiths or none at all recognize an 'unseen reality'.  That can be expressed as some jazz like Mysterious WaysTM, or 'spiritual realm', or simply recognition of 'not knowing everything'.

What you describe as 'apotheosis' - as something that helped you to ascend Jacob's ladder[1] - a whole bunch of people, including those you're trying to convince, are already there.  Not everyone of course but at best you are trying to convince people of something they already accept, but just in some different language (Jacob's ladder, Parfait, whatever) which appears to have exactly zero utility in helping make communication about this stuff easier.  Basically, I think you want people to accept a lot more wootastic terminology to give some air of mystery, which you're mistaking as deepness or closeness to truth, to your beliefs.  It's a way to convince yourself that what you believe is closer to the truth than others.  It works pretty well for that, and can certainly be easier than critically trying to define and analyze what constitutes your beliefs beyond symbolic, nebulous, vague language (Jacob's ladder, perfection, 'deeper knowing of himself', apotheosis[2]).

Basically, you're really not very clear on what you're trying to convince others of, but you know what words you want'em to use.
 1. Linguistically cute, but this kind of analogy or simile or metaphor or illustration can only go so far and eventually you're going to have to describe it or define it in different, less nebulous terms.
 2. In this case I personally think you're either just plain misusing the word or you've co-opted it with a very different definition than is understood by most other people for the sake of cranking the woo up, thereby increasing the sense of mystery, blah blah blah.  I think you get it.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
« Reply #2 on: Today at 09:12:19 AM »
GIA, I hate to tell you but you seem to be a theist too since you apparently believe in the Christian god and Jesus Christ.  There is also the problem that you pick and choose what you want to claim JC taught.  This supposed "messiah" has said, per the bible, that those who don't accept it should be brought before it and murdered.

It's nothing new that a theist would make up their own version of a religion and of a god. Yours may be less malignant than most but it's just as imaginary.

A god isn't "the best set of rules to love by".  The term god has a certain meaning.  If you mean "the best set of rules to love by" then say that.  Invoking a "god" is pointless if indeed you don't believe in one.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
« Reply #3 on: Today at 10:28:47 AM »
As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught. It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews. Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

Welcome back Greatest I am.

I suspect your bigger problem is that what it is you believe is incredibly nebulous, even to you.

Your description of what apotheosis from here:
Apotheosis is just finding that there is a Jacob's ladder, esoterically speaking, and finding that you are on it and that there is an unseen aspect to our reality. That is why I continue to seek God. Not the God described in scriptures but our true God which is just the best set of rules to love by. I seek an ideal.

Makes your statement:
Quote
It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher
more or less incoherent, or at least aspects of it are incoherent I think.  And what you are trying to convince other Christians of "having Satan's grip loosened" is predicated on in what way 'apotheosis' helped you go up one rung (presumably you loosening Satan's grip would be very, very similar to those Christians 'going up a rung on Jacob's ladder'.  But I don't see how that can work, insofar as 'apotheosis' seems to be recognizing the ladder (that you already recognized you were on already? See that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.) and accepting that there is an unseen aspect to your reality.  But...like, the vast majority of people of all faiths or none at all recognize an 'unseen reality'.  That can be expressed as some jazz like Mysterious WaysTM, or 'spiritual realm', or simply recognition of 'not knowing everything'.

What you describe as 'apotheosis' - as something that helped you to ascend Jacob's ladder[1] - a whole bunch of people, including those you're trying to convince, are already there.  Not everyone of course but at best you are trying to convince people of something they already accept, but just in some different language (Jacob's ladder, Parfait, whatever) which appears to have exactly zero utility in helping make communication about this stuff easier.  Basically, I think you want people to accept a lot more wootastic terminology to give some air of mystery, which you're mistaking as deepness or closeness to truth, to your beliefs.  It's a way to convince yourself that what you believe is closer to the truth than others.  It works pretty well for that, and can certainly be easier than critically trying to define and analyze what constitutes your beliefs beyond symbolic, nebulous, vague language (Jacob's ladder, perfection, 'deeper knowing of himself', apotheosis[2]).

Basically, you're really not very clear on what you're trying to convince others of, but you know what words you want'em to use.
 1. Linguistically cute, but this kind of analogy or simile or metaphor or illustration can only go so far and eventually you're going to have to describe it or define it in different, less nebulous terms.
 2. In this case I personally think you're either just plain misusing the word or you've co-opted it with a very different definition than is understood by most other people for the sake of cranking the woo up, thereby increasing the sense of mystery, blah blah blah.  I think you get it.

You might remember that I wrote this for theists and use terms they might understand or associate with.

I want them to recognize their tribal natures as leading them away from better moral thinking.

That basically applies to everyone as exemplified by the present situation where Republicans and most Americans are not dealing well with all the sexual misconduct happening as we speak in the U.S. which is centered on Trump and Moore.

Republicans especially are showing the same moral mind set as pedophile priests have.

Regards
DL 

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
« Reply #4 on: Today at 10:43:47 AM »
Quote
GIA, I hate to tell you but you seem to be a theist too since you apparently believe in the Christian god and Jesus Christ.


Not so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

To me, Jesus is just an archetypal good man and as Joseph Campbell thinks, is just one of what he dubbed, hero of 1000 faces.

Our myths were written to put against that Christian myths before those fools began reading their myths literally and becoming idol worshipers.

Our myths are not our beliefs.

Quote
There is also the problem that you pick and choose what you want to claim JC taught.  This supposed "messiah" has said, per the bible, that those who don't accept it should be brought before it and murdered.

It does indeed. They show the wrong Jesus so as to have a get out of hell free card. A stupid idea.

This is the Jesus we recognize and follow as he tries to free us from religious dogma while the Christian Jesus wants to slave us to it.

The Jesus I follow, his way that is, is exemplified by these.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

This link expands on this view.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Quote
It's nothing new that a theist would make up their own version of a religion and of a god. Yours may be less malignant than most but it's just as imaginary.

Thanks and indeed, we all make up our own Gods, even you, if you allow yourself to personify the best rules and laws to live by which is what you are following. Those ideals, if you could find a person expressing them would be your idol or God. Please accept my synonyms so that we do not get into semantics.

Quote
A god isn't "the best set of rules to love by".  The term god has a certain meaning.  If you mean "the best set of rules to love by" then say that.  Invoking a "god" is pointless if indeed you don't believe in one.

In a sense I do, that is why I chose the religion I did, but as you will know, the God I follow is called (I am), and yes, I mean me, just as you follow an ideal that I would call the best rules and laws to live by. I just personify it. You are your God and so am I.

Regards
DL


Offline jdawg70

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Re: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 12:23:27 PM »
You might remember that I wrote this for theists and use terms they might understand or associate with.
Well that's the rub.  Just because they associate with terms does not mean they understand those terms.  Much like you and terms like 'apotheosis' or 'Jacob's ladder', the terms give very squishy emotive feelings but fail to mean anything consistent.  If you and whatever theist you are talking to can get on the same page as to what certain terms and words mean, I guess you can probably proceed but I really think you're just not going to be on the same page.  Not in terms of things like 'sin' or 'Satan' or 'god' or apotheosis' or 'Parfait' - I think that whatever you're thinking regarding those terms is going to be rather different than what some of these Christians you're talking to are thinking.

Quote
I want them to recognize their tribal natures as leading them away from better moral thinking.
A laudable goal.  Have you tried starting at discussing what morality is with these people?  You're taking the position that some of these people know that god is immoral, which I don't think is true most of the time.  Have you ever considered that what they think of as 'moral' does not match what you think of as 'moral'?

Quote
That basically applies to everyone as exemplified by the present situation where Republicans and most Americans are not dealing well with all the sexual misconduct happening as we speak in the U.S. which is centered on Trump and Moore.

Republicans especially are showing the same moral mind set as pedophile priests have.
Are they showing the same moral mind set as the pedophile priests, or the people who are protecting the pedophile priests?

And let us be cautious here: the 'sexual misconduct happening' as we speak in the US is most certainly not centered on Trump and Moore.  At the very least it ought not be centered on those two.  Those two should be the focus of a lot of attention for a lot of reasons, and the stuff about sexual misconduct is definitely a part of that.  But if we're talking about 'sexual misconduct' here in this US, it is most definitely beyond just Trump and Moore and political parties.  That one is an endemic issue.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/