Author Topic: Noah's Island???  (Read 278 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Noah's Island???
« on: April 28, 2016, 08:16:26 AM »
Ok lets say, Noah's ark had all the animals and all the food required to maintain them for 7 months to a year.  It took many months for the water to subside far enough to allow the ark to land.   It landed on a mountain right???  Now said island is surrounded by water thousands of feet higher than sea level.  I believe that this could be defined as an island so all the animals disembark from the ark to repopulate the world and start their epic journeys to the 4 corners of the earth.  But at the moment they reside on an island a few thousand acres at best.   This island has no trees, bushes, grass, or food chain of any type.  Even if noah began to plant crops on the top of this mountain top island with no soil, it would take months for plants to sprout and grow substantially enough to begin feeding some animals.  A single cow takes acres of good established grasslands to feed.  So substandard soil might even makes things worse. 

even as the waters subside over a period of months and years it will continually expose barren lands slowly most if not all plants having been destroyed and most if not all seeds no longer viable, noah would have to begin farming acre after acre of exposed land into forests, grasslands, savannas... 

So religious people,  assuming that one can fit millions of species on an ark, and release them upon landing, where do they go on a tiny island with no plant life.

8 people also could barely provide enough food for perhaps 100 humans by hand means how did they sew enough food for all the animals and themselves for the years it would take for the islands to all be exposed into continents.  each day of receding water exposes exponentially more land.  8 people subsistence farming would not have much time to transplant the exposed arable land.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2016, 11:05:54 AM »
So religious people,  assuming that one can fit millions of species on an ark, and release them upon landing, where do they go on a tiny island with no plant life.

One thing is that he didn't take two of every species.  He took two of every "kind", which as far as I am aware is never defined in the scriptures. 

Another thing is that vegetation was already growing before they left the ark so I don't know how much farming was actually necessary.  (Gen 8:11)

Also considering the direct interaction of Jehovah in the situation and Noah's closeness to him, divine help cannot be ruled out.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2016, 11:24:08 AM »


One thing is that he didn't take two of every species.  He took two of every "kind", which as far as I am aware is never defined in the scriptures. 
First of I am not sure if Kind is ever defined.  But Even using Hovind math, this still leaves us with conservatively 17,000 animals. 


Another thing is that vegetation was already growing before they left the ark so I don't know how much farming was actually necessary.  (Gen 8:11)

So they remained on the ark for Several more months?  We are up to 1 year I think, and we have olive trees?  I guess if we suspend disbelief and just use magic I guess we have an answer there.  Otherwise.  Olive trees take years to grow even under ideal conditions.  Sitting on the ark for an 4 months after coming to rest does not exactly leave much time to grow vegetation.  So is it your suggestion that god used magic and poofed all the vegetation back to former levels across the globe?

***Side question where did the water drain off to or evaporate to?***

Also considering the direct interaction of Jehovah in the situation and Noah's closeness to him, divine help cannot be ruled out.

If Magic is the answer I would have to say that the flood seems like a waste of effort.  I would think that a more logical method that did not require the suffering of billions and billions of animals dying by drowning might have included simply poofing the evil humans and nephylim out of existence.  God seems to work through semi-natural means like flooding and then resorts to magically allowing trees to survive 30,000 feet below the surface of the brackish water for a year.


Very vexing.

Offline Merlin

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2016, 11:38:54 AM »
One thing is that he didn't take two of every species.  He took two of every "kind", which as far as I am aware is never defined in the scriptures. 

"kind" and "species" are interchangeable here.  If it wasn't on the arc, then it was drowned and does not exist today.  So there had to be two of each animal on the arc, except for the so-called clean animals.  There were seven of each clean animal.  Go read it again.

Quote
Another thing is that vegetation was already growing before they left the ark so I don't know how much farming was actually necessary.  (Gen 8:11)

...then what were they eating while in the arc, waiting for the vegetation to grow outside?

Quote
Also considering the direct interaction of Jehovah in the situation and Noah's closeness to him, divine help cannot be ruled out.

OK, so it was God MagicTM? Jst, you know this crowd better than that.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2016, 12:15:52 PM »
"kind" and "species" are interchangeable here.  If it wasn't on the arc, then it was drowned and does not exist today.  So there had to be two of each animal on the arc, except for the so-called clean animals.  There were seven of each clean animal.  Go read it again.
I'm not sure if it's a JW thing or not, but as I understand it, there are some who get around this by acknowledging some manner of 'post-flood evolution' as the explanation for the current diversity of life.

So I'm not sure if 'kind' and 'species' really are interchangeable here.  If there is no further explanation for the diversity of life post-flood, then I think you're right and the only way to make the story coherent (with itself and reality) is to assume that 'kind' = 'species'.  Of course, one does wonder how Noah managed to make it to Madagascar to pick up the animals there, and, of course, one does also wonder how he got them back to Madagascar.

Quote
OK, so it was God MagicTM?
I wonder how he's ruled on demonic help.  If god had decided that he was not going to provide divine help, but Satan decided he was going to help (say, if Noah's worthiness of piety was dependent on his success/failure of this task that god set him out to do, and Satan wanted to undermine god by tempting Noah with help, dunno), would god have intervened and said "Noah, do not listen to the beast!  Do not accept help from one so rife with sin and disobedience!" or would he have pulled a 'Serpent in the garden' and just, like, ignore it?

What was god's goal with the flood?  Did he succeed in that goal?  What would have Satan's goals have been during the flood?  At the time of the flood, did Satan have rulership and/or dominion over the world?  Did god want to get rid of sin and evil?  Does Satan have any interest in getting rid of sin and evil?  Is there still sin and evil in the post-flood world?

Whose wants and desires were more fully realized in the post-flood world?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2016, 01:21:20 PM »
Just another thought.   

lets assume that god magically made trees and all other plant life forms pop up on the surface of the ravaged land.

the tigers now begin to work their way back to india and dingos start heading for australia over land bridges (unlikely since water levels should have been higher or equal to today during their march to australia)  but none the less these Tiger creatures begin their long march back home.   for the better part of a year the gazelle kind probably would only have time to sire one offspring. Tigers have also sired one offspring, to eat and feed their young how do Gazelle breed when the the new tiger family will probably need to eat at least one of each kind every couple of days.  Lets call a tigers eating habits requiring 1 every 3 days or 100 kinds of large game animals per year.   Also by this being "Kinds"  we are talking about eating Gazelles which would eliminate deer, moose, possibly cows, bison...   

now lets look at Canine kind,  they will probably have to eat 1 rabbit kind per day so 365, kinds will be wiped out in the first year.   Shall I continue through the entire list of carnivore kinds.  In a year we are talking about elimination of all prey kinds in the first year before they could breed and have the accelerated mutations to create all of today's diversity.

the animal kingdom should only contain mice, and giant land mammals.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2016, 03:26:47 PM »
...I would have to say that the flood seems like a waste of effort. 

Indeed - Yawnway himself regretted it afterwards, hence the rainbow as a sign he'll never do it again.

The obvious follow-up question: how can an omniscient being regret doing something?  :?
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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2016, 03:46:30 PM »
Gilligan's island makes more sense.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2016, 05:48:11 PM »
The Noah story has to be made up. Nothing about it works. If you have to resort to magic to fill in all the places where the story breaks down scientifically, yes, the flood seems like overkill.

First of all, we know what floods do to landscapes. We know what floods leave behind in terms of evidence. And there was no global flood because there is no evidence. But even assuming that god magically hid all the evidence somehow, you end up with, at minimum, millions of dead, rotting people, plants and animals.  This would pollute the water and soil massively, creating a disease vector like nothing ever seen on earth.

Then you need bang, right out of the ark, human, plant and animal evolution happening so fast that every few generations has to be completely different. No gradual descent with modification, no time for that. But nobody notices people giving birth to different races of babies--Middle Eastern/Turkish folks would have to instantly produce Swedish, Spanish, Inuit, Chinese, Peruvian, Khoisan, Fijian, Sudanese and Samoan looking children, who then would have to make their way thousands of miles to their new homes. Or else Turkish looking people would have to migrate all over the world and then suddenly produce all those different races.

Reptiles would be giving birth to parakeets, whales giving birth to horses, and saber tooth tigers giving birth to hyenas. Kangaroos and platypuses show up all of a sudden, somehow. But nobody takes any notice.

Then, for some unknown reason, about the time people start doing science, all this rapid hyperevolution slows to almost a standstill until it is barely detectable. Then to make it even more absurd, nobody bothers to document the evidence for actual, slow, biological evolution until the 19th century, and Christians to this day deny it is real ..... :?
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Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2016, 06:11:09 PM »
   God should of been able to just blink his eyes and VOILA all the evil sinners would  disappear. No need for the flood, ark or any of this other nonsense. 
    Of all the nutty stuff in the bible Noah and his ark are by far the most patently
absurd.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2016, 06:12:45 PM »
I love the Noah story. It's a freethrow whenever you need a point. Or want to run up the score.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #11 on: April 28, 2016, 06:52:05 PM »
One thing is that he didn't take two of every species.  He took two of every "kind", which as far as I am aware is never defined in the scriptures. 
thank you for admitting that Christians who claims this are just making up nonsense when they claim to know what "kinds" actually means. 

Quote
Another thing is that vegetation was already growing before they left the ark so I don't know how much farming was actually necessary.  (Gen 8:11)
how long can land plants live when flooded, jst? 

Quote
Also considering the direct interaction of Jehovah in the situation and Noah's closeness to him, divine help cannot be ruled out.
Considering you have no evidence for this at all, you are simply making things up.   
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2016, 06:58:38 PM »
So religious people,  assuming that one can fit millions of species on an ark, and release them upon landing, where do they go on a tiny island with no plant life.

One thing is that he didn't take two of every species.  He took two of every "kind", which as far as I am aware is never defined in the scriptures. 

Another thing is that vegetation was already growing before they left the ark so I don't know how much farming was actually necessary.  (Gen 8:11)

Also considering the direct interaction of Jehovah in the situation and Noah's closeness to him, divine help cannot be ruled out.
Gen 8:1  -2  the rain stops
Gen 8:3  the water is flowing away:
Gen 8:4  the ark runs aground on the 17th of the seventh month,
Gen 8:5  And the waters decreased continually for 2½ months and in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.
Gen 8:6  And forty days  later,
Gen 8:7  Noah sent a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth.
Gen 8:8  he also sent a dove
Gen 8:10  he waits another seven days; and
Gen 8:11  And the dove came in to him with an olive leaf
Gen 8:12  he waits another seven days ,sent the dove out but it didn’t come back
Gen 8:13  And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year [of Noah’s life], in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.
[Edit, this was quite remarkable, as it means that Noah never bothered to look out of the ark until this time. You wonder what level of intelligence Noah had that he would send out birds when, from the top of Ararat, you can see the land around for miles and miles.]
Gen 8:14  And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried.
[Edit. If anyone is interested, I suggest that they get a few ordinary plants, some grass, and some seeds, put them in a bucket, and leave them for a year – if any remain alive, let me know. If they do, now consider putting them under 29,000 feet of water where it is pitch black, very cold, and the pressure is enormous, and see that happens… A global flood would destroy all terrestrial plant life and kill all seeds.]

[Edit, it is only at this point that the animals are released.]

Gen 8:15  And God spake unto Noah, saying,
Gen 8:16  Go forth of the ark, thou, and thy wife, and thy sons, and thy sons' wives with thee.
Gen 8:17  Bring forth with thee every living thing that is with thee, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.
Gen 8:18  And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:
Gen 8:19  Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

Jst,
The question that we all want to know is the one Pianodwarf asked many years ago: “How did the wombats, snakes, spiders, and kangaroos, etc. get back to Australia?”
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 07:01:31 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2016, 10:24:30 PM »
What prey did predator species (like lions, hyenas, snakes and spiders) eat on the ark?

Watch the make-believe continue:

....all the predator animals slept on the ark in magical godly hibernation and did not eat anything;
....they were temporarily made, by godly cloning, into omnivores or herbivores and survived on grass, which magically freshly appeared each morning in their nice clean cages;
....all the animals were put into a magical godly time machine by Christopher Lloyd and shrunk down to separate eggs and sperm by Rick Moranis. Jeff Goldblum later mixed them back together and reanimated them into grown animals after landing;
....Cinderella and Rapunzel and Tinkerbell magically brought freshly killed meat, live small animals and live insects over each day from Disneyland, and hand fed the predator animals.....

And the humans in the dark, fetid, hot, humid, stinky, noisy, disease and poop-filled boat of methane gas hell also slept in magical godly hibernation and did not eat either. Or else they ate godly food that magically appeared each day. Or had takeout pizza and Chinese and barbecue and deli sandwiches and pho brought over regularly by Thor, Shango and Vishnu. 

And they all lived happily ever after. &)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 10:31:32 PM by nogodsforme »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2016, 08:00:48 AM »
God used agape water to flood the world.  Agape water isn't like regular water, where you have to worry about things like "how it physically interacts with reality" or other such nonsense.  It does things like pick up/drop off morally-worthy creatures in Madagascar, transforms arks into gigantic magic satchels, provides manna, and not only does it take your waste but it'll even wipe your ass for you.
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2016, 09:05:23 AM »
Quote
Gen 8:14  And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, the earth was dried.

So when did the oceans, seas, and lakes fill back up?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2016, 10:44:34 AM »
And how did the fresh water in lakes and rivers get suddenly separated out from the salty oceans again?
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2016, 12:13:03 PM »
What prey did predator species (like lions, hyenas, snakes and spiders) eat on the ark?

Watch the make-believe continue:

....all the predator animals slept on the ark in magical godly hibernation and did not eat anything;
....they were temporarily made, by godly cloning, into omnivores or herbivores and survived on grass, which magically freshly appeared each morning in their nice clean cages;
....all the animals were put into a magical godly time machine by Christopher Lloyd and shrunk down to separate eggs and sperm by Rick Moranis. Jeff Goldblum later mixed them back together and reanimated them into grown animals after landing;
....Cinderella and Rapunzel and Tinkerbell magically brought freshly killed meat, live small animals and live insects over each day from Disneyland, and hand fed the predator animals.....

And the humans in the dark, fetid, hot, humid, stinky, noisy, disease and poop-filled boat of methane gas hell also slept in magical godly hibernation and did not eat either. Or else they ate godly food that magically appeared each day. Or had takeout pizza and Chinese and barbecue and deli sandwiches and pho brought over regularly by Thor, Shango and Vishnu. 

And they all lived happily ever after. &)

I thought that's what the "seven of every clean kind" were for, the extras were eaten by the others.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 12:20:06 PM by CrystalDragon »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2016, 12:17:41 PM »
I thought that's what the "seven of every clean kind" we're for, the extras were eaten by the others.
: ) No: Originally, there were only two of each kind to be brought in, and then the writer realised that there would have to be more than two of some types[1] as they were going to be used for sacrifice to Yahweh.
 1. clean types - suitable for sacrifice
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2016, 12:32:30 PM »
crystal.   I don't know how many clean animal kinds there are.  Especially when kind means some sort of root creature on the tree of life.  I don't know the evolutionary tree that well but it would seem as if you want to bring things down to the Hovinde level,  Sheep, deer, cows, goats, bison... may well have been one kind.   What I am getting at is that the Large Kind cats would probably eat 100 kinds of clean animals.  Canine kind would probably eat 300 large Rodent kinds per year.

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2016, 10:26:47 PM »
What was god's goal with the flood?

Marketing.

Did he succeed in that goal?

Hell yes!  How else can you turn the extermination of an entire planetary biosphere into something cute for kids?


This is called the "Tales of Glory Noah's Ark Play Set."  Because isn't planet-wrecking slaughter glorious?

That has to be the most astonishing feat of marketing in the history of the human species.  If you can convince people to believe this shit--and that Yahweh and Noah are the good guys--then you've got the cheat codes to their brains and you can get them to believe, or do, anything you want.  And that, as JST would be the first to admit, is what it's all about.  "Jehovah" (or "Yahweh") is all about garnering human obedience.  But of course, no invisible cosmic superbeing ever shows up to collect; "his" human spokesmen do, "on his behalf."

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2016, 11:24:08 AM »
In that cartoon, Noah would not even be able to walk from one end of the boat to the other. All the animals would be up to their necks in their own dung. And there is no space for all the food and fresh water, another inconvenient fact left out of the bible tale. Where are the immense piles of plastic turds? Where is the gigantic pool of plastic vomit from seasick animals who had never ridden on a boat before? Where is the plastic carnage from the predators eating everything else?

How long just to gather and load all the supplies? Where would the staging area for this massive project be? In a society where everyone else, down to the children, was so evil and degenerate that they deserved death by drowning, wouldn't the neighbors just brain Noah and clan with rocks, steal all the supplies, and dismantle the boat for the wood?[1]

These images would not bother us, any more than the statues of Greek gods in museums, except for the many otherwise intelligent, reasonable people who claim this was a real event, and want it taught as factual history to kids in schools....
 1. And then eat Noah's family and have sex with all the animals while dancing like maniacs in the pouring rain?  &)
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Offline ThatZenoGuy

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 09:05:57 PM »
You know, its actually always entertained me, Noah's Ark.

When I was young, I really never put much thought into it, yet amazingly I never too it seriously.

Then comes along the time when my noggin' could finally comprehend massive quantities of stuff, and I laughed at the idea.

Then when I figured basic biology and how animals worked, I found the idea disgusting.

I mean, holy shit, first off no boat could contain such quantities of animals, secondly the predators would go apeshit, thirdly many animals eat WOOD, fourthly the waste produced would become dangerous (if not lethal) quite rapidly, and lastly Noah and his family would be eaten in no time.

As far as I am aware of, the changes in salinity would also kill off most sea-life, leaving only brackish capable fish behind.

The fact that I can waltz down the road and look at species like, say, a herring, alone prove Noah's Ark to be false...
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Offline CrystalDragon

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 10:17:07 PM »
I had an ark toy like that as a kid, though it was quite a bit bigger than that one in the the picture, more made of a brighter orange plastic, it didn't have a ramp, and you could open it up and there would be shelves/floors where you could fit all the animals.  I didn't really put much thought into the theological significance back then, and honestly, when I was a kid, I never really grasped the significance of "God killed everyone in the world except for Noah and the animals", I just always liked playing with the ark doing commentary with the animals.  I only really started thinking about the meaning when I got older.
Sometimes what is unknown is the most interesting.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Noah's Island???
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 11:32:39 PM »
I had an ark toy like that as a kid, though it was quite a bit bigger than that one in the the picture, more made of a brighter orange plastic, it didn't have a ramp, and you could open it up and there would be shelves/floors where you could fit all the animals.  I didn't really put much thought into the theological significance back then, and honestly, when I was a kid, I never really grasped the significance of "God killed everyone in the world except for Noah and the animals", I just always liked playing with the ark doing commentary with the animals.  I only really started thinking about the meaning when I got older.

Remember, god also killed all the animals that did not get chosen to go on the ark. Drowned baby koalas and pandas and kangaroos. Puppies and kittens. Baby tigers and baby polar bears. All the cute bunnies. Drowned and rotting in the water by the millions. Not to mention all the trees and plants. Killed by the loving god for no reason. That would not make for a cute children's toy, would it?

People try to say that sin was so rampant that it had even infested the animals and plants! Seriously, and god knew this would happen, but let it go on anyway. Why? And aren't we way more sinful than the people of Noah's time? Did they have gay marriage and trans people and mixed race dating? Did they have internet pron featuring old people, animals, cartoon aliens and folks with disabilities? I doubt it.
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:34:21 PM by nogodsforme »
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