Author Topic: Hello  (Read 749 times)

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Offline MisterPine

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Re: Hello
« Reply #58 on: March 22, 2015, 07:26:19 PM »
I'll finish this with a few points:

MisterPine, being an atheist or a newcomer doesn't exempt you from scrutiny. Unless you're younger than four, you're already a sentient being, capable of recognizing when you're wrong (to some degree).

Furthermore, what you're saying now is not what you said earlier in this thread (or even what you say within post above). You said you wanted to be open-minded, which is why you were an "agnostic" (whatever the hell that means). You also said you had stated your beliefs, but, if you're a true agnostic, then you've stated no such thing.

Additionally, if you say you're not looking to be challenged immediately after asking a question, what it sounds like you're saying is "I'm not looking to hear disagreements" - the trademark of a close-minded person. I'm fairly certain that's not what you meant, however.

Finally, don't project your perceptions[1] onto me. If you want my opinions, ask. If not, don't assume, project, or otherwise pull them out of thin air.
 1. "[Not knowing what you believe] doesn't make [you] weak or lacking in any way"

Scrutiny (and even questions and challengers) are fine, just maybe not in my introduction message two minutes after I arrive and say hello.  Fairly standard practice then, for you to pounce on someone about their beliefs, demand that they declare themselves atheist or theist, mock their agnosticism, call them "more open minded than thou", whatever THAT means, and then give them their very first negative score (some popularity contest you have going here that I haven't wrapped my head around yet)?

If you're with the Welcome Wagon, I suggest your approach could stand a bit of finesse.

Regarding "projecting my perceptions," I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about, but setting you off is clearly not the hardest thing in the world to do.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 07:30:37 PM by MisterPine »
"It ain't supposed to make sense -  it's faith.  Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."  - Archie Bunker

Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #59 on: March 22, 2015, 07:33:11 PM »
Scrutiny (and even questions and challengers) are fine, just maybe not in my introduction message two minutes after I arrive and say hello.

Eight hours later, you mean.

Fairly standard practice then, for you to pounce on someone about their beliefs

If you expected me to treat you in any special way, sorry to disappoint.

demand that they declare themselves atheist or theist

I never demanded such a thing. Keep fiction where it belongs - in your imagination and in story books.

mock their agnosticism

Since it's a non-existent position by people who think they're more open-minded by holding it, I see no reason not to mock agnosticism.

call them "more open minded than thou", whatever THAT means

I explained what it meant.
EDIT #2: I was wrong. I did not, in fact, explain what it meant. It's a take on "holier-than-thou". It means your attitude includes arrogant "I'm more open-minded than you" claims.

and then give them their very first negative score (some popularity contest you have going here that I haven't wrapped my head around yet)?

That was Nam; not me. I didn't smite you, and was, in fact, planning on giving you a +1 for this post, whatever it was. I was hoping you were standing up to me - something I admire. Instead, you resorted to whining. I won't smite you either, but I am already disappointed.
EDIT: Also, the karma system is simply an easy means to give recognition to posters you like for posts you liked. It's pretty much irrelevant, IMO.

If you're with the Welcome Wagon, I suggest your approach could stand a bit of finesse.

I welcomed you, same as I welcome everyone else, and asked about something, as I do when I'm curious.

Regarding "projecting my perceptions," I can honestly say I have no idea what you're talking about.

You've attributed a position I do not hold[1] onto me based on a perception you have. I thought it was clear from the footnote.
 1. That not holding a position makes one "weak".
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 07:48:35 PM by One Above All »
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Online Defiance

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Re: Hello
« Reply #60 on: March 22, 2015, 07:42:40 PM »
Atheists are only joined by their lack of belief in gods. I learned the hard way, that they're still very "un-joined" simply because they are human.

For example, let's say One and I are atheists. But he may disagree with scientific animal testing, whereas I would agree with it for the purpose of advancing knowledge. We might get into debates over that in the chatter section. (Just made up; I don't know his actual position on that).

But I do know that One is not as you're making him seem.

Q: Why are quantum physicists bad lovers? A: Because when they find the position, they can't find the momentum, and when they have the momentum, they can't find the position.

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Offline MisterPine

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Re: Hello
« Reply #61 on: March 22, 2015, 08:19:50 PM »
Eight hours later, you mean.

I've still barely wiped my feet here.

If you expected me to treat you in any special way, sorry to disappoint.
How about giving me a chance to get into the discussion forums?

I never demanded such a thing. Keep fiction where it belongs - in your imagination and in story books.

How about just letting me state my opinion without demanding that I revise it?

Since it's a non-existent position by people who think they're more open-minded by holding it, I see no reason not to mock agnosticism.

Again, it's early days.  And I disagree it's a non-existent position; to me it's an honest position.  I also disagree it's a position people take when they're trying to be "more open-minded" - you've said this a couple of times now and I don't know why you think it's some kind of popularity contest.  I consider myself open-minded and reasonable.  But I'm not trying to outdo anyone else in the same department, so it seems to me you're accusing me of some kind of arrogance and I'm baffled as to why.  It is not my style.

EDIT #2: I was wrong. I did not, in fact, explain what it meant. It's a take on "holier-than-thou". It means your attitude includes arrogant "I'm more open-minded than you" claims.

And there it is.  I've only just arrived here, I made a simple, basic statement about trying to be open-minded.  There was precisely nothing arrogant about it.

That was Nam; not me.

My apologies to you then, hopefully you can see why I made the assumption. Nam, what gives?
You've attributed a position I do not hold[1] onto me based on a perception you have.
 1. That not holding a position makes one "weak".

Sorry, we'll remove the word "weak" from the plethora of complaints you've got about me based on my introduction.

Fun place.  I'm having a blast so far.
"It ain't supposed to make sense -  it's faith.  Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."  - Archie Bunker

Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #62 on: March 22, 2015, 08:26:36 PM »
You're fun. If we end up on opposite sides of a debate, I'd like to see how long you can last before one of us[1] gives up[2] or admits defeat.
 1. Could be me. I'm always open to that possibility.
 2. For the record, Sol Invictus means "Unconquered Sun".
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 08:38:55 PM by One Above All »
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Online Nam

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Re: Hello
« Reply #63 on: March 22, 2015, 11:28:44 PM »
Somebody mention my name? Did they spell it correctly?

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #64 on: March 23, 2015, 06:54:39 AM »
MisterPine,

Told you, you will need to have thick skin around here.  Don't take things personal, it can be hard at times to deal with the perceived slights.   

OneAboveAll,

Agnostic means not quite sure.  As in Not quite sure god exists, to not quite sure there is no god.  It leaves open the position that god may or may not exist.  I still think to be an atheist you have to be a little more convinced.  I have learned that atheist is not as direct a positive assertion as I used to think.  I used to think it was a arrogant position that claimed more knowledge than was possible.  To take the position I though you would need to claim nearly omniscience.  I have softened my position somewhat but I am still not sure I can make the personal leap to atheist.  I continue to be an agnostic leaning hard toward atheism to a weak atheist.

Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #65 on: March 23, 2015, 07:04:07 AM »
Agnostic means not quite sure.  As in Not quite sure god exists, to not quite sure there is no god.

If that were the question that was asked, it'd be an acceptable answer. Again, the question is not one of certainty, but belief. I'm not asking those who bet in the lottery if they're certain they'll win; I ask them if they believe they will.

EDIT: epidemic, if I asked you if you had a smartphone, what would your answer be? Either a "yes" or a "no", I hope, with some possible room for expansion. Now imagine you asked me if I had a smartphone, and I replied that my cellphone was silver. Would this be an answer to your question? Imagine I told you it had a camera. Would I have answered your question then? What if I told you it had a battery? Or that it was able to make calls?
None of these statements are actual answers to the question "Do you have a smartphone?". Likewise, saying you're not sure if deities exist does not answer the question "Do you believe in deities?". The only answers are "yes" or "no"[1].

Is intellectual honesty too much to ask for? Apparently, for self-proclaimed "agnostics", it is.
 1. And don't give me that "not sure" excuse. You may not be sure what you believe, but that doesn't mean you don't have an opinion, even if you're not sure what it is.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 07:22:47 AM by One Above All »
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Offline MisterPine

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Re: Hello
« Reply #66 on: March 23, 2015, 07:46:06 AM »
I've never liked this idea that "agnostic" means you can't make up your mind or that you are somehow on the fence.  I have always believed, and this is certainly true for myself, that it means you believe the truth can't be known.  That's very different than being indecisive.

I'm not sure you can equate the questions "do you believe God exists" and "do you have a smartphone" because you can legitimately not know the answer to the first question but you have to know the answer to the latter one.
"It ain't supposed to make sense -  it's faith.  Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."  - Archie Bunker

Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #67 on: March 23, 2015, 08:17:38 AM »
Agnostic means not quite sure.  As in Not quite sure god exists, to not quite sure there is no god.

If that were the question that was asked, it'd be an acceptable answer. Again, the question is not one of certainty, but belief. I'm not asking those who bet in the lottery if they're certain they'll win; I ask them if they believe they will.

EDIT: epidemic, if I asked you if you had a smartphone, what would your answer be? Either a "yes" or a "no", I hope, with some possible room for expansion. Now imagine you asked me if I had a smartphone, and I replied that my cellphone was silver. Would this be an answer to your question? Imagine I told you it had a camera. Would I have answered your question then? What if I told you it had a battery? Or that it was able to make calls?
None of these statements are actual answers to the question "Do you have a smartphone?". Likewise, saying you're not sure if deities exist does not answer the question "Do you believe in deities?". The only answers are "yes" or "no"[1].

Is intellectual honesty too much to ask for? Apparently, for self-proclaimed "agnostics", it is.
 1. And don't give me that "not sure" excuse. You may not be sure what you believe, but that doesn't mean you don't have an opinion, even if you're not sure what it is.


I think it is intellectually dishonest to not accept the answer given.   You may want a yes or no answer but sometimes yes or no answers do not suffice.  Are blondes sexier than brunettes?  You may have an answer to that question that falls into a yes or no.  But for me there are a lot more things that need to be said. 

Do I believe in deities?  I simply do not know, I accept the possibility that they exist.  Yes or no does not answer the question honestly.  Almost every opinion question in the world has 3 options in the end  Yes, No or Maybe(I don't know). 

I tend to lean towards no gods exist, and near 100% certain the bible is a product of man and does not describe with any reliability any being that might exist.   The answer to your question is neither yes nor no, therefore maybe/I don't know is the most appropriate answer. 

Online jdawg70

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Re: Hello
« Reply #68 on: March 23, 2015, 10:10:12 AM »
I've never liked this idea that "agnostic" means you can't make up your mind or that you are somehow on the fence.  I have always believed, and this is certainly true for myself, that it means you believe the truth can't be known.  That's very different than being indecisive.
I'm a little confused, as this sounds inconsistent on your part.

I sort of balk at calling myself agnostic atheist or agnostic theist so I remain on the fence.

Quote
I'm not sure you can equate the questions "do you believe God exists" and "do you have a smartphone" because you can legitimately not know the answer to the first question but you have to know the answer to the latter one.

Firstly, one most certainly does not have to know the answer to the latter one.  You may very well expect, and be justified in expecting, that someone knows what you mean by the word 'smartphone', but not necessarily.  I certainly can imagine a conversation involving a semantic debate regarding 'smartphone' and 'phablet' for example.

Secondly, I think those questions can be equated.  Try it like this:
Do you believe that god exists?
Do you believe that you have a smartphone?

Let's focus on the smartphone for a minute.  Let's say that you are a time traveler from the year 1341.  You have no clue what the bloody hell a phone is, let alone what a smartphone is.  I would contend that you do not possess belief that you have a smartphone.  If there were a word that corresponded to the idea of 'lacks belief in ownership of a smartphone' - let's say asmarthphoneowneist - then I would contend that word would apply to you.

Now let's abstract things a bit:
Do you believe <insert claim> is true?

If your answer is not yes to the above, then that means that you do not possess belief that <insert claim> is true, right?  I'm not saying that you possess the belief that insert claim> is false at this stage - I'm merely making the observation that you do not possess belief that <insert claim> is true.  And, for me, not possessing a belief that god exists is sufficient for application of the label 'atheist'.  On the other side of that coin, possessing a belief that god exists is sufficient for application of the label 'theist'.

Now, for whatever reason, I suspect that you still don't want to call yourself and atheist (or theist).  That's fine, but what I want to make sure of is that you don't have the impression that someone labeling themselves 'theist' or 'atheist' isn't necessarily less open to change than someone who eschews said label.  I want to make sure that, when you hear one of us say that we are an atheist, you don't read more into it than is really there.

One Above All -

Do you think it's important for either epidemic or MisterPine to take either the label 'theist' or 'atheist'?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #69 on: March 23, 2015, 02:07:27 PM »
Do you think it's important for either epidemic or MisterPine to take either the label 'theist' or 'atheist'?

For the purposes of answering a simple question and display intellectual honesty at the same time? Yes.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #70 on: March 23, 2015, 02:12:25 PM »
I think it is intellectually dishonest to not accept the answer given.

If an answer had been given, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, no such thing occurred.

You may want a yes or no answer but sometimes yes or no answers do not suffice.  Are blondes sexier than brunettes?  You may have an answer to that question that falls into a yes or no.  But for me there are a lot more things that need to be said. 

Apples and oranges.

Do I believe in deities?  I simply do not know

Not knowing what you believe[1] doesn't make you an agnostic. Being an embryo with no experiences makes you an agnostic. Being someone who lost his memories and hasn't had time to experience anything makes you an agnostic. Not knowing what you believe just means you don't know what you believe.
 1. I want to note that we are not born with complete knowledge of ourselves, and the fact that we change makes it even more difficulty to know oneself 100%.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #71 on: March 23, 2015, 03:02:43 PM »
Not knowing what you believe[1] doesn't make you an agnostic. Being an embryo with no experiences makes you an agnostic. Being someone who lost his memories and hasn't had time to experience anything makes you an agnostic. Not knowing what you believe just means you don't know what you believe.
 1. I want to note that we are not born with complete knowledge of ourselves, and the fact that we change makes it even more difficulty to know oneself 100%.

I am sorry, you may make decisions based upon incomplete facts.   There is an assertion that god exists, he is immeasurable, lives outside of time and space and created the universe.  I do not feel I have enough information to simply disregard the supposition of god based upon the information I have.  I do not believe God or gods are likely to exist.  But I am not convinced that I can say definitively that god does not exist.  As such I consider myself as not knowing god does not exist.


Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #72 on: March 23, 2015, 03:05:50 PM »
As such I consider myself as not knowing god does not exist.

Still not answering the question. Keep trying, I hope you'll get it some day.
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Re: Hello
« Reply #73 on: March 23, 2015, 04:15:01 PM »
But I am not convinced that I can say definitively that god does not exist.

Do you think that being an atheist means that one can say definitively that god does not exist?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #74 on: March 23, 2015, 06:32:03 PM »
Quote

Still not answering the question. Keep trying, I hope you'll get it some day.

Do you actually know the definition of agnostic.

I essence it is the position that the existence of a god is unknowable. I say I do not believe but ultimately the existence or non existence of god is ultimately unknowable.   As such I find agnostic to be a fine answer.

Atheism is not a bad definition for me but it does have baggage in my opinion.  In common use it is a statement that is more definite.  This is why this topic comes up so much.

Atheism is commonly known to mean there is definitely no god.


« Last Edit: March 23, 2015, 06:49:29 PM by epidemic »

Online jdawg70

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Re: Hello
« Reply #75 on: March 23, 2015, 06:51:53 PM »
Quote

Still not answering the question. Keep trying, I hope you'll get it some day.

Do you actually know the definition of agnostic.

I essence it is the position that the existence of a god is unknowable. I say I do not believe but ultimately the existence or non existence of god is ultimately unknowable.   As such I find agnostic to be a fine answer.

Yeah, but to One Above All's point...this is a conversation about belief, not knowledge.  Yes, agnostic.  We got that bit.  Focus on the next bit - the theist/atheist bit.

It's just...it's just that I'm pretty sure that you agree with the statement "epidemic does not possess the belief that god exists."  I mean - right?  That's an accurate statement, isn't it?

Please be clear that I am not saying "epidemic does possess the belief that god does not exist."

I am simply observing that a belief you do not have is the belief that god exists.

Is this accurate, epidemic?

Look...the reason for the pedantry in this thread, at least for me, is that I identify as an atheist.  You are aware that I identify as an atheist.  As far as I can tell, you are associating the label 'atheist' with more than just the lack of belief in the existence of god.  And I'm really curious what that is.  Or, you have some other reason to reject the label 'atheist' that I can't figure out, and I'm curious about that too.  It's no skin off my back if you don't self-identify that way - it's cool - but I'm just trying to understand this, that's all.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #76 on: March 23, 2015, 06:59:52 PM »
Answered above while you were posting

Offline MisterPine

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Re: Hello
« Reply #77 on: March 23, 2015, 09:22:36 PM »
Can we take this discussion out to the public forum area?  It is very interesting to me.
"It ain't supposed to make sense -  it's faith.  Faith is something that you believe that nobody in his right mind would believe."  - Archie Bunker

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Re: Hello
« Reply #78 on: March 23, 2015, 10:00:27 PM »
I do not believe

Only took... about 12 hours and 4 responses. I really don't understand what's so difficult about saying "I do not believe" (or just "No").
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Online Nam

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Re: Hello
« Reply #79 on: March 23, 2015, 10:51:24 PM »
I do not believe

Only took... about 12 hours and 4 responses. I really don't understand what's so difficult about saying "I do not believe" (or just "No").

That's how long it takes me to decide if I really want a Boston creme. It's a difficult decision, especially since the nearest Dunkin' Donuts used to be 45 minutes away. Now it's only 20 minutes away but still, should I drive 36 miles (in total) for a donut?

;)

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Hello
« Reply #80 on: March 24, 2015, 07:58:32 AM »
I do not believe

Only took... about 12 hours and 4 responses. I really don't understand what's so difficult about saying "I do not believe" (or just "No").


I still say the answer is incomplete. Let me help you, I do not believe in god or gods at this moment.  I believe that there is a possibility god or gods that could be proven in the future.

I guess I have a question for you OAA,  why is agnostic a bad terminology in your mind.

Online One Above All

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Re: Hello
« Reply #81 on: March 24, 2015, 08:06:37 AM »
I still say the answer is incomplete.

It's not. The question was "Do you believe in deities?", and the answer, for now[1], is "No".

I guess I have a question for you OAA,  why is agnostic a bad terminology in your mind.

It's not.[2] I used to be an agnostic atheist myself. However, when I ask you if you believe in X, and you say you're not sure X exists, you're not answering the question.
 1. Anyone can change their mind.
 2. When coupled together with modifiers or when applied to someone/something with no experiences whatsoever.
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Online jdawg70

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Re: Hello
« Reply #82 on: March 24, 2015, 08:50:59 AM »
I do not believe

Only took... about 12 hours and 4 responses. I really don't understand what's so difficult about saying "I do not believe" (or just "No").


I still say the answer is incomplete. Let me help you, I do not believe in god or gods at this moment.  I believe that there is a possibility god or gods that could be proven in the future.

I guess I have a question for you OAA,  why is agnostic a bad terminology in your mind.

Honestly, epidemic, if you feel that the answer of "I do not believe" is incomplete, then I would have thought you'd be more inclined to use the label 'agnostic atheist' in this thread, rather than push back on use of the word 'atheist'.  You know - 'atheist', not believing in god/gods, and 'agnostic', not having any measurable knowledge of the truth-value of said claim.

You know, for the sake of completeness.  Yes, I get what you're saying about semantic baggage with the word 'atheist', but you understand who you're communicating with on this forum, and specifically, in this thread, you understand, and it's been pointed out to you a number of times, that, by and large, the members of this forum do not read in that semantic baggage.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: Hello
« Reply #83 on: March 24, 2015, 08:57:21 AM »
You know, for the sake of completeness.  Yes, I get what you're saying about semantic baggage with the word 'atheist', but you understand who you're communicating with on this forum, and specifically, in this thread, you understand, and it's been pointed out to you a number of times, that, by and large, the members of this forum do not read in that semantic baggage.


Well there you have a real point.   The people I am talking with on this site are most definitely going to have a more accurate definition of atheist than the general public.   But then again I still have some of the baggage myself.  I am sorry but having been fed my whole life that atheist was a statement of authority on the existence of god.  I have not completely moved the definition in my own personal vocabulary.