Author Topic: Hi. Brief Introduction  (Read 140 times)

velkyn and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Hi. Brief Introduction
« on: February 18, 2017, 05:18:26 AM »
Hi.  Just wanted to introduce myself.  I'm new to the forum. It asked me to respond to at least three threads before being able to post.  So, it gave me a chance to read through a few threads before actually posting my own introduction.  In line with that, I'm a husband, a father, and I am not an atheist or agnostic.  I am from the Western United states.  I work from home for a software startup on the East Coast (my day job). 

If you have other questions, feel free to ask.  Otherwise, thanks for allowing me to be a guest in your community.

Also, I read something about a board called the "Shelter" which is touted as a good place to start for those who are not atheists.  I'd like to request access from whichever admin is responsible for those additions.  Thanks!

Online YouCantHandleTheTruth

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
  • Darwins +86/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2017, 10:15:31 AM »
Hi pisteuo,

Welcome to the board.  I appreciate the way you've handled yourself since coming on to the site.  I feel like the best way to discuss differences is doing it in a non-combative manner.  That's exactly what you've done.  When an atheist and theist start arguing, a lot of times it devolves into name-calling and insults, and when that happens, not only does it ruffle feathers but it takes both debaters completely off their games.  At that point, you're not thinking logically and emotion takes over and you start making bad arguments.  It makes me think of the husband or wife that gets angry and insults their spouse.  They don't really mean it, but emotions have taken hold.

I think you'll learn to like Old Church Guy.  He's a theist that also handles himself with class, and never seems to get overly emotional on the board.  Whether or not you agree with his beliefs, it gives you respect for his ability to keep his cool.  I think that says a lot about someone as a person.  Unfortunately, I'm not always able to keep my cool with theists - fair warning. :)

I wanted to address your question to LoriPinkAngel and others about how they came to their current position on God.  You can find some answers in the Testimonials section.  It gives you the background and reasons why many on this board became atheists/agnostics.  As others have mentioned on the board, the definition of atheist is one that is in dispute.  You heard the terms "hard" and "soft" atheist, anti-theist, etc.  I guess I'd consider myself a soft atheist.  Do I know what happens to us after we die?  Of course not - but my suspicions, based on the evidence, is that we simply lose consciousness and are no more.  I remember telling that to a theist and saying "but don't worry, it's not the end of the world if that happens."  The theist said "what are you talking about?  It would be the end of your world!" and I said "well, yeah, MY world, but not THE world."  Just because I'm dead doesn't mean the world stops - countless others will get to enjoy it!

Anyways - for the reasons I and others no longer believe, check out the Testimonials and Chatter sections, and others.  I guess my question for you would the same as yours to us - why do you believe in the Christian God?  What brought you there?

Look forward to, hopefully, many calm debates with you now and into the future.

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 01:54:35 AM »
Love your avatar, @YouCantHandleTheTruth, one of my favorite movie scenes!

Also, thanks for your response to my introduction and for welcoming me as a guest to the community here.

As for my position as a theist, and what brought me to that worldview, I'd say there are a number of factors.  Some cultural.  Some traditional, perhaps inherited.  Some experiential.  Some philosophical.  I've never really understood atheism, which is part of the reason I'm here...to learn, to ask questions, to share experiences.  It seems there are many former theists here, or at least many who expressed some amount of belief or faith who have since shed that belief and embraced atheism.  While my views of God differ from many here, I see some common and shared arguments among many in these threads that paint a picture of God that is different from my own.  Because of that, by nature, it has sparked curiosity in me.  I consider myself a lifelong learner, and I also desire to understand where people are coming from, what shapes their belief systems (or lack thereof), and what influences how they see the world.  I think learning to understand one another is important, especially in light of what is happening in this season of history, where it seems there is lot of despair, fear, uncertainty and concern over what lies ahead for humanity.

Again, thanks for welcoming me, I appreciate your response.  I try to leave emotion out of it, and I'm not easily riled, and I try not to intentionally rile others.  Please be patient if I need to ask more questions to understand something that may be common knowledge to those within the community here :)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:48:20 AM by pisteuo »

Online YouCantHandleTheTruth

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
  • Darwins +86/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 07:22:52 AM »
Love your avatar, @YouCantHandleTheTruth, one of my favorite movie scenes!

Also, thanks for your response to my introduction and for welcoming me as a guest to the community here.

As for my position as a theist, and what brought me to that worldview, I'd say there are a number of factors.  Some cultural.  Some traditional, perhaps inherited.  Some experiential.  Some philosophical.  I've never really understood atheism, which is part of the reason I'm here...to learn, to ask questions, to share experiences.  It seems there are many former theists here, or at least many who expressed some amount of belief or faith who have since shed that belief and embraced atheism.  While my views of God differ from many here, I see some common and shared arguments among many in these threads that paint a picture of God that is different from my own.  Because of that, by nature, it has sparked curiosity in me.  I consider myself a lifelong learner, and I also desire to understand where people are coming from, what shapes their belief systems (or lack thereof), and what influences how they see the world.  I think learning to understand one another is important, especially in light of what is happening in this season of history, where it seems there is lot of despair, fear, uncertainty and concern over what lies ahead for humanity.

Again, thanks for welcoming me, I appreciate your response.  I try to leave emotion out of it, and I'm not easily riled, and I try not to intentionally rile others.  Please be patient if I need to ask more questions to understand something that may be common knowledge to those within the community here :)

Haha thanks!  Yeah I absolutely love that movie and scene.  Funny thing is I"m nothing like that Jack Nicholson character.  I'm an introvert that tries to force myself into uncomfortable situations because I know that's how you gain confidence.  So I wear masks in order to adapt to a situation, until I feel comfortable to the point where I can remove said mask.  But don't we all do that?

Look forward to discussing things with you.  I'm trying my best to leave emotions out of it too.  I've gotten better at doing that in public, but anonymously we all tend to feel more brazen.  It's great that you've taken the initiative to come to the board.  I still go to my old church's board from when I was a believer until 2012.  I agree that we need to continue to listen to all sides, as it gives us a basis to build the most informed opinions that we can get.  You're welcome on the welcome, and see you on the boards!

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 8276
  • Darwins +344/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 08:37:12 AM »
Don't let anyone conflate atheism with anything other than the rejection of god assertions. Some Christians believe that atheists hate "God", or that they are simply struggling with their faith, etc. In my opinion, atheism is nothing more than the rejection of god assertions, nothing more, nothing less. It is a response to god assertions. Someone say's "there is a god", the atheist asks "where?", and the answer is always some form of faith or belief, or a variation of the two. They always tell you how to find their god, but it never involves actual demonstration. And so on...

Offline Emma286

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1584
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 01:24:22 PM »
Welcome to the site pisteuo. Hoping you enjoy reading and posting and decide to stick around.  :)

Online YouCantHandleTheTruth

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 500
  • Darwins +86/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 02:49:32 PM »
Don't let anyone conflate atheism with anything other than the rejection of god assertions. Some Christians believe that atheists hate "God", or that they are simply struggling with their faith, etc. In my opinion, atheism is nothing more than the rejection of god assertions, nothing more, nothing less. It is a response to god assertions. Someone say's "there is a god", the atheist asks "where?", and the answer is always some form of faith or belief, or a variation of the two. They always tell you how to find their god, but it never involves actual demonstration. And so on...

Yeah I know, this is the struggle.  Or that "something bad must have happened to you."  Although, that may be what you're getting at with the "hate God" assumption some theists make.  You're right that atheism is basically the rejection of God claims, and that the default position is seen as non-belief until the claims meet their burden of proof.

I guess one thing we need to consider is that some theists have met people who claim to be atheists, but are atheists for bad reasons.  Maybe they really did have something bad happen to them, or maybe they really are angry because a parent died, or something to that extent.  So the decision could be based more on emotion than research.  What we should convey to pisteuo is that we've come to our conclusions not haphazardly, but as the result of a lot of thought and investigation.  If pisteuo has real evidence to bring to the table, we should be open to it.  He may well be open to our evidence as well.  Obviously, what we don't want to see is him referring back to the Bible, or talking about personal experiences.  Is there something else he can bring to the table?  Let's find out.

Offline CrystalDragon

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 697
  • Darwins +78/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Proud Whovian
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 02:55:04 PM »
Hi pisteuo! I'm CrystalDragon, but you can call me CD if you like since that's long.  I'm one of the theists here and I guess you could say I'm a bit like Old Church Guy. :)
Sometimes what is unknown is the most interesting.

"It is always darker right before the light.  Or for some people, it just stays dark, but they don't seem to notice."

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 03:38:22 PM »
Don't let anyone conflate atheism with anything other than the rejection of god assertions. Some Christians believe that atheists hate "God", or that they are simply struggling with their faith, etc. In my opinion, atheism is nothing more than the rejection of god assertions, nothing more, nothing less. It is a response to god assertions. Someone say's "there is a god", the atheist asks "where?", and the answer is always some form of faith or belief, or a variation of the two. They always tell you how to find their god, but it never involves actual demonstration. And so on...

Jetson, thanks for this.  I don't want to presume someone simply hates God, or that they are an atheist because something bad happened in their life.  While there are several testimonies that lend themselves to that conceptually, there are also many who came to that conclusion via reasoning, or debate, or where said tragic events were a catalyst that led them to a deeper search to determine what they believe (or don't believe).  I think there is probably a wide variety of reasons and viewpoints among atheists just as there are among theists.  I'll try not to make too many assumptions.  I agree, certainly, that atheism is a rejection of god assertions.  There may be far more subtle nuances as to "why", but at a basic level, atheism is simply a rejection of belief.

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 03:40:58 PM »
Welcome to the site pisteuo. Hoping you enjoy reading and posting and decide to stick around.  :)

Thanks Emma, I appreciate the warm welcome from you and several others.  I'm sure I'll enjoy my stay here.

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 03:45:55 PM »
I guess one thing we need to consider is that some theists have met people who claim to be atheists, but are atheists for bad reasons.  Maybe they really did have something bad happen to them, or maybe they really are angry because a parent died, or something to that extent.  So the decision could be based more on emotion than research.  What we should convey to pisteuo is that we've come to our conclusions not haphazardly, but as the result of a lot of thought and investigation.  If pisteuo has real evidence to bring to the table, we should be open to it.  He may well be open to our evidence as well.  Obviously, what we don't want to see is him referring back to the Bible, or talking about personal experiences.  Is there something else he can bring to the table?  Let's find out.

No doubt, just as there are undoubtedly those who claim to be theists who are also uncertain of why, or for reasons that may not stand up to the most basic scrutiny.  For example, culturally labeling oneself as Christian or Muslim by default (as in the USA, where almost everyone is a "Christian", but most couldn't even tell you what's in Scripture because they never read it, and maybe never have). 

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 03:47:41 PM »
Hi pisteuo! I'm CrystalDragon, but you can call me CD if you like since that's long.  I'm one of the theists here and I guess you could say I'm a bit like Old Church Guy. :)

Thanks, CD!  Appreciate the welcome!

Offline Emma286

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1584
  • Darwins +78/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 05:20:24 PM »
Welcome to the site pisteuo. Hoping you enjoy reading and posting and decide to stick around.  :)

Thanks Emma, I appreciate the warm welcome from you and several others.  I'm sure I'll enjoy my stay here.

No worries at all. ;)

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 16262
  • Darwins +267/-10
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 08:51:54 PM »
pisteuo, I'm curious, can you give more detail on what you believe?  It is generally quite a bit easier to chat if we know a few more bit about your version of Christianity:  predestination or not?  young earth or old earth creationist?  Trinitarian?  Anti-Trinitarian?  Bible as literal?  Bible as metaphor?  As both, and how you determine what's what?

I was a Presbyterian, did all the things, and considered myself quite devout, believing and praying a lot.  I'm curious on how you define devout, since I saw you use that term in the shelter.  My "origin story" is out on my blog. If you're curious, I can give you a link. Long story short:  was a believer, watched my church disintergrate, read the bible to get the story from the horse's mouth (and to prove to my parents I could read it), and found that the bible isn't what is claimed.  This plus my background in science shows that gods and religions are made in the image of their creators, humans. 

I'm one of the toothier ones here on the boards.  If I see a claim, I'll want evidence and I don't pull punches to salve someone's hurt feelings. In case you might need it, I have found www.biblegateway.com  to be a great resource since it has many versions of the bible and it can be searched by keywords.  Most of the folks here are some of the most well-read and thoughtful I've found anywhere. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 11:17:10 PM »
pisteuo, I'm curious, can you give more detail on what you believe?  It is generally quite a bit easier to chat if we know a few more bit about your version of Christianity:  predestination or not?  young earth or old earth creationist?  Trinitarian?  Anti-Trinitarian?  Bible as literal?  Bible as metaphor?  As both, and how you determine what's what?

I was a Presbyterian, did all the things, and considered myself quite devout, believing and praying a lot.  I'm curious on how you define devout, since I saw you use that term in the shelter.  My "origin story" is out on my blog. If you're curious, I can give you a link. Long story short:  was a believer, watched my church disintergrate, read the bible to get the story from the horse's mouth (and to prove to my parents I could read it), and found that the bible isn't what is claimed.  This plus my background in science shows that gods and religions are made in the image of their creators, humans. 

I'm one of the toothier ones here on the boards.  If I see a claim, I'll want evidence and I don't pull punches to salve someone's hurt feelings. In case you might need it, I have found www.biblegateway.com  to be a great resource since it has many versions of the bible and it can be searched by keywords.  Most of the folks here are some of the most well-read and thoughtful I've found anywhere.

Velkyn,

I'll try to help give a bit more definition, although I'm not sure how helpful it will be. I grew up "Arminian", heavily influenced by Pentecostal tradition (Holiness movement) and more specifically, Assembly of God.  This means I believed solidly in free-will, and other traditional concepts that one might ascribe as more Arminian than Calvinist, or "reformed" tradition (which may be more familiar to you coming from a Presbyterian tradition).  There has been a significant shift in many of those views since that time.  I prefer to shed most of those labels and simply hold onto the term "disciple" because I think "isms" tend to force us into a framework of interpretation, and I see errors on both sides.  That said, I do hold primarily orthodox Christian views such as the trinity, and I believe the Bible is a beautiful mix of literature styles.  I tend to see it as primarily literal, but there certainly is metaphor.  I think good hermeneutics (looking in context, examining language, literary styles, etc.) provides a fairly safe basis for determining which is which.  I understand there is some variance there among Christians from various traditions, and I'm quite content when I'm not certain about something to simply say, "I don't know."  For example, I believe much of the Old testament pentateuch to be largely literal narrative.  I think Revelation, for example, is primarily prophecy.  I think Jesus teaching is both literal and metaphor, combining very real commandments with parables that illustrate ideas and principles which reinforce His teachings.  I'm not big on theological infighting in the Church, and I think the message of the Gospel was never meant to be so complex as it may seem some have made it out to be.  To me, that is largely a distraction from the core meta-narrative of Scripture and the redemptive story of Christ and creation.  That said, I do think it is important to have maintain well-settled, orthodox Christian doctrine that has stood the test of time. 

As far as devout, I would define that not so much as "religious" but as one seeking to follow after Jesus and grow in knowledge and action as a disciple.  I want to follow Jesus, even if it is costly.  Not because I want to gain something, but because I've come to believe that in Him is life.  I'm sure this will come up more in discussion from time to time, so I'll leave it there for now.

I did read your story.  I read all the testimonials last night.  I found many of them fascinating.  What happened at your church would have infuriated me too.

I can appreciate your fair warning regarding unsubstantiated claims.  Unfortunately, there will always be unsubstantiated claims, but I will attempt to provide evidence, when possible, and I certainly won't take anything personally.  I'm certainly not easily offended, or in need of my feelings or ego massaged when wounded.  In fact, in a way, I kind of feel like I gave up my right to be offended the more I started to follow Jesus and to read the Scripture and see what the apostles endured, what men like Paul endured, without ever lifting a hand or reviling those who put them to death or severely persecuted them.  Makes a little "hurt feelings" seem pretty petty in the scheme of things.  But, I'm human, as well, so I know it can still happen from time to time.  But, I won't hold a grudge, and things tend to roll off my back without much effort. 

Appreciate the welcome (and warning), but mainly the welcome :)
« Last Edit: Yesterday at 11:42:32 PM by pisteuo »

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 16262
  • Darwins +267/-10
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #15 on: Today at 07:37:38 PM »
Velkyn,

I'll try to help give a bit more definition, although I'm not sure how helpful it will be. I grew up "Arminian", heavily influenced by Pentecostal tradition (Holiness movement) and more specifically, Assembly of God.  This means I believed solidly in free-will, and other traditional concepts that one might ascribe as more Arminian than Calvinist, or "reformed" tradition (which may be more familiar to you coming from a Presbyterian tradition).  There has been a significant shift in many of those views since that time.  I prefer to shed most of those labels and simply hold onto the term "disciple" because I think "isms" tend to force us into a framework of interpretation, and I see errors on both sides.  That said, I do hold primarily orthodox Christian views such as the trinity, and I believe the Bible is a beautiful mix of literature styles.  I tend to see it as primarily literal, but there certainly is metaphor.  I think good hermeneutics (looking in context, examining language, literary styles, etc.) provides a fairly safe basis for determining which is which.  I understand there is some variance there among Christians from various traditions, and I'm quite content when I'm not certain about something to simply say, "I don't know."  For example, I believe much of the Old testament pentateuch to be largely literal narrative.  I think Revelation, for example, is primarily prophecy.  I think Jesus teaching is both literal and metaphor, combining very real commandments with parables that illustrate ideas and principles which reinforce His teachings.  I'm not big on theological infighting in the Church, and I think the message of the Gospel was never meant to be so complex as it may seem some have made it out to be.  To me, that is largely a distraction from the core meta-narrative of Scripture and the redemptive story of Christ and creation.  That said, I do think it is important to have maintain well-settled, orthodox Christian doctrine that has stood the test of time. 

As far as devout, I would define that not so much as "religious" but as one seeking to follow after Jesus and grow in knowledge and action as a disciple.  I want to follow Jesus, even if it is costly.  Not because I want to gain something, but because I've come to believe that in Him is life.  I'm sure this will come up more in discussion from time to time, so I'll leave it there for now.

I did read your story.  I read all the testimonials last night.  I found many of them fascinating.  What happened at your church would have infuriated me too.

I can appreciate your fair warning regarding unsubstantiated claims.  Unfortunately, there will always be unsubstantiated claims, but I will attempt to provide evidence, when possible, and I certainly won't take anything personally.  I'm certainly not easily offended, or in need of my feelings or ego massaged when wounded.  In fact, in a way, I kind of feel like I gave up my right to be offended the more I started to follow Jesus and to read the Scripture and see what the apostles endured, what men like Paul endured, without ever lifting a hand or reviling those who put them to death or severely persecuted them.  Makes a little "hurt feelings" seem pretty petty in the scheme of things.  But, I'm human, as well, so I know it can still happen from time to time.  But, I won't hold a grudge, and things tend to roll off my back without much effort. 

Appreciate the welcome (and warning), but mainly the welcome :)

thanks for the clarifications, P, I appreciate the time you took to do it.  From what I can tell, you are pretty much like most other Christians, in that you have created a version you are happy with.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #16 on: Today at 07:55:09 PM »
thanks for the clarifications, P, I appreciate the time you took to do it. 

Your welcome, I hope it was helpful for you, at least to some degree. :)

From what I can tell, you are pretty much like most other Christians, in that you have created a version you are happy with.   

In one sense yes, and another, no.  Yes, in the sense that we generally all act and make decisions in a manner consistent with our opinion, or what we believe to be true.  We hold opinions and act upon them because we think they are correct, otherwise we change them :)

No, in the sense that Christ actually created it, and I'm simply attempting to follow it as best as I can.  I don't find very many Western Christians, in my experience, really trying to do that.  That statement is not meant to be to my credit at all (I, too am simply growing in this discipleship), it's just an observation as I read the most basic of Scripture and see that many (most?) don't really seem to either be ignorant of what Jesus said, or they simply lack the desire to follow it (apathetic?).  I think many atheists see the same observation.  In either case, it is my hope that such trends will change.  I see change happening in some pockets of Western Chrisitan culture and churches, so I am hopeful...there are definitely some movements that have arisen over the past decade that seem counter to the prevailing trends.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:04:04 PM by pisteuo »

Online velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 16262
  • Darwins +267/-10
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #17 on: Today at 08:04:53 PM »
thanks for the clarifications, P, I appreciate the time you took to do it. 

Your welcome, I hope it was helpful for you, at least to some degree. :)

From what I can tell, you are pretty much like most other Christians, in that you have created a version you are happy with.   

In one sense yes, and another, no.  Yes, in the sense that we generally all act and make decisions in a manner consistent with our opinion, or what we believe to be true.  We hold opinions and act upon them because we think they are correct, otherwise we change them :)

No, in the sense that Christ actually created it, and I'm simply attempting to follow it as best as I can.  I don't find very many Western Christians, in my experience, really trying to do that.  That statement is not meant to be to my credit at all (I, too am simply growing in this discipleship), it's just an observation as I read the most basic of Scripture and see that many (most?) don't really seem to either be ignorant of what Jesus said, or they simply lack the desire to follow it (apathetic?).  I think many atheists see the same observation.  In either case, it is my hope that such trends will change.  I see change happening in some pockets of Western Chrisitan culture and churches, so I am hopeful...there are definitely some movements that have arisen  over the past decade that seem to counteract the trends.

would you be interested in discussing with me how you know you are following something that JC created and how you know others aren't?  Or would you be willing to offer your opinion of a fellow Christian's claims on this forum? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online pisteuo

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 32
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Hi. Brief Introduction
« Reply #18 on: Today at 08:12:38 PM »
would you be interested in discussing with me how you know you are following something that JC created and how you know others aren't?  Or would you be willing to offer your opinion of a fellow Christian's claims on this forum?

Which fellow Christian's claims are you wanting me to offer an opinion on?