Author Topic: New Christian Intro  (Read 362 times)

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Offline AshleyNC30

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #29 on: April 21, 2015, 07:01:18 PM »
Quote from: AshleyNC
I believe that some Christian churches, pastors, televangelists, and followers use the bible to accomplish tasks that are not what God intended the bible to be used for.  For example, I don't agree with Christians using the bible to try to stop gay marriage from being legalized or to change abortion laws.

How about slavery? Does the Bible promote slavery? How about sexism? Does the Bible promote sexism? How about racism? Does the Bible promote racism? How about hate? Does the Bible promote hate?

If the Bible promotes any or all of these things[1] then based on your interpretation of what Biblegod represents or intends in the Bible, how could you deny following any of them?

-Nam
 1. which it does

Just because the bible "allowed" slavery, sexism, and racism (show me how God specifically promoted it if you insist on it) in a culture that already had those things before God started talking to his prophets, then I should follow suit and practice those things now? 
I am not here to support or defend organized religion.  I am here to support my belief that God and Jesus exist.

Offline Nam

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2015, 07:34:07 PM »
Quote from: AshleyNC
Just because the bible "allowed" slavery, sexism, and racism (show me how God specifically promoted it if you insist on it) in a culture that already had those things before God started talking to his prophets, then I should follow suit and practice those things now?

You see what you're doing here? You're making excuses and having your interpretations (which are flawed based on your own bias of what your god is or isn't to you) trump those you disagree with whether they are true, or not.

And, to answer your question: Yes.

If the Bible is the Word of God -- that means they are your god's words. It dictated to those who wrote the varying parts of the Bible that those are the things in which are its laws.

It clearly states in the OT that Biblegod is for slavery since it dictates laws in how to care for them, treat them, etc., Now, apologetics like yourself cherry pick certain verses to make your interpretation more in-line with your beliefs but you can't erase what is stated.

It the Bible doesn't condemn slavery, which it doesn't, but does give instructions on how to treat your slaves and the Bible is the Word of God then Biblegod does not condemn slavery. It promotes it by not condemning it. It's god. It's the highest authority, right?

Corinthians is filled with passages of sexism. Women are 3rd class people. See, it's Biblegod/Jesus then man and then women. Women are not equal to men except in some minor forays of marriage but even then the man is in charge, even of the children.

All over the OT you have Biblegod ordering the Hebrews/Jews to massacre other tribes and/or ethnic groups. That's racism. It states that these people are better than these other people and therefore the other people should be enslaved and/or killed because of it.

In concern to racism in the NT, though many verses say we're the same there are also verses where it says you shouldn't mix with other ethnic groups.

The Bible is a "Hate guide". It masquerades itself as "love" but condemns everyone who doesn't follow it. That isn't love.

Now, you may be of the ilk who say, "I'm an NT Christian not an OT Christian. The OT is just there to show what we were not who we are." -- and I would say to that: bullshit. There is a reason those specific books were chosen and not the whole of the Tanakh. You should look into that, if you haven't already.

-Nam
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2015, 08:07:11 PM »
Once you hear about God from someone, you make a choice to agree that he exists or not.

Right, no one can be atheist towards someone else's god until they hear about it.

I remember one occasion at school. The teacher said there was some god in heaven and he just happened to be the christian god, not krishna or some other god, and I thought "this guy is more of a child than I am" or something similar. Then we were supposed to repeat the lord's prayer and I refused to repeat or learn the words or show any agreement with such a fantasy. I think I was especially angry that authority was being used to try to impose a lie so I refused to participate in any way and I told the kids in the class they were being conned. That was me when I was about seven I think. Even then I hated a con and stood up against it. My parents always supported my right to my own brain so there was nothing the teachers could do to me. I never thought of myself as brave for standing up for issues, I simply can never consider doing anything else, and I still cannot recite the lord's prayer.

I could offer my own personal theories that are not grounded in any evidence or scripture, but those theories are likely to change anyways, so I won't bother.

My personal theory is that if an all powerful god made a universe with puny creatures in it, the only use he could possibly have for them is to eat their souls when they die. It is no coincidence that christians are called sheep, who are sheared and eaten, and the last supper is a ritual of eating flesh and blood. All the christian god has to do is tell his sheep that they will go to a nice heaven so that they don't panic and try to escape. Of course the unruly ones will be roasted in hell first so they will be properly cooked.
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Offline Nick

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2015, 09:14:19 PM »
Foxy, you go girl.  A student that young standing up for herself is great.

God is one odd bird.  Makes this vast universe and in one back alley part of it makes life on this small planet.  And not a lot of people all at once like He did the other animals.  Just one dude and a ribbed woman.  That is like having an estate in every country in the world and never leaving Kansas.

Yet if they believe He will take them to this magic place.  It does not even make a good fake story.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2015, 09:26:57 PM »
Jdawg, I'm going to have to ask that you start limiting your questions to... I don't know, maybe 5! ;)
Sorry.  I tend to run my mouthkeyboard off.  Just ask Nam.

This is your introductory post, AshleyNC30.  You have every right to just push questions off; I'm just trying to get more clarity into what it is you believe and what-have you, and if you don't want to get into a lot of that here in an introduction you don't have to.  I do pose some of those questions to get you to think about the things that you're saying, but if you don't want to answer them in this thread that's fine.  Just assume that my questions are 'food for thought' and you don't really need to get into them here.  They may or may not come up again throughout conversations in the general forum areas.

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I'm going to leave the whole sleep paralysis thing alone, because even if I were to successfully convince you that what I experienced was NOT sleep paralysis, you would just find something else to bring up that it could have been.
Right, and one of those somethings elses could be exactly what you're describing.  I don't believe it is, mind you (please understand that I do believe that you had the experiences that you had, but I am not accepting your explanation for those experiences).  But it could be.

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I am aware that it could have been some intense mental issue in my brain that lasted for several hours (and days after).
Or, the sleep paralysis event last for a few minutes, and that lasting effect of several hours, days, and weeks afterwards was the result of self-reinforcement of a story you've been telling yourself - namely, that the son of god reached out to you.  I am also guessing that, while reiterating that story to yourself, you neglected to think of the many, many, many, many, many, many, many other people in the world who were not being reached out to by the son of god.

I'm not saying that's the explanation, AshleyNC30, but it's a possibility that explains the available evidence - and note that the set of available evidence is not only your experiences but the experiences of every other sentient entity we can talk to, and that within that set includes other people describing a similar experience to yours but attributing the causal agents as something either vastly different or in direct contrast to the causal agent(s) you're proposing.

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However, (and I know this will surprise you) but that actually seems LESS likely to me, than it just being God and Jesus as I believe it was.
As you are describing this as something that causes you to believe that god and Jesus exist, it is not surprising.  I just don't understand why that's the case is all.

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I think that people who know me well will have more trust in my deductive reasoning ability through my proven intelligence in the past.  This may help them believe that my experience DID happen the way that I am saying it did.  They would of course have to make their own assumptions about what it means and it would not be enough to make a believer out of a non-believer.
You realize that I'm not questioning your experiences, right?  I'm questioning what you attribute as the cause of those experiences.

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Can you tell me the moment you first remember hearing from anyone that there is a God (I mean the Christian version of a God)?  I would assume that this would be a hard thing for most people to recall since it would happen when they are very young, and possibly subtly.  Once you hear about God from someone, you make a choice to agree that he exists or not.
Pretty sure I was being informed about this god fellow since before I could rationally think.  I was raised Catholic.  I cannot at all remember when I heard about god.

If I were 20 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"
If I were 5 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"
If I were 1 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"

Do you think I would have been equipped to make a choice based on any information at 1 years old?
How much thought do you think I, as a 5 year old child, put into a question as abstract as "do you believe that god exists?"
If I were 20 years old, believing that god exists, how likely am I to question the validity of that belief that I've held onto but scarcely critically thought about for pretty much the entirety of my cognitive life?

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I agree that many people out there choose to believe that he doesn't exist.  I don't know why God wants us to make the choice.  I could offer my own personal theories that are not grounded in any evidence or scripture, but those theories are likely to change anyways, so I won't bother.
Ok but I think you really ought to seriously think about precisely what choice god is wanting us to make.  I want you to seriously think about the making the choice to believe that Bob Smith, the Prince of Space who occasionally shoots beams of light that we call The Northern Lights, exists.  Think about how you would go about choosing to actually believe that Bob Smith, the Prince of Space, exists.

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I get the idea that you have a specific post in mind and are dancing around it.  I will be glad to update my posts if you just tell me which you are curious about.
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Offline AshleyNC30

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 10:20:22 AM »
I remember one occasion at school. The teacher said there was some god in heaven and he just happened to be the christian god, not krishna or some other god, and I thought "this guy is more of a child than I am" or something similar. Then we were supposed to repeat the lord's prayer and I refused to repeat or learn the words or show any agreement with such a fantasy. I think I was especially angry that authority was being used to try to impose a lie so I refused to participate in any way and I told the kids in the class they were being conned. That was me when I was about seven I think. Even then I hated a con and stood up against it. My parents always supported my right to my own brain so there was nothing the teachers could do to me. I never thought of myself as brave for standing up for issues, I simply can never consider doing anything else, and I still cannot recite the lord's prayer.

Wow!  Was this in a public school?  That's ridiculous.  I was a teacher for several years (SAHM for now) and I would never force my beliefs on my students like that.  Christians are supposed to lead by example and in my opinion, ministering should be done very delicately.  As you can see, this teacher trying to force her beliefs on you only made your rejection of Christianity that much stronger.  So much so, that you prefer to think of God as some sort of succubus,  or maybe you just watch too much South Park :)
I am not here to support or defend organized religion.  I am here to support my belief that God and Jesus exist.

Offline Nam

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2015, 10:42:04 AM »
Christian teachers do this more often than Christians would admit to others that it happens.

When I was at a public VoTech in 1995 it was done to me when my Office Management teacher found out I was an atheist she ran to the next class (typing) and got that teacher then both of them began proselytizing at me never once caring about my viewpoint.

They do it all the time all over the US and the world and they do not either care if it's deemed wrong or not or even care about the views of the person they are proselytizing. It's all about saving our poor souls.

"Christians leading by example" -- what a righteous cliché.

-Nam
Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

Quote
I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

Offline AshleyNC30

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2015, 10:45:27 AM »
Quote
Can you tell me the moment you first remember hearing from anyone that there is a God (I mean the Christian version of a God)?  I would assume that this would be a hard thing for most people to recall since it would happen when they are very young, and possibly subtly.  Once you hear about God from someone, you make a choice to agree that he exists or not.
Pretty sure I was being informed about this god fellow since before I could rationally think.  I was raised Catholic.  I cannot at all remember when I heard about god.

If I were 20 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"
If I were 5 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"
If I were 1 years old, how meaningful do you think my choice would be in regards to the question "do you believe that god exists?"

Do you think I would have been equipped to make a choice based on any information at 1 years old?
How much thought do you think I, as a 5 year old child, put into a question as abstract as "do you believe that god exists?"

Sorry, the point I was trying to make (but seem to have lost my way when I was writing this, lol) was that I was trying to answer your question: "Can you think of any reason, whatsoever, for god to not make his existence essentially a non-question to every single sentient entity he cares about?".  I was assuming that you were basing this question on the assumption that God has not made his existence known to all already and are wondering what his reasoning would be for this.  I however was trying to work in an example for why God HAS made his existence known to all (or at least given every person the opportunity to hear about his existence) as per Romans 1:18-19.  However now that I have read the rest of the scripture that follows, I see that I had misinterpreted the meaning.  Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that everyone "knows" about God at some point in their life.

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If I were 20 years old, believing that god exists, how likely am I to question the validity of that belief that I've held onto but scarcely critically thought about for pretty much the entirety of my cognitive life?

Since you said you were raised Catholic, do you mind if I ask when you decided you didn't believe God existed, and why?  I'm assuming it happened before you were 20 because of this question.
I am not here to support or defend organized religion.  I am here to support my belief that God and Jesus exist.

Offline screwtape

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2015, 10:57:19 AM »
So much so, that you prefer to think of God as some sort of succubus, 

wtf?
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Offline Nam

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2015, 11:02:57 AM »
I don't think she knows what "succubus" means.

;)

-Nam
Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

Offline AshleyNC30

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2015, 11:03:18 AM »
Christian teachers do this more often than Christians would admit to others that it happens.

When I was at a public VoTech in 1995 it was done to me when my Office Management teacher found out I was an atheist she ran to the next class (typing) and got that teacher then both of them began proselytizing at me never once caring about my viewpoint.

They do it all the time all over the US and the world and they do not either care if it's deemed wrong or not or even care about the views of the person they are proselytizing. It's all about saving our poor souls.

"Christians leading by example" -- what a righteous cliché.

-Nam

Well regardless of how many Christians do it, I believe it's wrong.  I think too many Christians get so excited about their own belief of God's existence and how it has helped them personally that they don't remember what it was like before believing in God.  Before I believed in Jesus, anyone who came and tried to force their beliefs on me would make me furious.  They think they're helping but they're actually making it worse.  It's like the man standing on the street corner holding the cardboard sign that says "Repent!"  He's not helping, he's just making all Christians look crazy (or crazier than you already think we are).  Christians are flawed humans just like everyone else. 
I am not here to support or defend organized religion.  I am here to support my belief that God and Jesus exist.

Offline AshleyNC30

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2015, 11:06:35 AM »
Yeah I know succubus is usually a woman, but it was the only thing I could think of that was a demon.  Ok, yeah just looked it up, totally wrong word.  Um.... nevermind.
I am not here to support or defend organized religion.  I am here to support my belief that God and Jesus exist.

Offline Nam

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2015, 11:07:40 AM »
Yes, but Christians believe they will be awarded for it, either way.

-Nam


Things I've said here:

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I only have a filter for people who do not consistently beg to be belittled, ridiculed, insulted, and demeaned.

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I may believe people, as a whole, should be treated fairly but I also believe those same people are idiots.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2015, 11:11:11 AM »
Yeah I know succubus is usually a woman, but it was the only thing I could think of that was a demon.  Ok, yeah just looked it up, totally wrong word.  Um.... nevermind.

Incubus?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2015, 11:25:28 AM »
I however was trying to work in an example for why God HAS made his existence known to all (or at least given every person the opportunity to hear about his existence) as per Romans 1:18-19.  However now that I have read the rest of the scripture that follows, I see that I had misinterpreted the meaning.  Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that everyone "knows" about God at some point in their life.

But there is a categorical difference between knowing about something and knowing if that something actually exists.
I have many loved ones who still don't believe in God and I don't want to see them suffer.  I'm not sure if they ever will believe but I have to hold on to the hope that someday they might if given enough time.  All I can do is wait and be a role model because preaching to someone who doesn't believe does NOT work, it actually drives them away.  Again I know because I was that person getting angry at anyone who preached to me.  God is the only one who can make someone a believer, all we can do is soften their hearts so he can find a way in.
Surely you've brought up the concept of god to them, but god's existence is still unknown to them.  You said it yourself - only god can make someone a believer.  If that's the case, then it doesn't really matter whether or not someone other than god told you about god, right?

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Since you said you were raised Catholic, do you mind if I ask when you decided you didn't believe God existed, and why?  I'm assuming it happened before you were 20 because of this question.
It happened quite some time after 20.  It happened some time after I decided to start critically looking at what I believed.  It happened some time after I decided to take my religion more seriously.

Just as a note: I'm not sure decided is the right word to use.  It just sorta...happened.  I guess one way to put it: I was regularly looking at my belief-inventory, and at some point, I noticed that I no longer found 'belief that god exists' to be a part of that inventory.  I didn't really actively, volitionally discard it from my belief-inventory.  I suspect it got pushed out some time before I noticed it was actually gone.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #44 on: April 22, 2015, 12:14:59 PM »
Wow!  Was this in a public school?  That's ridiculous.  I was a teacher for several years (SAHM for now) and I would never force my beliefs on my students like that.  Christians are supposed to lead by example and in my opinion,

It was part of a class about religion, not forced on me personally.

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ministering should be done very delicately.

Can't you see that minstering delicately is just as bad as using force. It is using the authority of a teacher to impose a con. It was done delicately and I still refused to recite the lord's prayer.

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As you can see, this teacher trying to force her beliefs on you only made your rejection of Christianity that much stronger.  So much so, that you prefer to think of God as some sort of succubus,  or maybe you just watch too much South Park :)

I rejected christianity because it was a lie and a con, not because it was forced on me. In general christianity was not mentioned very much, but whenever it was mentioned I treated it as a fantasy and I said what I thought about it. I never hid what I thought about religion.

You might be wondering how I knew at a young age that when a teacher spoke about religion that he or she was repeating a fantasy. I can't remember how I knew that religion was nonsense, but I do remember that it was totally obvious to me that religion was complete fantasy. It was precisely because it was so obvious to me that religion was nonsense, that I disliked so-called adults talking about childish fantasies.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #45 on: April 22, 2015, 01:43:51 PM »
Just thinking about how I knew that teachers were talking nonsense when they talked about religion.

I think it was because I had a huge experience of meeting adults, and I was used to hearing them talk nonsense. So I was different because my background was different. It was not because my parents were atheists. I had no knowledge about my parents beliefs since they never mentioned their beliefs, but they did let me hear about Krishna Consciousness which was open minded of them, especially when I became interested to hear more, but even with that I did not believe in the gods and I liked the Buddhist version better.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #46 on: April 22, 2015, 06:15:06 PM »
Ashley, do you have evidence that your experience was real?

If so, please provide it. I don't take word-of-mouth.

If you believe god exists, and has already done the grope-you-while-you-sleep-thing, just ask him to do it again, and then tell us how to repeat it so we may all swiftly become theists.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: New Christian Intro
« Reply #47 on: April 23, 2015, 07:13:41 AM »
Just a reminder to all, intro threads are not debate threads.  You may ask questions to clarify what the OP thinks or means, but no debates. 

Thanks.


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