Author Topic: ...then what good is your god?  (Read 14697 times)

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Offline OnePerson

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2010, 11:21:30 PM »
It's a common theological mistake in these debates (and i think it's Christians own fault) for Skeptics to believe that Christians believe God made the world perfect, and that if you can expose a flaw in the world, you have exposed a flaw in their theology.

Actually, most of us are just going off the Bible.

Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2010, 11:25:06 PM »
Quote from: UniversityStudent
I know a lot of you live that way, you care about others welfare sometimes much more than your own, and you want to see the world improved even if you don't live to see it. I believe you owe those convictions to a carpenter from the bronze age, that if he didn't teach the guys who taught the guys who taught, the guys who screwed it up a little bit before they taught the guys, who taught the guys and girls, who taught the people who set the foundation for this world we live in, you'd be living by different convictions. You have all been saved by Jesus.

Wow, talk about ethnocentric.

Well yeah.

Unfortunately when you believe god became a man and died for the world you unavoidably have to believe that that event changed all of history in all of the world forever. I'm actually less ethnocentric then most, in the sense that I believe that not all of those people influenced by Jesus way of thinking who taught others in turn were "christians" per say.

But yes, there's some centrism there... More "christocentrism" then ethnocentrism, but still...
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #60 on: September 06, 2010, 11:25:37 PM »
It's a common theological mistake in these debates (and i think it's Christians own fault) for Skeptics to believe that Christians believe God made the world perfect, and that if you can expose a flaw in the world, you have exposed a flaw in their theology.

Actually, most of us are just going off the Bible.

read the rest of it
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Offline Doctor X

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2010, 11:35:44 PM »
Which god in the biblical texts?

--J.D.

Offline Alzael

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2010, 11:54:11 PM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2010, 12:08:33 AM »
UP

First of all, you mentioned above that I wandered. I do that. Your Moses wandered for 40 years, I should be allowed to wander for 12 paragraphs.

Just kidding. It is perfectly acceptable to call people on it (me included) if you feel I/they are wandering. Of course some will say they weren't, that they were bringing up valid points, and that may or may not be the point.

If it's me that you're saying is wandering, I'm pretty sure you'll be right. Once I get a keyboard in my hand I'm dangerous, and I have no idea how to shoot straight with one.

As you can see from the latest group of responses, some of us are pretty sensitive to what we call the OneTrueChristian™ syndrome. I'm starting to think that we should lighten up a bit, especially when the Christian involved is still trying to be civil. Obviously our two sides are at polar opposites. Perhaps we shouldn't be so picky about which opposite others represent, or seem to have invented.

That's not up to me, and I may be about to get kicked out of the Atheists International House of Pancakes and Cynicism Society, but being a bit less accusatory to individuals that are merely expressing their view of Christianity is going to get old ten or twelve years from now if that is all we do.

I for one am willing to accept your form of Christianity as you explain and debate it here. Since no Christian has been able to satisfactorily explain how they justify the many differences that exist within the label of your religion, maybe we should just give up and attack folks on a need-to-beat-up basis.

I'd be happy to debate you about most anything, but you should keep in mind that if the subject is purely biblical (such as the crucifixion you mentioned above), I'm way less qualified than even those two guys hanging next to Jesus when it comes to the subject. I certainly have my opinions on the story, and like most atheists, I lump the death and cave thing and reappearance and rising bit as one event that took place over several days. And my knowledge of the bible is right up there with general relativity or running an organized crime ring. I know very very little. That's just a heads up.

Others here are much better versed in biblical happenings. So I'm sure you can get opponents if you ask nice.

I don't think I'm wandering when I make this comment. In the same long post you mentioned that the importance of Jesus was his offering of peace in a world with little, if I read you right. And that we need Jesus because humans have been messing up (in God's eyes) ever since about the third week in Eden (just guessing on the date, but not the location) and being saved from that non-genetically transmitted trait is the big issue. Needless to say I could go postal, anal and ballistic all at once if you were being a smug little creep, but since you're not, I'll just go with the flow for now. It's not that I doubt your sincerity, but that I doubt any such thing happened and to draw such conclusions colors so many peoples view of the world that it's more or less impossible to fix anything beyond computer bugs and porch lights.

It might be time for you to start a thread, perhaps limiting the involvement of others, or letting it start out freeform and then choosing a few folks that you could ask to join you in the Discussion Rooms. I PM'd you early because I thought that it would be interesting to have a Christian without a really big chip on his shoulder involved in some of discussions here. There have been a few before, but it certainly isn't the norm, and it might be a nice change of pace for all but the most pugilistic amongst us.

Of course, just to be nice, you could give us a response to Odin's OP,re: then what good is your god? so that we could move on to other discussion. You may have done that to some degree: my reading is sometimes as wanderish as my writing. If not, it might be a way for you to practice or get used to us or something before jumping into a new subject picked by you. This is me thinking off the top of my head, which works less often than the law of averages would predict, so ignore me if that makes more sense.

Anyway, I do hope you stick around. Well, I'm hoping the "remain civil, intelligent, well-spoken, and with a sense of humor" type stick around. We've had the other kind in spades and it's no fun.

Well, it was fun, they just never knew it. At least none have ever departed with a "Wheeeeeeee!"
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2010, 12:12:36 AM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?

As a human, with opinions. I really have no choice but to think I'm right.

Frustratingly, every time I begin to humbly think I'm wrong about something, my opinions change on me such that they once again coincide with what I believe.

I know it's considered virtuous to not think you're right about anything, but I just can't seem to avoid it. Every time I try to believe something I don't believe, I fail.

Sorry.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2010, 12:26:30 AM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?

As a human, with opinions. I really have no choice but to think I'm right.

Frustratingly, every time I begin to humbly think I'm wrong about something, my opinions change on me such that they once again coincide with what I believe.

I know it's considered virtuous to not think you're right about anything, but I just can't seem to avoid it. Every time I try to believe something I don't believe, I fail.

Sorry.

So, your opinion is valid because you believe so? Well, that's certainly disappointing.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2010, 01:00:46 AM »
Hey PP, What I quoted below seemed to be your point, the rest, if i understood it correctly, was syntactical stuff about debate. It made sense, I appreciate your cooperative spirit, always good to chat with you.

The only other thing I really wanted to say about the post other than the bit I quoted was the little bit where you suggested I respond to OP. In my world, to my understanding, I did. You might not feel it was adequate, or you might just not have seen it (it's about the 5th one down). Now the way I'm used to doing forums, and I understand this one might be different, we don't ever "move on to other discussion" either I'm right or I'm wrong, either I make sense or I don't make sense, and when we want to talk about something else we start a new thread.

I would love to see an argument on the internet end with "Hey yeah, that's a really good point, that answers my question" /thread.
I understand it's a crazy fantasy, but a guy can dream.

Meanwhile it's perfectly understandable for the subject to switch as I (or other theists) offer things as answers which in themselves need to be defended or explained. For example, i mentioned following the teachings of Jesus "making the word a better place" and If i were on ya'll's team I would be tearing that apart and nailing me with all the atrocities committed in the name of Jesus and forcing me to account for it. But that's just me, I'm not here to tell you how to win your debates.

Is that not how we do it here? (that's a serious question I'm not being sarcastic)

Is it more like "we have a theist, this is a special treat, he's on this thread, okay, he seems to have addressed that, I'm gonna ask him this..."?


And by the way speaking of other theists...Where are the other theists? Did I scare them all away when I shut down biblestudent in my first thread? Or are they just that scarce now?



Meh, Here's your quote.
I don't think I'm wandering when I make this comment. In the same long post you mentioned that the importance of Jesus was his offering of peace in a world with little, if I read you right. And that we need Jesus because humans have been messing up (in God's eyes) ever since about the third week in Eden (just guessing on the date, but not the location) and being saved from that non-genetically transmitted trait is the big issue. Needless to say I could go postal, anal and ballistic all at once if you were being a smug little creep, but since you're not, I'll just go with the flow for now. It's not that I doubt your sincerity, but that I doubt any such thing happened and to draw such conclusions colors so many peoples view of the world that it's more or less impossible to fix anything beyond computer bugs and porch lights.

I'm not sure what you mean about porch lights, but I think I get your drift.

Yeah I did use that terminology that
 it was made perfect | We broke it | now we're in the "middle" |

I like that picture the
Eden | Fall | Christ | Kingdom
Timeline

Here's the thing though, It's more important symbolically, than literally.

Genesis might be literal, it might not, I'm not debating that, the point is the picture, and I really like the picture as an explanation of the Christian story, as being "between the trees" Genesis and Revelation with the cross in the middle... But maybe on second thought it's not very helpful language in this group considering what you all have to associate that with.

Here's the point.

It's not so much that Adam sinned, whether he's real or not doesn't change the story it's just a placeholder

It's that we sin, we in and of ourself participate in making the world a worse place to live in. Very few humans throughout history have done anything nearly redemptive enough even to justify their own carbon footprint, and many have hurt others, often very badly. I believe Jesus came to change all that, and that his sacrifice marked a new era in human history wherein humans begin to look beyond themselves and reach out in love.

I also believe that we've mostly failed at that, both inside and outside the church, but I think we're getting better, and we will get better

So the big idea here is that humans have been a force for the destruction of the world, and now we're invited to become a force for it's redemption.

(and in the middle there's the cleft palates and stuff we had been talking about)
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2010, 01:03:40 AM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?

As a human, with opinions. I really have no choice but to think I'm right.

Frustratingly, every time I begin to humbly think I'm wrong about something, my opinions change on me such that they once again coincide with what I believe.

I know it's considered virtuous to not think you're right about anything, but I just can't seem to avoid it. Every time I try to believe something I don't believe, I fail.

Sorry.

So, your opinion is valid because you believe so? Well, that's certainly disappointing.

i think my opinion is valid because I believe so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you

If you figure out another way to do it let me know
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Offline Alzael

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2010, 01:08:51 AM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?

As a human, with opinions. I really have no choice but to think I'm right.

Frustratingly, every time I begin to humbly think I'm wrong about something, my opinions change on me such that they once again coincide with what I believe.

I know it's considered virtuous to not think you're right about anything, but I just can't seem to avoid it. Every time I try to believe something I don't believe, I fail.

Sorry.

So, your opinion is valid because you believe so? Well, that's certainly disappointing.

i think my opinion is valid because I believe so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you

If you figure out another way to do it let me know

I don't know. You could try having evidence to support it.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2010, 01:24:15 AM »
I just have one simple question. What is it that makes you think that your version of god is anymore valid than any other Christians?

As a human, with opinions. I really have no choice but to think I'm right.

Frustratingly, every time I begin to humbly think I'm wrong about something, my opinions change on me such that they once again coincide with what I believe.

I know it's considered virtuous to not think you're right about anything, but I just can't seem to avoid it. Every time I try to believe something I don't believe, I fail.

Sorry.

So, your opinion is valid because you believe so? Well, that's certainly disappointing.

i think my opinion is valid because I believe so.

I'm sorry to disappoint you

If you figure out another way to do it let me know

I don't know. You could try having evidence to support it.

Oh you're earnestly looking for the "why" in terms of how I came to the conclusion. I'm sorry. i thought that question was more of a "what makes you think you're so smart and everybody else is so dumb" in which case responding with something like "Well because of these three verses in the bible and this book i read by some guy" would seem infantile and arrogant.

I'm still confused though.

You are asking me about my exegesis?

Are you sure?

I mean you're basically inviting me to preach to you. you're asking me a theological question, we've now left debating theism behind and we're on bible study. Is that really what you want? Because it's not like you believe any of it anyway...

Unless I completely misunderstood your tone in the question and it was more like "I just have one simple question, and if you can answer this I'll totally convert to being your type of christian because you're that awesome"

but I don't think that's it...
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Offline Alzael

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2010, 01:51:16 AM »

Oh you're earnestly looking for the "why" in terms of how I came to the conclusion. I'm sorry. i thought that question was more of a "what makes you think you're so smart and everybody else is so dumb" in which case responding with something like "Well because of these three verses in the bible and this book i read by some guy" would seem infantile and arrogant.

I'm still confused though.

You are asking me about my exegesis?

Are you sure?

I mean you're basically inviting me to preach to you. you're asking me a theological question, we've now left debating theism behind and we're on bible study. Is that really what you want? Because it's not like you believe any of it anyway...

Unless I completely misunderstood your tone in the question and it was more like "I just have one simple question, and if you can answer this I'll totally convert to being your type of christian because you're that awesome"

but I don't think that's it...

Every christian comes complete with a magic decoder ring that tells them that they know exactly what the bible said and what it means. Every decoder ring translates the text differently. However none of them can provide any evidence why their version should be taken anymore seriously than any other, even though they claim to know what it really means. So why should your comments about what the bible really means be given any credence? What evidence do you have to provide that your thoughts on the bible have any veracity? So far in this thread you've been polite and seem like a thoughtful, reasonably intelligent person. Aside from that, however, you have yet to offer anything that makes your version of christianity anymore valid than what every other christian throws around.
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Offline plethora

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2010, 04:38:16 AM »
I looked up Kingdom Theology. Yet another spin on Christianity based on picking and chosing the verses that seem to agree with the theist members' preconcieved notions and discards the verses that seem to disagree with them.

Perhaps you are already familiar with the term "Self Projection as God":

Quote from: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/SPAG
Self projection as god, or SPAG for short, is a process of psychological projection in which believers redefine or anticipate the wishes of their god to suit their personal beliefs, needs, and sensibilities. In support of SPAG, believers cherry pick from scripture and devise a belief system reflecting their own personal needs and desires.

This is exactly what you are doing and that is exactly what thousands of other sects of christianity are doing.

If you have something to offer in support of your claims and beliefs that the others don't, by all means let us have it. Otherwise you are merely being as arrogant as they are.

... and quit the 'off topic' crap. Sure, some comments are irrelevant... but many follow the discussion. Based on your own criteria, we should scratch out a good chunk of irrelevant preaching you have done in this thread.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2010, 05:02:04 AM »
....the question's good Anf, the question of why God doesn't appear to you. It's fair and I think it'd be a good one to stat another thread about (unfortunately I'm in about 5 active threads right now which is about my limit, so if you started one this instant I probably wouldn't join it)

Can you see where I'm coming from?

With respect, I think it is perfectly valid to continue the line of thought here.

Odin asked "if god does not heal amputees, then what good is he?"
You replied "what he is good for is in the relationship he has with us" (obviously paraphrasing for both.

Except.....he does NOT have a relationship with me.  And so he is not good for that, either.  And so I echo Odin: "then what good is your god"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline OnePerson

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2010, 05:59:00 AM »
It's a common theological mistake in these debates (and i think it's Christians own fault) for Skeptics to believe that Christians believe God made the world perfect, and that if you can expose a flaw in the world, you have exposed a flaw in their theology.

Actually, most of us are just going off the Bible.

read the rest of it

We do, but then someone comes and says "You didn't read it the right way."

Offline plethora

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2010, 06:22:09 AM »
... we give him a verse which contradicts his OP... he discards it and then fails to tell us the which is the 'correct' version of the bible claiming it's 'off topic' ... BULLSHIT.
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2010, 06:35:11 AM »
Every christian comes complete with a magic decoder ring that tells them that they know exactly what the bible said and what it means. Every decoder ring translates the text differently. However none of them can provide any evidence why their version should be taken anymore seriously than any other, even though they claim to know what it really means. So why should your comments about what the bible really means be given any credence? What evidence do you have to provide that your thoughts on the bible have any veracity? So far in this thread you've been polite and seem like a thoughtful, reasonably intelligent person. Aside from that, however, you have yet to offer anything that makes your version of christianity anymore valid than what every other christian throws around.

Well, unlike them, I can defend my version of Christianity...

::hold for laughs::

::keep holding awkwardly::

...

...Okay maybe that's yet to be demonstrated...Yeah



Well let me say again Alzael, in a less sarcastic way, that I acknowledge it's just my opinion. I don't know, this is what I think. You ask me what a believe about these questions ans I answer you, this is what I believe. you ask me what I do with certain challenges and I answer you, this is how it makes sense to me. I could be wrong. In fact chances are, I probably am wrong on more than one point in my theology that's just the odds.

I should also include the addition that this is my opinion today. Everything is subject to change if i hear a better oponion or am introduced to some contradictory evidence.

I make no claim on who is and who is not a TrueChristian[tm]. I'm not making judgments that Christians of different opinions aren't saved or aren't going to heaven, or don't really read the bible because if they did they'd agree with me point for point. Anymore than different Physicists would say that others that have different theories aren't really Physicists.

I do however think my opinion is right, while there's is wrong, like I already said I have no choice. But I could be mistaken, I'm open to that

Anyway if you're interested in how I came to my conclusions. that's a fair, and unfortunately probably long and drawn out question. I have a lot of ideas, and I believe them for a lot of reasons, we could literaly spend hours going through scripture with me explaining why i interpret a verse one way and you saying you think it's another, and me saying I cross reference it over here and here, and you saying you think the literary context puts it more in line with the verses over there, and I saying that that wouldn't make sense considering the historical background and so on.

But I'll give you an example, for one of the more controversial theologies I have mentioned in this forum, My take on Universalism (the possibility that all might be saved). If you are interested to hear more about another doctrine, feel free to ask. I think this one is a good example, and I think it is long enough to bore you without involving 5 more

The Myroslov Vulfian Distinction I mentioned is of course from Myroslov Vulf. Who's now a Professor at Yale Divinity school. A simply brilliant man, he is also the primary advocate for another theological idea with a wonderfully sesquapedilian name "Eschatological Non-Remembrance" which states, (if i may take the liberty of rephrasing it colloquially) that in heaven I will finally get that Miley Cyrus song out of my head!

I think the reasons I came to favor it are obvious, I have had enough conversations with folks like you who have heart for truth and righteousness, and spend enough time practicing love and grace, and appreciating those aspects of God, that it's easy to "Hope for the truth of christian universalism" And of course there's all the contradictions you're ready to challenge me on "how could a loving god send me to hell" and all that. Well maybe you're right, maybe he won't.

Besides that, the biblical support for it is shockingly weak. For all the rhetoric you hear about how clear the bible is about damnation you would think it's every third sentence, but it's just not. Damnation is mentioned, certainty, hell is talked about, it's described in ridiculously limited detail, It's threatened. But it's very very difficult to find any passage that actually says "and people will go there". The possibility of an empty hell is incredibly...plausible.

The one verse I can find is the parable of the sheep and the goats. In that it pretty clearly says, that there will be sheep, and there will be goats, and they will be separated and the sheep will come into Gods presence and receive an inheritance, and the goats will go to "eternal hellfire prepared for the devil and his angles" So that's pretty explicit. but then you have to consider the Old Testament.

I mean God's in the habit of talking tough.
Look at the sacrificial system. "for the atonement of sins, you must sacrifice an Ox"
"Well... Unless you don't have an Ox... then you can sacrifice a Ram, it's okay"
"Unless you can't afford a ram, then just sacrifice a lamb...but it better be a really really good lamb"
"You don't have a lamb? you can't get a lamb? Okay, two turtle doves. they're cheap, you got this"
"Okay Okay if you're really really poor you can sacrifice... an eff of flour."
"Or an Ox, ya know... if you wouldn't mind..."

And how many times in Isiah alone did god swear that he was done and over the Isrealites? That he would destroy them utterly, that they would no longer be his people that he would no longer be their God? Only to forgive them later in the book.

Oh and also there's this bow tie chiasm that was explained to me by Dr. Mittendorf (my OT prof) which lines up really nice with it (Dorf's not a universalist, it just happens that the theology I liked from him clicked nicely together with the theology I liked from Vulf)

The idea of the bow tie is that the old testament is a narrowing down, and the new testament is a widening out. Old testament begining with all of creation, narrowed to Abraham, 12 tribes, narrowed to smaller and smaller remnant, till we're at one guy the messiah. New testament starts with Jesus, 12 disciples, to a larger group of Jewish people to the gentiles until ultimately it closes again on all of creation in the Kingdom of God

It just makes sense with that theme, and with what i know of God's personality that that all of creation would include all of creation from all of history.

Then of course the question comes "Okay okay sheesh, you've given me way more than I needed on why you hope for the truth of christian universalism, It made sense to begin with, Why are you not a christian universalist?"

Good question.

There is that one verse...





...Consider this though, After all that and whether you like it or not, whether you think it's a good interpretation or not.. Does it really matter? If this is what I believe, and I defend it, and it makes sense, and it's consistent...Who cares what the other Christians think? What If I just made it up, or it came to me while meditation, this is what I believe, is it or is it not true. Let the Christians worry about whether or not it's christian
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Offline plethora

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2010, 07:37:25 AM »
^^ You said you drew your OP conclusion from the bible. The 'whole' bible.

To me, the 'whole' bible includes Mark 16:17. You don't think it does... Fine. So I asked that you point me to the bible that you consider to be the correct version. I'm not being unreasonable here and it's not off topic.

As it stands I just told you about the god I believe in, and it's frankly immaterial, whether that God is biblical or not.

... yet you defend your version of christianity with your interpretation of the bible. You even give examples taken from it. So knowing which bible version is very relevant.

Anyway ... I'm past caring which bible version you consider to be correct. It seems to me you've created your own personal SPAG version so you can't even point me to it if you wanted to... unless you've got a compiled version somewhere.


EDIT: This post was a reply to UP's post. After I posted my reply and several minutes later... he deleted his post. Intellectual dishonesty comes in many forms. I will not treat UP any differently just because he gives the appearance of being well mannered and polite.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 08:08:35 AM by plethora »
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Offline jetson

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2010, 07:40:12 AM »
Quote from: UP
Let the Christians worry about whether or not it's christian

I did read the whole post, but this stuck out.  I really, really wish the Christians would worry only about each other!  That would be swell!

Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2010, 07:47:58 AM »
Quote from: UP
Let the Christians worry about whether or not it's christian

I did read the whole post, but this stuck out.  I really, really wish the Christians would worry only about each other!  That would be swell!

You know honestly I agree with you.

Obviously not in the "shut up and stop ruining everything" kind of way. but seriously. We are so worried as a church about what might possibly be going on in other people's beds, or what Hollywood puts out and how immoral it is or what is and isn't hanging in the courtrooms... Honestly, we need to shut up and get ourselves in line first.
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Offline Whateverman

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #79 on: September 07, 2010, 07:49:51 AM »
Quote from: UP
Let the Christians worry about whether or not it's christian

I did read the whole post, but this stuck out.  I really, really wish the Christians would worry only about each other!  That would be swell!

You know honestly I agree with you.

Obviously not in the "shut up and stop ruining everything" kind of way. but seriously. We are so worried as a church about what might possibly be going on in other people's beds, or what Hollywood puts out and how immoral it is or what is and isn't hanging in the courtrooms... Honestly, we need to shut up and get ourselves in line first.
I personally would have less of an "issue" with Christianity if I saw this happen.  Glass houses and stone throwing and all that...
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #80 on: September 07, 2010, 07:53:45 AM »
Quote from: UP
Let the Christians worry about whether or not it's christian

I did read the whole post, but this stuck out.  I really, really wish the Christians would worry only about each other!  That would be swell!

You know honestly I agree with you.

Obviously not in the "shut up and stop ruining everything" kind of way. but seriously. We are so worried as a church about what might possibly be going on in other people's beds, or what Hollywood puts out and how immoral it is or what is and isn't hanging in the courtrooms... Honestly, we need to shut up and get ourselves in line first.
I personally would have less of an "issue" with Christianity if I saw this happen.  Glass houses and stone throwing and all that...

Workin' on it...
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Offline William

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #81 on: September 07, 2010, 07:57:09 AM »
In fact chances are, I probably am wrong on more than one point in my theology that's just the odds.

UniversityPastor you are interesting - on the one hand I admire your attitude and courage to acknowledge you may be wrong.

I should also include the addition that this is my opinion today. Everything is subject to change if i hear a better oponion or am introduced to some contradictory evidence.

On the other hand I see you will simply shift your beliefs to where you feel your excusiology can still make some sort of a stand.  How can you be bold enough to espouse your beliefs without evidence, but then shift when challenged by "contradictory evidence" WITHOUT jettisoning your faith?

I'm not saying that people are not allowed to change/shift their minds about God and religion - I did it myself and it wasn't a short or simple or pretty processes - I clung to many half-baked positions on the way to atheism.  But as the foundations of my faith crumbled in the face of evidence and reality I could not defend my fallback position at any time - only my shifting.

I put it to you that if you are prepared to shift your faith on the basis of evidence, then ultimately the only thing you can have legitimate faith in is the evidence before you now.

A God should know this.
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Offline plethora

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #82 on: September 07, 2010, 08:06:02 AM »
@UP

What's this? You've deleted your post after I replied to it.

I guess you'll do with your posts the same thing you do with your theology. Ignore the bits you don't like and pretend they don't count.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2010, 08:30:37 AM by plethora »
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #83 on: September 07, 2010, 08:15:11 AM »
@UP

What's this? You've deleted your post after I replied to it.

I guess you'll with your posts the same thing you do with your theology. Ignore the bits you don't like and pretend they don't count.


Sorry buddy,

I deleted the post before you published, but it must have been after you clicked reply while you were writing. When i replied to you I was only replying to the one message, I had missed the other one you posted earlier... Once I read that one, and put 2 and 2 together with the other one. I decided it was probably better just not to reply at all.

So sorry to have put you out.
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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #84 on: September 07, 2010, 08:22:53 AM »
University Pastor,

Welcome.  It is refreshing to have a Christian member who is cordial and does not shout verses at us. 

I would like to suggest as an option that you take up a discussion in the Discussion rooms.  That will allow you to select a specific topic and, most importantly, limit the number of participants.  That way you will not have to deal with being badgered for not answering questions.  This is the link to the rules.  If you have any questions about it, please feel free to PM me.

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Offline plethora

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #85 on: September 07, 2010, 08:43:12 AM »
@UP

I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt here. I've given my opinion and now I'll let go of this issue.
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Offline Whateverman

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #86 on: September 07, 2010, 08:55:53 AM »
How can you be bold enough to espouse your beliefs without evidence, but then shift when challenged by "contradictory evidence" WITHOUT jettisoning your faith?
You've answered your own question (bolding mine).
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