Author Topic: ...then what good is your god?  (Read 14695 times)

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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #116 on: September 11, 2010, 02:13:23 AM »
Has any theist in the history of this site announced that he/she has now understood what they have not understood forever and announced that they agree with our points and chuck their religion?

Vynn.

Vynn was an atheist when I knew him... At least I thought he was
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Offline sammylama

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #117 on: September 11, 2010, 02:38:25 AM »
Next time I'll grab a thread about the existence of a deity or something, and we can talk about my hard argumentation.

or how about Jesus as a historical figure. Then you can actually reasonably demand of me manuscript evidence.

I can anticipate you will trot out Josepheus as your manuscript evidence. But perhaps you have some manuscript evidence that no one has seen yet and that will amaze us all. However, you will most likely be like others in using Josepheus. Before you do though take another look at what he is purported to have written and you will see what you will put forward is forged and added later. There is no contemporary historical evidence whatsoever to support there was a jesus. I wonder how betrayed you would feel if, when you open your closed mind and see what is real, you discover you have been fed lies all of your life. I doubt you will feel anything as the chances are that you won't open your mind. In fact opening your mind is anethema to you.

You could take your "evidence" for a historical Jesus here:  No evidence for Jesus...
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Offline jetson

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #118 on: September 11, 2010, 09:39:53 AM »

You could take your "evidence" for a historical Jesus here:  No evidence for Jesus...

Ha!  I just went over that old thread again!  I think I am going to hit my theist friends with this question again.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #119 on: September 11, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »
Vynn was an atheist when I knew him... At least I thought he was

I am an elder of the forums, and I watched Vynn's transformation.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #120 on: September 11, 2010, 12:56:56 PM »
Vynn was an atheist when I knew him... At least I thought he was

I am an elder of the forums, and I watched Vynn's transformation.


So you are.

What happened? Was he a Creationist first, and then turned and began arguing for the other side? And then apparently "went crazy and left"
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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #121 on: September 11, 2010, 01:48:58 PM »
He was what I can only describe as a hippyish theist-lite. He had a god belief that seemed much like yours, but I can't speak to his epistemological approach.

And, yes, I suspect he had some sort of personal crisis that bled into his forum persona's general attitude about a few mole hills.     
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #122 on: September 11, 2010, 04:15:55 PM »

I agree with HAL as to the last statement.  The Creator of the Universe made me, and desires to have a relationship with me.  But, the best he can do is the Bible?  Can't I at least have a sign of some sort?
apparently not

When an individual (A) acts in a way that is not condusive to achieving a particular goal (X), then there are a few interpretations that pop up:

1. (A) does not hold goal (X).
2. (A) may hold goal (X), but has more important priorities than (X) which preclude achieving (X).
3. (A) is incapable of achieving (X) due to practical limitations.

Which do you think is true in this case, where (A) is your god, and (X) is achieving a personal relationship with, say, HAL?
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #123 on: September 11, 2010, 04:42:15 PM »
2
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #124 on: September 11, 2010, 05:19:29 PM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #125 on: September 12, 2010, 01:06:04 AM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end. I don't know HAL, I don't know what he wants in life or thinks about the possibility of a God, but I rather suspect, that in addition to not finding sufficient evidence for a God, HAL doesn't particularly want to, He's happy with out an existent God and it would be really kind of needy and unnecessary for God to show up at your doorstep with flowers crying "baby please"

I also have a theory regarding the shape of the church and the apparent evidence for God, but you guys don't want to hear me preach, let alone, hear out of me yet another unpopular theological theory.

Bottom line, relationship, teaching, and sanctification is what I've found God good for. Your mileage may vary on the relationship end. I'm okay with that.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #126 on: September 12, 2010, 02:07:49 AM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end. I don't know HAL, I don't know what he wants in life or thinks about the possibility of a God, but I rather suspect, that in addition to not finding sufficient evidence for a God, HAL doesn't particularly want to, He's happy with out an existent God...

Sure.  Then Hal dies and God sends him to hell for eternity.  To say it is "better" for God to leave him in his happiness is rather a short-term view, especially for an eternal God that is alleged to love us all, and want a relationship with us.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #127 on: September 12, 2010, 03:15:53 AM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end. I don't know HAL, I don't know what he wants in life or thinks about the possibility of a God, but I rather suspect, that in addition to not finding sufficient evidence for a God, HAL doesn't particularly want to, He's happy with out an existent God...

Sure.  Then Hal dies and God sends him to hell for eternity.  To say it is "better" for God to leave him in his happiness is rather a short-term view, especially for an eternal God that is alleged to love us all, and want a relationship with us.

Well listen, If you don't like God, you wouldn't like heaven much anyway.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #128 on: September 12, 2010, 09:24:39 AM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end. I don't know HAL, I don't know what he wants in life or thinks about the possibility of a God, but I rather suspect, that in addition to not finding sufficient evidence for a God, HAL doesn't particularly want to, He's happy with out an existent God and it would be really kind of needy and unnecessary for God to show up at your doorstep with flowers crying "baby please"

I also have a theory regarding the shape of the church and the apparent evidence for God, but you guys don't want to hear me preach, let alone, hear out of me yet another unpopular theological theory.

Bottom line, relationship, teaching, and sanctification is what I've found God good for. Your mileage may vary on the relationship end. I'm okay with that.

If it is all conjecture on your end, then on what reasonable basis can you claim (2) instead of (1)?  The rest of your post doesn't address my question, although it does go out of its way to tease with an answer that remains hidden.

Preaching is putting forth one's opinions without being willing to discuss them, simply for the sake of spreading the words around.  It's not preaching if the opinions are being given in order to respond to a query by someone else.
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Offline Odin

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #129 on: September 12, 2010, 02:06:58 PM »
I also have a theory regarding the shape of the church and the apparent evidence for God, but you guys don't want to hear me preach, let alone, hear out of me yet another unpopular theological theory.

We might want to hear it.  That's really what most of us are here for.  We know we can't change the world.  One billion + folks on Earth believe in a big spook in the sky, who sent his son to die for our sins and pardon us for all eternity.  One billion + folks believe one son of Abraham is really the father of the people who were given the true word of god by an angel over 23 years.  One billion + folks believe in reincarnation, and that the world sits on the back of a hare which sits on the back of a tortoise, and then it turtles all the way down, baby!

In other words, almost 5 billion out of 6.5 billion people in the world believe some really unbelievable stuff.

So, if you have some proof, let's hear it.  Tell us what good your god is.  Do it here, or start a new thread.

Caveat: Faith doesn't matter, and won't serve as proof.  My first wife had faith, her family had faith, I had faith, and all who came and prayed for her had faith.  But, she had malignant metastatic melanoma, and she was in the 94% who don't survive for five years.  Prayer doesn't work, and faith doesn't matter.

So, show us the evidence that will convince us the world works in a way other than the way a world would work if there were no god or gods.  (Sorry, you know what I mean.)

Odin, King of the Gods

PS - The Bible, Koran, and other holy books are important only because they came into being when writing immortalized the mythologies of the times.  If tape cassette recording had been developed before writing (and printing), I suspect we could be studying the "Holy Tapes."

Offline William

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #130 on: September 12, 2010, 05:04:55 PM »
And to answer your question, yes, I think Jesus is a savior, in so many ways, and he saves us from a great multitude of things, one of them may or may not be hell, one of them is almost certainly the distance we had felt from God, but the one I'm most excited about is that he saves us from our old way of living.

UP I've been thinking about this  :)  This is good.  You're onto something with this. I think the world is ready for this.  This plus being able to walk with science and away from awkward parts of the bible could be really big.  Probably bigger than Deepak Chopra if you play it right.
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Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #131 on: September 12, 2010, 05:14:56 PM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end. I don't know HAL, I don't know what he wants in life or thinks about the possibility of a God, but I rather suspect, that in addition to not finding sufficient evidence for a God, HAL doesn't particularly want to, He's happy with out an existent God...

Sure.  Then Hal dies and God sends him to hell for eternity.  To say it is "better" for God to leave him in his happiness is rather a short-term view, especially for an eternal God that is alleged to love us all, and want a relationship with us.

Well listen, If you don't like God, you wouldn't like heaven much anyway.

Well, ain't THAT a daisy lol.

True enough, though. I KNOW I wouldn't like it. It's full of Christians, for one. Plus all the movies are rated "G" and you're knee-deep in 3 - 4,000 years worth of collected foreskins.

All of history's greatest artists, philosophers, poets and musicians are in hell anyways. Much better company.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #132 on: September 13, 2010, 01:16:15 AM »
Then Hal dies and God sends him to hell for eternity.  To say it is "better" for God to leave him in his happiness is rather a short-term view, especially for an eternal God that is alleged to love us all, and want a relationship with us.

Well listen, If you don't like God, you wouldn't like heaven much anyway.

Oh well, that's alright then.  THAT clearly shows how all-loving god is.  I don't like him, so clearly eternal torture is the loving alternative.  Good point.  If my children ever decide they don't want to live with me, then I should ship them straight off to the worse torture-camp there ever is.  For ever.

God isn't all-loving, I know that.  Or even mostly loving.  Thanks for being honest enough to agree.
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #133 on: September 13, 2010, 01:29:34 AM »
If we do not know anything about what that goal might be, then how is (2) distinguishable from (1)?

Who really knows? It's all conjecture on my end.

If it is all conjecture on your end, then on what reasonable basis can you claim (2) instead of (1)?

Coherance theory of truth.

Pretty much that's the way it all make sense inside my head

You have to understand as you ask that, that you are entering a debate 3 questions in, away from the claim I profess to be able to establish objectively.

Me (by proxy): there is a god
You Guys: then why can't he heal amputees?
Me: He doesn't heal much of anybody
You Guys: Then What Good is he
Me: He's good for these three things, A,B,C
You Guys: Then what's the deal with HAL, and point A?
Me: I think the deal with HAL is this....
You: How can you objectively establish that?

Well I made no claim that I could objectively establish that. That's a question about my theology. And it makes sense to ask me about my theology, because if you can show that it's incoherent, or internally inconsistent, then it damages my defense of the first claim (that some god exists) but it makes no sense to expect me to have objective evidence not only for god, but for everything I believe about him.

Put another way, We stopped asking a long time ago "what is true?" and started asking "okay, if that were true, would it make any sense"
« Last Edit: September 13, 2010, 01:36:35 AM by UniversityPastor »
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #134 on: September 13, 2010, 01:35:09 AM »
And to answer your question, yes, I think Jesus is a savior, in so many ways, and he saves us from a great multitude of things, one of them may or may not be hell, one of them is almost certainly the distance we had felt from God, but the one I'm most excited about is that he saves us from our old way of living.

UP I've been thinking about this  :)  This is good.  You're onto something with this. I think the world is ready for this.  This plus being able to walk with science and away from awkward parts of the bible could be really big.  Probably bigger than Deepak Chopra if you play it right.

I'm glad you like it ;D

This is the kind of thinking I'm hoping will take root in the Christian subculture. I honestly think it's a better solution to the problems enumerated by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins than trying hopelessly to eliminate Christianity. And I'm starting in the heart of the bible belt.

Let me know if you ever want to donate!  8)
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Offline William

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #135 on: September 13, 2010, 02:47:33 AM »
Let me know if you ever want to donate!  8)

 ;D Are you putting an Investor Prospectus together - what sort of Return On Investment could I expect?
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #136 on: September 13, 2010, 04:32:56 AM »
Let me know if you ever want to donate!  8)

 ;D Are you putting an Investor Prospectus together - what sort of Return On Investment could I expect?

You will get no Financial ROI whats so ever!

But it's tax deductible, and every dollar helps to put me on campus with toxic Christians helping to change their way of looking at things and opening their minds. Basically it's hard to get everything down to dollars and cents, but if we project out 60 students this year. we're talking about $100 per month for each one of them transformed to a new kind of christian.

And the really exciting thing, is then I train each of them up to go and impact their churches and communities with that way of doing things. So next year we can expect even more growth.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #137 on: September 13, 2010, 06:35:36 AM »
UP, if you are going by the coherence theory of truth, then any statements of truth on your part are statements about yourself and about logic, rather than about any external facts.  Why should your coherent reality be considered important to anyone else, other than as a guide to what to expect from your own actions?
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Offline Gimpy

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #138 on: September 13, 2010, 07:00:52 AM »
UP:

You have a lot of work to do.

http://www.galileowaswrong.com/galileowaswrong/

On the other hand, I see this as something Woo-tah would feel quite comfortable at!
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Offline UniversityPastor

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #139 on: September 13, 2010, 07:59:35 AM »
UP, if you are going by the coherence theory of truth, then any statements of truth on your part are statements about yourself and about logic, rather than about any external facts.  Why should your coherent reality be considered important to anyone else, other than as a guide to what to expect from your own actions?

They're not

I don't expect you guys to come in and accept my theological viewpoint. It's mine, and if you like it, you can have it too, if not no biggie.


I think the confusion comes because I generally operate under the Correspondence theory of truth. So when I make a statement like "God exists" I mean to imply that God exists in reality, not just that the existence of god makes sense.

But when you start asking me how interpret _______, or what my explanation is for ________, It's mostly coherence.

What makes sense? That's what I'm going to guess is going on.

What's the reality? How would I know? I only know what makes sense.


I know it's not usual for people to use both of those. I kindof took a page out of Kant's book, and then took it a little further and applied to truth theories as well. But it really seems to fit (it makes sense and it seems to correspond to reality) Sometimes when I say something is true, I mean it works, It's a pragmatic idea. Sometimes I mean it fits, it goes coherently with everything else I know. And sometimes I mean it's really true true, that it and reality are identical. It all depends on what's being claimed.
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Offline William

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #140 on: September 13, 2010, 08:48:35 AM »
..we're talking about $100 per month for each one of them transformed to a new kind of christian.

That's not really much money considering the large reduction in self-embarrassment fundies could achieve by adopting your brand.  It might be interesting to make "before and after" video tapes of them and ask them to put a dollar value on their own transformation.  Do your converts (transformants) provide any regular cash flow back into your ministry or are you totally reliant on external sources of funds?

And have you done enough yet to get onto the radar of the pastors out there in the congregations where your converts are returning to?  Any feedback coming in yet?  :D   
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Offline velkyn

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #141 on: September 13, 2010, 10:55:59 AM »
Well listen, If you don't like God, you wouldn't like heaven much anyway.

so it's okay for people to be damned, tortured for all eternity, not even just annihilated, by the inaction of a god that supposedly *wants* a relationship with everyone.  and I love the other bit, the usual claim that the mean ol' atheists just don't *want* to find God.  What a sad strawman argument. Shall we also go with atheists dont' want a god since they all want to be ravening maniacs?  
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Offline Legend

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #142 on: September 13, 2010, 04:38:35 PM »
Well listen, If you don't like God, you wouldn't like heaven much anyway.

so it's okay for people to be damned, tortured for all eternity, not even just annihilated, by the inaction of a god that supposedly *wants* a relationship with everyone.  and I love the other bit, the usual claim that the mean ol' atheists just don't *want* to find God.  What a sad strawman argument. Shall we also go with atheists dont' want a god since they all want to be ravening maniacs?  

I always thought the 'I love you, but if you don't love me back I've got a surprise for you' position of God just wasn't----- benevolent or loving in any way.

Offline sammylama

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Re: ...then what good is your god?
« Reply #143 on: September 13, 2010, 06:09:28 PM »
I always thought the 'I love you, but if you don't love me back I've got a surprise for you' position of God just wasn't----- benevolent or loving in any way.

Yeah, no kidding.  Literally: I love you, but go to Hell...
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