Is it possible to study NDEs and remain an atheist ?

[Dominic]

I can 'see' right through walls.  I can 'see' from any vantage point around my body.  I can see my neighborhood from a thousand feet up.

I have the 'superpower' of visualization. 

Of course I know what I look like, what a gurney looks like, and what a hospital looks like, and I can 'see' what it looks like from all kinds of angles without actually physically going there.  I have 3D models of all of that in my head, as well as models for how they operate.  Heck, I even know what's above the ceiling tiles and inside the walls.  I'm just that 'psychic' (or knowledgeable about wiring, plumbing, modern architecture, etc.).

Just one glimpse at a room, and I know what everything looks like 'from above'.  Or below, or from that corner over there, or under the desk.

Building a 3D model of your surroundings is a constant and automatic function of your brain.  You describe unhitching the virtual camera of perception from the eyeballs and swirling it around the room like it's some sort of 'miracle'.  It's something most people do so routinely, they don't even look at it as a 'skill'.

You've never dreamed of flying over your neighborhood?  Did you ACTUALLY pop out of your body and fly, or did your brain 'project' the flight?

Do you have a theory as to why NDErs so regularly and consistently have that particular visualisation (looking down on the scene of their body) ?  Why that particular visualisation at that time ?   

The NDEr that Eddy posted about (Pam Reynolds) had all body functions terminated deliberately for a brain operation for one hour.  What visualisations would you expect in that situation ? (link below)

[koberulz]

Do you have a theory as to why NDErs so regularly and consistently have that particular visualisation (looking down on the scene of their body) ?  Why that particular visualisation at that time?

Do you have a theory as to why people so regularly and consistently sneeze when surrounded by dust? Why that particular reaction at that time?

[pingnak]

A theory?

Pure trauma can make you experience an 'out of body' experience.  When it hurts so bad, you believe 'that can't be me'.  Reported in instances of extreme torture, for instance.  "Who is that screaming...?  Oh, it's me."

Want an 'out of body' experience?  Risk free!  Stand in a dark, silent closet for hours on end (moderate sleep deprivation will speed this up), or go through other kinds of sensory deprivation.  You'll hallucinate vividly.  You'll catch yourself 'outside your body'.  For real.  Most people experience it while dreaming, or falling asleep, or waking up.

Why do so many 'NDE' people report this sensation?  Traumatic, linjury is a likely enough candidate to cause it, even if you're not in any danger of dying.  Even psychological 'injury' is enough to cause such dissociation.  Let alone being stuck in an 'altered state of consciousness' due to shock, fever, hypoxia, or suffering direct traumatic brain injury.

If it were 'unique' to NDEs, that would be 'something', but it's not.  It can be induced in many ways, including drugs, and directly stimulating brain tissue (i.e. during brain surgery).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out-of-body_experience

[Dominic]

To Pingnak and all,

I suspect that NDEs are just a subset of OBEs.  Furthermore the border between NDEs and general OBEs is grey.  I agree that a person does not need to be close to death to experience an OBE.  Closeness to death is just one possible trigger.

A lot more information is available about NDEs than general OBEs and the NDE stories often have a dramatic theme which makes them particularly compelling but I'm sure there are also plenty of interesting and significant general OBE stories around. 

Concentrating on the near death aspect is not at all essential to the discussion in this thread.  Much more significant to this discussion is the question of body vs spirit (soul, consciousness, mind), whether one of these two gives rise to the other, and most importantly of all, which one that is. 

[Eddy Swirl]

Concentrating on the near death aspect is not at all essential to the discussion in this thread.  Much more significant to this discussion is the question of body vs spirit (soul, consciousness, mind), whether one of these two gives rise to the other, and most importantly of all, which one that is. 

Souls are a tough one to discuss in a logical manner without the chance of seeming to be "soulless".

The concept of "soul" is somewhat intangible and there is no real evidence that souls exist. What is a soul? The general definition is: The spiritual part of a human being. I'm sure perceptions/interpretations vary as much as any given individuals personal perspective regarding religion.
I'd like to think that souls exist in some kind of manner, but how can you say for sure?

NDEs and OBEs are almost as intangible, they are an individuals personal experience. Are there any examples of mass NDEs or OBEs? Similar to mass hallucinations?

Speaking of the intangible, but to go off on a tangent, some believe that humans and elephants are the only animals on Earth that have souls, seems to be a bit unfair to me.

But if you are referring to music, then I'd have to say: I got soul baby! 

[pingnak]

Brain: Hardware (actually 'wetware', according to some)
'Soul': Software

What happens to the soul when the brain becomes inoperable?

What happens to software when you pull the plug and chuck the computer into a wood chipper?

It all goes into the mystical 'bit bucket', which is originally where the 'holes' went when software was encoded on punch cards and/or paper tape.

All the 1s are stored in the bit bucket, but not the zeroes, and the ones are in no particular order, and are in every way fungible.  So your 1s are the same as anyone else's 1s. 

So, yeah, if you believe that all the 1s notionally encoding 'you' (but not the zeroes) thrown randomly into a mess indistinguishable from everyone else's 1s is an 'afterlife', with no context to give them meaning, then that's your 'afterlife'.  In the holy bit bucket.

[ksm]

So have we answered the OP question: Is it possible to study NDEs and remain an atheist?

Is it possible to study fairies and and remain an afairiest?

[Eddy Swirl]

the holy bit bucket.

Also known as a family meal at KFC

Brain: Hardware (actually 'wetware', according to some)
'Soul': Software

What happens to the soul when the brain becomes inoperable?

What happens to software when you pull the plug and chuck the computer into a wood chipper?

A nice take on it, however it might be interpreted that somewhere down the line someone wrote the code for the software, and that there may be other copies out there. I guess we could all be doppelgangers.

[Dominic]

So have we answered the OP question: Is it possible to study NDEs and remain an atheist?

Is it possible to study fairies and and remain an afairiest?

Are you saying that NDEs don't exist ?

[pingnak]

Well, we've apparently gone from 'You can't look at an NDE and remain an atheist', to 'NDE's aren't so important, it's out-of-body experiences that are'.

[Gimpy]

Amazing story Gimpy.  A few similarities to the OP story.

Can I ask a few questions ?

How vivid and detailed were the recalled 'memories' ?

Extremely vivid. I could smell the merangue shells.

]Did time seem to slow down ?

I had no sense of time whatsoever. Remember that I am in full panic mode. I can only imagine what hormones and chemicals are racing through my system right at that moment. Flight-or-fight instincts on red alert.

Was there any assessment of your life events going on or just viewing ?

Just flashing by, like a mish mosh of images and sensations, no editorializing, no "assessing."

Did you recall anything that you had otherwise forgotten ?

Well, in the merangue image, I was around 3 years old, and the shells were on the counter cooling off, and I was hiding below the counter and when my mom turned around I reached my hand up to steal one off the counter. I had no working memory of that event until it "flashed." But I was able to tell my mother what she was wearing, what color the laminate flooring was and other details. She did remember the incident.

Was it life changing in any significant way (other than 'got to do something about that stupid car') ?

Absolutely none. I can't imagine why there would be. It was an organic experience, not a supernatural one.

I thought I was going to die in a matter of seconds, and was desperately trying to keep that from happening, though I felt trapped and helpless.

My "life" flashed before my eyes, seemingly all at once. That was about 25 years ago, so over time I have forgotten some of the vignettes that appeared, but I have not forgotten that so many did. Even the bad ones. There were flashes of several of my most tragic encounters. Again, it was not with any editorializing, it was just all there.

As soon as my car jerked forward, I realized how fast and hard my heart was pounding and how fast and deeply I was breathing and I was shaking uncontrollably for quite a while. And I believe I was crying as well.

If I recall, I had a headache not long after that. Again, likely due to the sudden influx of hormones and chemicals, and the sudden drop. Who knows?

[Gnu Ordure]

Dominic to Gimpy:

Was it life changing in any significant way (other than 'got to do something about that stupid car') ?

"Must remember not to start driving across a railway-track until the exit is clear" ? 

[Gnu Ordure]

Gimpy:

I thought I was going to die in a matter of seconds, and was desperately trying to keep that from happening, though I felt trapped and helpless.

So, in a complete crisis, a matter of life and death, literally, at a time when your mind should have been totally focused on survival... your mind decided to show you some meringues.  :shrug

How's that gonna help? What's the evolutionary advantage of your mind going, "Hello, Gimpy, this your mind speaking; I know you're a bit busy at the moment, on account of your imminent demise and everything, but do you remember that meringue you tried to steal when you were three? Well, do you? You're not listening to me, Gimpy; leave that car-window alone and pay attention, this is important".

Weird. Minds are weird.

[pingnak]

It kinda reminds me of the night I drove up on a flaming car.  The driver was a crispy critter.  I knew if I was that burnt up that bad, NO WAY I'd want to be 'rescued', but he was way dead and a little past 'well done'.  The car was fully involved. 

I dialed 911, and got... a message that the number was not in service.  I could use the cell phone to order a pizza, but couldn't call for help.  I just stared at the phone for a little bit while the car merrily crackled and popped, and threatened to start a brush fire (fortunately it had rained). 

Also fortunately someone else knew the sheriff's number and had called it in.

I learned a life-changing, valuable lesson that cellular towers weren't necessarily properly configured to call the local highway patrol dispatch, like they should.  (I now keep direct numbers to local emergency services on my phone.) 

That made me angry, but what made me angrier was that I just stood there like a F***ING idiot, not knowing what to do, or even formulating a plan for what to do.  At least I knew enough that burning cars were potentially dangerous and kept clear of the parts that could 'go boom'.  A few minutes later someone else showed up who worked for the fire department, and had me help check and see if there were bodies thrown clear of the wreck off the side of the road, and clear flammable stuff back from the car.  And a few minutes after that a fire truck showed up and they had me to move my truck, and put the car out, and covered up the crispy critter.

It turned out to be a suicide.  I got the shakes and had to go back to my friends' house and stay the night because it was lots closer than my home, and I was basically not 'good' to operate a vehicle.  I was fine after that.  None of the 'PTSD' stuff you hear about.  It was completely out of my mind for years until it popped up just now.

The core lesson, anyway, is sometimes in an emergency, especially if you haven't drilled for it, you can just draw a blank, and be useless.  Something to think about.

Probably not enough is taught about rendering aid and what to do when you encounter a wreck (or are involved in one) in 'drivers ed' classes.

[Gnu Ordure]

Pingnak, that might be explicable if we describe your reaction as a 'freeze' response. When you're in an entirely new situation which appears to be dangerous, it may be advantageous to do absolutely nothing.

Or not, if you're a rabbit newly experiencing bright lights getting larger very quickly.

[snkiesch]

snkiesch,

That article admits that the quoted 'tests' did not get anything near a satisfactory sample size or in some cases got no OBEs to test at all.

[/quote]
Yes, it does admit the tests were not large enough or satisfactory sample size. Nobody who claimed they looked down at their bodies ever knew what the message said.  A few years ago on  A&E or the discovery channel they told about an on going tests in various hospitals the same results. I could not find the tests when I googled. The point still stands that nobody who claimed they floated above their . in these hospiotal emergency rooms was able to tell what they could only have known if they were floating above their body. Until there is evidence that a person actually did leave their body, I will go with the evidence, it is the brain reacting to a stressful situation.

[superfly]

So you believe that it is possible for consciousness(?) to 'see' from a vantage point outside of the body ?

No, but that's because i don't think ones brain and body are separate entities.

i've had several experiences with brain chemistry altering substances wherein my "spirit" left my body and traveled. The experience seemed quite real while it was happening, but afterward i knew that i didn't go anywhere, except in my own head. man.

sf,

Do you think the experience gave you an accurate picture of your body and the scene around it ?

sorry, i missed this one.

It gave me an accurate picture of my body, and the places i'd been previously. As for places i've never been, i don't know, maybe. I suppose the image of those places were part stuff i'd seen in books/magazines/tv/movies and confabulation.

[Gimpy]

Gimpy:

I thought I was going to die in a matter of seconds, and was desperately trying to keep that from happening, though I felt trapped and helpless.

So, in a complete crisis, a matter of life and death, literally, at a time when your mind should have been totally focused on survival... your mind decided to show you some meringues.  :shrug

How's that gonna help? What's the evolutionary advantage of your mind going, "Hello, Gimpy, this your mind speaking; I know you're a bit busy at the moment, on account of your imminent demise and everything, but do you remember that meringue you tried to steal when you were three? Well, do you? You're not listening to me, Gimpy; leave that car-window alone and pay attention, this is important".

Weird. Minds are weird.

I have no idea how or why I had those flashes, all I know is that it happened and was so quick.

At the same time I'm slamming my shoulder against my door, and working both my feet on the clutch and brake trying to pop the clutch to see if the car would jerk forward, which it did in the last possible moment.

The only thing I actually said with clarity was, "I hope I remembered to pay my life insurance." My daughter was only 3 or 4 years old at the time.

Did I really see all that stuff? Dunno, it all seemed so real to me and it was pretty accurate, at least as far as my memories of my life go. Some of those things I hadn't thought about in years. Did I really smell the merangues? I think I did.

But like you said, the brain is weird. That "stuff" is all in there somewhere. I know for a fact I can't access much of my brain-storage right now (especially after all the chemo-therapy -- that really changes your brain function).

But I will never forget that event.

And I will also never cross tracks without clearance on the other side! But I do know that I didn't pray, and I didn't "thank god," nor did I even actively NOT do that. It just never entered my mind.

[velkyn]

Yes, it does admit the tests were not large enough or satisfactory sample size. Nobody who claimed they looked down at their bodies ever knew what the message said.  A few years ago on  A&E or the discovery channel they told about an on going tests in various hospitals the same results. I could not find the tests when I googled. The point still stands that nobody who claimed they floated above their . in these hospiotal emergency rooms was able to tell what they could only have known if they were floating above their body. Until there is evidence that a person actually did leave their body, I will go with the evidence, it is the brain reacting to a stressful situation.

I've found some things when I googled "out of body experience hospital studies"  and found a Dr. Sam Parnia being the head of the AWARE study where the cards of various words, etc, were put into areas where OBEs may be expected. 

[velkyn]

Are you saying that NDEs don't exist ?

not as a "mystical experience" as you seem to be wanting them to be.

Concentrating on the near death aspect is not at all essential to the discussion in this thread.  Much more significant to this discussion is the question of body vs spirit (soul, consciousness, mind), whether one of these two gives rise to the other, and most importantly of all, which one that is.  

and this strikes me as moving the goalposts, which is common with theists.

EDIT:

Do you have a theory as to why NDErs so regularly and consistently have that particular visualisation (looking down on the scene of their body) ?  Why that particular visualisation at that time ?   

I find this similar to the question why is it that people who claim to see UFOs/aliens have the same visualization?  Because they heard it about other people's claims.  Why was it that aliens looked like all sorts of things until the Barney and Betty Hill "abduction" when all aliens became the "grays"? 

[pingnak]

Pingnak, that might be explicable if we describe your reaction as a 'freeze' response. When you're in an entirely new situation which appears to be dangerous, it may be advantageous to do absolutely nothing.

Or not, if you're a rabbit newly experiencing bright lights getting larger very quickly.

Maybe, but it still makes me pissed off.  I couldn't do anything for the driver, but it didn't occur to me to check for passengers or rake the flammable stuff back away from the car.  I suppose 'experience' would've helped, and training more so, but to come up on a situation and be more or less useless is annoying, especially in retrospect.  Not much good 'CPR' training will do when someone's 'like that'.

[pingnak]

Of course, it's also somewhat illustrative.  I betcha not many people who pulverize their brains crashing into trees at 100 miles an hour without a seatbelt on and then get roasted experience 'NDE'.  Just WHAM!, and that's it.

Ultimately, nobody who's actually dead has come back to tell us. 

Some religious types might wave their finger and point at their favorite zombie onna stick, but that guy didn't report on a 'near death experience'.  Probably just extended delirium as he was 'near death' for half a day, or until that soldier allegedly poked him with the spear to get all those whining mourners out of there.

[Science4all!]

After reading those reports I must say, it's indeed impressive.
Therefore I would say, there are two aspects:
1. The subjective sensation that can certainly have massive effects on people and I would say it's important not to belittle the impact or the persons reporting those things.

2. The level of the scientific explanation.
Roughly ten years ago I remember a researcher (who works in the field of brain research, I don't remember his correct title) spoke in the church I attended that time about these NDEs and even he as christian was very skeptical about the presence of any supernatural being.

[Dominic]

Are you saying that NDEs don't exist ?

not as a "mystical experience" as you seem to be wanting them to be.

Concentrating on the near death aspect is not at all essential to the discussion in this thread.  Much more significant to this discussion is the question of body vs spirit (soul, consciousness, mind), whether one of these two gives rise to the other, and most importantly of all, which one that is.  

and this strikes me as moving the goalposts, which is common with theists.

EDIT:

Do you have a theory as to why NDErs so regularly and consistently have that particular visualisation (looking down on the scene of their body) ?  Why that particular visualisation at that time ?   

I find this similar to the question why is it that people who claim to see UFOs/aliens have the same visualization?  Because they heard it about other people's claims.  Why was it that aliens looked like all sorts of things until the Barney and Betty Hill "abduction" when all aliens became the "grays"? 

So Velkyn, are you saying that NDErs are simply liars ?

[Dominic]

Yes, it does admit the tests were not large enough or satisfactory sample size. Nobody who claimed they looked down at their bodies ever knew what the message said.  A few years ago on  A&E or the discovery channel they told about an on going tests in various hospitals the same results. I could not find the tests when I googled. The point still stands that nobody who claimed they floated above their . in these hospiotal emergency rooms was able to tell what they could only have known if they were floating above their body. Until there is evidence that a person actually did leave their body, I will go with the evidence, it is the brain reacting to a stressful situation.

I've found some things when I googled "out of body experience hospital studies"  and found a Dr. Sam Parnia being the head of the AWARE study where the cards of various words, etc, were put into areas where OBEs may be expected. 

Here is one study where the researcher claims that the OBE subject was successful -

http://www.near-death.com/tart.html

[velkyn]

So Velkyn, are you saying that NDErs are simply liars ?

Some, perhaps.  Others, very suggestable.  Considering this, and that it has been shown that the same sensations can be produced in other ways, there is no evidence that NDEs and OBEs are in any way mystical or to be from any gods at all. So I am still quite certain of my answer to the OP question, that it is quite possible to remain an atheist in light of the dearth of evidence of either NDEs or OBEs. 

And, Dom, if you don't understand your latest claim of an OBE is just laughable, then there isn't much anyone can do for you.  I mean, really, the American Society for Psychical Research? Do they do any peer review, actual studies according to the scientific method?  One person supposedly watching one other person (snoozing while the experiment ran?!) and claiming that they did "x" means very little.  If he could replicate it, I might find this more interesting. But as it stands, it seems to be nothing more than an anecdote.

[Agamemnon]

...If he could replicate it, I might find this more interesting. But as it stands, it seems to be nothing more than an anecdote.

Apparently NO ONE can replicate it.

[Omen]

Why doesn't Dominic understand how unscientific his sources and claims actually are?

[velkyn]

^^^^^^ I think he does but he has nothing else to support his claims.  To me, it's throwing poop at a wall and hoping some of it sticks.