Is it possible to study NDEs and remain an atheist ?

[superfly]

Ok, thanks.
Watching from the ceiling ?
I wonder how atheists generally come to terms with that phenomenon.

blood loss, shock, getting hit in the head really hard.

[Emergence]

Viel glück, Emergence.

Danke schön, Herr Botschafter. 

[Dominic]

Ok, thanks.
Watching from the ceiling ?
I wonder how atheists generally come to terms with that phenomenon.

blood loss, shock, getting hit in the head really hard.

So, you are saying that you just imagined it ?

[Dominic]

[quote author=blue_spiral link=topic=15565.msg350585#msg350585 date=1283812731
My highly unorthodox advice to anyone who can't seem to grasp the power of chemicals in the brain is to try some mind-altering drugs. See how much mere milligrams and even micrograms of a substance can vastly alter the way reality is percieved.

I have a nephew who is schizophrenic.

His "reality" is a struggle to manage day to day because of his brain's chemical imbalances.

The "voices" he hears are REAL (to him).

The "lights" he sees, as well as other things that he "sees" are REAL (to him).

The "odors" he smells, they are real, too.

Even though none of any of that actually exists anywhere outside of his noggin.

He takes medications to keep the hallucinations in check. The chemicals he takes helps to counteract the natural chemicals that are fucking with his brain.

So, no NDEs do NOTHING for me in terms of presenting any legitimate "case" for theism.

We know that NDEs are chemical reactions in the brains of the people who experience them due to various things affecting the brain (a vast variety of things during a near - death or actual death, sudden revival scenario).

As stated above, I don't see how anyone can study the brain and still remain a theist. But I agree with you as to why many can and do. Core beliefs are hard to shake loose.

So you are suggesting that NDEs are simply temporary schizophrenic episodes ?


Has he ever had his entire life reviewed so that he re-experienced every event instantaneously but yet so clearly that he noticed many things surrounding each life event that he had missed at the time, including feeling what others around him had felt at the time ???


That is what many NDErs report.  The 'life review' is one of the most commonly reported aspects of NDEs.


It's possible that some schizophrenics have experienced this, but I have never heard it reported.

[Dominic]

They have done experiments in emergency rooms, visual stimuli were placed where they could only be seen if the person was floating above their body. The results have all been negative.  I think it shows that OBE's are the brain dealing with stress.


http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/keith_augustine/HNDEs.html#experiments

snkiesch,

That article admits that the quoted 'tests' did not get anything near a satisfactory sample size or in some cases got no OBEs to test at all.

[koberulz]

Ok, thanks.
Watching from the ceiling ?
I wonder how atheists generally come to terms with that phenomenon.

blood loss, shock, getting hit in the head really hard.

So, you are saying that you just imagined it ?

Yes.

So you are suggesting that NDEs are simply temporary schizophrenic episodes ?

No.

[Asmoday]

So you are suggesting that NDEs are simply temporary schizophrenic episodes ?


Has he ever had his entire life reviewed so that he re-experienced every event instantaneously but yet so clearly that he noticed many things surrounding each life event that he had missed at the time, including feeling what others around him had felt at the time ???


That is what many NDErs report.  The 'life review' is one of the most commonly reported aspects of NDEs.


It's possible that some schizophrenics have experienced this, but I have never heard it reported.

That is actually no evidence that anything about NDEs is in any way supernatural.

What we perceive as reality is actually a highly filtered version of all the sensory input coming from the rest of the nervous system of our body. What we see, smell, taste and feel is not the reality. When we experience the world around us, we actually experience a version of the world that has already undergone rather heavy filtering by our brain.
It is impossible for the brain to process all the information coming in and maintain "us" (as in "what is generally perceived as a normal human personality").
Most of the information coming in is not brought to "our" attention. We don't even have access to it in our normal state of mind. But that does not mean that it goes unused or isn't stored.

In an altered state of mind (and when you have an NDE that definitely qualifies as extremely altered state of mind) a lot (if not all) of the filters that are usually in place are turned off.

[Dominic]

NDErs speak and/or write about their experiences using words and concepts from their own culture.  That is exactly what we would expect them to do.

bs.  Christians and other theists insist that they have the one and only true god and afterlife. If there were some "truth" then everyone should have the same experience.

That the after life must be experienced in the same way for everyone is simply part of a 'made-up-by-Velkyn' religion. 

NDErs regularly report a decision of whether or not to return to their bodies and then a choice to do so - usually after gaining immensely valuable experiences and information.

I have not heard of any mistakes being reported

  I love this too.  why does your god allow some people a "choice" and not all?  Again, this simply reeks of the usual special snowflake nonsense that theists want to claim, that their god does special things for them and only them. 

Many report a choice.  That does not mean that the others do not have/make a choice.  We only get partial descriptions of these experiences.  From how they are often described, the full experience if it could be written, would not fit in a large book.

[superfly]

Ok, thanks.
Watching from the ceiling ?
I wonder how atheists generally come to terms with that phenomenon.

blood loss, shock, getting hit in the head really hard.

So, you are saying that you just imagined it ?

Yes.

koberulz-i can answer questions for myself, thanks.

Dominic-No, i don't think i imagined it. i think that the combination of the 3 things i mentioned cause an alteration in my brain chemistry which caused the experience.

[Dominic]

Ok, thanks.
Watching from the ceiling ?
I wonder how atheists generally come to terms with that phenomenon.

blood loss, shock, getting hit in the head really hard.

So, you are saying that you just imagined it ?

Yes.

koberulz-i can answer questions for myself, thanks.

Dominic-No, i don't think i imagined it. i think that the combination of the 3 things i mentioned cause an alteration in my brain chemistry which caused the experience.

So you believe that it is possible for consciousness(?) to 'see' from a vantage point outside of the body ?

[Gimpy]

So you believe that it is possible for consciousness(?) to 'see' from a vantage point outside of the body ?

Yes. Because it's not really "seeing," the brain is simply interpreting an activity or hallucination and bundling it as "seeing" in it's "this is real" monitor.

Have you ever talked to people who have had "out of body" experiences after doing drugs?

Have you ever talked to schizophrenics talk about their "real" experiences?

Neither can be convinced that they are just "imagining" it.

Nor can amputees who can "feel" pain or other sensations in their missing limbs be convinced that the sensations are all "imaginary" -- because when the brain is processing all those things, it is processing them as "real."

[Positiveaob]

Do you have any substantiated examples of people "see"-ing anything they couldn't see from not being outside of their body?  Again, the brain does some funny things when it is deprived of oxygen.  It is entirely possible that it interprets its visual stimuli in different ways.  That is, it sort of re-arranges what it sees in a different format.  If it were seeing things it could not possibly see except from outside the body, you might be able to make some sort of case.  Of course, this would have to be substantiated and not just some random story of "I once heard of a guy who had an NDE and saw a nurse doing something in the next room".

Pretty much otherwise you just have an interesting biological phenomenon.  You haven't shown anything in your points to suggest a supernatural cause. 

And again, it certainly would be odd, if there were a "god" involved, that every time a NDE occurs that the "god" or "gods" that appear are the ones that that the person was brought up to believe.  You would sort of think the real one would be stepping forward and saying "Hey it's me".  Don't you think?

[Dominic]

Nor can amputees who can "feel" pain or other sensations in their missing limbs be convinced that the sensations are all "imaginary" -- because when the brain is processing all those things, it is processing them as "real."

Potentially then we could have amputees imagining they'd been healed who cannot be convinced otherwise.

Something like we might expect them to report having experienced during an NDE.

[Gimpy]

Potentially then we could have amputees imagining they'd been healed who cannot be convinced otherwise.

Something like we might expect them to report having experienced during an NDE.

Neither of those sentences makes any sense, and you have completely ignored my questions.

Please respond to my questions.

By the way, certain drugs can "convince" an amputee's brain that their missing limb no longer exists and they can't really "feel" it or the pain or other sensations.

You seem to be confusing the fact that amputees experience pain or other sensations in phantom or missing limbs with them actually believing the limbs are still there. They do not. As such they cannot really feel anything in those missing limbs. However, their brains can continue to "believe" that the limbs are still there when they are not. It's all in the neurological signals. The brain screws them up. And no amount of the amputee looking at the place where the limb used to be and saying outloud, "see? It doesn't exist! The pain isn't REAL." will convince the screwed up neural networks that they aren't screwing up -- but sometimes some drugs can help do that.

But, please, answer my questions.

[velkyn]

That the after life must be experienced in the same way for everyone is simply part of a 'made-up-by-Velkyn' religion. 

Many report a choice.  That does not mean that the others do not have/make a choice.  We only get partial descriptions of these experiences.  From how they are often described, the full experience if it could be written, would not fit in a large book.

I love this.  We have baseless claims by Dom that supposedly people get a choice, get magical revelations as convenient, get only "partial" descriptions as convenient, and now that the afterlife doesn't have to be experienced in the same way, when his own religion says that they and only they have the "right" answer on how the afterlife is.  How convenient that suddenly, we can ignore religious claims when they are inconvenient.  

And the OP question was "is it possible to study NDES and remain an atheist"  I think the answer is a resounding yes considering the "studying" is only trying to make a biological phenomenon fit into a preconceived notion and then making excuses when its shown how badly it doesn't fit.  

[Ambassador Pony]

As could be easily demonstrated by reading the literature in the related scientific fields (i.e. responding to Emergence).

hmmm, the one thing Dominic hasn't done. Funny that. It's almost as if he doesn't have an education and doesn't know what actual research is.

[superfly]

So you believe that it is possible for consciousness(?) to 'see' from a vantage point outside of the body ?

No, but that's because i don't think ones brain and body are separate entities.

i've had several experiences with brain chemistry altering substances wherein my "spirit" left my body and traveled. The experience seemed quite real while it was happening, but afterward i knew that i didn't go anywhere, except in my own head. man.

[Cyberia]

I've had an OBE.  True story.

I was talking with my girlfriend and apparently something I was saying was really bothering her, and I was utterly oblivious to this.  At some point, I said it again, and she snapped.  In an instant, She SCREAMED at me with such fury I have rarely witnessed, and never at myself.  It was completely out of character for her.  It was like a bomb went off.

For an instant, I was 'blasted' to the other side of the room by her ire.  I was literally smashed up against the door and I could see myself standing right next to her.  I was completely out-of-body.  And yes, It was just a sensation.  I was also perfectly aware of being 'me' in the normal sense, of being inside my real body, and capable of moving if I chose to, though I didn't dare.  An instant later, I snapped back like a rubber band and was returned to my mortal form, albeit with an irate girlfriend to deal with.

That is how our brains react to shocking or traumatic events.  We 'imagine' ourselves out of it, because it's too difficult to cope with if that event was happening to US.  It's EXACTLY the same thing as the "it wasn't me!" excuse people give (instantaneously) when questioned about something with serious implications.

For NDE's, some part of these people recognized death is imminent, and they simply can't cope with it.  So....."it wasn't me!"  They imagine themselves outside their body, watching this horrible thing happen to someone else.




...and yes, hell hath NO fury like a woman scorned.  Lucifer would have blushed.

[Tealeaf]

Has he ever had his entire life reviewed so that he re-experienced every event instantaneously but yet so clearly that he noticed many things surrounding each life event that he had missed at the time, including feeling what others around him had felt at the time ???


That is what many NDErs report.  The 'life review' is one of the most commonly reported aspects of NDEs.

Do you know what euphoria or ego-death is? Do you know anything?

Seriously, have you ever tried MDMA or LSD or any variety of hallucenogenic mushrooms?

The brain can do some powerful stuff within itself. What happens during an NDE is not only not unique, it's also not even that 'special' or hard to replicate.

[Gimpy]

Has he ever had his entire life reviewed so that he re-experienced every event instantaneously but yet so clearly that he noticed many things surrounding each life event that he had missed at the time, including feeling what others around him had felt at the time ???


That is what many NDErs report.  The 'life review' is one of the most commonly reported aspects of NDEs.

I dunno about that.

One time, in my early 20s, I was driving a Le Car (no comments, my Starter Husband^TM purchased it).

None of the doors worked from the inside anymore. If you wanted to get out you had to manually roll down the windows, reach through and open from the outside.

Oh, it was a manual transmission.

One morning on my way to work, I had an NDE where I had my ENTIRE life flash before me, in complete clarity and detail, though it lasted only seconds.

It was mid-fall, so the morning was chilly. Which meant my car was not properly warmed-up as I approached a railroad crossing. The crossing had an incline UP to the tracks, and an incline on the other side down from the tracks.

Just as my car's tires came in contact with the train tracks, the woman in front of me suddenly put on her brakes.

For. No. Fucking. Reason. Whatsoever.

I tried to brake quickly and in doing so my car died. Stalled right there on the tracks.

I tried to start it, but it was too cold and wouldn't turn over.

At JUST that moment, the RR crossing bars come down and lights and warning signals go off.

My car is now trapped inside the barriers, on the tracks.

I looked to my left and could see the train's lights. It was approaching fairly rapidly.

I paniked and tried to open the door to get out.

FAWK! The windows won't roll down!

I grab at the keys and keep trying to start it.

NOTHING.

I look up again and in that instant, my entire life flashed before me as I was staring at the train's headlight getting closer and closer. I saw myself at age 3 eating merangue shells that my mom had just pulled out of the oven -- I saw myself stuck in a tree on the back of my farm -- I saw myself getting married, and everything in between. My NDE ended with me saying out loud to myself, "I hope my life insurance is paid up."

About that same time, the guy behind me is yelling at me to get out of the car.

He gets out of his and starts running towards me.

In my panic, I try desperately to pop the clutch if for no reason than to have the car jerk forward and give me a chance.

It worked. The car jerked forward and rolled down the incline at the very second the train passed behind me. It was so close, my car was shaking like it was caught in a tornado.


It was all quite clear and quite memorable. The mind is an amazing thing. I didn't even have to be unconscious for my NDE.

[pingnak]

I can 'see' right through walls.  I can 'see' from any vantage point around my body.  I can see my neighborhood from a thousand feet up.

I have the 'superpower' of visualization. 

Of course I know what I look like, what a gurney looks like, and what a hospital looks like, and I can 'see' what it looks like from all kinds of angles without actually physically going there.  I have 3D models of all of that in my head, as well as models for how they operate.  Heck, I even know what's above the ceiling tiles and inside the walls.  I'm just that 'psychic' (or knowledgeable about wiring, plumbing, modern architecture, etc.).

Just one glimpse at a room, and I know what everything looks like 'from above'.  Or below, or from that corner over there, or under the desk.

Building a 3D model of your surroundings is a constant and automatic function of your brain.  You describe unhitching the virtual camera of perception from the eyeballs and swirling it around the room like it's some sort of 'miracle'.  It's something most people do so routinely, they don't even look at it as a 'skill'.

You've never dreamed of flying over your neighborhood?  Did you ACTUALLY pop out of your body and fly, or did your brain 'project' the flight?

[Eddy Swirl]

I read most of the thread, but admittedly skimmed through some of it, so I may have missed it if the following has already been mentioned. There is a hallucinogenic drug which occurs naturally in the human body in small amounts, it's called Dimethyltryptamine. However when the body is about to die, or is near death, it's thought that the pineal gland releases huge amounts of this hallucinogen, which creates the NDE.

This drug can also be found in certain plants, and is sort after by various people around the world for those particular properties.

You can read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethyltryptamine

A fair way down the page you will find the following:

Dr. Rick Strassman, while conducting DMT research in the 1990s at the University of New Mexico, advanced the theory that a massive release of DMT from the pineal gland prior to death or near death was the cause of the near death experience (NDE) phenomenon. Several of his test subjects reported NDE-like audio or visual hallucinations. His explanation for this was the possible lack of panic involved in the clinical setting and possible dosage differences between those administered and those encountered in actual NDE cases. Several subjects also reported contact with 'other beings', alien like, insectoid or reptilian in nature, in highly advanced technological environments[29] where the subjects were 'carried', 'probed', 'tested', 'manipulated', 'dismembered', 'taught', 'loved' and even 'raped' by these 'beings' (one could note the strong similarities of these bodily tests/invasions in other psychedelic experiences throughout time, outlined in Graham Hancock's "Supernatural"[42]). Strassman has speculated that DMT is made in the pineal gland, largely because the necessary constituents (see methyltransferases) needed to make DMT are found in the pineal gland in substantially greater concentrations than any other part of the body. However, there is no scientific proof of this.

People will no doubt pounce on the last sentence in the above quote, but please remember we are talking about neuroscience, a field where there is still so much to learn about.

[Kodanshi]

Well, at least it’s something, and something that scientists in the field can explore and test. Definitely a lot better than the tired old ‘Goddidit!’ routine.

[velkyn]

It was all quite clear and quite memorable. The mind is an amazing thing. I didn't even have to be unconscious for my NDE.

holy cats, Gimpy. I broke into a sweat just reading about this.  Just to let you know, MockTurtle used to have a LeCar when we were in college together.  Yep, those lovely three lugnuts on each wheel 

what ping brought up about visualization is pertinent I think.  I have such a strong mind's eye that sometimes it's hard to remember what was "real" and what I have visualized as possiblities.

and Eddie

People will no doubt pounce on the last sentence in the above quote, but please remember we are talking about neuroscience, a field where there is still so much to learn about.

You seem offended that anyone wants actual evidence. 

[Gimpy]

holy cats, Gimpy. I broke into a sweat just reading about this.  Just to let you know, MockTurtle used to have a LeCar when we were in college together.  Yep, those lovely three lugnuts on each wheel 

Yeah. After that incident, I took a small piece of black electrical tape and extended the lower case "r" in Le Car to make it form a lower case "n". Le Can.

[Eddy Swirl]

People will no doubt pounce on the last sentence in the above quote, but please remember we are talking about neuroscience, a field where there is still so much to learn about.

You seem offended that anyone wants actual evidence. 

No, not at all, I think evidence is vital.
I could have sneakily left that last sentence out, but I wanted to keep it in so that the post was transparent.
I'd heard in the past that it was thought NDEs were caused by DMT, so I wanted to bring it to peoples attention.
I left the last sentence in the quote to show that, although an interesting theory, it isn't concrete fact.

That research is from the '90s, so who knows what the general consensus is these days, I'll have a little hunt and post up what I find.

[Eddy Swirl]

Hmmm, well there is certainly a lot of crap to sift through, the majority of it lacking any credibility. David Icke (should read Davi Dick'e) for instance has jumped on it for his own dogma (probably got his info from Flatliners, that lame '80s movie).
I found this however:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fC48vZ3ssOU[/youtube]
So maybe it's a load of bollocks, or only applicable to certain cases.... Anyway still hunting...

[Dominic]

Has he ever had his entire life reviewed so that he re-experienced every event instantaneously but yet so clearly that he noticed many things surrounding each life event that he had missed at the time, including feeling what others around him had felt at the time ???


That is what many NDErs report.  The 'life review' is one of the most commonly reported aspects of NDEs.

I dunno about that.

One time, in my early 20s, I was driving a Le Car (no comments, my Starter Husband^TM purchased it).

None of the doors worked from the inside anymore. If you wanted to get out you had to manually roll down the windows, reach through and open from the outside.

Oh, it was a manual transmission.

One morning on my way to work, I had an NDE where I had my ENTIRE life flash before me, in complete clarity and detail, though it lasted only seconds.

It was mid-fall, so the morning was chilly. Which meant my car was not properly warmed-up as I approached a railroad crossing. The crossing had an incline UP to the tracks, and an incline on the other side down from the tracks.

Just as my car's tires came in contact with the train tracks, the woman in front of me suddenly put on her brakes.

For. No. Fucking. Reason. Whatsoever.

I tried to brake quickly and in doing so my car died. Stalled right there on the tracks.

I tried to start it, but it was too cold and wouldn't turn over.

At JUST that moment, the RR crossing bars come down and lights and warning signals go off.

My car is now trapped inside the barriers, on the tracks.

I looked to my left and could see the train's lights. It was approaching fairly rapidly.

I paniked and tried to open the door to get out.

FAWK! The windows won't roll down!

I grab at the keys and keep trying to start it.

NOTHING.

I look up again and in that instant, my entire life flashed before me as I was staring at the train's headlight getting closer and closer. I saw myself at age 3 eating merangue shells that my mom had just pulled out of the oven -- I saw myself stuck in a tree on the back of my farm -- I saw myself getting married, and everything in between. My NDE ended with me saying out loud to myself, "I hope my life insurance is paid up."

About that same time, the guy behind me is yelling at me to get out of the car.

He gets out of his and starts running towards me.

In my panic, I try desperately to pop the clutch if for no reason than to have the car jerk forward and give me a chance.

It worked. The car jerked forward and rolled down the incline at the very second the train passed behind me. It was so close, my car was shaking like it was caught in a tornado.


It was all quite clear and quite memorable. The mind is an amazing thing. I didn't even have to be unconscious for my NDE.

Amazing story Gimpy.  A few similarities to the OP story.

Can I ask a few questions ?

How vivid and detailed were the recalled 'memories' ?

Did time seem to slow down ?

Was there any assessment of your life events going on or just viewing ?

Did you recall anything that you had otherwise forgotten ?

Was it life changing in any significant way (other than 'got to do something about that stupid car') ?

PM if you prefer. 

[Dominic]

So you believe that it is possible for consciousness(?) to 'see' from a vantage point outside of the body ?

No, but that's because i don't think ones brain and body are separate entities.

i've had several experiences with brain chemistry altering substances wherein my "spirit" left my body and traveled. The experience seemed quite real while it was happening, but afterward i knew that i didn't go anywhere, except in my own head. man.

sf,

Do you think the experience gave you an accurate picture of your body and the scene around it ?