Is it possible to study NDEs and remain an atheist ?

[Operator_018]

Ya, I often discount how many lurkers are about that are honestly interested in reality.

[Jim]

Ya, I often discount how many lurkers are about that are honestly interested in reality.

How much do you discount them?  20%?  50%?  Do you double the offer if they call RIGHT NOW?  Do you throw in extra Shammy-poo or Ginsu knivess with their order of reality just for paying by credit card?

[Omen]

Dominic has reached such a level that his actions are predictable, it is contemptible.

[velkyn]

bookmark

[Kodanshi]

How much do you discount them?  20%?  50%?  Do you double the offer if they call RIGHT NOW?  Do you throw in extra Shammy-poo or Ginsu knivess with their order of reality just for paying by credit card?

Hah! Low Price Gwaranty!

[Operator_A25]

I wonder if the OP plans to return to discuss this further?

[Omen]

I wonder if the OP plans to return to discuss this further?

Like he hasn't done this before?

[blue]

I wonder if the OP plans to return to discuss this further?

He was on 5 hours ago. I think JeffPT & others answered him solidly though, so I don't know what else he'd have to say.

[Omen]

I wonder if the OP plans to return to discuss this further?

He was on 5 hours ago. I think JeffPT & others answered him solidly though, so I don't know what else he'd have to say.

Ignore substantial explanatory posts and concentrate on vague quotations by making pointless red herrings.

[blue]

Ignore substantial explanatory posts and concentrate on vague quotations by making pointless red herrings.

Oh joy. Another one of those. Maybe think of it as grinding levels in a game by learning to identify and stop all diversionary and dishonest tactics?

[Operator_A25]

Like he hasn't done this before?

It was a kind of cue... You know... To inspire the OP to make this a discussion as opposed to expressing his opinions and disappearing.

I think that the OP has a responsibility to return to this thread with something of substance. Otherwise I'll be inclined to think he is trolling the forum.

[id]

JeffPT:  good post, but lifting cars off of children?  Isn't super strength a myth?  Sure adrenaline can make us a little stronger, but no old woman is going to lift a car.

[Kodanshi]

He was on 5 hours ago. I think JeffPT & others answered him solidly though, so I don't know what else he'd have to say.

Receiving a few thorough answers and then dropping out of the debate without thinking about it smacks of intellectual dishonesty to me…

[JeffPT]

JeffPT:  good post, but lifting cars off of children?  Isn't super strength a myth?  Sure adrenaline can make us a little stronger, but no old woman is going to lift a car.

Do a search and look for a series called "The Human Body, Pushing the Limits".  It was put on by the discovery channel.  It's pretty amazing.  The strength one is part 2.  Super strength has to do with the fact that when we voluntarily contract our muscles, even if we try as hard as we can, we don't use all the muscle fibers at the same time.  When we are in life or death situations, however, we fire ALL the muscle fibers. 

You would be amazed at what the body can do when "pushed to the limits".  The body is more amazing than we can possibly know. 

[jetson]

You would be amazed at what the body can do when "pushed to the limits".  The body is more amazing than we can possibly know. 

I've been told this is due to our intelligent design.

[thunderridge]

Great post JeffPT.  It never occured to me that NDE's would be different based on the near death persons religion and it should have been so obvious.

[RaymondKHessel]

Can you experience medicine and still believe in god?

I laughed. Loudly. 

[Tealeaf]

I love how the "NDE's" always contain notions of the surpernatural that the experiencer had to learn BEFORE they died. Never anything new that couldn't have happened anyway....

Things like "G" gods and "H" hims.

[Dominic]

Please explain to me what is supernatural about this?

I'm not attached to the term 'supernatural'.  One of the commonly expressed experiences of NDErs is how absolutely natural the whole experience is.  In fact this world/life seems unnatural in comparison.

  Someone goes into a state of emotional shock when confronted by a close call in which she obviously blacked out unconscious and went into dream and imagined being visited by the god figure she had been brought up to believe.  Did she become privvy to any information she couldn't have found out elsewhere or something? Why is this anything more than her imagination?  You've been on this site for a while and you're still posting things like this.  Why do you think this would constituen compelling evidence?

NDErs commonly experience -

- A complete and detailed life review which includes re-experiencing every life event plus also experiencing the impact of each personal action on other people.

- Instant communication.  Total clarity of thought.  Vividness of colours, sights and sounds not known in their physical lives.

- Complete answers to any and every question as soon as it is thought of.  Detailed knowled about their own life and the nature of the universe

- A sense of peace, well-being, painlessness and unconditional love.

- Ability to view all directions simultaneously

- External view of the body and the activity and scene around it

- A choice of whether to stay or return and then a decision to return to the body


If that to you is just another dream then it could just as well be argued that this life is in fact the dream and that the NDE is when you (at least temporarily) wake up.

[Dominic]

Chemical reactions going on in the brain when the body sees itself dying.

Easy to type.  Easy to say.  But simply just another commonly bleated atheist dogma.  This is the opposite equivalent of the theist simply saying "God did it" ie "Chemicals did it".  It explains nothing and answers nothing.

Nothing personal Nick.  Just taking issue with the use of casual dismissal.

[Dominic]

Why don't you think Yr, and its gods, don't exist? Deborah Blau had endless conversations with its gods and it is well documented (I never promised you a rose garden by Joanne Greenberg) and there's no doubt the story is honest.

I haven't read any of her stuff but she is just one person.  NDErs are thousands with a common thread in their stories.

[pingnak]

I love how the "NDE's" always contain notions of the surpernatural that the experiencer had to learn BEFORE they died. Never anything new that couldn't have happened anyway....

Things like "G" gods and "H" hims.

Nah, just the NDEs that make it onto the videos and news stories quoted by the religiously afflicted.

Why should they pay attention to an NDE with a dream-like narrative, when they can focus on the fire+brimstone and/or light-tunnel-to-heaven ones that their customers like best.

[Dominic]

If she was clinically dead for a week and came back and told this 'story', maybe then we could talk.

Until such time she and others like her are either lying or mentally traumatized from being on the edge of death.

Either way, personal testimony or NDE experience is not proof.

Let's just deal with 'lying' for a minute.

If NDErs are lying then so to must be the astronauts undergoing extreme training who report similar(?) experiences.

[Dominic]

It's all cultural.  If all NDE's were the same, regardless of culture and beliefs, then you might have more evidence on your side.  But a few Christian woo experiences doesn't lead to the belief in the Christian God, any more than 11 Thai experiences makes me believe in Yamatoots.   

NDErs speak and/or write about their experiences using words and concepts from their own culture.  That is exactly what we would expect them to do.

[Dominic]

Man what's wrong with just dealing with the fact when you die it is the end of your consciousness? :shrug :shrug :shrug It ain't that scary really. What's scary is either an eternity of paradise (so boring) and punishment (which your get use to eventually and is also very boring). Thankfully that's bullshit. 

Your suggestion is to simply deny the whole topic.  Fine.  Your choice.

[Dominic]

Can you experience medicine and still believe in god? Medicine uses naturalistic principles that point towards no gods and has been shown to cure people.

Medicine is evidence against God ?  I can't take that seriously.

[koberulz]

If NDErs are lying then so to must be the astronauts undergoing extreme training who report similar(?) experiences.

Given the fact that said astronauts have zero chance of dying, it would certainly indicate it's not what you say it is.

[Dominic]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvxFXkv7L24[/youtube]

Penn and Teller.  Toilet science.  Present 30 seconds of someone's opinion, shout, bully and swear and then claim 'case closed'.

I call 'bullsh*t!'

[RaymondKHessel]

Did you WATCH the video? It's not an opinion. You see the guy blackout. He comes to. He says "I SAW A LIGHT!"

It happens to the overwhelming majority of people.

Hey. Hey guy. Hey.

<whispers>

Your bias is showing.