Andrew - post here

[Ambassador Pony]

This is your emergency room thread. You can post here and only here. This is where some of the adults at the forum would like to try to help you with handling yourself in the forum, and get your account status back in the green.

If you demonstrate an improvement here, then you may return to regular posting.

[One Above All]

Andrew, I'm not an adult (I'm still technically a teenager), but I'm going to give my opinion anyway:
Personally, I found your threats of hell entertaining, but I don't think other users agree with me. Maybe you could tone it down a little.

[jaimehlers]

Andrew, the thing you need to understand is that we aren't willing to accept assertions of something without evidence.  So giving us stories about how your god helped you win an iPad game, your god sent someone to help you with your flat tire, and other things along those lines aren't going to be convincing.  At all.  Since those things are easily explainable by coincidence or by other, purely natural causes, there's no reason to attribute them to your god.

Five, five hundred, or five billion anecdotes like them, it doesn't matter, they're not going to be convincing by themselves.  Do you understand?

[Anfauglir]

Bookmarked.

[Nam]

Bookmarked.

-Nam

[Andrew]

Andrew, the thing you need to understand is that we aren't willing to accept assertions of something without evidence.  So giving us stories about how your god helped you win an iPad game, your god sent someone to help you with your flat tire, and other things along those lines aren't going to be convincing.  At all.  Since those things are easily explainable by coincidence or by other, purely natural causes, there's no reason to attribute them to your god.

Five, five hundred, or five billion anecdotes like them, it doesn't matter, they're not going to be convincing by themselves.  Do you understand?

so a deaf person regaining their hearing after prayer and my friend hearing from God 'order whatever you wan't' are just coincidences? More likely there is a God in the universe.

[jaimehlers]

so a deaf person regaining their hearing after prayer and my friend hearing from God 'order whatever you wan't' are just coincidences? More likely there is a God in the universe.

Regarding the former (regained hearing), all we have is your own personal belief that this woman regained her hearing after you prayed for her.  But how do you know that she lost her hearing?  How do you know that there wasn't some other cause for her 'regaining' it, such as getting a hearing aid?  Your story is more than a bit sparse on the details, and thus is not at all believable.

Regarding the latter, this has the problems I mentioned just before, in addition to the fact that this is hearsay.  You're repeating something you were told happened, rather than having observed it for yourself.  How do you know your friend wasn't playing a trick on you by taking advantage of your credulousness?

And finally, even if both were totally true, it would not make it likely that a god caused them.  You need to rule out all natural explanations before you can cite a supernatural one.

[Andrew]

If you blindly refute everything that someone says about God showing up in their lives then your saying that millions of Christians are simply lying about their encounter's with the supernatural. Do you really think that 100% of people are lying when they say that this happened or that happened. I certainly am not lying neither was my Christian friend. How do you explain a metaphysical sensation going into a persons back and healing from the laying on of hands. Or would you rather dismiss it say I'm lying and that it never happened and just keep dismissing billions of testimony because everyone is conspiring.

[Nam]

If you blindly refute everything that someone says about God showing up in their lives then your saying that millions of Christians are simply lying about their encounter's with the supernatural.

if they can't show non-biased evidence then that's exactly what is. you have shown no acceptable evidence; just bias and opinion you state as fact.

Do you really think that 100% of people are lying when they say that this happened or that happened.

If 100% of the are stating it: yes.

It's the same as me saying: I am your god because god told me. Others here agree that I am your god therefore it must be true.

That's the same logic you're using.

I certainly am not lying neither was my Christian friend. How do you explain a metaphysical sensation going into a persons back and healing from the laying on of hands. Or would you rather dismiss it say I'm lying and that it never happened and just keep dismissing billions of testimony because everyone is conspiring.

You're not providing any evidence. You're just saying it happened and we have to believe solely based on that or someone who thinks like you. Where's the outside non-biased source to back it up. Until you can show that of course we're going to assume you're lying.

-Nam

[jaimehlers]

If you blindly refute everything that someone says about God showing up in their lives then your saying that millions of Christians are simply lying about their encounter's with the supernatural. Do you really think that 100% of people are lying when they say that this happened or that happened.

Actually, I don't think most Christians are lying.  I think they're credulous - willing to accept things simply because someone else (probably someone they trust) says they're true.  It's a well-known fact that the human brain looks for patterns based on what it already knows - this is known as confirmation bias.  People tend to look to confirm something they already believe to be true, even if it requires a lot of rationalization to fit it in.

I certainly am not lying neither was my Christian friend. How do you explain a metaphysical sensation going into a persons back and healing from the laying on of hands. Or would you rather dismiss it say I'm lying and that it never happened and just keep dismissing billions of testimony because everyone is conspiring.

First off, the fact that a lot of people believe something doesn't change whether it's true or not.  That's why I said that it doesn't matter how many testimonies or anecdotes you provide.  Second, I'm a skeptic, which means I require people to provide evidence to support assertions they make about things - especially extraordinary assertions, such as this "laying on of hands" thing.  You have to prove that it even happens in the first place before worrying about how or why it works.

[mrbiscoop]

The more a person believes something the more likely they are going to see things in a light that confirms their own belief. AKA expectant attention.

[Andrew]

One time I was in a meeting and had my eyes closed just worshiping God. The guy in the front yelled 'Fire". I didn't even hear him say that but learned it later.., however, when he yelled that I began seeing flashes of fire and no matter how hard I tried to stay up I kept falling back and hit the floor. I wasn't in for that I was just worshiping God then it happened. How do you explain that? The power of the Holy Spirit?

[pianodwarf]

Hello, Andrew.  My use of green boldface font indicates that I am speaking as a moderator and not as a participant in the discussion.  Those who are posting here are attempting to help you with some difficulties that you are having with your posting style, and my own role is to do what I can to guide the process so that you can understand what the problem is and what you need to do to resolve it so that you can return to posting in the regular forums.

So let's start at the beginning: do you understand why you have been sent to the Emergency Room?

Aside for others participating in this thread: please restrict yourself to the question given above and not to responding to any topics that Andrew has posted here prior to being ER'ed.  Andrew, that applies to you as well: please restrict your posts to addressing the problem that has landed you in the Emergency Room.

[Astreja]

Actually, I don't think most Christians are lying.  I think they're credulous - willing to accept things simply because someone else (probably someone they trust) says they're true.

Or because they want it to be true.  But that isn't the issue here, Andrew; the issue is the way that you have chosen to converse with us.

It should be obvious by now that your accounts of miracles simply aren't convincing to us.  Many of us came from a Christian background, and reached a point where we no longer believed.  The stories that you've been telling are simply too weak for us to see them as evidence.  If you want to convince us, you have to come up with evidence that is up to our standards, not yours.  In other words, you have to understand our requirements lest you offer us an inferior product and not make the sale.

All you've given us so far is a bunch of stories that you could have very easily just made up.  We don't have any idea whether or not you're telling us the truth about your experiences.  Saying that you're telling the truth isn't enough.

The one thing that I find offensive in your posting style, Andrew, is that you don't appear to have much respect for us.  You use phrases like "blindly refute," and threaten us with hellfire.  Insults and threats are a very immature way to hold a conversation.  Got anything better?

[Tero]

If you blindly refute everything that someone says about God showing up in their lives then your saying that millions of Christians are simply lying about their encounter's with the supernatural. Do you really think that 100% of people are lying when they say that this happened or that happened.

They believe it was god. But really, it is something they had to explain. A supernatunal explanation seemed true to them, so they started believing it.

So very close to a lie, perhaps not consciously so.

[median]

If you blindly refute everything that someone says about God showing up in their lives then your saying that millions of Christians are simply lying about their encounter's with the supernatural. Do you really think that 100% of people are lying when they say that this happened or that happened. I certainly am not lying neither was my Christian friend. How do you explain a metaphysical sensation going into a persons back and healing from the laying on of hands. Or would you rather dismiss it say I'm lying and that it never happened and just keep dismissing billions of testimony because everyone is conspiring.

Andrew,
Have you read the forum rules? Do you understand that you cannot simply preach or make empty claims of "miracles" here? Did you know that simply name calling isn't going to get you anywhere here?

I was a fundamentalist "born again" Christian for nearly 20 years. It is very unlikely that you are going to convince me (or any others here) that your "Jesus" is real, or that the bible is "the Word of God", by merely CLAIMING that something "supernatural" happened by "the power of the Holy Spirit". All we are going to think is that you are gullible (especially when you haven't presented any evidence).

Do you have a cell phone camera video of your friend growing his eyeball back, or some other miraculous violation of the laws of physics taking place? If you have this kind of evidence you could likely be an instant millionaire b/c the James Randi Educational Foundation will pay you if you can demonstrate these miraculous things you are claiming. I am certainly open to changing my mind...are you?

If you would like to continue discussing these issues in the forums (and have your account restored) please demonstrate to the moderators that you know the rules here and are willing to abide by them.

[Ambassador Pony]

Members, with respect, I think helping Andrew is most likely better accomplished by one or two dedicated members interacting with him here. Pianodwarf is the one who stepped up to try and help Andrew out. Please do not post in this topic unless asked to contribute by Pianodwarf. I hope you understand.

Andrew, please respond only to Pianodwarf's green posts above first, everything else can wait.

[pianodwarf]

Andrew, do you have any intention of continuing this discussion?