Author Topic: No reason exists to deny God's existence  (Read 6169 times)

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Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #145 on: August 18, 2010, 11:20:29 AM »
The fact that certain places and persons mentioned in the bible exist does not mean that the extraordinary claims of the bible are true.

Thats not the goal of archaeology. If archaeology shows, that David, Pilatus, and other figures of the bible really existed, the job is done.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #146 on: August 18, 2010, 11:22:27 AM »
Please explain the mechanism behind how "through his word" actually works, then please provide evidence to back up your assertion as required by our forum rules.

thats not how science works.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/atheist-scientists-and-authors-f13/richard-dawkins-t33.htm

 First, in order to recognize an explanation as the best, one needn't have an explanation of the explanation. This is an elementary point concerning inference to the best explanation as practiced in the philosophy of science. If archaeologists digging in the earth were to discover things looking like arrowheads and hatchet heads and pottery shards, they would be justified in inferring that these artifacts are not the chance result of sedimentation and metamorphosis, but products of some unknown group of people, even though they had no explanation of who these people were or where they came from. Similarly, if astronauts were to come upon a pile of machinery on the back side of the moon, they would be justified in inferring that it was the product of intelligent, extra-terrestrial agents, even if they had no idea whatsoever who these extra-terrestrial agents were or how they got there. In order to recognize an explanation as the best, one needn't be able to explain the explanation. In fact, so requiring would lead to an infinite regress of explanations, so that nothing could ever be explained and science would be destroyed. So in the case at hand, in order to recognize that intelligent design is the best explanation of the appearance of design in the universe, one needn't be able to explain the designer.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #147 on: August 18, 2010, 11:24:55 AM »
Abdi702,

If, instead of saying "through his word", you had said "through his anus" - would that have served as an explanation?  Why, or why not?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #148 on: August 18, 2010, 11:25:01 AM »
Whatever position you take, it will always be based on faith. On assumptions, you cannot prove. See Goedels theorem for this.


Kurt Gödel's theorem does not say this.  In his famous paper "Über formal unentscheidbare Sätze der Principia Mathematica und verwandter Systeme I" he proved that sufficiently complex axiomatic systems have true propositions for which that system can not provide a proof. 

That does not say that anything must be based on unproven assumptions.

It also does not negate the possibility of proving key assumptions by other means.  A good example of this is the Riemann hypothesis.  We have been unable to formally prove this statement and it may be resistant to such proofs, but we have actually checked it's results for many trillions of numbers and have therefore proven that it is valid in an extremely large range.


http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/philosophy-and-god-f14/godels-incompleteness-theorem-t274.htm

you cannot PROVE gravity will always be consistent at all times. You can only observe that it’s consistently true every time. Nearly all scientific laws are based on inductive reasoning. All of science rests on an assumption that the universe is orderly, logical and mathematical based on fixed discoverable laws.
You cannot PROVE this. (You can’t prove that the sun will come up tomorrow morning either.) You literally have to take it on faith. In fact most people don’t know that outside the science circle is a philosophy circle. Science is based on philosophical assumptions that you cannot scientifically prove. Actually, the scientific method cannot prove, it can only infer.
(Science originally came from the idea that God made an orderly universe which obeys fixed, discoverable laws - and because of those laws, He would not have to constantly tinker with it in order for it to operate.)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #149 on: August 18, 2010, 11:26:21 AM »
The fact that certain places and persons mentioned in the bible exist does not mean that the extraordinary claims of the bible are true.

Thats not the goal of archaeology. If archaeology shows, that David, Pilatus, and other figures of the bible really existed, the job is done.


Not at all.  No more than having president Obama in Spider-Man comics proves that the events in Spider-Man comics actually occurred.  This would, at best, prove that they used real people as a jumping off point; but would do nothing to prove that god and all of the supernatual stuffs in the bible are real or that they actually happened.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #150 on: August 18, 2010, 11:27:12 AM »
why not? are you sure, you want to believe, from absolutely nothing, something can arise ? absolute nothing is the absence of any thing, and from the absence of any thing, something could arise ? that is the culmination of nonsense, of irrational reasoning.

The answer was already given by MockTurtle:

Beta decay and vacuum fluctuation are both random events where particle spring into existence without a cause.  So, your argument fails on step one.

It's not the culmination of nonsense, this is actually the way the universe works. Not everything has a cause. Nature doesn't care that you do not find that intuitive, it works the way it works.
The fact that something can come from nothing is evident, our existence is direct proof for that. If the 'something' that came from nothing is either "God" or the universe doesn't really matter in this regard, in all cases, following your line of reasoning, some first element must have existed that couldn't possibly have had a cause. Using Ockham's razor it's therefore easier to conclude that the God hypothesis can be cut out of the equation as it doesn't add any explainative power to reach the end result of us existing.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/astronomy-cosmology-and-god-f15/quantum-fluctuations-t65.htm

from the book : a case of a creator

Quantum theory ... holds that a vacuum ... is subject to quantum uncertainties. This means that things can materialize out of the vacuum, although they tend to vanish back into it quickly... . Theoretically, anything-a dog, a house, a planet-can pop into existence by means of this quantum quirk, which physicists call a vacuum fluctuation. Probability, however, dictates that pairs of subatomic particles ... are by far the most likely creations and that they will last extremely briefly.... The spontaneous, persistent creation of something even as large as a molecule is profoundly unlikely. Nevertheless, in 1973 an assistant professor at Columbia University named Edward Tryon suggested that the entire universe might have come into existence this way.... The whole universe may be, to use [MIT physicist Alan] Guth's phrase, "a free lunch."20
I closed the magazine and tossed it on Craig's desk. "Maybe Tryon was right when he said, `I offer the modest proposal that our universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time.' “
Craig was listening intently. "Okay, that's a good question," he replied. "These subatomic particles the article talks about are called `virtual particles.' They are theoretical entities, and it's not even clear that they actually exist as opposed to being merely theoretical constructs.
"However, there's a much more important point to be made about this. You see, these particles, if they are real, do not come out of nothing. The quantum vacuum is not what most people envision when they think of a vacuum-that is, absolutely nothing. On the contrary, it's a sea of fluctuating energy, an arena of violent activity that has a rich physical structure and can be described by physical laws. These particles are thought to originate by fluctuations of the energy in the vacuum.
"So it's not an example of something coming into being out of nothing, or something coming into being without a cause. The quantum vacuum and the energy locked up in the vacuum are the cause of these particles. And then we have to ask, well, what is the origin of the whole quantum vacuum itself? Where does it come from?"
He let that question linger before continuing. "You've simply pushed back the issue of creation. Now you've got to account for how this very active ocean of fluctuating energy came into being. Do you see what I'm saying? If quantum physical laws operate within the domain described by quantum physics, you can't legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself. You need something transcendent that's beyond that domain in order to explain how the entire domain came into being. Suddenly, we're back to the origins question."

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #151 on: August 18, 2010, 11:37:49 AM »
Point here is you are looking at the issue from the wrong viewpoint, the universe is already a given. Of course, the random chance to again create this universe is extremely low, exactly as getting the exact same order in the shuffled cards is extremely low.

Actually, no. I think i see it from the right viewpoint. Our universe was not. And suddely it appeard. If God is not the best explanation, the only alternative you have, is chance. Deal with it..... and convince me, chance ( a inefficient cause ) is a better explanation than God ( a efficient cause ). ;)

Quote
1) We only know one positive example of a universe. We don't which other combinations might also produce life.

According to scientific knowledge, only Carbon molecules are apt to create life.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/origin-of-life-how-did-life-arise-on-earth-f2/can-life-only-arise-from-carbon-based-molecules-t122.htm

the case of a creator page 108

"That just won't work," he insisted. "Chemistry is one of the better understood areas of science. We know that you just can't get certain atoms to stick together in sufficient number and complexity to give you large molecules like carbon can. You can't get around it. And you just can't get other types of liquids to dissolve as many different kinds of chemicals as you can with water. There's something like half a dozen different properties of both water and carbon that are optimal for life. Nothing else comes close. Silicon falls far short of carbon.

Quote
2) We don't know why the universal constants have the values they do. All constants might be the consequence of one and? the same principle.

We don't know, but we can figure out what best explains that phenomena. There is no physical need , these to be in the exact range to permit life.

Fred Hoyle
(British astrophysicist)
“A common sense interpretation of the facts suggests that a superintellect has monkeyed with physics, as well as with chemistry and biology, and that there are no blind forces worth speaking about in nature. The numbers one calculates from the facts seem to me so overwhelming as to put this conclusion almost beyond question.”

Quote
There might also be an unlimited number of universes. We just don't know.

thats a terrible explanation. Actually, the only one, atheists have left , beside intelligent design.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/astronomy-cosmology-and-god-f15/multiverse-a-valid-hypotheses-t20-15.htm

How many universes then would you need to make it at all probable that one of them could be like our universe? String theorists posit a number of 10 to the power of 500. It might help to see that number written out. It is 1 with 500 zeroes after it.

Here goes: 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

Quote
3) A God doesn't solve the issue as it is even much more complex and unlikely than the few constants and rules that govern our universe.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/does-god-exist-origin-of-god-metaphysical-reality-f10/who-is-god-essence-of-god-t79-15.htm

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5493

As an unembodied mind, God is a remarkably simple entity. As a non-physical entity, a mind is not composed of parts, and its salient properties, like self-consciousness, rationality, and volition, are essential to it. In contrast to the contingent and variegated universe with all its inexplicable quantities and constants, a divine mind is startlingly simple. Certainly such a mind may have complex ideas—it may be thinking, for example, of the infinitesimal calculus—, but the mind itself is a remarkably simple entity. Dawkins has evidently confused a mind's ideas, which may, indeed, be complex, with a mind itself, which is an incredibly simple entity. Therefore, postulating a divine mind behind the universe most definitely does represent an advance in simplicity, for whatever that is worth.


http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/divine-simplicity/

According to the classical theism of Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas and their adherents, God is radically unlike creatures in that he is devoid of any complexity or composition, whether physical or metaphysical. Besides lacking spatial and temporal parts, God is free of matter/form composition, potency/act composition, and existence/essence composition. There is also no real distinction between God as subject of his attributes and his attributes. God is thus in a sense requiring clarification identical to each of his attributes, which implies that each attribute is identical to every other one. God is omniscient, then, not in virtue of instantiating or exemplifying omniscience — which would imply a real distinction between God and the property of omniscience — but by being omniscience. And the same holds for each of the divine omni-attributes: God is what he has. As identical to each of his attributes, God is identical to his nature. And since his nature or essence is identical to his existence, God is identical to his existence. This is the doctrine of divine simplicity (DDS). It is to be understood as an affirmation of God's absolute transcendence of creatures. God is not only radically non-anthropomorphic, but radically non-creaturomorphic, not only in respect of the properties he possesses, but in his manner of possessing them. God, we could say, differs in his very ontology from any and all created beings.

Offline Operator_020

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #152 on: August 18, 2010, 11:39:28 AM »
Abdi702

I have some concerns I would like you to address before your next post.

First, you have posted this:

And again : i am not here to prove something, and either ask others to disprove something. I have no proofs.
I just ask to present a better explanation for our existence.

I am not sure what that means.  Prior you posted this:
For what reason did you come to this forum.

To testify the most important i have found in my life : God

Please clarify why you are here. 

This forum is not for your testamony.  It is not for evangelizing.  It is not for preaching.  It is for discussion.  To that end you have been offered several pieces of sound advice by me and Moderator 018, which you have not even acknowledged.

Posting a link to your "private virtual library" is fine if an explanation in your own words accompanies it. This:
Science disproves Quran :

http://www.answer-islam.org/Science1.html
does not cut it. Please indicate that you understand.  If you do not, please ask a question that helps lead to clarifying for you.

Do this before your next post.

peace
020
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Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #153 on: August 18, 2010, 11:41:50 AM »
God existed in a timeless eternity.
Then please explain, how he manages to create.

through his word.
What how does that answer the question, I'll pose it again "if your god exists in a timeless eternity, how would he manage to create the universe, us, and everything else?
Please explain how he would do that?
His word simply isn't good enough.

And to answer "through his word" please explain how he is able to even speak in a timeless eternity?

Please try harder this time.

http://www.leaderu.com/offices/billcraig/docs/eternity.html

on a relational view of time God would exist timelessly and independently 'prior' to creation; at creation, which he has willed from eternity to appear temporally, time begins, and God subjects himself to time by being related to changing things.

Thus, the proper understanding of God, time, and eternity would be that God exists changelessly and timelessly prior to creation and in time after creation.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #154 on: August 18, 2010, 11:44:32 AM »
Abdi702

I have some concerns I would like you to address before your next post.

First, you have posted this:

And again : i am not here to prove something, and either ask others to disprove something. I have no proofs.
I just ask to present a better explanation for our existence.

I am not sure what that means.  Prior you posted this:
For what reason did you come to this forum.

To testify the most important i have found in my life : God

Please clarify why you are here. 

This forum is not for your testamony.  It is not for evangelizing.  It is not for preaching.  It is for discussion.  To that end you have been offered several pieces of sound advice by me and Moderator 018, which you have not even acknowledged.

Posting a link to your "private virtual library" is fine if an explanation in your own words accompanies it. This:
Science disproves Quran :

http://www.answer-islam.org/Science1.html
does not cut it. Please indicate that you understand.  If you do not, please ask a question that helps lead to clarifying for you.

Do this before your next post.

peace
020


ok. how about this:

 I am here to explain, why i believe, Theism is more rational than Atheism. I try to do it based on science, since the bible is not valid for most atheists.

Offline penkie

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #155 on: August 18, 2010, 11:46:05 AM »
He let that question linger before continuing. "You've simply pushed back the issue of creation. Now you've got to account for how this very active ocean of fluctuating energy came into being. Do you see what I'm saying? If quantum physical laws operate within the domain described by quantum physics, you can't legitimately use quantum physics to explain the origin of that domain itself. You need something transcendent that's beyond that domain in order to explain how the entire domain came into being. Suddenly, we're back to the origins question."

Not a valid conclusion.

Quantum Mechanics describes reality. Reality is that the universe is filled with causeless events, namely quantum fluctuations. The fact that such a causeless mechanism exists disproves your assertion that everything needs a cause. Thus this mechanism doesn't necessarily need a cause either.

So, no we're not back to the origins question, along the route we disproved your assertion that everything needs a cause.
"Technological progress is like an axe in the hands of a pathological criminal."

Offline HAL

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #156 on: August 18, 2010, 11:46:14 AM »
Whoa.

This guy is tackling way too many subjects at once. There is no way he can address it all. You better narrow down the subject matter Abdi702 before this gets any more convoluted.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #157 on: August 18, 2010, 11:47:22 AM »
...
“How many universes then would you need to make it at all probable that one of them could be like our universe? String theorists posit a number of 10 to the power of 500….Now that is an awful lot of universes, particularly since the estimate for the total number of atoms in the entire observable universe is no more than 10 to the power of 80.”

There are 52!=8.1x10^67 ways to shuffle a deck of cards....
And since 254!=1.31x10^502, if you mix just 5 decks of cards together and shuffle them, the odds of any one combination appearing are much less likely than 1 in 10^500.

Of course, the one in 10^500 number is meaningless in this context.  While that might be the number of possible false vacua arising from different Calabi–Yau manifolds, is there any reason to believe that each one is equally likely?  If not, your statistical argument is weakened even further.  Also, that number is based entirely on string theory, which has yet to be validated experimentally.



there are many reasons against the multiverse theory.

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/astronomy-cosmology-and-god-f15/multiverse-a-valid-hypotheses-t20.htm

One can still explain the universe by randomness—this universe is one of a run of universes and big bangs, and ours happened to have the right characteristics for life. Or one can invoke the many-worlds theory: the universe is constantly splitting into many worlds, some of which will be right for life. But to invent myriads of other worlds in order to explain how this one came to be seems to show an addiction to randomness in one's explanatory scheme. It seems more economical (and remember that science often recommends simplicity in explanations) to posit that there were some constraints on the only universe we know that made it right for life.

Offline Abdi702

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #158 on: August 18, 2010, 11:50:10 AM »
Because most probably, our universe had a beginning, thus must have had a cause. And secondly, because our universe seems to be designed. Why then exclude a designer ?

If entities and things that seem to be designed need a designer - then who designed the designer? Surely a god would be the most complex "thing" existing, yet you claim it wouldn't need a designer. This is not logical.

i answered your question already .

Who designed the Designer?

http://elshamah.heavenforum.com/does-god-exist-origin-of-god-metaphysical-reality-f10/who-created-god-t77.htm

God is different from all nature and humanity and everything that exists, in that he has always existed, independent from anything he created. God is not a dependent being, but self-sufficient, self-existent. And this is exactly how the Bible describes God, and how God has revealed himself to be. Why must God be this way?

Our universe cannot be explained any other way. It could not have created itself. It has not always existed. And it could not be created by something that itself is created. Why not?

It isn't coherent to argue that the universe was created by God, but God was in turn created by God to the second power, who was in turn created by God to the third power, and so on. As Aristotle cogently argued, there must be a reality that causes but is itself uncaused (or, a being that moves but is itself unmoved). Why? Because if there is an infinite regression of causes, then by definition the whole process could never begin.


Offline Abdi702

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Offline Operator_020

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #160 on: August 18, 2010, 11:52:21 AM »
I have unlocked this topic in case anyone wanted to take up the conversation. 

Please note that Abdi702 was last seen in the ER and stated he did not intend to return to this forum.  So it is unlikely you will get a response from him.

peace
020
« Last Edit: August 19, 2010, 11:26:37 AM by Moderator_020 »
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Offline spiritualatheist

Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #161 on: August 20, 2010, 07:37:11 PM »
I got this message from a Youtube creationist retard.

Quote
No more than you can prove evolution is FACT & TRUTHFUL.

You were indoctrinated into a evolutionism (a religion) and you defend its myth!

And,

What does Creationism have to do with evolution?

Prove evolution for me.

If evolution can't be proven how is it science?

Have you been to the Smithsonian? And seen the evolution displays? You'll be on the floor laughing so hard you'll have tears in your eyes. And that is the best science can do?

I want to see fossils of the same specie lined up from the earliest to the most recent w/ the certified DNA & RNA tests by 3 laboratories from 3 different countries done by ppl w/ integrity!

If evolution is true the natural history museums would be full of such displays as I just mentioned.

The argument that evolution happens over millions if not billions of yrs is a cop out.

It didn't take millions of yrs for the elephant man to become what he was.

Man has done genetic changes to plants and animals it didn't take millions of years!

Evil scientists are putting insect dna in our foods. Now that is a real Nobel Prize winner.

Small people got no reason!

Challenge - For every good scientist you can name I'll name a bad one and let's see which of us runs out 1st.


"PREJUDICED ARE WITHOUT REASON"
His or her name is ElShadiaLives btw.
Religion is to superstition as chocolate is to coco beans.
You can call me an atheist or agnostic with pantheistic beliefs but I ain't believing in your imaginary omnipotent friend bullshit.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #162 on: August 20, 2010, 08:08:01 PM »

Please note that Abdi702 was last seen in the ER and stated he did not intend to return to this forum.  So it is unlikely you will get a response from him.

peace
020

Bummer... I was hoping he would eventually get around to trying to refute my claim that the god of the OT is a "monster".
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline luckyace

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  • not THIS guy....
Re: No reason exists to deny God's existence
« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2010, 08:09:07 PM »
Quote from: ElShadiaLives
...You were indoctrinated into a evolutionism (a religion)...
You, sir or madam, are full of crap.
Definition of 'religion':
Quote from: Google Definition
Definitions of religion on the Web:

a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
See? Evolution is not a divine power.
Thanks for trying.
Quote from: ElShadiaLives
...Have you been to the Smithsonian? And seen the evolution displays? You'll be on the floor laughing so hard you'll have tears in your eyes. And that is the best science can do?...
Have you read the bible? And read it? You'll be on the floor laughing so hard you'll have tears in your eyes. And that's the best lie humanity can create?
 
Quote from: ElShadiaLives
I want to see fossils of the same specie lined up from the earliest to the most recent w/ the certified DNA & RNA tests by 3 laboratories from 3 different countries done by ppl w/ integrity!
I want to see ANY biologist not agree that evolution is, at this point, pretty much proven.
Quote from: ElShadiaLives

If evolution is true the natural history museums would be full of such displays as I just mentioned.
..they are....

Quote from: ElShadiaLives
The argument that evolution happens over millions if not billions of yrs is a cop out.
Elaborate.

Quote from: ElShadiaLives
It didn't take millions of yrs for the elephant man to become what he was.

Are you an idiot? Have you even heard of genetics?
Do you know why you and your biological parents look similar?


Quote from: ElShadiaLives
Evil scientists are putting insect dna in our foods. Now that is a real Nobel Prize winner.

Even if this was true, eating DNA has no effect on life...

Quote from: ElShadiaLives
Challenge - For every good scientist you can name I'll name a bad one and let's see which of us runs out 1st.
For every Young Earth Creationist you name, I'll name an idiot....


I realize this is from someone on youtube, but I just had to.
Sorry if I offended any YEC's, just thought it needed to be said.


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