Author Topic: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D  (Read 23040 times)

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Offline swordcrasher

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OK, Anyone who read my last topic knows I'm a new Atheist ex-christian. I'm still 15 and living under the full influence of my heavily religious parents.

I was just talking to my Dad about religious issues, and I think the point got across I'm starting to call bullshit on religion. But in the process, he presented some interesting arguments I wasn't able to really answer or really react to. In retro, he carefully tried to sneak around some of the heavy issues I presented by combating heavy issues with heavy issues, BUT *gasp*, realistically that is done by both sides to be honest.

After all that tongue-twisting I have a few things I was wondering if the Atheist dogs are able to tear apart.

Here are some of his claims. (There are quite a few and I'll probably miss one)


1. Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???

2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible, there is a definite reason to believe in a creator. Not necessarily almighty jeebus at this point, but a creator. This "creator" wouldn't be bound  by time or space since they didn't exist because the universe didn't exist. Crazy yes, but a somewhat, kinda, rational way to finally explain away the issue. What say ye???

3. Once, we passed the entire unfalsifiable argument for both sides and how both are, truly, unreasonably absurd we moved onto the Atheistic mindset of humbleness that we really can't know. (But of course he's still hellbent that means a creator must exist, but really is that an unreasonable possibility in the face of the odds????) Now we move to the credibility of the Bible. I was stating how could we possibly know any of this is true, was written by who the Bible says it was, and is really worth anyone's time as a valid religious text
                  For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. The flaw he said people believe is it was all written by one person at one remote time. This is proven false by all the findings of different scrolls from different time periods and artifacts and blah blah so even I accept that it was written by a bunch of different people. Now, he claims these were holy people and that's why what they say is religious and such. So his argument was that the Bible was right in areas before others were and specifically made a few decent claims or something supported by archeological digs.
- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.
- He claimed because of it never being proven wrong, and consistently being right before others, like even with washing hands (look that one up), it holds water as a trustable document)
- I said just because they knew Bathshebialid burned down at this time period and SAID God didn't doesn't mean he did. They coulda made that shit up.

no answer....

Even I started to get lost and it seemed like more and more desperateness so if this even seems like a question, can anyone validly disprove these statements????


Bleh Bleh that was a mouth full, anyway this left me kind of confused cause I know a few very smart religious people that seem to not be stupid, ignorant, "faithful", Christians. But I HAVE heard very valid points on this site so someone set me straight please. Thanks :)

Finally, what do I do in this situation because they sound so convincing in person and having someone as emotionally connected as your parents (whether you actually like them or not) lecturing you why their right using the typical (what i used to find logical) rationalizing is SO DAMN FRUSTRUATING!!!!!!!



point and case... help me haha

Offline Cyberia

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2010, 01:32:16 AM »
1. Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???
Who?  Always ask theists to back up their claims.


2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible, there is a definite reason to believe in a creator. Not necessarily almighty jeebus at this point, but a creator. This "creator" wouldn't be bound  by time or space since they didn't exist because the universe didn't exist. Crazy yes, but a somewhat, kinda, rational way to finally explain away the issue. What say ye???
The Fine Tuning Argument.  It get trashed here bad, search.  But basically by admittig that there ARE odds, they admit that it could indeed happen naturally.  Furthermore, since we are here, we WON vs the "odds".  It's like arguing that you couldn't possibly win the lottery WHEN YOU'RE HOLDING THE WINING TICKET.


For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. The flaw he said people believe is it was all written by one person at one remote time.
Moby Dick accurately describes 18th century whaling, does that make Moby Dick true?

The capitol of the United Federation of Planets is in San Francisco, is Star Trek real?


- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.
Please provide.  Always ask theists to back up their claims.


- He claimed because of it never being proven wrong, and consistently being right before others, like even with washing hands (look that one up), it holds water as a trustable document)
There is an entire forum here full of biblical contradictions, peruse it.


- I said just because they knew Bathshebialid burned down at this time period and SAID God didn't doesn't mean he did. They coulda made that s**t up.
A city burned is proof of God?  Goddidit?
Soon we will judge angels.

Offline wright

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2010, 01:58:22 AM »
Cyberia gave you some good replies. I'll only add this in response to your dad's first point...

swordcrasher:
Quote
1. Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???

Just because someone is more intelligent and insightful in a particular field (or even several fields) of endeavor than most people, it does not make them incapable of being wrong. Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes, was taken in by a hoax perpetuated by a couple of schoolchildren. Google his name plus "fairies" for some details on that, or look it up on Wiki; it's a classic.

Critical thinking, consciously setting aside one's prejudices, is extremely difficult. In a dispute, we prefer the easier route of looking for evidence that confirms (not challenges) our beliefs. This process is not  easier just because someone is a scientist or has a high IQ.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Rokusho

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2010, 03:44:11 AM »
1. Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???

Not only is this argument wrong because it's an appeal to authority (on the same level of saying my dad can beat up your dad as some form of arguing), but the vast majority of scientists are atheists, or at the very least deists.  Just go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists and find out for yourself how many atheists scientists, TV stars and whatnot are outta the closet. :P

2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible, there is a definite reason to believe in a creator. Not necessarily almighty jeebus at this point, but a creator. This "creator" wouldn't be bound  by time or space since they didn't exist because the universe didn't exist. Crazy yes, but a somewhat, kinda, rational way to finally explain away the issue. What say ye???

This is a case of trying to invoke big numbers to make it seem impossible that the universe came into being without some god behind it.  Typically it's always a failure of application of the maths to calculate the probability because of a lack of scientific understanding. One example may be to say that the eye simply couldn't come about by chance, yet with evolution, there is a logical proven process that can (and has) easily accounted for it, with very little wiggle room for chance.

My friend always has a good response when Xtians talk about the laws of the universe (why is the gravitational constant specifically THAT number and not this).  "You only have a sample size of one!" Which is true, how can anyone calculate the probabilities of anything happening (beyond 1 or 0) if they only have a sample size (ie, the universe) of one!

3. Once, we passed the entire unfalsifiable argument for both sides and how both are, truly, unreasonably absurd we moved onto the Atheistic mindset of humbleness that we really can't know. (But of course he's still hellbent that means a creator must exist, but really is that an unreasonable possibility in the face of the odds????) Now we move to the credibility of the Bible. I was stating how could we possibly know any of this is true, was written by who the Bible says it was, and is really worth anyone's time as a valid religious text

Wooo, the Holy Babble, a book written by some guys about some guys in some place we know little about.  Amazing what peer pressure and religious organisations can do for the credibility of a book.

                 
For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. The flaw he said people believe is it was all written by one person at one remote time. This is proven false by all the findings of different scrolls from different time periods and artifacts and blah blah so even I accept that it was written by a bunch of different people. Now, he claims these were holy people and that's why what they say is religious and such. So his argument was that the Bible was right in areas before others were and specifically made a few decent claims or something supported by archeological digs.

Get specific evidence.  Let him know that just because SpiderMan is set in New York and New York exists, doesn't mean SpiderMan does.  Get him to present evidence, I'd love to see some real evidence beyond the Bible that shows Jesus came back to life an ascended to Heaven.

- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.

This is BS.  The creation story has it all in the wrong order compared to cosmological evolution.  Even a logical person could read the story and wonder how the hell life came about before sunlight, or how days existed before the sun.  It's a failure of herders not understanding anything about the formation of the universe.

- He claimed because of it never being proven wrong, and consistently being right before others, like even with washing hands (look that one up), it holds water as a trustable document)

Never proven wrong, sorry History doesn't work like that.  Every document, everything is liable to bias and is always considered by historians.  You NEVER accept something as accurate and true until it has been proven right.  Yet, for every little thing that the Bible may have gotten right, there is a long list of things it certainly got wrong (morality, science, etc.  Check the Sceptics Annotated Bible for more).

- I said just because they knew Bathshebialid burned down at this time period and SAID God didn't doesn't mean he did. They coulda made that shit up.

Even I started to get lost and it seemed like more and more desperateness so if this even seems like a question, can anyone validly disprove these statements????

The burden of proof lies with the man claiming them to be true.  He needs to prove them right, or any rational person should not be expected to accept them as truth.

Bleh Bleh that was a mouth full, anyway this left me kind of confused cause I know a few very smart religious people that seem to not be stupid, ignorant, "faithful", Christians. But I HAVE heard very valid points on this site so someone set me straight please. Thanks :)

Finally, what do I do in this situation because they sound so convincing in person and having someone as emotionally connected as your parents (whether you actually like them or not) lecturing you why their right using the typical (what i used to find logical) rationalizing is SO DAMN FRUSTRUATING!!!!!!!

It must be such a pain living with such a close minded faitheist.  I couldn't possibly understand how annoying it must be.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2010, 07:12:52 AM »
Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???
“Smart” and “High IQ,” do not mean “not gullible”
Some of these people actually say, “I don’t care what evidence you produce, I will still believe.”
What percentage are these theistic scientists? Very low. In a group of any profession, you will get eccentric ones.
Who was the scientist of whom your father spoke?

Quote
2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible,
The Odds are exactly = Certainty. We are here, it happened! What more proof do you want? People don’t understand odds. What are the chances that you would get a reply to this post? Do we say, “There are 7 Billion people in the world, it must be 7Billion: 1? No.
If we ask, “What are the chances of someone else giving this exact reply?” Now we are talking Billions.

Quote
3. Now we move to the credibility of the Bible. I was stating how could we possibly know any of this is true, was written by who the Bible says it was, and is really worth anyone's time as a valid religious text
                  For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. […] Now, he claims these were holy people and that's why what they say is religious and such. So his argument was that the Bible was right in areas before others were and specifically made a few decent claims or something supported by archeological digs.
A lot of the Old Testament is simply a history of the Jews – some is about right, other bits are made up. If you were writing a history of your area, you would be accurate with places and names. As it happens, the greatest mistake is where Jesus was born. The Bible says Bethlehem of Judea – however, at the time of his birth, Bethlehem of Judea did not exist, but Bethlehem of Galilee did.

Try this:
Swordcrasher has a religious father
Swordcrasher lives in the US
Swordcrasher is a well-known bank robber.

A couple of true statements do not make any other statements true.

Quote
- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.
This is “The case of the magic de-coding ring” all theists have these; it allows them to say what is true and what is “a translation issue.” Over the years, more and more has been shown to be wrong, and exactly the same amount has been explained away as “a translation issue.”

Quote
- He claimed because of it never being proven wrong, and consistently being right before others, like even with washing hands (look that one up), it holds water as a trustable document)

Google, “Pi in the bible.” God says Pi = 3. Read Genesis 30 and see God’s idea of how genetics work.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jetson

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2010, 08:02:44 AM »
Sword, a word of caution...

All of the replies so far are excellent!  This forum is a treasure trove of insightful and well spoken replies to practically every insane ranting of almost every type of theist.  Having said that...take your time!!!!

Don't try to tackle too many topics at once with your dad.  Using one of the examples above, you can dig deeper and deeper, asking more pointed questions as his replies come at you.  This is not easy, given your state of consideration of religion at the moment, so take it easy.  This was a major problem for me when i first started debating theists.  I would ask way too many questions, and the discussion would lose focus and get completely sidetracked.

Sometimes, a deep dive into one topic will naturally lead to another, and so on...

Final advice....never, ever try to explain something that you still don't fully understand! Stop by the forum, do some searching, or ask for more details.  I think most atheists on this board would admit that there is still much to learn, and every debate has a new gem in it somewhere!

Good luck to you.

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2010, 08:20:23 AM »
I say kick him in the nuts and then ask why God allows heathens to kick his special friends in the nuts.  :shrug

On a more serious note... try being 15 for a while man. These years are fast to flee and there will be plenty of time to worry about your philosophical bent. Take in the sights and sounds of the world and the people around you, form your opinions, and let them settle in before you start jumping into all this bother. Perhaps just ask your father to let sleeping dogs lie and try to get some fun in before you get to the '9 to 5. If your father is hellbent on keeping the conversation going (out of a desire to re-convert) then the best advice I can offer is to take it slow and easy, learn your arguments and fallacies, and learn how to spot them in your opponents argument. The only tool a person can take into these exchanges is intellectual honesty. So long as you conduct your side of the debate with the intent of seeking truth then you will do fine.

By the way; better get used to watching the other side "win" the argument, no matter how stupid their argument was. It is the single most frustrating thing about this whole mess, in my opinion. It is like arguing with a 2 year old kid that just sticks out their tongue and calls you a doo-doo-head.

(Edit: Minor grammar - No content changed)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2010, 08:50:50 AM by Xero-Kill »
"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

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Offline jetson

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2010, 08:36:29 AM »
You see! Xero just brought up something that is perhaps more important...don't forget to enjoy life!  Excellent point, for sure.  As a father, I prefer this advice based on your current age.  At the very least, I would advise you not to take it all too seriously.  After all, people have been arguing about God for thousands and thousands of years...and your father is not going to force you to believe something that your brain cannot accept.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2010, 08:55:51 AM »
1. Starting simple, he showed me some of the smartest, most recognized scientists in the world, that left Atheism for Theism. There was one in particular that spent his whole life, disproving religion only to come to the conclusion after examining his life's work there must be a creator. What say ye to these men probably much smarter than most of us???

93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not believe in a deity of any sort, but that is not a good argument to use because its just an appeal to authority / population.

Also, as has been pointed out to you, being an expert in one field does not make one an expert in another field. 

2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible, there is a definite reason to believe in a creator. Not necessarily almighty jeebus at this point, but a creator. This "creator" wouldn't be bound  by time or space since they didn't exist because the universe didn't exist. Crazy yes, but a somewhat, kinda, rational way to finally explain away the issue. What say ye???

The odds of the universe coming into existence are wholly dependent on what exists outside of our universe that created it in the first place.  That is information we simply don't have.  It is certainly possible that our universe came into existence in completely natural ways that were highly likely given the circumstances outside it.  Collision of 2 other universes, black hole remnants etc.  We simply have no way of knowing... yet. 

The odds of life coming into existence are 1:1 now that it's happened.  The fact that life exists does not tell you how it came to be... just that it exists. 

Saying a "creator" would not be bound by space and time is pretty loony.  Do you know of anything not bound by space and time?  To confidently assert that it is, without any evidence to back it up, is pretty nuts.  If we are going to allow that, then why couldn't we say it was Allah, or Vishnu, or Thor?   

To say that our universe is the only universe is like being born on a deserted island and thinking you were the only person on the planet.  I think it's far more likely that there are many universes out there.   

3. Once, we passed the entire unfalsifiable argument for both sides and how both are, truly, unreasonably absurd we moved onto the Atheistic mindset of humbleness that we really can't know. (But of course he's still hellbent that means a creator must exist, but really is that an unreasonable possibility in the face of the odds????) Now we move to the credibility of the Bible. I was stating how could we possibly know any of this is true, was written by who the Bible says it was, and is really worth anyone's time as a valid religious text

Read some Bart Ehrman books.  He will show you why there is no credibility to the bible. 

                  For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. The flaw he said people believe is it was all written by one person at one remote time. This is proven false by all the findings of different scrolls from different time periods and artifacts and blah blah so even I accept that it was written by a bunch of different people.

Why is that a problem?  It's simply a fact.  Not only is it true that it was written by different people; but over the centuries it was manipulated, changed, added to and subtracted from by many a scribe, monk or priest that had their own agendas.  There is a mountain of evidence to show it. 

Now, he claims these were holy people and that's why what they say is religious and such. So his argument was that the Bible was right in areas before others were and specifically made a few decent claims or something supported by archeological digs.

What Graybeard and Cyberia says is accurate.  Just because places and names are there, does not mean any of what they say happened to those people in those places actually happened. 

Many a fictitious story has been set up in a real place, during a real time. 

- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.

That's just not true.  Go look up the biblical cure for leprosy or how they viewed breeding to see what I mean.

- He claimed because of it never being proven wrong, and consistently being right before others, like even with washing hands (look that one up), it holds water as a trustable document)

So God told them to wash their hands but couldn't tell them how to keep excrement out of their food? 

From the King James bible.   Ezekiel 4:12

Quote
And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

Yummy... whatever. 

- I said just because they knew Bathshebialid burned down at this time period and SAID God didn't doesn't mean he did. They coulda made that shit up.

It's all made up. 

Even I started to get lost and it seemed like more and more desperateness so if this even seems like a question, can anyone validly disprove these statements????

You are new to this.  Just relax and use what you know.  Having a debate verbally is a lot harder than doing it hiding behind a computer screen.  Trust me, I know.  It may help you to study up some more and be armed with things to say against him.  Read some Bart Ehrman books if you want to be fully armed in showing him the problems with the bible.  The desperateness comes from the fact that he has probably spent a lot of time convincing himself that this stuff is true, so he is better armed to have this discussion with you.  In other words, he has been arming himself for years and has a lot of bad information to throw at you.  You are just now starting to arm yourself.  But know this... when you are fully armed with knowledge about his religion, he won't stand a chance against you.  He will always have to fall back on his faith, because the evidence and the truth is really not on his side. 

Bleh Bleh that was a mouth full, anyway this left me kind of confused cause I know a few very smart religious people that seem to not be stupid, ignorant, "faithful", Christians. But I HAVE heard very valid points on this site so someone set me straight please. Thanks :)

There are dumb Christians and smart ones.  But none of them have the truth on their side.  You can be very sure of that. You have to ask him to back up what he says in the future.  What scientists converted?  Show him examples of scientists that are nonbelievers (Go look up Project Steve.. it has more to do with ID and evolution, but it's still pretty good for this argument).  What parts of the bible are "scientifically correct"?  Show him the parts that are wrong.  Does one scientists opinion make or break the situation for either camp?  No.


Finally, what do I do in this situation because they sound so convincing in person and having someone as emotionally connected as your parents (whether you actually like them or not) lecturing you why their right using the typical (what i used to find logical) rationalizing is SO DAMN FRUSTRUATING!!!!!!!

My mom and I had it out a few months ago when she came down to visit me and my family.  She never knew I was an atheist until my older sister told her.  So during the time she was here, SHE started the conversation.  Now, I am not saying I am good at interpersonal debate at all, but I feel like the past 2 years has armed me heavily against a lot of the Christian arguments.  During the conversation, she always had to fall back on faith, because I could poke logical holes in everything she said.  So I attacked the idea that faith is a good thing.  I don't think she deconverted or anything, but I think she went away thinking about things a bit more, whereas nothing she said was new news to me.  I have heard all of her arguments on this website multiple times. 

With her it's a little easier.  She had a stroke when she was 34 (she is about 59 now) and once we got on that topic, she really had a hard time arguing that her God was good.  While we did talk about other things, this topic dominated the conversation.  It went something like this... only more drawn out.  I asked her why God gave her a stroke.  She said it helped get her out of her dead end marriage to my father.  I asked her why she needed a stroke to get out of it.  She said it was the best way to get her out of it.  I asked her if God ever helped get other women out of bad marriages without giving them brain damage and taking away the ability to use her left arm and leg?  .......... silence.  I pressed on asking her why God didn't give her the use of her arm and leg AFTER she was out of the marriage..... more silence. 

Faith is stronger than that though.  What we forget all the time (me included) is that reason and logic will not usually convert someone out of their beliefs because their beliefs are not based on reason and logic.  But what else are we to use?  I don't know.  It's not likely you will convert your dad.  But you can be sure that you are right, and he is wrong.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline MockTurtle

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2010, 11:01:05 AM »
2. There's the excuse that some of the odds of the universe and life coming to existence or greater than the scientific definition of impossible, there is a definite reason to believe in a creator. Not necessarily almighty jeebus at this point, but a creator. This "creator" wouldn't be bound  by time or space since they didn't exist because the universe didn't exist. Crazy yes, but a somewhat, kinda, rational way to finally explain away the issue. What say ye??

The scientific definition of impossible is a probability of exactly zero.  Very small odds are improbable, but not impossible.  But, things with very small odds happen all the time.

The odds of shuffling a deck of 52 cards into a specific order is 1 in 8.1 x 10^67.  That means it is almost certain that there has never been two decks randomly shuffled exactly the same way anywhere in the world.  As you increase the number of cards, the odds of a specific order drop dramatically.  If you had a 60 card deck, there would be more possible ways to order the deck than there are protons in the universe.  But, in any of these cases you can easily shuffle that deck and make such a rare event happen.

If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. — Paul Dirac

Offline wheels5894

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 11:46:50 AM »
Quote from: swordcrasher
He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.

You know this one interests me. Mostly, theists haven't tried to make much in the way of claims for the bible in terms of its scientific accuracy. It hasn't got that much to say on the topic anyway. However another, "totally written by godtm" has - at least according to the supporters of it.

The Qur'an we have been told by various posters has predicted much of modern science - to a greater extent than the bible at least. A little dig about on this forum should find some of the posts though a Google search will find load s of sites for this. I was wondering if one might concede that there was divine revelation available but in Islam and not in Christianity. I suspect your father might not want to go down that route but could find himself in difficulties arguing himself out.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline OnePerson

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2010, 12:51:15 PM »
Quote from: swordcrasher
He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.

They tend to make claims like this only after they reject everything in science that contradicts the Bible.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2010, 01:23:12 PM »

- He claimed the Bible has so far always been supported by science, if one is smart enough to see the "7 Days of Creation" as time periods and such as they were before translation issues.

Ask him if the people alive at the time when the concept of the "7 Days of Creation" was first conceived whether or not they believed that a "day" constituted exactly that... one 24 hour period... or did they respond as your father did by saying "No, no no! Don't you get it? God must have meant that a "day"= milions to billions of years!"?

The simple fact of the matter is that during the time span when chapters such as Genesis were being written, they could not forsee the fact that at some point in the future that advances in the sciences and technology would enable us to accurately discern the ages of the universe, the earth and approximately when each type of animal (man included) first appeared on the scene; thus effectively disproving the Biblical account of creation.

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2010, 02:07:34 PM »
Here is a great way to deal with the "odds are too great" argument. From a recent issue of Science News:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/59133/title/All_present-day_life_arose_from_a_single_ancestor

In a perfect world, ie one run by me, this would have been front page news, leading before the stories about Lindsey Lohan's latest  drug bust or whatever.

According to the first exhaustive statistical analysis, done by actual scientists, rather than bible students, "A universal common ancestor is at least 102,860 times more probable than having multiple ancestors, Theobald calculates."

In other words, the theory of evolution is incredibly, amazingly, irrefutably, astoundingly more likely than any other possibility for the way life developed on this planet.

The bible account isn't even close to being true. Tell your dad to put that in his statistical pipe and smoke it. Watch him tell you how statistics done by real scientists with fancy powerful computers are not as reliable as made up numbers from random bible apologists.  8)
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2010, 02:08:50 PM »
Sword, a word of caution...

All of the replies so far are excellent!  This forum is a treasure trove of insightful and well spoken replies to practically every insane ranting of almost every type of theist.  Having said that...take your time!!!!

Don't try to tackle too many topics at once with your dad.  Using one of the examples above, you can dig deeper and deeper, asking more pointed questions as his replies come at you.  This is not easy, given your state of consideration of religion at the moment, so take it easy.  This was a major problem for me when i first started debating theists.  I would ask way too many questions, and the discussion would lose focus and get completely sidetracked.

Sometimes, a deep dive into one topic will naturally lead to another, and so on...

Final advice....never, ever try to explain something that you still don't fully understand! Stop by the forum, do some searching, or ask for more details.  I think most atheists on this board would admit that there is still much to learn, and every debate has a new gem in it somewhere!

Good luck to you.

oh my sweet baby jeebus all these replies came out of nowhere haha

But that is a really valid point you make, I noticed that beginning to happen and I wanted to stick to one topic more. But I really am not educated in being a heathen quite yet so I definitely need to redirect some of his questions to the forum.

If they even make sense or consist of logical arguments haha

These are all great replies though  ;D

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2010, 02:27:04 PM »
On a more serious note... try being 15 for a while man. These years are fast to flee and there will be plenty of time to worry about your philosophical bent. Take in the sights and sounds of the world and the people around you, form your opinions, and let them settle in before you start jumping into all this bother. Perhaps just ask your father to let sleeping dogs lie and try to get some fun in before you get to the '9 to 5. If your father is hellbent on keeping the conversation going (out of a desire to re-convert) then the best advice I can offer is to take it slow and easy, learn your arguments and fallacies, and learn how to spot them in your opponents argument. The only tool a person can take into these exchanges is intellectual honesty. So long as you conduct your side of the debate with the intent of seeking truth then you will do fine.

By the way; better get used to watching the other side "win" the argument, no matter how stupid their argument was. It is the single most frustrating thing about this whole mess, in my opinion. It is like arguing with a 2 year old kid that just sticks out their tongue and calls you a doo-doo-head.
Yeah, I know what you mean, for the most part I have resorted to just not giving a damn about any God that has no impact or effect whatsoever on my everyday life. I technically just became an official "Athiest" but I've been questioning aspects of religion for a good part of the year, a bit after I joined this site actually.

I do find it all fascinating though and if I didn't have other interests more important to me I might of been some scholar or scientist. Seems like a interesting enough job... and well paying haha

Finally, I've seen the Christians "win" the argument all the time haha. It's so fucking stupid you just want to scream at their face how ignorant they are. And yes, you feel like you're arguing with a 2 year old kid that is sticking out his tongue and calling you a doo-doo-head haha, great analogy  8)

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2010, 02:32:47 PM »
Why is that a problem?  It's simply a fact.  Not only is it true that it was written by different people; but over the centuries it was manipulated, changed, added to and subtracted from by many a scribe, monk or priest that had their own agendas.  There is a mountain of evidence to show it. 

There are many flaws with the Bible but it changing is not one of them. I'm gonna have to call you out on that one.

There is actually a mountain of evidence showing most of (I mean I'm not sure if all) of the scrolls that were mashed into the Bible have consistently stayed the same.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls??? There's a million different artifacts that shows the Bible, be it or be it not utter bullshit, hasn't really changed at all.

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2010, 02:39:02 PM »
Here is a great way to deal with the "odds are too great" argument. From a recent issue of Science News:

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/59133/title/All_present-day_life_arose_from_a_single_ancestor

In a perfect world, ie one run by me, this would have been front page news, leading before the stories about Lindsey Lohan's latest  drug bust or whatever.

According to the first exhaustive statistical analysis, done by actual scientists, rather than bible students, "A universal common ancestor is at least 102,860 times more probable than having multiple ancestors, Theobald calculates."

In other words, the theory of evolution is incredibly, amazingly, irrefutably, astoundingly more likely than any other possibility for the way life developed on this planet.

The bible account isn't even close to being true. Tell your dad to put that in his statistical pipe and smoke it. Watch him tell you how statistics done by real scientists with fancy powerful computers are not as reliable as made up numbers from random bible apologists.  8)


thanks for that, great site

Offline screwtape

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2010, 02:44:00 PM »
There are many flaws with the Bible but it changing is not one of them. I'm gonna have to call you out on that one.

There is actually a mountain of evidence showing most of (I mean I'm not sure if all) of the scrolls that were mashed into the Bible have consistently stayed the same.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls??? There's a million different artifacts that shows the Bible, be it or be it not utter bullshit, hasn't really changed at all.

malarkey.

Read Misquoting Jesus, by Bart Ehrman.  He deals with just the changes in the NT. 
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2010, 02:45:05 PM »
Future Things

We believe the Lord Jesus Christ will return to this earth, personally, bodily, and visibly to establish his glorious reign in a kingdom that will never end. As the sovereign Lord, He will resurrect and judge all humanity. Those who have received His offer of life through the Gospel will go to eternal blessings in heaven; those who have rejected it, to eternal conscious torment in hell. We look forward to the blessed hope, Christ's Second Coming in glory.

This was the first area I called bullshit. (Dear God I say that a lot right now haha)

That seems a obscenely harsh, and really stupid. You refute something that seems illogical to you and God sends you to hell so you can suffer eternal torture. What the fuck kinda God is that!?!?!?  :o

A fake one ahaha, I mean that right there is enough to get me to stop believing in anyone that blatantly ignorant and blind to all compassion and kindness. Especially when he's supposed to be all loving

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2010, 02:48:01 PM »
malarkey.

Read Misquoting Jesus, by Bart Ehrman.  He deals with just the changes in the NT. 

thanks, will definitely check that book out

Offline JeffPT

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2010, 08:42:21 PM »
Why is that a problem?  It's simply a fact.  Not only is it true that it was written by different people; but over the centuries it was manipulated, changed, added to and subtracted from by many a scribe, monk or priest that had their own agendas.  There is a mountain of evidence to show it. 

There are many flaws with the Bible but it changing is not one of them. I'm gonna have to call you out on that one.

There is actually a mountain of evidence showing most of (I mean I'm not sure if all) of the scrolls that were mashed into the Bible have consistently stayed the same.

Ever heard of the Dead Sea Scrolls??? There's a million different artifacts that shows the Bible, be it or be it not utter bullshit, hasn't really changed at all.

No sir, this is simply not true. 

Until mass printing options were available, the people who wrote the copies of the bible did a lot of manipulation to it. 

What do you actually know about the Dead Sea Scrolls btw?  Do you think they match what the bible says or something? Let me give you a quote from Bart Ehrmans "Lost Christianities, The Battle for Scripture and the Faiths we Never Knew".

Quote
The importance of the Dead Sea Scrolls for early Christianity cannot be minimized. But the importance is indirect. Despite what one reads in sensationalist
media guides and in dramatic theories sometimes advanced by otherwise competent scholars, the scrolls never mention John the Baptist or Jesus or any of Jesus’ followers; they contain nothing Christian. They are important for early Christian studies (as opposed to early Jewish studies, for which they are
directly relevant) because they give us a rare firsthand glimpse of society, culture, and religion in the birthplace of Christianity at just the time Christianity
was born.

So the Dead Sea Scrolls have NOTHING to do with the bible at all.  They are not biblical writings despite what you may have been led to believe.  As I said swordcrasher, go arm yourself first.  This is stuff you should know.  The belief that the bible has remained unchanged since it was first penned is completely false in every way. 

With regard to the scriptures staying the same.. As Screwtape said, "Misquoting Jesus" has a lot of information about changes made to the bible.  Pay particular attention to the later chapters (6 and beyond) in the book and especially the conclusion chapter.   Let me give you just one sentence he wrote from it from the conclusion chapter.  It's just a teaser for you...
 
Quote
The more I studied the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, the more I realized just how radically the text had been altered over the years at the hands of scribes, who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it.

Whoever told you that the scrolls stayed consistent over the years is not telling you the truth. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline xphobe

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2010, 10:58:48 PM »
                  For this one, he first went on to say how much the Bible has been right. Predicting where cities where and such. The flaw he said people believe is it was all written by one person at one remote time.

What???  Why would your dad even say that?  I can't think of anybody with even a basic level of education who seriously believes it was all written by one person.  Christians don't believe it and atheists don't believe it.   If it wasn't just you misunderstanding him, and your dad actually said that, then he's using it as a smokescreen to divert attention from the real flaws in the Bible - of which there are many.

About predictions, it's a no-brainer to write a prediction about something that's already happened.  Since we don't have the original documents anymore, but only copies that were penned after the event took place, how do we know someone didn't just add it after the fact, but before the document copy was widely known?

And if you know of a particular prediction, and you know it's something you could pull off, how difficult is it to take steps to make it happen?  According to the Bible, Jesus did this on more than one occasion.  In fact, he basically committed suicide by manipulating the authorities into a position where they had no choice but to kill him, which -surprise surprise- fulfills some ancient prophecy.  Anyone could do that if they were motivated enough or deluded enough.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2010, 12:05:21 AM »
^^^^Nowadays we call that "suicide by cop". Unfortunately pretty common. :P
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline swordcrasher

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2010, 01:26:21 AM »
What???  Why would your dad even say that?  I can't think of anybody with even a basic level of education who seriously believes it was all written by one person.  Christians don't believe it and atheists don't believe it.   If it wasn't just you misunderstanding him, and your dad actually said that, then he's using it as a smokescreen to divert attention from the real flaws in the Bible - of which there are many.

About predictions, it's a no-brainer to write a prediction about something that's already happened.  Since we don't have the original documents anymore, but only copies that were penned after the event took place, how do we know someone didn't just add it after the fact, but before the document copy was widely known?

And if you know of a particular prediction, and you know it's something you could pull off, how difficult is it to take steps to make it happen?  According to the Bible, Jesus did this on more than one occasion.  In fact, he basically committed suicide by manipulating the authorities into a position where they had no choice but to kill him, which -surprise surprise- fulfills some ancient prophecy.  Anyone could do that if they were motivated enough or deluded enough.

ohh dear jeebus, either some people on this forum are a bit misguided or I was eating more Christian lies than I originally anticipated...

since the Bible is the crucial part of the Christian faith, even though I am convinced of the lack of any evidence, it seems like a load off to finally discredit it

That's me, apparently most people seem to be fairly confident in their assertions against the book haha


Anybody got any good reads against the Bible besides the book Screwtape told me about???? Damn parents have to make everything so complicated hehe, That list by MrFriday is amazing though, every time I read that it's ohhhh yeah thats why I'm Atheist...  :P

Offline pingnak

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2010, 02:25:14 AM »
Well, you could start with the first council of Nicaea.  Where they got together and tried to hash out what being 'Christian' meant, 300+ years after their Jesus is said to have died.  God almighty didn't reach in and point at the 'right' answer, and nobody could agree on it.  So they voted on it.  All very democratic. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

You can also look up the Bible on Wikipedia, while you're at it.  It has a history of how different versions of it were compiled.

A small note on citing Wikipedia: It's a great place to START research, but not a good place to FINISH it.  Read the discussions, and follow up some of the citations at the bottom of the article(s), too.

Of course, other editions of bible have been edited and even redacted since then.  The 'ten commandments' has different versions, according to whether you read a Jewish Torah, Catholic or Protestant bible.  Some bible variants remove the 'old testament' completely, which conveniently removes a lot of points of contention, and replaces them with one standard 'You removed WHAT?' point of contention.

It's just the infallible, sacred word of god, filtered through committees and edited to suit modern trends and keep it marketable to the dull masses.

Offline xphobe

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2010, 07:47:25 AM »
ohh dear jeebus, either some people on this forum are a bit misguided or I was eating more Christian lies than I originally anticipated...

swordcrasher, I don't appreciate being called misguided.  My post covered two topics: first that your dad lied to you, and second how it's possible for a book to contain predictions that come true.  Do you take issue with either point?
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Offline Jim

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2010, 08:04:44 AM »
The skeptics annotated bible has just about every refutation you could come up with.
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/

If you're going to use it, may as well be familiar with this page:
http://www.tektonics.org/sab/sab.html

Which is a bunch of "nyah nyah, it doesn't matter what they say".  Which is what you'll get from any Christian who you will get into a line by line argument with.
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: AaAaUuuuGggGGHhhHHhhh!!!!! Smart Atheist people please help haha :D
« Reply #28 on: August 09, 2010, 08:26:14 AM »
but the vast majority of scientists are atheists, or at the very least deists.  Just go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists and find out for yourself how many atheists scientists,

93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences do not believe in a deity of any sort

Hmm…..kind of makes you wonder how much of the information we get from the scientific community might have a biased non-theist slant to it ?