"...Except when my God is involved"

[Woland]

Any person in the Bible, other than Jesus, is just another fallible human being.

Even God? 

We're all able to play "pretend that if there was a God he would choose violent barbarians to be prophets and represent him", but what your reply fails to address is the massive prevalence of BibleGod-approved evil throughout the Bible.

There are countless examples of this - asking Abraham to sacrifice his own son is a clear-cut, undeniable example of the insanity of the BibleGod concept.

The best you can reply to this is "God can do what he wants even if only to prove a point, it's his creation". How merciful, how loving, and also how reminiscent of the attitude of a mafia boss and of his despicable underlings.

Yes, I know the significance of this eludes you.

Woland

[Wootah]

Any person in the Bible, other than Jesus, is just another fallible human being.

Even God? 

We're all able to play "pretend that if there was a God he would choose violent barbarians to be prophets and represent him", but what your reply fails to address is the massive prevalence of BibleGod-approved evil throughout the Bible.

There are countless examples of this - asking Abraham to sacrifice his own son is a clear-cut, undeniable example of the insanity of the BibleGod concept.

The best you can reply to this is "God can do what he wants even if only to prove a point, it's his creation". How merciful, how loving, and also how reminiscent of the attitude of a mafia boss and of his despicable underlings.

Yes, I know the significance of this eludes you.

Woland

Oh come now Woland - did Abraham have to kill his son? It's denial of a very clear and long established reason for that action that has you claim it signifies: There are countless examples of this - asking Abraham to sacrifice his own son is a clear-cut, undeniable example of the insanity of the BibleGod concept.

Overall that is all you have - a different interpretation to long established interpretations. My point is that I do agree with your views that Christians have to accept the interpretation we have been given but I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

[thatguy]

I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

It's hard to imagine being that fucking stupid.


THINK Man! Just look at this well known bit from a Bible story.
Pharoh doesn't listen to Moses (Because God harded his heart.) So God kills every first born Egyptian child.

Dude. Your religion is a lie. This forum links to two websites listing dozens of reasons why that is so. Make the most of this one life you have. Try to understand reality.

Enough with your bullshit.

[Noman Peopled]

Overall that is all you have - a different interpretation to long established interpretations. My point is that I do agree with your views that Christians have to accept the interpretation we have been given but I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

I wonder why after two thousand years of attempts at reconciliation, there are still gaping discrepancies even in just the christian denominations.

Jepthah's daughter wasn't as lucky as Isaac, was she? There's only so much interpretation you can derive from the source material before departing from it.
Also, the Midianites. If god is loving, his love seems pretty exclusive to a bunch of middle Eastern tribe throughout the OT.

[Wootah]

Overall that is all you have - a different interpretation to long established interpretations. My point is that I do agree with your views that Christians have to accept the interpretation we have been given but I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

I wonder why after two thousand years of attempts at reconciliation, there are still gaping discrepancies even in just the christian denominations.

Jepthah's daughter wasn't as lucky as Isaac, was she? There's only so much interpretation you can derive from the source material before departing from it.
Also, the Midianites. If god is loving, his love seems pretty exclusive to a bunch of middle Eastern tribe throughout the OT.

Jepthahs' daughter is a lesson for us all in rash promises and the time in question was pretty dark.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jephthah
http://www.christian-thinktank.com/fem02c.html

The Midianites went down. You should be happy God does that to evil and wish he did it more often!  http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

There are good solid answers to nearly everything.

[Wootah]

I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

It's hard to imagine being that fucking stupid.


THINK Man! Just look at this well known bit from a Bible story.
Pharoh doesn't listen to Moses (Because God harded his heart.) So God kills every first born Egyptian child.

Dude. Your religion is a lie. This forum links to two websites listing dozens of reasons why that is so. Make the most of this one life you have. Try to understand reality.

That is one of the few times God denies someone their free will. I think.

Enough with your bullshit.

You don't have to read these threads you know. I wasn't evening going to post except for the scoffing by several posters and Woland and me are 'internet buds'.

[Sashka]

Enough with your bullshit.

Can I steal this?

[Noman Peopled]

The Midianites went down. You should be happy God does that to evil and wish he did it more often!

Yeah, I'm certain they were all rotten to the core. Just like all the babies in the flood. Pardon me if I disagree with you and god that killing everybody in sight except for the sexy virgins is in no way distinguishable from any evil the Midianites might have been guilty of.
There is no such thing as a community of evil anywhere except the bible (and other religious texts as well as propaganda). Am I just supposed to think they were all rotten and evil and deserved to die because the bible says so? (Never even mind that I may not agree with god on the whole death penalty issue.) What about taking away the possibility of repentance? What about the virgins, were they not evil and worthy of the same annihilation?


That's without going into questioning god's judgment in not finding a more humane solution, have the Midianites be the target of a conversion campaign, or the question of why he doesn't do it anymore.

[Dkit]

That is one of the few times God denies someone their free will. I think.

Every time YHWH interferes with human activities, he's denying free will.  Adam and Eve, Isaac, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Pharaoh, Jephthah's daughter, Job's family, Onan, those who died in the flood, etc[1].  In these instances, he is directly affecting free will by punishing people for their choices or taking someone's choice away. 

1.	I'm sure there are dozens more examples, not including the NT

[Woland]

Oh come now Woland - did Abraham have to kill his son?

Sigh.

Did a a supposedly omnipotent being who created everything and who has dominion over everything and who is supposed to be the pinnacle of morality ask him to do so, or not?

What's your defense? "He didn't actually kill him so it's all good, no harm done"?

I realize that this is the best you can do, but honestly it's on the moral and ethical level of a 6 year old.

Overall that is all you have - a different interpretation to long established interpretations. My point is that I do agree with your views that Christians have to accept the interpretation we have been given but I find it to be a damn good explanation of events that do reconcile a good loving God with the nature of reality.

Go ahead Wootah, explain to me what could possibly make it alright for an omnieverything being to cruelly play with humans the way that he did.

I'm sure your story will reek of supreme morality.

Woland

[OnePerson]

The Midianites went down. You should be happy God does that to evil and wish he did it more often!  http://www.christian-thinktank.com/midian.html

And you wonder why no one here is convinced.

[Mims]

Alright, newbie kicking in (was just surfing the web and found this site, which I find amazingly interesting)
Be gentle.

I am a Christian. But I ... am always open minded.

The first thing I want to throw at the faces of the many who do not believe in an eternal being, a God, an Allah, whatever you want to call it: If you're going to be an atheist, do it right. Because if you do not believe in a God, and everything "just is," then a lot of things that were thought to exist actually don't. I mean morals.

If you're going to play atheist, then don't bring up any support of immoral acts or any other crap about what is "good" or what is "bad," because simply put, IF there is no God, if there is no eternal law/punishment/the-rest-of-it, then there is no GOOD or BAD, everything JUST IS. Good or bad is just an as imaginary as a God, (if you are atheist) and there is no right and wrong, everything is just in the heads of humans, everything just is.

I have been taught (and potentially conditioned myself) into understanding I am not the judge. IF there is a God, which is what i believe in, he is the one to judge yaddy-yaddy-yeah he'll do that on judgement day and the rest of it... I am not the judge. I do not say somethings are right and somethings are wrong. I mean, what if everything in this world was misinterpreted? What if i misinterpret what God refers to as right as being wrong (IF God is a living being) or vice versa. I don't have perfect insight (which would be called God's judgement, his insight i suppose, which would be perfect... ), but i know i believe that morals exist --> God exists.

Criticisms? Comments? (will only be on for a few more minutes)

i actually just want to post 3 replies already so i can start a new post ...  ugh.

[Aaron123]

The first thing I want to throw at the faces of the many who do not believe in an eternal being, a God, an Allah, whatever you want to call it: If you're going to be an atheist, do it right. Because if you do not believe in a God, and everything "just is," then a lot of things that were thought to exist actually don't. I mean morals.

If you're going to play atheist, then don't bring up any support of immoral acts or any other crap about what is "good" or what is "bad," because simply put, IF there is no God, if there is no eternal law/punishment/the-rest-of-it, then there is no GOOD or BAD, everything JUST IS. Good or bad is just an as imaginary as a God, (if you are atheist) and there is no right and wrong, everything is just in the heads of humans, everything just is.

This is just False Dilemma nonsense.  There is no god to tell us what is good and bad; humans do that.  Humans have always decided for themselves what is good or bad, often claiming that a god figure told them what is good and bad.   And almost as often, have changed their minds what IS good or bad(slavery, anyone?)

It's also very strange how the oh-so good christians are always "suggusting" to the godless atheists that they throw away their sense of morality.  Really, what's up with that?  Doesn't sound very christian to suggust to someone that they throw away their morality.

but i know i believe that morals exist --> God exists

Empathizing the keyword here.  You BELIEVE god exists; not "there is verifiable evidence for god's existence."

[OnePerson]

If you're going to play atheist, then don't bring up any support of immoral acts or any other crap about what is "good" or what is "bad," because simply put, IF there is no God, if there is no eternal law/punishment/the-rest-of-it, then there is no GOOD or BAD, everything JUST IS. Good or bad is just an as imaginary as a God, (if you are atheist) and there is no right and wrong, everything is just in the heads of humans, everything just is. 

If you think your morals are worthless because they come from yourself, then it really is no wonder why you believe in what you do.

[screwtape]

Alright, newbie kicking in

Welcome

Be gentle.

Fat chance

I am a Christian. But I ... am always open minded.

BAAAAAHAHAHAHAhahaha! heh heh.  Hee. Good one.  I almost peed my pants.

Of course you are.  Everyone is.  Even the most outrageously narrow minded people still claim to be open minded.  No one ever says "I am not open minded."  So why would you?

The first thing I want to throw at the faces...

You want us to be gentle and then you throw something in our faces?  What are you, some kind of asshole?

I mean morals.

Really?  Morals don't exist?  So what is it that keeps us amoral atheists from murdering all you religionists and taking your virgin daughters as loot?  That would be so much simpler and it would avoid the hassle of dealing with the fundies in court every two years to get creationism out of science class.

I am not the judge.

Preposterous.  We all judge.  It is a requirement of society and morality. Morals are the rules that allow animals like chimps, gorillas, bonobos and humans to function in a society.  Morals are limitations on our personal behaviors to allow groups to function to the mutual benefit of all the individuals.  But in order for it to work, the rules must be enforced.  That is to say, we must judge each other's actions and punishish transgression. After all, if rules are not enforced, you do not actually have rules, do you?  If xians did what they said they believe, their society would have crumbled within a hundred years of its inception.

I do not say somethings are right and somethings are wrong.

Preposterous.  Of course you do. You could not make it a week in society without that function.

While we are on the topic of morals, do you think morals exist independent of whatever iron age deity you claim to worship?  That is to say, is good good because yhwh says it is good, or is yhwh good because it adheres to a moral code that is evident?

Criticisms? Comments? (will only be on for a few more minutes)

You are using apologetics that are 60+ years old and have been wrecked by evolution.  I'm not saying evolution disproves yhwh.  I am saying, the reason you give for god belief - ie, the existence of morality - is a failure.

[Whateverman]

The first thing I want to throw at the faces of the many who do not believe in an eternal being, a God, an Allah, whatever you want to call it: If you're going to be an atheist, do it right. Because if you do not believe in a God, and everything "just is," then a lot of things that were thought to exist actually don't. I mean morals.

Criticisms? Comments? (will only be on for a few more minutes)

i actually just want to post 3 replies already so i can start a new post ...  ugh.

Humans have created many, many things.  Art is one of them.  Skyscrapers.  Twinkies.

Morality.

You're coming at the question of morality assuming it's universal and eternal, and trying to refute atheism (atheists?) by saying "If you don't believe in God then morality could not exist".  Atheists (at best) are skeptical of this kind of morality. There's plenty of evidence that the morality practiced by all people (even those who claim to follow the Bible) is relative and changes with time.

Beyond believing otherwise as a matter of faith, there's no evidence that absolute morality exists.  Ergo, your argument isn't going to be taken as credible.

[Noman Peopled]

Because if you do not believe in a God, and everything "just is," then a lot of things that were thought to exist actually don't. I mean morals.

Morality doesn't objectively exist. It's a bunch of rules of conduct that's subsumed under a handy term.

If you're going to play atheist, then don't bring up any support of immoral acts or any other crap about what is "good" or what is "bad," because simply put, IF there is no God, if there is no eternal law/punishment/the-rest-of-it, then there is no GOOD or BAD, everything JUST IS.

Which is, like, true, objectively speaking.
Subjectively, I tend to follow subjective moral guidelines nonetheless.
Btw, when I point at atrocities in the bible, I fully realize that my notion of good/bad have no bearing on the bible's veracity. Just pointing out that god is vile according to my own notion of good/bad.
Moreover, following the actual topic of the thread, it's a fallacy to defend those atrocities just because god commited them when nobody would defend anyone or anything else had they commited them.
You may cite god's special insight; logic calls it special pleading.

Good or bad is just an as imaginary as a God, (if you are atheist) and there is no right and wrong, everything is just in the heads of humans, everything just is.

Yes, precisely. Everything, including morals, is just in the head of humans.

I have been taught (and potentially conditioned myself) into understanding I am not the judge.

Suppose there is a god. What gives him the right to judge?

[BibleStudent]

THINK Man! Just look at this well known bit from a Bible story.
Pharoh doesn't listen to Moses (Because God harded his heart.) So God kills every first born Egyptian child.

Pharoah was responsible for the hardening of his heart. Recommend you study this story a little more in-depth.

Just out of curiosity, if you were God, how would you have gone about freeing the Israelites from the Egyptians ? (And please don’t say that you would not have permitted the situation from ever occurring in the first place.) Interested to hear your ‘plan.’

Subjectively, I tend to follow subjective moral guidelines nonetheless.

Do you believe that lying is wrong? If so, then why do you do it ? If you believe that judging others is wrong, then why do you still do it ? Are you morally perfect ? If not, why?
 

[Jessie]

If you're going to play atheist, then don't bring up any support of immoral acts or any other crap about what is "good" or what is "bad," because simply put, IF there is no God, if there is no eternal law/punishment/the-rest-of-it, then there is no GOOD or BAD, everything JUST IS. Good or bad is just an as imaginary as a God, (if you are atheist) and there is no right and wrong, everything is just in the heads of humans, everything just is.

Oh, get over yourself. Do not come here and tell us how to be "proper atheists." Seriously, wtf?

Second of all, your argument is nonsense, and it's nothing we've never heard before. Our morality is a product of evolution. We, as a social species, have learned through experience and a will to survive that we must cooperate and be kind to each other. It is through that experience that we learn that certain things are wrong, like stealing or murder. We see the negative effects these things have and we decide that these things are morally wrong. But if you say you only do good because a god tells you to or because you'll get some wonderful reward after you're dead, then you're not really a moral person. I honestly don't think that's what guides your morals, or any Christian's morals for that matter, despite what they may think. And the reason for that is because they always pick and choose what they already agree with in the Bible and then chuck out the nasty parts.

But answer me this. If you found out tomorrow that there was no god, would you then skip merrily outside and go on a killing and raping spree with a smile on your face?

I am not the judge. I do not say somethings are right and somethings are wrong.

You're doing it right now.

[BibleStudent]

Our morality is a product of evolution. We, as a social species, have learned through experience and a will to survive that we must cooperate and be kind to each other. It is through that experience that we learn that certain things are wrong, like stealing or murder. We see the negative effects these things have and we decide that these things are morally wrong.

I will ask you a similar question to the one I asked above - Assuming you have learned through experience that lying causes "negative effects," then why do you still do it ? If you are not morally and/or ethically perfect based on your experiences, why is that ?

[Dante]

I will ask you a similar question to the one I asked above - Assuming you have learned through experience that lying causes "negative effects," then why do you still do it ? If you are not morally and/or ethically perfect based on your experiences, why is that ?

Subjectively, I am perfect.

[OnePerson]

Our morality is a product of evolution. We, as a social species, have learned through experience and a will to survive that we must cooperate and be kind to each other. It is through that experience that we learn that certain things are wrong, like stealing or murder. We see the negative effects these things have and we decide that these things are morally wrong.

I will ask you a similar question to the one I asked above - Assuming you have learned through experience that lying causes "negative effects," then why do you still do it ? If you are not morally and/or ethically perfect based on your experiences, why is that ?

We have advanced brains to tell us that certain things cause negative effects only in certain situations.

For your second question, morals, ethics, and perfection are subjective.

[Aaron123]

Pharoah was responsible for the hardening of his heart. Recommend you study this story a little more in-depth.

Bullshit.  The story has god stating several times that he will harden Pharoah's heart.  I made a topic on this a while ago, so I'll just copy and paste from that.

Exodus 4:21-23
The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go. Then say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you, "Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.' "


Exodus 7:2-5
You are to say everything I command you, and your brother Aaron is to tell Pharaoh to let the Israelites go out of his country. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, he will not listen to you. Then I will lay my hand on Egypt and with mighty acts of judgment I will bring out my divisions, my people the Israelites. And the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring the Israelites out of it."

Exodus 9:12
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said to Moses.


Exodus 10:16-20
Pharaoh quickly summoned Moses and Aaron and said, "I have sinned against the LORD your God and against you. Now forgive my sin once more and pray to the LORD your God to take this deadly plague away from me." Moses then left Pharaoh and prayed to the LORD. And the LORD changed the wind to a very strong west wind, which caught up the locusts and carried them into the Red Sea. Not a locust was left anywhere in Egypt. But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go.


Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go


Exodus 11:9-10
The LORD had said to Moses, "Pharaoh will refuse to listen to you—so that my wonders may be multiplied in Egypt." 10 Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh, but the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let the Israelites go out of his country


Exodus 14:3-8
Pharaoh will think, 'The Israelites are wandering around the land in confusion, hemmed in by the desert.' And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD." So the Israelites did this.

*(skipped some stuff here)*

The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly



The story states over and over that god worked his magic on the Pharaoh.  How could Pharaoh possibily be responsible for the hardening of his heart?  The story is unambiguous about Pharaoh being mind-controled most of the time.

[screwtape]

Pharoah was responsible for the hardening of his heart. Recommend you study this story a little more in-depth.

ex 4:21

21 The LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

ex 7:3-4

But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in Egypt, 4 he will not listen to you.

All other instances of pharaoh's hard heart occur after yhwh hardened it.

Does the pharaoh's magicians doing actual magic that competes with yhwh's magic not disturb you?  Where are such feats of magic these days?  Why do we not have such magicians any more?  Why is this not a warning flag for you?


edit - crap.  aaron123 beat me to it.  And more thoroughly.

[Jessie]

I will ask you a similar question to the one I asked above - Assuming you have learned through experience that lying causes "negative effects," then why do you still do it ? If you are not morally and/or ethically perfect based on your experiences, why is that ?

I never claimed that lying always has negative effects, because it doesn't. It depends on the lie.

To propose that we should all be morally perfect is ridiculous. It's still a learning process. Morality has always changed, and it will continue to change. As others have said, it is subjective.

[BibleStudent]

Bullshit.  The story has god stating several times that he will harden Pharoah's heart.  I made a topic on this a while ago, so I'll just copy and paste from that.

All other instances of pharaoh's hard heart occur after yhwh hardened it.

edit - crap.  aaron123 beat me to it.  And more thoroughly.

You assert that God somehow cast a spell (or some such thing) on Pharaoh in order to harden his heart. Nothing could be further from the truth. God is simply stating what He knows will be the case when Moses approaches Pharaoh and the miraculous displays of God’s power are made manifest. God knew what kind of man Pharaoh was (a god in his own prideful twisted view) and that he would only grow colder and angrier with every attempt to upset his control over the Israelite slaves. Pharaoh’s hard-heartedness grew out of his own decisions to ignore God through Moses. When God says that He will harden Pharaoh's heart, He is stating what He knows will be the effect that His planned miracles will have on Pharaoh's heart.  
1 Samuel 6:6 further attests to this correct interpretation.

edit: to correct quotes

[OnePerson]

So God knew that it would make the Pharoah even more reluctant to free the Israelites but he still tried that method anyways?

[blue]

So God knew that it would make the Pharoah even more reluctant to free the Israelites but he still tried that method anyways?

Not only that but God then stuck his people even longer in the hands of the pharaoh to try to get pharaoh to repent even though God knew he wouldn't change his mind?

Yeah makes as much sense as a talking snake.

[BibleStudent]

I never claimed that lying always has negative effects, because it doesn't. It depends on the lie.

I see. So, you have the gift of an ‘evolved’ ability to accurately discern when it is okay to lie and when it is not?  Do your friends and family know this ? Do they know that sometimes you may be inclined to short them on the truth because you feel it’s okay ? Unless they are privy to the entire content of the code you live by, how can they, or anyone, fully trust you ? By definition, you have just labeled yourself a potentially dishonest, untrustworthy liar.