Author Topic: "...Except when my God is involved"  (Read 56518 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #174 on: August 04, 2010, 10:00:20 PM »
Yeah, the man living in a fish, the talking snakes, all real!  Dumb atheists...

Talking donkey though, no way, right?  

Oh wait, who was that guy that died and came back to life...somebody help me here...uh, oh, oh Jesus!  Jesus died and came back to life...that nails it right?  Christianity, as real as it gets people....

Sigh.

Offline MockTurtle

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #175 on: August 04, 2010, 10:01:29 PM »
Lol mockturtle. In essence your claim is that your shift is different from my shift and you won't acknowledge that that is the best you can do. The whole point really is to get you to acknowledge the 'and' you are so afraid of in your own reasoning.

Is there a point to that response?

I stand by my argument that subjective assessments are not, by definition, irrational.
If there is a problem with my facts or logic, tell me what it is.  


If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality. — Paul Dirac

Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #176 on: August 04, 2010, 10:01:50 PM »
No, I don't misunderstand atheism. I was just showing that I could use the same appeal from from a theist point of view. Actually, I would need to polish it up a bit in order for it to truly make sense but I think you get the point.

No, you don't understand and what you did cannot be applied to atheism.  There are too many to count gods that people claim to be true.  Atheism is a non-belief in any of them.

Try it with me now...

Atheism is a non-beleif in god or gods.

Now your stance....
I beleive in jesus
I believe in god
I believe in Thor
I believe in ...... ( And this could go on for quite some time)

See the difference!?  :shrug

« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 10:08:08 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline OnePerson

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #177 on: August 04, 2010, 10:03:34 PM »
Well, I see that BibleStudent gave up the argument about disproving that morals are subjective.  Guess we get to argue about the difference between Christianity and Atheism now.

Online JeffPT

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #178 on: August 04, 2010, 10:04:03 PM »
Let me see if I understand correctly. Morality is an "opinion" that can be produced by chemicals....correct?

The study shows that varying levels of oxytocin in the brain will ilicit varying levels of observed generocity.  I would assume varying the levels of oxytocin was exactly what the study did.  Stop saying things like "morality is..."  Morality is a just a word. It doesn't exist as something concrete.  It is just a word we use to inform others about how we see the world in terms of right and wrong.    

The study proves that generosity (a moral issue to be sure) can be changed via changing the level of a specific compound in the brain.  This is a scientific fact that you can not simply ignore.  If all our levels of generosity were directly from God, would varying the levels of chemicals in the brain be able to change how generous someone was?    




Also, with regard to that article from the atheist regarding objective morality.  He is entitled to his belief.  But not for one second, anywhere in his post, does he mention that it comes from some sort of diety.  He has some valid points, but when he talks about values and needs, all humans are different in what they value and need.  I just don't agree with him.  We share a common belief that there is no God, but it goes no further than that.  That's my OPINION.

Sam Harris in "Letter to a Christian Nation" writes...

Quote
But we can easily think of objective sources of moral order that do not require the existence of a lawgiving God. For there to be objective moral truths worth knowing, there need only be better and worse ways to seek happiness in this world.

What I disagree with is the idea that people seek happiness in ways that everyone would judge as better or worse.  If someone ate cow crap and loved it, are they seeking happiness in a better or worse way than me?  Who am I to say?  If you can't say everyone seeks happiness in the same way, then how can you say we have objective moral truths?  I may be wrong, but that's my stance.  

My reply:

Listen man, I am really sorry to say this but God atheism isn't real.  It's just not.  You are wasting time with your religious non-theist beliefs.  They are a cancer on you that you should try to get rid of.  I am not trying to convert you to any dogmatic version of atheism Christianity or to get you to buy into a time share or anything.  I am just saying there are millions of people out there who think... no KNOW, that the Christian God atheism is not real. What you do with that information is up to you.  I just want you to think for yourself a little.  Open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong.  Don't think it's real, ask yourself "could this be real".  Look at both sides of the argument, because I am willing to bet that most of your life has been spent on one side, and not in exploration of the other.  Take it from someone who explored both sides.  The Christian God atheist belief is fake.  100% fake.  While there may be some other version of god atheism out there that we don't know about, the Christian atheistic version God is dead in the water.

I lol'd.  While I didn't agree with Sam Harris regarding his position on objective moral truths, I DO agree with him on the following from the same book...  

Quote
Atheism is not a philosophy; it is not even a view of the world; it is simply an admission of the obvious. In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist." We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs. An atheist is simply a person who believes that the 260 million Americans (87 percent of the population) claiming to "never doubt the existence of God" should be obliged to present evidence for his existence—and, indeed, for his benevolence, given the relentless destruction of innocent human beings we witness in the world each day. An atheist is a person who believes that the murder of a single little girl— even once in a million years—casts doubt upon the idea of a benevolent God.

So you see, I don't "believe" in atheism.  You crossed out God and put atheism in there as if it is a "thing" to believe in.  It's not.  I am just making the noises people make when they hear other people believing stupid stuff.  

Yours is a wasted life in service to an invisible sky man that isn't real.  That is the truth.  You should be embarassed by it.  It's the year 2010 for Christ sake.  Wake up.  
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #179 on: August 04, 2010, 10:16:10 PM »
The only part of the bible I've seen that is iffy comes right after "In the beginning" and goes until the end of Revelation.

Other than that it's pretty much perfect.

I have never been able to match the reality ascribed by the bible with the reality I live as a human being. I have never seen any religious group appear to have any sort of advantage over anyone else, be it in health, morality, longevity, peacefulness or even the ability to score higher in WoW.

So even if it were true (and it's not) what would the advantage be? Heaven? A nondescript eternity devoid of any appeal? I don't think so. Hell would be a bitch if it were real. It ain't.

I am an atheist because nothing in my life has ever even hinted at the supernatural, let alone a specific deity. I am without belief.

Sorry I have no silly stories to back up my contentions. I know that makes it hard for you to get a grasp on the concept, BibleStudent. I could make something up, which would be very helpful for you, but it would be a lie, and whether objective or subjective, I don't want to do that.

By the way JeffPT, when is your biography coming out. I'm reading one on Willie Mays right now, but I like to know more about all of my heros. Please advise.





Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #180 on: August 04, 2010, 10:18:36 PM »


Don't mean to tread off topic, but you have to laugh with threads like this and stand back in awe of the simplistic way of thinking still in people.  Threads like this prove to me that evolution of the brain is real (in matter of speaking of course), and that our brains evolved to have that primitve, animalistic instinct in superstition and survival even for the "afterlife" in the early days of man.


But some peoples brains have transcended the chains of primitive ideologies that now serve no real purpose for man's function to survive in 2010 society.  However, if you still live in a cave and don't understand our world and the universe, I can see how you would need the magic and superstition to keep you going to mysteriously improve your odds.


And JeffPT, you are brilliant.... please don't get bored posting in this forum.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #181 on: August 04, 2010, 10:21:22 PM »
Don't think it's real, ask yourself "could this be real". 

<raises hand> Umm... I did that, for what it's worth.

So have I. What this thread doesn’t reveal is just how much time and effort I have invested in making the best possible determinations I could about the subjects being discussed here and in other threads. I work from 8:30-4:30 five days a week. I get up in the morning and spend 1-2 hours every day reading and reviewing material. I normally spend my lunch hour everyday continuing the endeavor. Upon my arrival home for the day, I sometimes spend anywhere from 2-3 more hours gobbling up everything I can find. In addition to that, I frequently spend hours on the weekends consumed by my relentless efforts to satisfy the enormous craving I have had to find the answers. It has been, and continues to be, an obsession.

Despite what some may think, I was not brought up in the Christian environment that so many of the non-theistic discussion boards like to use as a case for the ‘brainwashed’ mentality that controls us theists. It wasn’t until I was 16 years old that I became a Christian.  My parents were not the devout Christians the non-theists would like to think. Regardless, I did have to admit that if I was going to be fair to myself when approaching the entire theist vs. non-theist debate that I would have to make a determined effort to shackle my faith.

I will tell you, very briefly, why I even approached this self imposed challenge. My faith had been subjected to some incredibly trying experiences. Over the course of the last 4-5 years, I have sensed a fading of its influence in my life to the point where I was on the brink of thinking I would have to be done with it. It was making me miserable. It was at that point that I made a conscious decision to validate once and for all whether it was real or imagined. I tend to get beat up in these discussions and criticized and labeled with disrespectful terms and words but, frankly, I could care less. This is MY journey, my endeavor….this is about ME and what I was going to decide. That may sound selfish and disrespectful but I HAD to take that approach out of fairness to myself.

What I can tell you is this. I am not 70% certain of my position. I am not 90% certain. I am unequivocally 100% certain of what I discovered. Right now, I feel better than I can ever remember feeling about the reality of God that I see. Please do not ask me to elaborate on this because I know it will only amount to an endless circle of debate....and since I won't elaborate directly, you asking me and me not responding will only get me in trouble with the mods...so, please don't do it. This commentary is simply a reply to the appeal that I take an unbiased approach to the non-theist viewpoint.

With that being said, if you haven't done so already, I would just like to encourage you, and anyone else up to the challenge, to endeavor to take a neutral approach like I did and locate, examine, and critique every piece of evidentiary material you can get your hands on…..both from a theist standpoint and a non-theist standpoint. Check out every point and counter-point that you can. Be fair to yourself. Be objective. Don’t be so quick to accept what anyone says just because they claim to be a lifelong biologist or an accredited theologian or a high profile geologist or a creationist historian, etc etc. Once you’ve reached a point where you feel committed to the conclusions you have drawn, examine the Biblical account and see if you think it influences your decision…..even if you find yourself continuing to favor a non-theistic belief.

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD” – Jeremiah 29:13-14


Offline Azdgari

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #182 on: August 04, 2010, 10:32:52 PM »
Yes!!! EXACTLY! Thank you! Hit the nail on the head sir. That's what was confusing the hell out of me trying to understand biblestudent's conversational style and mentality... I just couldn't put my finger on it.

The bold part is the nut. Biblestudent, you seem to do that with A LOT of different things. But stuff has different values. A basic concept such as subjective morality is NOT the same as a very specific story, setting, "divine law of the universe".

To all of you holding fast to the position that morality is subjective, please visit the following link.....the article was written by an atheist:

http://www.strongatheism.net/library/philosophy/case_for_objective_morality/

His argument breaks down at about the same point where you ask him why (for example) survival is objectively better than death.  I mean, it's subjectively better, to me and to almost everyone else.  But that's because we have survival instincts.

He assumes several moral values as being objectively true, and then concludes (rightly) that - given those values - a definite system of morality objectively arises.

The problem is that the objectivity of those initial values is the very issue under discussion.  He is engaging in circular reasoning.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #183 on: August 04, 2010, 10:33:49 PM »
Stop saying things like "morality is..."  Morality is a just a word. It doesn't exist as something concrete.

What ? Morality is a word, it is in the dictionary, and can certainly be used in a sentence the way I have used it. My use of the word is a commonly accepted use. Quit the nit-picking vocabulary crap.    

The study proves that generosity (a moral issue to be sure) can be changed via changing the level of a specific compound in the brain.  This is a scientific fact that you can not simply ignore.  If all our levels of generosity were directly from God, would varying the levels of chemicals in the brain be able to change how generous someone was?

Can you establish the correlation between the moral "opinions" you spoke of earlier and this scientific evidence.....that is, if there is a correlation that can even be made.     

Also, with regard to that article from the atheist regarding objective morality.  He is entitled to his belief.  But not for one second, anywhere in his post, does he mention that it comes from some sort of diety.  He has some valid points, but when he talks about values and needs, all humans are different in what they value and need.  I just don't agree with him.  We share a common belief that there is no God, but it goes no further than that.  That's my OPINION.

Cool.

So you see, I don't "believe" in atheism.  You crossed out God and put atheism in there as if it is a "thing" to believe in.  It's not.  I am just making the noises people make when they hear other people believing stupid stuff.  

As I mentioned in a previous post, I realize the wording didn't mesh with the meaning of atheism, but I would like to think you got the point.


Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #184 on: August 04, 2010, 10:44:24 PM »
Don't mean to tread off topic, but you have to laugh with threads like this and stand back in awe of the simplistic way of thinking still in people. 

Actually, not to be a smart a**, but what is discussed and debated on this forum and others is really not a laughing matter at all.



Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #185 on: August 04, 2010, 10:53:17 PM »
With that being said, if you haven't done so already, I would just like to encourage you, and anyone else up to the challenge, to endeavor to take a neutral approach like I did and locate, examine, and critique every piece of evidentiary material you can get your hands on…..both from a theist standpoint and a non-theist standpoint. Check out every point and counter-point that you can. Be fair to yourself. Be objective. Don’t be so quick to accept what anyone says just because they claim to be a lifelong biologist or an accredited theologian or a high profile geologist or a creationist historian, etc etc. Once you’ve reached a point where you feel committed to the conclusions you have drawn, examine the Biblical account and see if you think it influences your decision…..even if you find yourself continuing to favor a non-theistic belief.

It's not Sunday. What are you doing here, preacher?

I have had ample opportunity to question my stance on the bible and religion in general for 47 years and have yet to find one tiny little reason to suspect I am wrong. I am not closed-minded. Rather, I am open to a million ideas. But they have to make sense somewhere alone the line. Expecting me to roll over and play christian based on faith and belief alone won't cut it with some folks here. If there is a god, he made us this way. We're not your problem.

The lack of consistency in christian belief should itself be a dead-giveaway. That no two christians who show up here agree with each other on even some of the most basic of tenets sort of hints at a bunch of folks who hope what they want to be true is true. Persistent personal modification of the perfect word of god fails to garner my trust in the process. The nebulous variety of views on heaven, hell, floods, jesus and whatever that mysterious flying thing that sounds like aliens were around are not the type of following I would expect from something omnipotent. A certain amount of competence is assumed re: supernatural gods, and the one you claim just isn't cutting it.

You're 100% sure there is a god. I'm as close to 100% that there aren't any as my atheist buddies will let me be without tossing me in the looney bin. (Except Jetson, who has an incredibly rational head on his shoulders, since he thinks like me.) How can two humans who speak the same language, have similar life experiences, etc. end up being so far apart?

Someone is being lied to. I'll draw no conclusions publicly, though.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #186 on: August 04, 2010, 10:56:37 PM »
Actually, not to be a smart a**, but what is discussed and debated on this forum and others is really not a laughing matter at all.

You're exactly right "Bible Student".  I think the sad truth is that you will take what is intelligently discussed and debated here by very reasonable, intelligent people, and use it to your advantage in your christian delusion to gather weaker, unintelligent minds for your primitive, selfish cause.

You're obviously not a...

LogicStudent
ReasonStudent
TruthStudent
FactStudent
ScienceStudent
KnowledgeStudent

But I guess that goes without saying....
« Last Edit: August 04, 2010, 11:01:13 PM by DVZ3 »
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #187 on: August 04, 2010, 11:00:50 PM »
Actually, not to be a smart a**, but what is discussed and debated on this forum and others is really not a laughing matter at all.

Sorry 'bout that. It's just that now that you guys aren't burning us at the stake anymore, we're just giddy.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #188 on: August 04, 2010, 11:10:29 PM »
You're exactly right "Bible Student".  I think the sad truth is that you will take what is intelligently discussed and debated here by very reasonable, intelligent people, and use it to your advantage in your christian delusion to gather weaker, unintelligent minds for your primitive, selfish cause.


Are you trying to impress someone....or do you just get orgasmic when you can assemble a coherently absurd rambling ?


Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #189 on: August 04, 2010, 11:12:24 PM »

Better than getting orgasmic for chirst and the afterlife!  Sorry for the absurd rambling, my brain is melting from reading your responses.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #190 on: August 04, 2010, 11:14:38 PM »

Better than getting orgasmic for chirst and the afterlife!  Sorry for the absurd rambling, my brain is melting from reading your responses.

Not surprised. Figured they were probably a little over your head anyway.


Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #191 on: August 04, 2010, 11:19:20 PM »

I've see many of your so-called discusions, and there is no point in trying reason with you.  But I'm glad you sunk down to the level that I was trying to bring you to.  Good job!  You must be in need of some certain chemicals so your morality will kick back up a notch or two.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #192 on: August 04, 2010, 11:25:54 PM »

Better than getting orgasmic for chirst and the afterlife!  Sorry for the absurd rambling, my brain is melting from reading your responses.

Not surprised. Figured they were probably a little over your head anyway.



I'm impressed. You finally said something. It was wrong, but at least it was something.

Note: Taking two minutes to make a snappy comeback sort of dooms you to obscurity.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline roomba

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #193 on: August 04, 2010, 11:28:39 PM »

Better than getting orgasmic for chirst and the afterlife!  Sorry for the absurd rambling, my brain is melting from reading your responses.

Not surprised. Figured they were probably a little over your head anyway.



A wild ego appears!!

Offline DVZ3

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #194 on: August 04, 2010, 11:30:51 PM »

^^^ Who would have thought.  ;)
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Online JeffPT

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #195 on: August 04, 2010, 11:41:09 PM »
So have I. What this thread doesn’t reveal is just how much time and effort I have invested in making the best possible determinations I could about the subjects being discussed here and in other threads. I work from 8:30-4:30 five days a week. I get up in the morning and spend 1-2 hours every day reading and reviewing material. I normally spend my lunch hour everyday continuing the endeavor. Upon my arrival home for the day, I sometimes spend anywhere from 2-3 more hours gobbling up everything I can find. In addition to that, I frequently spend hours on the weekends consumed by my relentless efforts to satisfy the enormous craving I have had to find the answers. It has been, and continues to be, an obsession.

Despite what some may think, I was not brought up in the Christian environment that so many of the non-theistic discussion boards like to use as a case for the ‘brainwashed’ mentality that controls us theists. It wasn’t until I was 16 years old that I became a Christian.  My parents were not the devout Christians the non-theists would like to think. Regardless, I did have to admit that if I was going to be fair to myself when approaching the entire theist vs. non-theist debate that I would have to make a determined effort to shackle my faith.

I will tell you, very briefly, why I even approached this self imposed challenge. My faith had been subjected to some incredibly trying experiences. Over the course of the last 4-5 years, I have sensed a fading of its influence in my life to the point where I was on the brink of thinking I would have to be done with it. It was making me miserable. It was at that point that I made a conscious decision to validate once and for all whether it was real or imagined. I tend to get beat up in these discussions and criticized and labeled with disrespectful terms and words but, frankly, I could care less. This is MY journey, my endeavor….this is about ME and what I was going to decide. That may sound selfish and disrespectful but I HAD to take that approach out of fairness to myself.

What I can tell you is this. I am not 70% certain of my position. I am not 90% certain. I am unequivocally 100% certain of what I discovered. Right now, I feel better than I can ever remember feeling about the reality of God that I see. Please do not ask me to elaborate on this because I know it will only amount to an endless circle of debate....and since I won't elaborate directly, you asking me and me not responding will only get me in trouble with the mods...so, please don't do it. This commentary is simply a reply to the appeal that I take an unbiased approach to the non-theist viewpoint.

With that being said, if you haven't done so already, I would just like to encourage you, and anyone else up to the challenge, to endeavor to take a neutral approach like I did and locate, examine, and critique every piece of evidentiary material you can get your hands on…..both from a theist standpoint and a non-theist standpoint. Check out every point and counter-point that you can. Be fair to yourself. Be objective. Don’t be so quick to accept what anyone says just because they claim to be a lifelong biologist or an accredited theologian or a high profile geologist or a creationist historian, etc etc. Once you’ve reached a point where you feel committed to the conclusions you have drawn, examine the Biblical account and see if you think it influences your decision…..even if you find yourself continuing to favor a non-theistic belief.

“You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. I will be found by you, declares the LORD” – Jeremiah 29:13-14

A try at honesty..  MUCH MUCH better Biblestudent.  Much better. 

Ok, this is fair.  You are 100% sure of your position and so am I.  You base that on your life and your experiences.  So do I.  The approach I took was much the same as yours.  And I came out with the opposite conclusion.  I don't see how it's possible to do what you say you did and come out with your belief intact without FIRST believing that God is real.  Did you simply ignore the things that didn't make any sense or fit with reality?  Because there are lots of them. 

If you really want to claim that you took an unbiased look at your religion, then I have to ask you... How do you get past the idea of talking snakes, unicorns, dragons, giants, jewish zombies, people surviving in fish for days and all the other things you find in the bible that make no sense, if you are really, seriously using reason and logic to determine truth?  Is there any other book that you have read in your life that had talking animals in it that was compelling to believe when you read it?  The only possible way you can get past those things is if you already believed in God prior to reading it.  Belief in God is a prerequisite for believing in things that your logic and reason will tell you are false.   It is utterly impossible to conclude that the bible is truth if you are looking at it logically and rationally.  Your every day experiences scream at you that talking animals are not real.  That dragons are not real.  That people can't live inside fish.  That when people die, they don't rise from the dead 3 days later.  That nobody knows what happens after we die because nobody has been there and come back.  How do you get past all that without first believing in God? 

But there are 2 lines of what you posted that are very telling....

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Please do not ask me to elaborate on this because I know it will only amount to an endless circle of debate....and since I won't elaborate directly, you asking me and me not responding will only get me in trouble with the mods...so, please don't do it.
and
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I have sensed a fading of its influence in my life to the point where I was on the brink of thinking I would have to be done with it. It was making me miserable.

First: You have to understand, we get the "I can't tell you what it is" all the time.  You won't tell us because you know we won't believe it as evidence, right?  If you couldn't convince us based on your experience, then why does the experience convince you?  If it was fool proof evidence, then I would really like to hear it.  I believe I looked very hard and with a critical eye during all the time I spent looking for the truth behind religions.  I concluded that talking snakes were most likely not real.  I concluded that people can't turn water into wine.  I concluded that leprosy is not cured by the methods approved of in the bible.  I concluded that Mohammad did not fly to heaven on a winged horse.  Those are logical assessments of the claims in religious books made from an unbiased standpoint and the reality of the world I have lived in for the past 30+ years.  It is the same assessment I would use to evaluate the book "Charlotte's Web" for truth.  Talking animals are not real, so it is most likely that "Charlotte's Web" is fiction.  The bible is just a book.  It deserves the EXACT same skepticism as "Charlotte's Web".  The minute you hold back your skepticism when you review ANY book, you are no longer looking for truth... you are only looking to confirm what you want to believe.  The minute you allow yourself to believe in an invisible sky person that can do anything, then of course anything is possible!  Talking pigs, and spiders are also possible if you believe in God.  All religions are perpetuated that way.  The question then becomes, what evidence is there for that particular sky person?  Hmm, none.     

My final question to myself was this... is it more likely that these things were all made up by people who didn't know much about the world, or is it more likely that all of it is true.  Well, from everything we know about extraordinary claims, they require extraordinary evidence.  If you are going to tell me there is a giant pink rabbit behind me, then you better back it up... especially since when I turn around, I don't see anything.  We also know that people lie... a lot.  We also know that there have been literally thousands of different religions throughout the history of time and they can't all be right.  The evidence for talking snakes, the resurrection, all of it is non-existant.  Your honest look at religion would have revealed that to you if you really did what you said.  There is no other place outside the bible that makes the claim that Jesus was crucified and rose from the dead 3 days later that was written within 100 years of his death.  And the original claim isn't even from someone who SAW it.  It was second hand information! Therefore it is most logical to conclude that none of it is true.  Can you please tell me where that logic breaks down?  From a purely logical standpoint, the idea that all of it is true, is lunacy.  It is far more logical to think that they made it all up, just like E.B. White made up "Charlotte's Web". Can you tell me with a straight face, that if you read the bible story in any location besides "the bible", you would believe it?     

Second: You said it yourself... You were miserable when you were without your faith.  When someone is in that state of mind, they are vulnerable to something... anything making a positive impact on their faith.  Those "trying" experiences you had, you never let them lead you in the direction that they were taking you.  It sounds like you fought them tooth and nail.   You likely brushed aside all the things continued to lead you away from your faith and put a heightened sense of priority on things that helped to validate your faith (be them real or imagined).  The reason you were miserable probably had a lot to do with the realization that what you believed was false (why else would you have been miserable?)  If you had just let yourself embrace truth, no matter how miserable it made you feel, you would have come out the other side a better, stronger person.  But instead it seems you let some experience pull you back in because it was easier to embrace the fantasy than accept the reality.   

If you have overwhelming evidence that convinced you, then you should share it with all of us.  If there is a Christian God, I want to know.  One of us is right, and the other is wrong, yet both of us are 100% sure of our positions.  Let's face it, you don't have logic and reason (the normal way you decide between true and false) on your side.  So the evidence you have is something you should share, and it should convince us beyond any doubt that we are wrong, right? 

Otherwise, we all understand that the reason you hide it from us is because you know we can (and will) poke giant holes in it.   

Did you read any of the 50 proofs of this website?  How do you respond to all of them?  Hell, how do you respond to even 1 of them?  They are dead-on accurate. 

Finally, regarding that bible quote you put up... think about it.  "Seek and you shall find".  What happens when you don't find it?  The religious solution?  You aren't looking hard enough... you don't have enough faith.  It tells the person "if you don't find it, you aren't using your whole heart."  So what are the possible outcomes?  Either you find God, or you have to keep looking harder.  It is not a situation that allows for someone to embrace the truth that no matter how hard you search, it's not really there.  A Christian can never conclude that.  They will either find God, or die trying to find God.  Well, I didn't fall for that trick.  When I seeked God, he wasn't there.  It wasn't like I was angry, or upset at God.  I just found him to be non-existant.  It was just more validation that it's all fake. 

Can you, in all honesty, provide 1 single logical, reasonable and compelling argument that would make someone like me reconsider my position?  And remember, I have no faith, and I think the bible is all false, so you can't really use bible quotes... but I am open to you proving I am wrong using reason, logic and evidence.  Go for it.     
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Offline jetson

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #196 on: August 04, 2010, 11:42:42 PM »
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Except Jetson, who has an incredibly rational head on his shoulders, since he thinks like me.

That just brought a small tear to my left eye...   :(

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #197 on: August 04, 2010, 11:51:08 PM »
Can you establish the correlation between the moral "opinions" you spoke of earlier and this scientific evidence.....that is, if there is a correlation that can even be made.     

Do you consider generosity to be a moral issue? 

Someone's generosity (or their opinion that they should be more generous toward another person) will change with the simple addition of oxytocin.  That is the correlation that can be made.  Are you intentionally being blind to that?  What part of that is difficult to understand? 

If you can change someone's desire to be generous toward another person with a simple addition of a chemical, then how can you say that morality is even remotely objective?  It's simply not possible to claim it.   
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Wootah

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #198 on: August 05, 2010, 03:47:56 AM »
Do you consider generosity to be a moral issue? 

Someone's generosity (or their opinion that they should be more generous toward another person) will change with the simple addition of oxytocin.  That is the correlation that can be made.  Are you intentionally being blind to that?  What part of that is difficult to understand? 

If you can change someone's desire to be generous toward another person with a simple addition of a chemical, then how can you say that morality is even remotely objective?  It's simply not possible to claim it.   

Jeff don't worry about a chemical. Basically even a well fed person is more generous with their left overs and so on. Or another thing you could argue is that a person high on drugs is often different to one that isn't. A person still chooses to be generous or not even if a chemical or circumstance influences that choice.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #199 on: August 05, 2010, 08:02:14 AM »
Despite what some may think, I was not brought up in the Christian environment that so many of the non-theistic discussion boards like to use as a case for the ‘brainwashed’ mentality that controls us theists. It wasn’t until I was 16 years old that I became a Christian.  My parents were not the devout Christians the non-theists would like to think. Regardless, I did have to admit that if I was going to be fair to myself when approaching the entire theist vs. non-theist debate that I would have to make a determined effort to shackle my faith.

If you were raised in the USA, you were brought up in a xian environment.  xianity is so deeply ingrained in the culture, most people do not even recognize it when they see it.  For example, the idea that male frontal nudity is so horrifically offensive that it cannot be exposed in public or shown in movies.  Do you take that for granted or have you questioned just what the ruckus is about?  That is xianity at work. The Romans used to celebrate a holiday called Saturnalia.  They'd get roaring drunk and go caroling naked around the city.  When the xians got control of things, they coopted this holiday and called it "Christmas".  Now it is much less fun.

I think the idea that genitalia are taboo is crazy.  Imagine if someone said elbows are "dirty" and should not be shown in public.  It has gotten so bad, people don't even want animals to be depicted accurately.  Insanity.  Funny how that rhymes with "xianity".


In addition, you speak as if xianity is the only form of theism.  "...when approaching the entire theist vs. non-theist debate..."  Did you seriously consider Hinduism as a viable option?  Zoroastrianism?  Or did you really only consider some flavor of xianity?  If so, that exemplifies the built in cultural bias.   
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Offline penkie

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #200 on: August 05, 2010, 08:15:29 AM »
I think the idea that genitalia are taboo is crazy.  Imagine if someone said elbows are "dirty" and should not be shown in public.  It has gotten so bad, people don't even want animals to be depicted accurately.  Insanity.  Funny how that rhymes with "xianity".

I also never understood that. It's natural. But this taboo is everywhere, even more hysteric in Moslim culture as it is in Christian.

Things are a bit looser around here than in the US. Most people here laughed about the fuss around the Hot Coffee controversy and Nipplegate.  Those controversies were truly ridiculous.
But even though less strict, most people hold similar values about the shamefulness of nudity. How screwed up are things when the most natural thing in the world that everyone participates in, sex, is mostly forbidden in e.g. video games, while the most barbaric cruel violence possible is totally fine? It blows my mind.
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Offline BibleStudent

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #201 on: August 05, 2010, 09:59:33 AM »
Do you consider generosity to be a moral issue?  

Someone's generosity (or their opinion that they should be more generous toward another person) will change with the simple addition of oxytocin.  That is the correlation that can be made.  Are you intentionally being blind to that?  What part of that is difficult to understand?

Okay. Thanks. I just wanted to make sure I was following you. If there is one thing that I have learned, the theist can quickly become a target for ridicule in these discussions when they respond to something without having a proper understanding of the proposition.

By the way, yes, generosity is a ‘moral’ expression.

If you can change someone's desire to be generous toward another person with a simple addition of a chemical, then how can you say that morality is even remotely objective?  It's simply not possible to claim it.  

Well, where did the inclination to be generous come from in the first place....and, please, provide some science or fact or knowledge to support your claim.


edit: chopped a hunk of commentary out. When I revisited this post, I found it to be too wordy and even I was having difficulty understanding it. Will try to assemble some comments that more clearly make the point I want to make.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:59:10 AM by BibleStudent »

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Re: "...Except when my God is involved"
« Reply #202 on: August 05, 2010, 10:14:11 AM »
Screw's penis-based argumentation is always interesting.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.