Poll

Do you think the question "Why won't God heal amputees?" is a good argument against God's existence?

Yes.  If your god is real, why is He so hard to find?
20 (66.7%)
Yes.  Although it is not, in itself, compelling.  It's just a catchy Web Site name to help believers like you come to their senses.
5 (16.7%)
Maybe, but it tends to trivialize the issue.
3 (10%)
No.  It is clever, but nonsensical.  One might as well as "Why doesn't God grow more arms on me?"
2 (6.7%)
No.  I'm amazed that somebody would think it is clever.  It is a banal rehash of arguments long ago refuted.
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: July 10, 2010, 10:37:50 AM

Author Topic: A Believer's Question  (Read 7947 times)

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Offline Mostly Harmless

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A Believer's Question
« on: July 05, 2010, 10:37:50 AM »
As I've thought about this web site, I've wondered how most people here view this question.  In order to be fair, I'll post my own vote later.  I'm mainly interested in the thoughts of people who visit web sites like this. 

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2010, 10:48:49 AM »
The question is asking why god wont do something completely obvious like grow an amputee's arm back when they pray, yet at the same time billions of people pray for things and believe they are having their prayers answered.

Here's what member Hermes has to say about it. I think he summarized it very well;


The intent of the videos is to lay out the facts quickly, and offer a conclusion that is consistent with those facts.  The other resources such as the forums and the web site book are available to flesh out those facts.

Behind the question "Why Won't God Heal Amputees?" is this;

Is the Christian Bible reliable as a guide to reality?

From that, as the investigation given in the videos and the other more detailed resources show, we get to the clear conclusion that it is not.  As such, one of the conclusions is that the deity Yahweh of the Christian Bible is imaginary.

I realize that conclusion may seem like a stretch to you, but let's take the first part first;

Is the Christian Bible reliable as a guide to reality?

To draw out that main question -- is the Bible reliable -- the videos focus on the Why won't God heal amputees? question, though it can be seen in different ways.  For example;

Why won't the Christian deity Yahwey/Jesus restore the limbs of amputees or perform other unambiguous miracles here and now?

... or ...

If the Bible is correct,
amputees getting restored limbs
and other supernatural miracles
should be as plentiful as confetti
on the sidewalk after a parade.

A look at reality shows this is not the case,
thus the Bible and any conclusions in it
can not be used as a reliable guide to reality.

Yet, that's a conclusion.  An assertion.  One that I think is well supported, but you may disagree in part or in whole or depending on the context.

So, why do I say the Bible is unreliable?  The basics are simple;

1. The Christian Bible has promises in it.

2. The promises are said to be kept in ambiguous situations; found keys, cancer remissions, ... .

3. The promises are not kept in unambiguous situations, such as but not limited to amputees.

What promises?  The web site's author mentions some of them;

Quote
You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith" or "God's existence". What we are talking about here is the basic human ability to process factual information. Jesus makes a number of promises about prayer in the Bible:

    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

    * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

    * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

    * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

    * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

Are Jesus' promises true or false? By looking at amputees we can see that they are false. Jesus/God never answer prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite the promises in the Bible.

If you are a believer, and if this is the first time you have thought about the situation faced by amputees seriously, you may have a set of rationalizations and excuses swirling through your head right now.

So, what can we say is possible based on comparing the promises made in the Christian Bible to the what we see in reality?  A few potential conclusions come to mind;

1. The book is wrong, but the Christian deity Yahweh exists.

2. The book was right, but the Christian deity Yahweh no longer honors the book though it could.

3. The book was right, but the Christian deity Yahweh no longer honors the book because it can't.

4. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because the Christian deity Yahweh doesn't exist.

5. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because some other deity or deities exist, not the Christian one, and that deity or deities don't honor what they did not sign up for.

6. The book is not relevant to the questions it raises because some other deity or deities exist, not the Christian one, and that deity or deities do honor similar promises to those who pray to them or offer some other communication or gift as a bribe for the miracle.  (Example: Hindu miracles.)

I'm going with #4.  What about you?
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Offline Mostly Harmless

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2010, 10:56:45 AM »
Hmmmm...

You didn't seem to vote.  
Is it because you don't like all the choices on my list?  I tried to be fair.  

Is it possible that somebody may not like all the choices on Hermes' list?  Do they seem fair to you?  

======

By the way, thank you for taking the time to respond and to share some interesting and helpful thoughts.  So often in these forums, I tend to jump in and comment upon the things with which I disagree; and I fail to acknowledge points with which I agree and (more egregious still) attitudes of generosity and helpfulness.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2010, 11:02:30 AM by Mostly Harmless »

Offline wright

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2010, 12:37:07 PM »
The basic premise is a good argument against the god of the Bible, certainly. When believers in Biblegod try to refute it, all they can offer (from what I've seen so far) are increasingly convoluted rationalizations.
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Offline Nick

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2010, 01:18:16 PM »
The question goes right to the heart of the whole thing.  This God can do anything (He cures cancer, fixed ballgames, appears on toast...just to mention a very few) yet He cannot cure an amputee or won't.  Why is that?  (a) He hates them, (b) we might see the man behind the curtain, (c) there is no God.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Positiveaob

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2010, 01:38:06 PM »
Yes, I'd say it gets right to the heart of the matter.  And Ive never heard anything close to a rational response from theists.
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Online jetson

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2010, 01:43:39 PM »
God cannot heal amputees.
God will not heal amputees.
God is imaginary.


I'll go with number three in the list above.

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2010, 05:08:35 PM »
Hmmmm...

You didn't seem to vote.

Sorry, I was in a hurry and simply posted and forgot to vote.

  
Quote
Is it possible that somebody may not like all the choices on Hermes' list?  Do they seem fair to you?  

People have tried to argue Hermes post. To me his post seems to hit all corners. There might be some that don't
think it's fair but it's not up to me to make corrections to it.

This is a god that people claim has created the universe and everything in it. This same god even created humans in his own image and likeness, according to Genesis. This is the same god that sent his son redeemer of the world and that same son said;

Quote
    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

              * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

              * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

              * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

              * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]
Code: [Select]

Believers when they are sick will pray to get healed. When they get healed they thank god for answering their prayers. When believers go into surgery they pray for protection, and when they come out of surgery feel that god protected them, when he probably didn't protect them at all - that person just had surgeons that have had years of med school and years of experience. But god has never once gave an amputee a new limb. It can be said that no amputee has ever prayed for one, but still some believers pray for the lost, the homeless, starving, all of which probably don't believe or have never heard of Jesus, but when they people get fed, given a home or whatever it's like, "Oh, God has heard my prayer".

If God exists he would be able to give an amputee a new limb. But he hasn't. I wonder why? It's probably because he's imaginary.
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Offline Mostly Harmless

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2010, 08:23:43 PM »
Thank you, once again, for your thoughtful reply. 

Quote
    * If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

              * If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

              * Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

              * Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

              * Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]
Code: [Select]

Believers when they are sick will pray to get healed. When they get healed they thank god for answering their prayers. When believers go into surgery they pray for protection, and when they come out of surgery feel that god protected them, when he probably didn't protect them at all - that person just had surgeons that have had years of med school and years of experience. But god has never once gave an amputee a new limb. It can be said that no amputee has ever prayed for one, but still some believers pray for the lost, the homeless, starving, all of which probably don't believe or have never heard of Jesus, but when they people get fed, given a home or whatever it's like, "Oh, God has heard my prayer".

If God exists he would be able to give an amputee a new limb. But he hasn't. I wonder why? It's probably because he's imaginary.

OK.  Now I have two questions, a comment, and another question:
1. Do you think the five references quoted by Hermes are exhaustive on the subject of prayer as discussed or described in the Bible?  Do you think they are exhaustive with respect to Jesus' teachings and behavior with respect to prayer?

2. Comment.  I am sympathetic to your point about people presuming their prayers were answered based on some outcome or other.  I am a believer; but I would not use that as evidence for God's existence.  On the other hand, that leaves me with a dilemma.  What if God really did answer the prayer and my failing to acknowledge it amounts to ingratitude?  Do I thank Him just in case?   ;)   (BTW, that's not a question for you.  It's my problem.)

3. You said, "If God exists he would be able to give an amputee a new limb. But he hasn't. I wonder why? It's probably because he's imaginary."

Hmmmmm...
Amputees do not get their limbs back, ergo God is imaginary. 

Can you understand why I might think you are jumping to a conclusion here?   :)

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2010, 09:00:10 PM »
OK.  Now I have two questions, a comment, and another question:
1. Do you think the five references quoted by Hermes are exhaustive on the subject of prayer as discussed or described in the Bible?  Do you think they are exhaustive with respect to Jesus' teachings and behavior with respect to prayer?

Based on the subject of getting what is prayed for I think the quotes mentioned are enough. 


Quote
3. You said, "If God exists he would be able to give an amputee a new limb. But he hasn't. I wonder why? It's probably because he's imaginary."

Hmmmmm...
Amputees do not get their limbs back, ergo God is imaginary. 

Can you understand why I might think you are jumping to a conclusion here?   :)

While I said "God is imaginary" since my post was on the topic of biblegod I was referring to him being imaginary. There are other aspects of the bible which leads me to conclude he's imaginary. (I base this on my own upbringing, from a creationist/fundie family).

Also I said 'probably' There might be a god, idk... But the god of the bible seems to be non-existent. I base this not on this web site's message.
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Offline Mostly Harmless

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2010, 09:26:26 PM »

Based on the subject of getting what is prayed for I think the quotes mentioned are enough. 

Really?  No qualification at all to Hermes list?  That's it? 







Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2010, 09:31:19 PM »

Really?  No qualification at all to Hermes list?  That's it? 

What qualifications are you looking for?
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Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2010, 09:48:01 PM »
The only logical end of this question is to demonstrate that: If God exists according to the bible, then the god of the bible might be a jerk.

It does nothing to falsify the God of the Bible (Seeing as how the question assumes him in the first place): that requires more than rhetorical devices.

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Offline youforgotsomethings

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2010, 02:24:02 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy. Where someone assumes that since some of the people of something are a certain way, all the rest of the people are too. Like if someone assumes that since all the lawyers they've ever met are money leeches, then all lawyers are money leeches. But they can't assume that unless they have examined every single lawyer in the world.

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2010, 02:28:36 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed?

If such a thing happened how the website is asking it too (grow back) logically speaking it would make headlines and spread all around the world. There's be pictures, news reports, doctor's reports, etc. 
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Offline Dante

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2010, 02:29:21 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy. Where someone assumes that since some of the people of something are a certain way, all the rest of the people are too. Like if someone assumes that since all the lawyers they've ever met are money leeches, then all lawyers are money leeches. But they can't assume that unless they have examined every single lawyer in the world.

I'v met lawyers who were money leeches, and I've read documented, verified 3rd party proof of lawyers who were leeches. Yet, I've never seen the above criteria met for an ex-amputee.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Witch

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2010, 02:49:23 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy.

Has anyone researched every single drop of water on earth to see if it freezes at 0C?

You are making a fallacious appeal to to a fallacy of logic which doesn't apply here.

The part to whole fallacy requires at least one observed instance that can be erroneously transferred to the group. For example

1. Johnny has brown hair

2. Johnny is human

therefore

3. All humans have brown hair.

Please note that in the example there is an observed instance which has been erroneously transferred from the individual to the part to the whole.

If no one had ever objectively observed any instance of brown hair among humans, despite ample opportunity and the observation of billions of instances, one could reasonably conclude that statistically, humans don't have brown hair. That would not be a part to whole fallacy, it would be a reasonable conclusion based on the preponderance of objective evidence.

Thus the conclusion that God doesn't heal amputees because none has ever been observed to have been healed, despite the objective observation of millions of amputees, is a reasonable one, despite your erroneous appeal to a logic you apparently don't understand.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 02:52:14 PM by Witch »

Offline Serak

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2010, 02:53:35 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy. Where someone assumes that since some of the people of something are a certain way, all the rest of the people are too. Like if someone assumes that since all the lawyers they've ever met are money leeches, then all lawyers are money leeches. But they can't assume that unless they have examined every single lawyer in the world.

Ignoring the impracticality of this I'll cut right to the chase: Although we have not asked every single amputee in the history of the Earth does not discredit the position. Have you tested a car in every single part of the Universe to verify that cars actually work? Have you personally interviewed every supposed prophet and messiah to make sure they were illegitamate? You can't assume you're correct about whatever prophet or messiah you do or do not subscribe to until you do that. You cannot say with certainty that automobile technology works until you test it in every possible situation this Universe has to offer.

At the end of the day: Dante and Emily's points stand. Although we haven't gone over every single possible amputee we can reasonably assume that such spontaneous regeneration would make the news now, or have been a big event if it occured in the past. Enough to leave historical records. You know, like the various wars and stuff that occured left records in various forms?

If you disagree, book a ride to the Outer Rim of the Universe to test your car.

Offline youforgotsomethings

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2010, 03:05:56 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy.

Has anyone researched every single drop of water on earth to see if it freezes at 0C?

You are making a fallacious appeal to to a fallacy of logic which doesn't apply here.

Ther part to whole fallacy requires at least one observed instance that can be erroneously transferred to the group. For example

1. Johnny has brown hair

2. Johhny is human

therefore

3. All humans have brown hair.

Please not that in the example tere is an observed instance which has been erroneously transferred from the individual to the part to the whole.

If no one had ever objectively observed any instance of brown hair among humans, despite ample opportunity and the observation of billions of instances, one could reasonable conclude that statistically, humans don't have brown hair. That would not be a part to whole fallacy, it would be a reasonable conclusion based on the preponderance of objective evidence.

Thus the conclusion that God doesn't heal amputees because none has ever been observed to have been healed, despite the objective observation of millions of amputees, is a reasonable one, despite your erroneous appeal to a logic you apparently don't understand.


Are humans the same as drops of water? No. Drops of water are the same all over the earth. But each human is different. Genetically, mentally, and spiritually. A guy down the street with a missing leg is not the same as a girl with the missing hand who lived in ancient Israel 3000 years ago. Perhaps that girl had more faith, and was healed.

You have to understand. There could always be one instance where it is different. Consider this example from Chapter 5 of Why Won't God Heal Amputees?:

"A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal."

You could assume from this that since "No human had ever survived this disease without being vaccinated" Jeanna would die. However, "Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine."

Sometimes looking at the majority and assuming something about the whole doesn't always work.

Offline Witch

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2010, 03:14:59 PM »
Taking a scientific advancement that allowed the curing of a previously incurable condition and comparing it to supernatural healing of lost limbs is even more ridiculous.

You are missing the point, and I believe you are doing so willfully.

Drops of water are individual instances with a single quality that can be measured for the phenomena we are seeking to quantify. The freezing pont of water.

Humans with missing limbs are individual instances with a single quality that can be measured for the phenomena we are seeking to quantify. The replacement of missing limbs by God.

If you claim that we must know every single amputee in order to reasonably conclude that God doesn't replace limbs, then you have to apply the same criteria to the freezing point of water, or any other phenomena in nature, for that matter.

Offline youforgotsomethings

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #20 on: July 08, 2010, 03:16:39 PM »
Has anyone researched every single person in the history of the earth who has ever lost a limb to see whether or not their amputated limb was ever healed? 'Cause if they haven't...well, it's called a part-to-whole fallacy. Where someone assumes that since some of the people of something are a certain way, all the rest of the people are too. Like if someone assumes that since all the lawyers they've ever met are money leeches, then all lawyers are money leeches. But they can't assume that unless they have examined every single lawyer in the world.

Ignoring the impracticality of this I'll cut right to the chase: Although we have not asked every single amputee in the history of the Earth does not discredit the position. Have you tested a car in every single part of the Universe to verify that cars actually work? Have you personally interviewed every supposed prophet and messiah to make sure they were illegitamate? You can't assume you're correct about whatever prophet or messiah you do or do not subscribe to until you do that. You cannot say with certainty that automobile technology works until you test it in every possible situation this Universe has to offer.

At the end of the day: Dante and Emily's points stand. Although we haven't gone over every single possible amputee we can reasonably assume that such spontaneous regeneration would make the news now, or have been a big event if it occured in the past. Enough to leave historical records. You know, like the various wars and stuff that occured left records in various forms?

If you disagree, book a ride to the Outer Rim of the Universe to test your car.

No, I haven't. And that's why you don't see me saying "All cars on earth work" or "All prophets and messiahs are illegitimate." If I was saying that, then you would be free to get on my case about it. For all I know, there could be one car that doesn't work or one prophet or messiah who is legitimate.

If it had left a record, would you believe it? We have records of other just as miraculous events. But you refute it and say it's nothing more than fiction. And maybe it did happen. After all, John 21:25 says, "Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written."
How do you know that the amputee's miraculous healing was not included in the other things that Jesus did?

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #21 on: July 08, 2010, 03:20:49 PM »

How do you know that the amputee's miraculous healing was not included in the other things that Jesus did?


Except in the garden of Gethsemane in Luke 22:47-51. He did heal an amputee.
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Offline youforgotsomethings

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2010, 03:21:39 PM »
Taking a scientific advancement that allowed the curing of a previously incurable condition and comparing it to supernatural healing of lost limbs is even more ridiculous.

You are missing the point, and I believe you are doing so willfully.

Drops of water are individual instances with a single quality that can be measured for the phenomena we are seeking to quantify. The freezing pont of water.

Humans with missing limbs are individual instances with a single quality that can be measured for the phenomena we are seeking to quantify. The replacement of missing limbs by God.

If you claim that we must know every single amputee in order to reasonably conclude that God doesn't replace limbs, then you have to apply the same criteria to the freezing point of water, or any other phenomena in nature, for that matter.

I'm sorry, I left out some things. I didn't want to take up too much space. Oh, well...here's what I left out. "The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought. A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal. According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her. And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine. Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them."

The healing is by faith in God. Not all people have the same amount of faith in God. I have more faith than you do. That's how we are different from water drops. Water drops don't have to believe they will freeze in order to freeze.

Offline youforgotsomethings

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #23 on: July 08, 2010, 03:22:54 PM »

How do you know that the amputee's miraculous healing was not included in the other things that Jesus did?


Except in the garden of Gethsemane in Luke 22:47-51. He did heal an amputee.

Ok, you got me, yes I did forget about that instance. So, you see, we do have a record. Will you believe it?

Offline Emily

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #24 on: July 08, 2010, 03:23:38 PM »
Ok, you got me, yes I did forget about that instance. So, you see, we do have a record. Will you believe it?

Except the bible is not historical. It's a story book. This event never happened.
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Offline Dante

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #25 on: July 08, 2010, 03:24:53 PM »
First, cite your legitimate source for the rabies case.

Second, the bible isnt a legitimate source for god healing amputees, so dont use that.

The point is: your god heals the sick "all the time", right? Why hasn't he healed an amputee lately? Because there hasn't been one amputee in the last century that had enough faith? Really?

Agh, kids.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 03:26:57 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Nam

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #26 on: July 08, 2010, 03:32:26 PM »
OP:

I don't think it's an argument at all.  I think it's a question designed to open a debate between two sets of people: the person(s) asking the question, and the person(s) reading the question (no matter who they are, and what they believe or do not believe).

A question is not an argument; it's just a question.  It's a starting point.  The argument lies between the answers given by the ones who read the question.

So, your question is flawed, in such regard.

P.S.

I didn't vote in your poll since I find it flawed.


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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #27 on: July 08, 2010, 03:32:39 PM »
OK.  Now I have two questions, a comment, and another question:
1. Do you think the five references quoted by Hermes are exhaustive on the subject of prayer as discussed or described in the Bible?  Do you think they are exhaustive with respect to Jesus' teachings and behavior with respect to prayer?

I hope you don't mind if I jump in.  I do not think Hermes' quotes are exhaustive.  But, anything else would be a contradiction.


Amputees do not get their limbs back, ergo God is imaginary. 

A specific kind of god is imaginary.  The argument is not meant for all gods.  It is meaningless with regard to Zeus, since Zeus was not big on healing.  It is similarly impotent when speaking of C'thulu, Yog Shagoth or any of the other Old Ones.  This argument is made for a particular kind of god that exists in particular xians' minds. 

These particular xians often point out mysteriously healed ailments[1] and give credit to their version of yhwh.  However, it is evident that only certain kinds of ailments are ever healed in that way.  Severed limbs never regrow.  Dementia or Alsheimers never abate.  Retards never "detard".  That means something. 

If you still want to argue that all those other afflictions were healed by yhwh, then you have some explaining to do.  Why not amputees?  Why not the elderly?  Why not retards?  If you want to back pedal and agree that all those other ailments were not miraculous, divine intervention, great.  That knocks a leg out from under you justification for the existence of yhwh, and you have some explaining to do. 

So the question itself does not eliminate the possibility of god.  It is not supposed to.  It is meant to force believers to think critically, something they are unaccustomed to doing.
 1. sometimes not so mysteriously healed too.  If you press them hard enough, it turns out the patient received antibiotics, medication, CPR, etc.  Praise medicine, not jesus H.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A Believer's Question
« Reply #28 on: July 08, 2010, 03:41:38 PM »
Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine. Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them."

Man, you are gullible. I've heard of someone surviving rabies, but it was not through the power of prayer.  It was a different technique tried by doctors.  They essentially put the patient into an induced coma until the virus ran its course.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-08-29-rabies-survivor_N.htm


No, I haven't.

Okay, kid.  Let's get to the heart of it then.  Provide evidence that an amputee's limb was regenerated by the god formerly known as yhwh.  This is not about whether your puny, iron age god could do something, or possibly has but it went undocumented.  Does it happen or not?  If it does, put up.  Do we ever find cases of re-grown limbs - like we doe spontaneous remission of tumors, etc.  If not, stfu.
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.