Christianos, let's talk. Why do you believe? Commentary thread

[Mims]

Why do I believe? Assuming that you assume i really do believe, right?

I use to think a lot. I have been a Christian.... from family roots. But no, that's somewhat incorrect, I do not believe one is a Christian from birth. I did get pushed to simply believe, but i did not. I explored a little bit, and argued as much as I could about the idea of a God. I like to think that there is no logical doubt that someone has thought up that I have not, and yet, here I am now.

A series of thoughts led me to accepting Christ.
Of course, it starts with the thought that there is no God. Therefore, in really simplified terms, there is nothing. There is no aim. There is no meaning. We are all just animals. But you all know that already. (sorry i'm 45minutes new to this forum).

Ok, another thing to keep in mind, I perceive everything as a whole. So.. the bible, i believe, cannot be cut up into bits to describe one aspect of existence. In the same way, not just one factor of life (not including biblical evidence) is enough to explain one thing. THere are a lot of factors.

First factor is that everyone has a different definition for everything.

Now define love. Because that "sums up the laws" (quoted from bible from somewhere). So i thought about love a lot... What the crap was it. ANd a "Loving God" and Jesus' only commandment was to 1) Love God and 2) Love people, and that was it.

So i thought: IF God were to be real... so He's this eternal being that's lasted forever and He was hovering in the blackness of space and thinking and attaining immeasurable wisdom. Why did he create people? or other eternal beings? Well, take it this way: if there is a tree in the middle of a forest and it falls down and noone was around, did the tree make a sound? If there is a God hovering in the middle of space all alone and noone else was there, is there really a God?

Another factor to that is, well, I thought: IF i were God, I would think: what's the point in all this. What's the point in existence? What's the point of going on and on and on and on over eternity and eternity? What's it all to KEEP IT TO MYSELF. And so, in a really abstract way, thats what love is (the opposite of that.) LOVE = TO GIVE EVERYTHING, because there is simply no point (God or no God) to keep it all to yourself. THere isn't. You atheists know it. It won't satisfy. And IF you were to say that GOd did not exist after my rant, surely you cannot deny that this definition of Love is Gold.

God of course, had done that, somewhat, with Jesus, who existed before creation (reference Genisis 1 verse 26 i believe?) but they were sort of one-body, something which i may not be able to fully understand unless I ask God himself (and again putting it to your terms: IF he were real and people could meet him after they passed away from this earth). But they (God and Jesus, being One) decided to make us. The human. At least, that was my THOUGHT. But then I asked: well, we couldn't possibly just be made to HAVE to love him (rephrased to: HAVE to give him everything). Otherwise we would all be like drones. We would all have no other choice but to give him everything and God would always win. Would that be fair? No... That would be just as meaningless as continuing to exist forever with no meaning or nothing to give oneself to.

So God gave free will. And this is how we turned out.

And i thought all this SEPARATE to the ideas of the Bible. All these thoughts came out of my own logical reasoning (you see, i thought these thoughts without taking much account to the Bible, knowing that it could all potentially be false).

And then I started to actually look at the bloody book. And it fit perfectly to how this reasoning of "IF GOD WERE REAL" works. The definition of love fits. Jesus fits. And to think that it is all meticulously played out over the course of AT LEAST 6000years and the story all flows and all the writers support each other even millenniums after one another... When it was that personal, when it was my own intellect and thought patterns being linked up to this God... that's when I knew it was real.

I know there are holes. And you will probably criticise me on them later (but PLEASE don't quarrel with me about English terms being used. If you understand what's being said, if you understand the concept, argue THAT, but not the freacking english words that are used). But those are what i believe to little things that God hasnt shown me the answers to (faith kicks in here... not at the start though, but here).

I like this question though. Because you can't tell me I'm wrong. Because it's what I (emphasis on "I") believe in.

[screwtape]

Mims,

I split your post from the original thread because this is a debate room.  The debate room is for two people to either discuss a topic or debate a topic one on one.  As such, it is not open to other members wandering in and joining without express invitation.

If the participants would like you to join the conversation, I will move your post back. If not, please consider this to be the "commentary" thread where anyone is free to comment on the debate.  

Since you are new, I invite you to read the rules in the general debate area. Here.

Thank you for your cooperation

Your affectionate uncle
~ Screwtape

[Aaron123]

And then I started to actually look at the bloody book. And it fit perfectly to how this reasoning of "IF GOD WERE REAL" works. The definition of love fits.

I'll have to remember that.  The definition of love fits perfectly for a guy that murders every living thing on the planet except for one buttkisser and his family.  Likewise, The definition of love applies just fine for someone that orders his follwers to go on a mass murder spree just because the native inhabitants just wouldn't get the hell away from his real estate deals[1].

Because you can't tell me I'm wrong. Because it's what I (emphasis on "I") believe in.

And here's the problem with christianty in a nutshell.  It won't matter what we say.  It won't matter what overwhelming evidence we throw at you.  You will just stick your fingers in your ears and yell "lalalala, not listening!"

Well, at the very least; I hope you won't presume to call us close-minded...

1.	The plot of pretty much the entire book of Joshula

[sammylama]

...you can't tell me I'm wrong. Because it's what I (emphasis on "I") believe in.

You're wrong...

See how easily your logic falls apart?   :shrug

[Dkit]

Now define love. Because that "sums up the laws" (quoted from bible from somewhere). So i thought about love a lot... What the crap was it. ANd a "Loving God" and Jesus' only commandment was to 1) Love God and 2) Love people, and that was it.

This contradicts your later statement. . .

if there is a tree in the middle of a forest and it falls down and noone was around, did the tree make a sound? If there is a God hovering in the middle of space all alone and noone else was there, is there really a God?

Why do Christians always want to compare God to things in nature that we can detect, measure and study?  The tree in the woods is observable in the natural world.  Scientists can determine what species of tree, how long it lived, what caused it to fall, etc.  God is not observable or detectable anywhere in the natural world, so if he's out there hanging out in the darkness, it doesn't matter.  He clearly isn't concerned with whether or not we know he exists.

LOVE = TO GIVE EVERYTHING, because there is simply no point (God or no God) to keep it all to yourself.

I think you're bringing god down to your human perspective.  An omnipotent god would not have the same desires and needs as humans.  He would remain static as a perfect being without change.  There would be no desire or need to create or love as he is already fulfilled and perfect. 

well, we couldn't possibly just be made to HAVE to love him (rephrased to: HAVE to give him everything). Otherwise we would all be like drones. We would all have no other choice but to give him everything and God would always win.

This is what contradicts the earlier statement.  Jesus COMMANDS.  There is no choice.  You are a drone.  If there were a choice, there would not be a hell.  There would not be an infinite punishment for the choice if god did not want drones.  The Abrahamic god does always win.  Either he gets the drones he wants or the defiant ones are sent to burn for eternity.  Let me also remind you of the commandments (depending on your flavor of Christianity):

I am the Lord your God    

You shall have no other gods before me
   
You shall not make for yourself an idol
   
You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God    

Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy

Please tell me how this applies:  we couldn't possibly just be made to HAVE to love him (rephrased to: HAVE to give him everything)

That would be just as meaningless as continuing to exist forever with no meaning or nothing to give oneself to.

Again, you are applying your human emotional needs to god.

So God gave free will.

 
There is no free will where an omnipotent/omniscient YHWH/Jesus is concerned.

And then I started to actually look at the bloody book.

Interesting word choice.

that's when I knew it was real.

Any, yet, you've still not provided evidence.

Because you can't tell me I'm wrong. Because it's what I (emphasis on "I") believe in.

Do you apply this same consideration to abductee claims, holocaust deniers, Mormons, Muslims, jihadists, etc.?

[velkyn]

Another factor to that is, well, I thought: IF i were God, I would think: what's the point in all this. What's the point in existence? What's the point of going on and on and on and on over eternity and eternity? What's it all to KEEP IT TO MYSELF. And so, in a really abstract way, thats what love is (the opposite of that.) LOVE = TO GIVE EVERYTHING, because there is simply no point (God or no God) to keep it all to yourself. THere isn't. You atheists know it. It won't satisfy. And IF you were to say that GOd did not exist after my rant, surely you cannot deny that this definition of Love is Gold.

I would like you to compare your bible god to the description of "love" in the same book.  You know, 1 Corinthians 13? One never can be sure a Christian could be bothered to read their supposed "holy" scriptures.

Your god fails to fulfill most, if not all, descriptors of what "love" is. Again we see that this supposed divinely inspired book is contradictory AGAIN.

[Nelanne]

i think what sets Christianity and all other religions apart is grace. i mean its the only religion where god came down to earth, experienced everything, then died and came back to life. but he did much more than that. he took all my sins, all my dirtiness, and he gave me all his righteousness, and he did it through Crucifixion. to me that's the greatest of all love. and its all through grace that this was done. i didn't do anything to deserve this unmerited forgiveness.

[sammylama]

i mean its the only religion where god came down to earth...

Where did he come down from?  I mean...where was he "up" at?  Like, what...up in the mountains?  Or...up in, say...Jupiter?  Or...what?

Edit:  And welcome to the forum, by the way.

[screwtape]

i think what sets Christianity and all other religions apart is grace. i mean its the only religion where god came down to earth, experienced everything, then died and came back to life. but he did much more than that. he took all my sins, all my dirtiness, and he gave me all his righteousness, and he did it through Crucifixion. to me that's the greatest of all love. and its all through grace that this was done. i didn't do anything to deserve this unmerited forgiveness.

That's nice.  But that does not answer the question.  You just made some testamonial that begs about a dozen questions and did not answer the OP.

One line at a time

i think what sets Christianity and all other religions apart is grace.

xianity and all other religions?  How do you set all religions apart?  Apart from what?  And what does grace have to do with other religions?  There is no grace in hinduism.

i mean its the only religion where god came down to earth, experienced everything, then died and came back to life.

yhwh did not experience "everything" while in its jesus suit.  Jesus never screwed, that we know of.  Jesus never had kids, that we know of. Jesus never killed a man, that we know of (though yhwh had plenty of experience doing that already).  And what is this baloney about yhwh dying?  You don't die and come back to life.  That is the definition of "die".  When something is dead, that is it.  It is final.  No more.  If something died and then came back to life, it was not dead in the first place.

but he did much more than that. he took all my sins, all my dirtiness, and he gave me all his righteousness, and he did it through Crucifixion.

How in the world could a guy take your sins when it would take almost 2000 years before you would even exist?  Forget that for a moment.  How could anyone even take your sins?  That is, if you do something wrong, nobody, nothing can change that fact.  As for your dirtyness - what the flip?  Why would you even say that? 

to me that's the greatest of all love. and its all through grace that this was done. i didn't do anything to deserve this unmerited forgiveness.

You've not been forgiven and the forgiveness is conditional.  You have to grovel and believe in preposterous things without evidence in order to receive your forgiveness.  Otherwise you are forced to endure infinite torture.  And keep in mind, that is the way your "merciful" god set it up.  Love me or suffer.  Obey me or be tortured.

You have not really thought this through, have you?

[velkyn]

i think what sets Christianity and all other religions apart is grace. i mean its the only religion where god came down to earth, experienced everything, then died and came back to life. but he did much more than that. he took all my sins, all my dirtiness, and he gave me all his righteousness, and he did it through Crucifixion. to me that's the greatest of all love. and its all through grace that this was done. i didn't do anything to deserve this unmerited forgiveness.

No it's one of many religions where a man/god came to earth to be sacrificed.  And they are all stories, Nelanne.  No evidence of those myths, including yours, being true.  Have you read anything about other religions, N?  If not, your ignorance will be a weakness here on these forums. 

And why do you need forgiven? What horrible thing did you do to a supposedly omnipotent/omniscient god that it could possibly care about?  That Adam and Eve thing?  Ah, what a "just" god, in blaming everyone for the supposed actions of two people.  How would you like to be blamed for someone else's crime here and now?  Not too fun is it?  Why do you worship a deity that supposedly did this? 

[Operator_020]

This thread is starting to stink up my debate room.  It will be archived with the main debate thread on 8/30 if there are no more responses.