The truth about prayer

[velkyn]

what do you think we'll get out of reading his story? I have, and it's just the usual baseless claims.  People tell stories all the time about being "healed" or some "miracle" happening.  Are their stories any less "inexplicable" or more believable? In my considered opinion, no. They all lack evidence.  No phone bills showing this call having ever been made, nothing. Just the claims of some mysterious woman who supposedly called him. Here's the website I read the story at: http://www.smilegodlovesyou.org/kengaub.html  What is amusing is that this has "Millie from Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.".  Well, you know what, I happen to live in Harrisburg, right up the Susquehanna from Three Mile Island. Now, if I wanted to, I could claim that "hallelujah, God is talkign to me by showing me a saved woman right in my *own* city."  Or it's just a coincidence.  Why is there no last name, surely this woman is proud to have a "miracle" from God?  I'm sure that the party line is that "we want to respect her privacy"....and evidently make a few bucks on it.  Now why is it that none of these people can ever produce the person or the actual healing (pre and post "miracle" medical reports) or anything?

and the reason that money seems important is that if he was just telling a story to spread the "good news" that's one thing. Charging for it is something quite different.  

EDIT: I also wonder about all of those peopel who did pray to God (care to claim that no suicidal person has?)  when they were going to commit suicide and why God didn't see fit to give them a miracle too.

[TobinCrw]

Now I am sure all of you will read this post and go, "Oh, now I agree with Tobin." LOL!

But let me summarize: We don't believe Ken's story because we feel it is unbelievable and without evidence, therefore he is a filthy liar (because we say so). In fact, he makes his living by lying and writing books centered around his lie.

Anyone who believes him is a fool. Gotcha.

So this isn't really a discussion about prayer, it is just a forum to label anyone we disagree with on the subject. Ok.

Please post this in the rules and save everyone some time.

Oh, and most importantly it is very important to get the last word because then it looks like you "won." See, simple!

[TobinCrw]

And you wonder why Nelanne hasn't posted for three weeks. 

[screwtape]

But let me summarize: We don't believe Ken's story because we feel it is unbelievable and without evidence,

So far, so good.

... therefore he is a filthy liar (because we say so).

Oops!  I must have missed that part. Can you show me who said that?  If I had to guess, I'd say velkyn, but she usually doesn't add "filthy" as an adjective when she calls people liars.  So, put up, or you know, zip it.

In fact, he makes his living by lying and writing books centered around his lie.

He makes a living by selling an idea that is entirely unprovable - that there is god.  Did you check out his merchandise link?  How about his schedule of appearances?  Clearly this is a business.  You should raise an eyebrow over this at the very least.  Otherwise you are a sucker.  Are you a sucker, Tobin?

Anyone who believes him is a fool. Gotcha.

EXACTLY!   

So this isn't really a discussion about prayer, it is just a forum to label anyone we disagree with on the subject. Ok.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?  Look, I know your ego might be a little bruised because it was bluntly pointed out just how silly it is to believe this guy.  Don't be so hard on yourself.  You are not the only one.  Guys like Gaub are professional con men and they dupe people like you all the time. 

But that is looking at the glass half empty.  Look at the glass half full - there are a bunch of people here generous enough and caring enough to help you see the truth.  What other crazy, half-baked notions do you have in your head that we can disabuse you of?

[jynnan tonnix]

Velkyn said:

EDIT: I also wonder about all of those peopel who did pray to God (care to claim that no suicidal person has?)  when they were going to commit suicide and why God didn't see fit to give them a miracle too. 
 

 
 
This is the part that I have to wonder about as well...Just supposing that the story is true, it either means that as a result of some massive coincidences, a suicidal woman dialed a random phone number while hoping for a way to get in touch with a specific man she thought could help her, and it turned out to be a phone booth he just happened to be walking past, and answered on impulse. Very, very...very unlikely, but not actually impossible.

Or it means that God orchestrated it, which would mean it was basically a piece of cake, given an omnipotent being.

If such completely astounding coincidences were to start happening on anything like a regular...or even intermittent basis as a result of prayer (with some accompanying validation), it might go a long way toward bringing more people to a belief in God. So, win/win...more people saved in both this life and the next.

In that case, one has to wonder why God wouldn't make a bit more of a habit of such things...

[TobinCrw]

Screwtape, I am so glad I finally met you all knowing one!

You in fact just proved God!! Ken Gaub can't be believed because he has "merchandise."

Therefore, atheist Richard Dawkins, who has A LOT of merchandise CAN'T be believed, therefore atheists are wrong and GOD EXISTS!

Man, you totally made my day!!!

Everybody say it with me, "Thank you Screwtape!!!" I think I hear angels singing, AND there is a tear in my eye. My search is over!!!!!!!1

[TobinCrw]

That is, unless you are a sucker. Are you a sucker Screwtape?

[screwtape]

Screwtape, I am so glad I finally met you all knowing one!

You in fact just proved God!! Ken Gaub can't be believed because he has "merchandise."

Therefore, atheist Richard Dawkins, who has A LOT of merchandise CAN'T be believed, therefore atheists are wrong and GOD EXISTS!

You might be an idiot.  But let me ask you a few questions to guage whether that is so.

1. What is Gaub's profession?  What does it entail?
2. What is Dawkins' profession?  What does it primarily entail?
3. What is the difference between Gaub's professional claims and Dawkin's proressional claims?  Not the differences in content, but in quality. There are two major categories I am looking for.

[TobinCrw]

An idiot? Awww, it is ok that you are frustrated, but stick with me and I will help you, that is why I am here. Don't worry, I know how hard it is to let go of the ego, but I will help you raise the bar.

Plus, now that we are friends I feel we should be on a first name basis. You know my name and you sound like a Doug to me, so from now on we shall dialogue much less formally.

So, Doug, it is ok to admit defeat, you can't always win. I mean, if you were perfect you would be, say it with me, God.

But hey, like I said, I will help you raise the bar, it will just take some time.

Gaub's profession? Neuroscience probably.

Dawkins? I think it is finger painting.

But these are irrelevant. They both make claims, they both have speaking engagements, they both write books, therefore I stand by my statement, Dawkins must then be wrong so God exists. Thanks again buddy!!

[TobinCrw]

Plus I have no idea what a proressional is...unless you are an idiot. Are you an idiot Doug?

[TobinCrw]

And for anyone really interested, it sounds like a lot of people use the scientific method here in part, so maybe the first place to start is with the claimant.

So I sent Ken Gaub a summary of what is said here and asked for some evidence. Sorry Doug didn't think of that, he is too busy using his thesaurus to find a replacement for proressional.

[OnePerson]

Yeah, we have a troll.

[velkyn]

just as I suspected, a Christian who thought that his story would be impressive and found out that it wasn't.  And then said Christian, evidently feeling defensive when asked for evidence, decided to create strawman arguments, attempt to put words in other people's mouths and become a troll, with nothing better than insults and whines about spelling. It's not that hard, Tobin. Just show some evidence why we should believe your story.   

And we have had other Christians who claimed to be in direct contact with the Christian teacher that they believe in, sure to have a response for us "soon".  it's not suprising on how this never occurs. I wonder what will happen when you don't get  response either, Tobin.  What excuse will you use?   

[Gimpy]

Now I am sure all of you will read this post and go, "Oh, now I agree with Tobin." LOL!

But let me summarize: We don't believe Ken's story because we feel it is unbelievable and without evidence, therefore he is a filthy liar (because we say so). In fact, he makes his living by lying and writing books centered around his lie.

Do you know what a Strawman logical fallacy is? Cuz you do it really well.

Anyone who believes him is a fool. Gotcha.

So this isn't really a discussion about prayer, it is just a forum to label anyone we disagree with on the subject. Ok.

Oh, goody. Another Strawman.

Your "story" wasn't about "prayer." At best it was an urban legend.

Why would you think that is has anything to do with prayer?

As others have said, you know full well there is no way that any credible supporting evidence to back up this "miracle" exists.

If it did, it would at least be in the footnotes.

Oh, and most importantly it is very important to get the last word because then it looks like you "won." See, simple!

Aw. Feeling vulnerable?

[Gimpy]

You in fact just proved God!! Ken Gaub can't be believed because he has "merchandise."

Strawman fallacy AGAIN. Do you conveniently leave out the parts where Gaub fails to provide credible supporting evidence?

Yeah, you did, because if you did, you couldn't then commit another logical fallacy by jumping to this:

herefore, atheist Richard Dawkins, who has A LOT of merchandise CAN'T be believed, therefore atheists are wrong and GOD EXISTS!

As Dawkins' works contain several reference pages full of supporting evidence.

Sucks, eh?

Man, you totally made my day!!!

Everybody say it with me, "Thank you Screwtape!!!" I think I hear angels singing, AND there is a tear in my eye. My search is over!!!!!!!1

And now we have an ego-busted troll.

Sorry you thought we'd be just as gullible as you.

[Operator_011]

Hi TobinCrw,

Please post this in the rules and save everyone some time.

Have you read our rules yet?

[jetson]

 Every time we get a new one like this, it reminds me of QM....eewww!

[spiritualatheist]

I get as much of a placebo effect by praying to God as any to any other fictional character. 

[MockTurtle]

It is one thing to put a commercial on television that no one knows who wrote it. That is FAR different than being a person who stands in front of a live audience and tells them face to face what this guy is saying.

Do you mean like Mike Warnke has done for years following the publication of his book "The Satan Seller"?  Or like Lauren Stratford did with her books and her later pretending to be a Holocaust survivor?

[screwtape]

Plus I have no idea what a proressional is...unless you are an idiot. Are you an idiot Doug?

No, I'm not.  But you have pretty well established that you are. 

[sammylama]

Plus I have no idea what a proressional is...unless you are an idiot. Are you an idiot Doug?

No, I'm not.  But you have pretty well established that you are. 

I'm an idiot...can I play?   

[Anfauglir]

So I sent Ken Gaub a summary of what is said here and asked for some evidence. Sorry Doug didn't think of that.....

Personally, I'm interested in why you didn't do that when you first heard Gaub's story, if you felt it was that important.  After all, like you said:

We don't believe Ken's story because we feel it is unbelievable and without evidence....

And that is quite correct.  Gaub tells a story that contains a lengthy chain of highly implausible events, which Screwtape helpfully summarised:

1. some guy answers a random phone and the call is actually for him because...
2. some random woman saw him on tv and was depressed so...
3. she blackmailed god by saying she would kill herself if she did not talk to this guy so...
4. she "saw" some numbers and dialed them and...
5. he talked her out of killing herself and..
6. now he is selling a book about it.

(I've bolded the implausible parts).

The world is full of people who lie for a living.  And, yes, often to rooms full of people, face to face.  Anyone who has ever been duped into a pyramid scheme knows how plausible liars can be.  Fake timeshare salesmen also.  And, let's not forget, all the billions of people who believed the words of their local holy man (excepting of course the one, true god).  So the fact that someone is prepared to tell a story does not, in itself, say anything about the truth of it.

You said at one point:

All I am saying is if his story is legitimate out of all the stories I have read or heard about "answered prayer" his is one of the most inexplicable.

Again, my bold.  What I want to know is why you seem to think that "string of fortuitous coincidences arranged by god" is a better explanation than "person makes up a story to make money"?

[Kodanshi]

this is just the way i see it.

God has already answered all our prayer by giving us  the gift of a mind.

Not related to prayer, but let me ask you: with this, our only ability, how can god then condemn us to an eternity in hell if our own critical faculties, that god itself gave us, lead us to conclude that it doesn’t exist?

[Whateverman]

this is just the way i see it.

God has already answered all our prayer by giving us  the gift of a mind.

I consider having a mind to be a form of torture; it's not a gift in any way.

[jynnan tonnix]

this is just the way i see it.

God has already answered all our prayer by giving us  the gift of a mind.

Not related to prayer, but let me ask you: with this, our only ability, how can god then condemn us to an eternity in hell if our own critical faculties, that god itself gave us, lead us to conclude that it doesn’t exist?

exactly!
Personally, I'm a sort of mixture between being very suggestible and very introspective. Presumably by God's design ( ). This means that I'm both easily swayed by my environment, and driven toward analyzing my reactions at the same time. Which, in practice, makes me most skeptical of anything I find myself feeling drawn into or, by extrapolation, of anything that tends to draw a wide swath of people along with it.

[screwtape]

I'm an idiot...can I play?   ;D

I don't know why you would want to.  Like the game of Global Thermonuclear War[1], the only winners are the ones who do not play.

1.	reference to War Games

[wsyderider]

I believe that God truly here our prayers and may and may not answer it. For example, My friend was at the hospital and needed rent money. We prayed and by faith I believe Jesus would pay for it. He called the apartment, and the rent was paid for. Again he called me next month because he had no money. We prayed and he called the apartment up. They mentioned that it was paid for three months. Again he called me after three months and we prayed again. They said call him back next year because he had credit until the end of the year. He did not have to pay rent for a total of 2 years and 3 months. I am a born again christian.

[Bereft_of_Faith]

I believe that God truly here our prayers and may and may not answer it. For example, My friend was at the hospital and needed rent money. We prayed and by faith I believe Jesus would pay for it. He called the apartment, and the rent was paid for. Again he called me next month because he had no money. We prayed and he called the apartment up. They mentioned that it was paid for three months. Again he called me after three months and we prayed again. They said call him back next year because he had credit until the end of the year. He did not have to pay rent for a total of 2 years and 3 months. I am a born again christian.

Just out of curiosity, who actually paid the rent?

[plethora]

I believe that God truly here our prayers and may and may not answer it. For example, My friend was at the hospital and needed rent money. We prayed and by faith I believe Jesus would pay for it. He called the apartment, and the rent was paid for. Again he called me next month because he had no money. We prayed and he called the apartment up. They mentioned that it was paid for three months. Again he called me after three months and we prayed again. They said call him back next year because he had credit until the end of the year. He did not have to pay rent for a total of 2 years and 3 months. I am a born again christian.

So he hears all prayers... but only answers some. Interesting. He paid the rent for your friend and at the same time ignoring the sincere prayers of women in africa asking their god to spare their children as they slowly and painfully die of starvation and disease.

You don't think that's unfair? Doesn't the idea that a god who interevenes sometimes and puts your friend's rent at a higher priority than stopping the painful suffering a thousands of children disgust you?

If such a god existed he would be a repsulsive, sadistic being.
Luckily, he doesn't exist.

P.S. Proof that the money 'magically' appeared or it didn't happen.