Author Topic: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???  (Read 1471 times)

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Offline sarrablack

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Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« on: May 10, 2010, 10:25:09 PM »
Sorry for reposting, but it suddenly occured to me this might me the better forum for my question.
Okay, so I always discuss theology with religious teachers of mine, because I like to think think that I can still be open minded to theism while acknowledging that at present and in the forseeable future I find it to be complete and utter bs. Usually I'm right, and these people are just sheep, brainwashed beyond the point of no return, or just plain stupid. But today I was talking to my chemistry teacher- incidentally a really smart guy- about religious stuff. At first he babbled about the usual trite theist 'proofs' for religion, which I pretty much proved fallacious. But then he told me that the superstring theory- the quantum physics theory that posits that the universe has 11 dimensions- was foretold in ancient Kabbalah. That really threw me off for a bit. Of course, I definitely dont retract my atheism.. AT ALL haha. Far from it. But I'm just curious... can anyone knowlegable read through the link he sent me and tell me if this claim is true??? Because its really strange to me if correct, I gotta be honest......     :? :?

http://www.mindspring.com/~noetic.advanced.studies/Amoroso14.pdf
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 04:58:09 AM by Moderator_011 »
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Offline penkie

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Sorry for reposting, but it suddenly occured to me this might me the better forum for my question.
Okay, so I always discuss theology with religious teachers of mine, because I like to think think that I can still be open minded to theism while acknowledging that at present and in the forseeable future I find it to be complete and utter bs. Usually I'm right, and these people are just sheep, brainwashed beyond the point of no return, or just plain stupid. But today I was talking to my chemistry teacher- incidentally a really smart guy- about religious stuff. At first he babbled about the usual trite theist 'proofs' for religion, which I pretty much proved fallacious. But then he told me that the superstring theory- the quantum physics theory that posits that the universe has 11 dimensions- was foretold in ancient Kabbalah. That really threw me off for a bit. Of course, I definitely dont retract my atheism.. AT ALL haha. Far from it. But I'm just curious... can anyone knowlegable read through the link he sent me and tell me if this claim is true??? Because its really strange to me if correct, I gotta be honest......     :? :?

http://www.mindspring.com/~noetic.advanced.studies/Amoroso14.pdf
It's a big bag of bullshit.

The paper describes two separate subjects. A superficial overview of string theory (as known in 1999) and some selective quotes Kabbalah. Then the paper makes connection between 10 elements of The Ten Sefirot, which apparently is the tree of life as described in Kabbalah and super string theory which claims there might be 10 dimensions.

Let me point out some weaknesses in stated paper:

  • Making connections between the Kabbalah and string theory based on the number 10 is ridiculous. In exactly the same way I can connect string theory to the ten commandments in the bible, my ten fingers, 10 years in a decade, 10 sports in decathlon. All connections are completely arbitrary. Nothing in Kabbalah directly refers to string theory
  • Super String theory has been superseded by M-theory that expands from original 10 dimensions, to 11. So the connection is even more bullshit than before. But I am sure that Kabbalists can come up with an explanation after the fact.
  • String theory is what you call "just a theory". There is no single piece of physical evidence that has validated this theory. It makes predictions that are very hard to test. Some special variants might (or might) be testable in LHC, though, so who knows. For the moment it is completely untested though

In other words, as always, it is a semi-scientific paper by a quasi-scientists, that is looking for connections with science theory (preferably the latest and most modern) and create semi-connections with some ancient text. By using scientific terms this allows them to convince laymen, who know little of both subjects.

Personally I found the movie Pi about roughly the same subject (connecting 'science' with Kaballah) more convincing (and more entertaining  :D).
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 03:33:41 AM by penkie »
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Offline plethora

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Re: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2010, 04:48:05 AM »
I more or less read this... I'm no physicist or theologian... but damn is the attached document a sack of BS.

This is doing nothing more than making a comparison between a very high level interpretation of the model of string theory and the kabbalah. It is admitting that the comparisons are not accurate and are merely citing interesting 'coincidences' and curious 'similarities' between two things that have nothing to do with each other.

I mean... just look at the beginning of point 5.0:

Quote
5.0 Sidebar Providing Evidence for the Existence of God

As a sidebar to the interesting contrast between Superstring Theory and the Tree of Life superficial evidence can be claimed
for the existence of God. If the reader accepts the metaphors presented in describing Superstring Theory and the Ten
Seferot as mirroring the structure of reality to a certain degree
, then using the basis for mysticism as a drawing out or
exegesis, one might deduce that the reason the model of the Ten Seferot (which is itself a cosmology) fits so well with the
supersymmetry of Superstring Theory, which is the best known model for describing the physical universe that science
has to offer today, which is hundreds of years after the origin of the description of the Tree of Life; is because the mysticism
of the Kabbalist actually divined the nature of the physical universe by tapping into the spirit of God that orders the large
scale structure of the universe through gravitation.

It admits that there are metaphorical comparisions, states that you have to accept certain premises to 'a certain degree' and makes a rediculous leap claiming that the Kabbalah has 'tapped into the spirit of god'...

String theory is not perfect and it is not conclusive. The significance of the planck length is yet undetermined. Relativity has its limitations. The planck length is the length at which relativity still applies with the universal constants of gravitation and the speed of light. Anything shorter than the plack length and relativity falls apart. The same happens with with the Planck Epoch.

Science is not saying that there can't be anything shorter than the Planck Length or anything before the Planck Epoch. It is only saying that we currently have no idea how to go any further with our current formulas.

The document seemed to stick god into this gap where science lacks knowledge.

The whole thing is just your average theist argument with no basis, full of non-sequitors and fallacies. It is simply disguised as 'scientific'... but moves with the premise of a god existing all along. It implies an intelligent designer without any justification as to why any of this needs to be designed.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 04:50:07 AM by plethora »
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Offline Operator_011

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Re: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2010, 05:00:43 AM »
Hi sarrablack,

Sorry for reposting, but it suddenly occured to me this might me the better forum for my question.
I've merged the two topics for you so this is the only thread that exists now. In future it's best to ask a mod to do that rather than duplicate the topic elsewhere.

Enjoy your discussion.


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Offline sarrablack

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Re: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2010, 09:53:12 PM »
Firstly, thanks to the mod :) Sorry, it wont happen again.

To the people who replied: Thing is, I kinda only scanned the link, which was probably a mistake. The teacher in question was talking about '11 dimensions' that have 6 something or other that was mentioned in Kaballah. But now after thinking it over for a night I take it with a huge-o grain of salt. Your replies are completely on-target... I think I was just a little nonplussed, and because its a rare occurance in my arguments with theists, I kinda made it into a bigger deal than it was.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. You guys rock. I'm gonna continue talking to this guy though... Im pretty sure I'll be able to see things rationally, but if not its great to know people can help me out of my (temporary, stupidity-induced) rut.  ;D
« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 10:03:01 PM by sarrablack »
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Offline plethora

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Re: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2010, 05:43:40 AM »
Hey man... I've been there. Someone pulls an argument that I've never heard before and I'm like... "whaa? I need some time to look at this..."

... but eventually it comes around to being a refutable argument. You just need get through the veils and identify the argument for what it really is. Sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious. :)
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Offline TheJefBob

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Re: Um.... Superstring theory in old Kabbalah???
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2013, 11:42:32 AM »
Perhaps this outlines the Kabbalistic - String Theory connection better http://www.inner.org/string/string.htm