Why all the animosity towards Christians?

[Mr. Blackwell]

I have never seen a virus, nor a bacteria, black-hole or missing link. does not mean that I don't believe we wont find what we're looking for given time.enough time. I haven't seen a miracale or anyone raise from the dead. doesn't mean that I dont' believe we wont find what we're looking for given time. Haven't seen any of YOU either! is my internet even connected?!!

yay, here we go with the solipsism again.  One mor theist who thinks that they are so special and so unique to have thought of this as the new answer to people who don't belive in their claims or their god. 

As for "Christianos", if you make the claim, put up or shut up.  I do not take vague claims without evidence.  If you say "Many, as psychopaths are not limited to just "religious" motivation."  then demonstrate these "secularly based genocides".  As you already seem to know, the usual people that theists parade about, Stalin and Hitler, were not religous but they were megalomaniacs and wanted to be worshipped as gods.  However, we can show that religion is a main factor in many other genocides, where one groups invisible friend is considered better than anothers.

No...tell you what, if you can't accept that psychopaths are not limited to just religious motivation and if Stalin and Hitler don't count as an example of this then you need to back up your claim that religion is a main factor in many other genocides where one groups invisible friend is considered better than anothers. The examples you provide should make it abundantly clear that there were no other motivating factors other than one group thought their invisible friend was better than the other groups invisible friend.

[Dante]

The examples you provide should make it abundantly clear that there were no other motivating factors other than one group thought their invisible friend was better than the other groups invisible friend.

9/11/2001

[Mr. Blackwell]

Jay, I can't help but point out that many of your responses to others insinuates that they are saying or have argued the counter claim you make when they actually never do or have.  Many people here have expressly pointed out in contradiction to the idea that the desire is for Utopia or the eradication of 'religion'.

Why do you always seem to respond as if people do not say that?

Can you clarify your point a little. I want to address your question but I am not entirely sure what you are asking.

[One Above All]

No...tell you what, if you can't accept that psychopaths are not limited to just religious motivation and if Stalin and Hitler

Stopped there. Hitler was "doing the work of god" by ridding the world of the Jews
Dunno about Stalin though

[Mr. Blackwell]

No...tell you what, if you can't accept that psychopaths are not limited to just religious motivation and if Stalin and Hitler

Stopped there. Hitler was "doing the work of god" by ridding the world of the Jews
Dunno about Stalin though

you need to read the post I was responding to. I did not bring up either of those blokes.

[Mr. Blackwell]

The examples you provide should make it abundantly clear that there were no other motivating factors other than one group thought their invisible friend was better than the other groups invisible friend.

9/11/2001

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks

Statements of motives prior to September 11, 2001
Main articles: Wikisource:Jihad Against Zionists and Crusaders, Osama bin Laden Fatwa, Videos of Osama bin Laden, and Wikisource:Osama bin Laden's Declaration of War
Since 1996 Osama bin Laden has stated in public proclamations (fatwas) and in interviews with journalists his common list of grievances which he cites as the reason for his declaration of war against the United States.
In 1998 Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri, (a leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad), co-signed a fatwa (binding religious edict) in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring:
[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[37][38]
In an interview with journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai published in TIME Magazine, January 11, 1999, Osama bin Laden is quoted as saying:
The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the US and Israel has issued a crystal-clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on jihad aimed at liberating holy sites. The nation of Muhammad has responded to this appeal. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate Al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka'aba Islamic shrines in the Middle East is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal.[39]


Doesn't say anything about Allah being better than God. Sounds like they just want us out of their country and leave them alone.

[Dante]

[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[37][38]

Really?

The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the US and Israel has issued a crystal-clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on jihad aimed at liberating holy sites. The nation of Muhammad has responded to this appeal. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate Al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka'aba Islamic shrines in the Middle East is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal.[39]

Really?

Doesn't say anything about Allah being better than God. Sounds like they just want us out of their country and leave them alone.

And the jews say it's their country. Who's god is right?

[Mr. Blackwell]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks

Statements of motives prior to September 11, 2001
Main articles: Wikisource:Jihad Against Zionists and Crusaders, Osama bin Laden Fatwa, Videos of Osama bin Laden, and Wikisource:Osama bin Laden's Declaration of War
Since 1996 Osama bin Laden has stated in public proclamations (fatwas) and in interviews with journalists his common list of grievances which he cites as the reason for his declaration of war against the United States.
In 1998 Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri, (a leader of Egyptian Islamic Jihad), co-signed a fatwa (binding religious edict) in the name of the World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders, declaring:
[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[37][38]
In an interview with journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai published in TIME Magazine, January 11, 1999, Osama bin Laden is quoted as saying:
The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the US and Israel has issued a crystal-clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on jihad aimed at liberating holy sites. The nation of Muhammad has responded to this appeal. If the instigation for jihad against the Jews and the Americans in order to liberate Al-Aksa Mosque and the Holy Ka'aba Islamic shrines in the Middle East is considered a crime, then let history be a witness that I am a criminal.[39]


Doesn't say anything about Allah being better than God. Sounds like they just want us out of their country and leave them alone.

still doesn't say anything about their invisible friend being better than our invisible friend.

[Dante]

The International Islamic Front for Jihad against the US and Israel has issued a crystal-clear fatwa calling on the Islamic nation to carry on jihad aimed at liberating holy sites.

A religious group for a holy war issued a clerically backed statement for the religious group to carry on the holy war for liberating holy sites doesn't strike you as religiously motivated?

Really?

[Mr. Blackwell]

No it doesn't. Still sounds like the age old struggle for land and resources. I think perhaps if you can't see that then maybe you are somewhat brainwashed.

[Dante]

No it doesn't. Still sounds like the age old struggle for land and resources.

IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD! (facepalm)

[screwtape]

...[t]he ruling to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, ...<snip>

Doesn't say anything about Allah being better than God. Sounds like they just want us out of their country and leave them alone.

bold mine.  The holy mosque in Makka is Mecca, which is in Saudi Arabia.  Why do you think they want US personel out of Saudi Arabi and "all the lands of Islam"?

[Mr. Blackwell]

IN THE NAME OF THEIR GOD! (facepalm)

Religion is a tool.....to motivate the dumb masses to move. The call to war was not about different opinions of god or a difference in religion. The call to war was made to remove a foreign occupier from their lands. To those people who are in control and make decisions concerning such issues it has nothing to do with god. It has everything to do with control and resources and to a certain extent autonomy to act in their own best interests. For the poor kid or poor farmer whose only education is the holy book perhaps it is about god but they were not the ones who made the declaration.

...Why do you think they want US personel out of Saudi Arabi and "all the lands of Islam"?

Resources, control, the usual reasons people fight over land.

[Nam]

This could be a big can of worms but I am sincerely confused by some of the arguments and statements posted on this forum. Would the world be any different if there had never been a religion (any) in the first place? What does Utopia look like from a reasonable mind?

It seems you assume that without religion--or you assume that we think that without religion that life would be a Utopia.  I'm sure some think of that, in those varying terms but I doubt that would be true.  Atheists or non-religious people can be just as violent as religious; it's just they wouldn't be hiding behind a curtain like those in religion do; they'd be open about it.

-Nam

[screwtape]

...Why do you think they want US personel out of Saudi Arabi and "all the lands of Islam"?

Resources, control, the usual reasons people fight over land.

But at the time, we were not occupying muslim lands.  Our troops were in SA at the request of the Saudi royal family.  Presumably if they had asked us to leave, we would have left.  So again, why did OBL want us to leave?  (hint: religion is key)

[Omen]

and if Stalin and Hitler don't count

Hitler was christian.

The hundreds of his close entourage were christian.

The tens of thousands of german soldiers were christian.

The hundreds of thousands of german citizens who supported hitler were christian.

It is with practically 100 % percent certainty that a christian somewhere threw a jew into a stove.

Now why?

Hitler's use of propaganda used christian apologist, demonizing/dehumanizing jews. ( Martin Luther )

Nazi propaganda simply extended already pre-existing culturally and christian oriented anti-semitic claims that had existed in Europe for hundreds of years.

Nazi's also targeted other groups that christians would define polemically; people of other faiths, jehovah witnesses, homosexuals. etc.

What exactly about Hitler.. was NOT christian?

----------------------------------------------

Stalin ( a psychopath ) used his political position to violent subdue those that would oppose him or actively spoke out against him.  Which included christians, jews, atheist, and well.. everybody.  Stalin placed himself at the head of a kind of state worship, created his own 'miracles' ( promising yields of crops magically ), and exhibited classic signs of other psychotic traits - narcissistic etc.  Millions died from neglect, violence, famine, etc.

Was he an atheist? Probably.

Could he be considered 'secular'? Sure.

Now what about any of the above is inherently 'atheistic'?

[RaymondKHessel]

Now what about any of the above is inherently 'atheistic'?

What, you can't relate? Shiiiii. I genocide all the time.The atheist spirits compell me.

Hell, just last week I went to town on about 13,000 various Mexicans and Eskimos.

I liked to dismember them and then mix and match the pieces. You know... So I can make Meximos.

[Gimpy]

Meximos.

[Dante]

This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[37][38]

It doesn't sound like they "just want us out of their country and leave them alone", and I think if you cant see that, perhaps you are somewhat brain dead.

[Mr. Blackwell]

This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'.[37][38]

It doesn't sound like they "just want us out of their country and leave them alone", and I think if you cant see that, perhaps you are somewhat brain dead.

Dante, I think your prejudice of religion prevents you from understanding the truth of the situation. Religion is a man made construct. Even in your quote you use to prove your point that it is purely motivated by religion you choose not to see the underlying cause of the Jihad waged by Al-Qaeda. I have highlighted the underlying cause. The Qur'an gives instructions on how to wage war and under what circumstances. So does the Bible. So do the Rules of Engagement and the Geneva convention. I am making the argument and provided evidence that the reason for the attacks on 9/11 were not simply because America might be perceived as a Christian nation and Bin Laden believes in a different god but rather it was because Bin Laden wanted no more to do with America and wanted us out of Muslim countries. It's US foreign policy he is fighting against not our "God". Bin Laden uses scripture to justify his jihad but if we had pulled all our troops out of the area after the soviet afghanastan conflict we would not be having this particular conversation.

Omen, I did not bring up Hitler or Stalin as an example of atheist leaders committing genocide. Hitlers religious views are disputed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views) however, I have no desire to go tit for tat on this issue. Velkyn brought that up and issued a challenge...

As for "Christianos", if you make the claim, put up or shut up.  I do not take vague claims without evidence.  If you say "Many, as psychopaths are not limited to just "religious" motivation."  then demonstrate these "secularly based genocides".  As you already seem to know, the usual people that theists parade about, Stalin and Hitler, were not religous but they were megalomaniacs and wanted to be worshipped as gods.  However, we can show that religion is a main factor in many other genocides, where one groups invisible friend is considered better than anothers.

to which I replied...

No...tell you what, if you can't accept that psychopaths are not limited to just religious motivation and if Stalin and Hitler don't count as an example of this then you need to back up your claim that religion is a main factor in many other genocides where one groups invisible friend is considered better than anothers. The examples you provide should make it abundantly clear that there were no other motivating factors other than one group thought their invisible friend was better than the other groups invisible friend.

Which began the current discussion between Dante and I after he offered 9/11  as an example.

screwtape, you said

But at the time, we were not occupying muslim lands.  Our troops were in SA at the request of the Saudi royal family.  Presumably if they had asked us to leave, we would have left.  So again, why did OBL want us to leave?  (hint: religion is key)

The US has maintained a presence in Afghanistan since the late 1980's but to concede a point OBL may have wanted us to leave because we are "infidels" but he did not declare jihad because we are "infidels" he attacked us because we wouldn't leave.

[Mr. Blackwell]

It seems you assume that without religion--or you assume that we think that without religion that life would be a Utopia.  I'm sure some think of that, in those varying terms but I doubt that would be true.  Atheists or non-religious people can be just as violent as religious; it's just they wouldn't be hiding behind a curtain like those in religion do; they'd be open about it.

-Nam

I appreciate your input Nam. I did make the assumption that at least a few members of this forum would make statements about removing "fundies"  being a good start. Here are a few examples:

 ? atheists who display animosity towards christians believe that ridding the world of religion will necessarily bring Utopia ?

Bugger Utopia, I believe a world without religion, will be reward enough, even if it is still populated with stupid monkeys.

... Personally, if we could kick out the fundies and knock religion in general back a step or two I think the USA would be about as close as we're gonna get. Nowhere near perfect, but a good system.

And I milder version from -Wright- who actually participated with this exorcise with his own opinion about how a Utopia might look.

... I'll speculate a bit. In this scenario, religion has been more or less peacefully replaced by rational thought at some unspecified time in the future.

To your point, Nam, that "they'd be open about it" gives me no amount of comfort. In other words, it makes no difference to me if I am being oppressed (murdered or otherwise violated) by a religious system of control or a secular system of control. Oppression, no matter what the source or reason, is still oppression.

[screwtape]

screwtape, you said

But at the time, we were not occupying muslim lands.  Our troops were in SA at the request of the Saudi royal family.  Presumably if they had asked us to leave, we would have left.  So again, why did OBL want us to leave?  (hint: religion is key)

The US has maintained a presence in Afghanistan since the late 1980's

That does not match my recollection.  could you please support that statement with a link?

but to concede a point OBL may have wanted us to leave because we are "infidels" but he did not declare jihad because we are "infidels" he attacked us because we wouldn't leave.

He wanted us out of saudi arabia because we are dirty infidels in the "holy" land.  Does that not meet the criteria of a religiously motivated problem?







[/quote]

[Mr. Blackwell]

....that does not match my recollection.  could you please support that statement with a link?
He wanted us out of saudi arabia because we are dirty infidels in the "holy" land.  Does that not meet the criteria of a religiously motivated problem?

No.

I did not go far back enough...we have been there since the 1940's
http://countrystudies.us/saudi-arabia/59.htm

it's a good read. Listen, this shit goes waaaaay back. But if you look closely you will see that the main underlying theme is oil,
 stability, control or their people and resources and autonomy from the far reaching influence of American interests (oil)
Islam is a red herring...Islam is a red herring...Islam is a red herring. Fuck it, let me give you an example of a purely religious based crime.
David Berkowitz a.k.a. son of sam. He says that a demon possessed his neighbors dog and commanded him to kill people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Berkowitz
 
In Islam you have great multitude of uneducated peasants who only know how to scape a living from their meager resources and the Qu-Ran.
Then you have the state/the clerics and rulers of these people. They have scraped together much wealth, power and influence. You see, here in America there is supposed to be a separation from church and state but Islam is the marriage of church and state. Those who control it are interested in maintaining control of their empire and expanding it through the exploitation of their vast oil reserves. Now, you get a situation like Russia and Iraq trying to budge in on that cash cow and here we come along to help rid them of their invaders. But we over stayed our welcome. Many Muslims protested our very presence from the beginning. OBL was stripped of his citizenship for speaking out against the Saudi Royal Family for allowing us to come help in the first place. He offered to fight the war himself but was rejected. Talk about having your pride stepped on. Then his family rejected him. They are very powerful there, they have the contract to maintain the two holiest Mosks in Saudi Arabia. Another tremendous blow to his ego and pride. So OBL has all this animosity towards western culture and American imperialism we are "infidels" providing the security the Royal Family seeks instead of him. So he goes to his good book and "Ah HA!" he discovers he has the right under the rules of Islam to declare Fatwa on the American invaders of the holy land. So after we oust Russian and later Iraq we hang around and that is when Al-Quda declared us the enemy. We are the great Satan. This is a HOLY war!! bullshit. Dante, I am running out of ways to explain to you how this war was not started because

b]...However, we can show that religion is a main factor in many other genocides, where one groups invisible friend is considered better than anothers. [/b]

Nobody in this debate about 9/11 has offered any proof that this war is being fought over whose invisible friend is better than anothers.

[screwtape]

In the previous post you mentioned afghanistan.  Now you bring up saudi arabia.  Which is it?

I don't buy islam being a red herring.

I agree it is not strictly about whose god is bigger, though that does play into it.  You are getting down to the nitty gritty between culture, heritage and religion.  At some point they all seem to blend. It may not be The Problem, but it certainly is part of the problem.

[Mr. Blackwell]

In the previous post you mentioned afghanistan.  Now you bring up saudi arabia.  Which is it?

Both actually...OBL's big beef was our presence in the Royal Kingdom of Saudi Arabia but Afghanistan is also a Mulsim country so He and others took issue over that as well. My meds are kickin in so I will respond to your other points tomorrow. g'night

[Dante]

Good morning jay,

I'll happily give you the point that religion is a man-made construct, and that it is used as a tool to gain, and keep, power over the masses. No problem.

But you seem to be trying to convince me that religion plays no part in the conflict between the mid east and the secular west! You know it does, though. I know it does, screwtape knows it does, pretty much everyone on the planet indeed knows that religion plays a huge role in the animosity between us and them. If neither side had religion to attract sheep to the slaughter, do you think we'd really be having this conversation?

I, for one, doubt it. If neither side could claim celestial superiority, logic and reason would triumph and mutually beneficial arrangements would be easily accomodated. Both sides could be satisfied with a lucrative business solution.

But no. Religions says "we're right, they're wrong, because god said so!" And we're left with what we have. One side, typically the more fundamentalists, being aggressive towards that which is at odds with their belief system.

Think about it, Jay. If they were atheist, and we (the secular west) were atheist, do you really think there would be a WAR going on? Do you think anyone could be convinced to fly a planeload of people into a building housing thousands of workers? Could they be convinced to slip on their explosive underwear to kill, injure, and main their own countrymen without the threat of hell or the promise of heaven?

I think not.

[dloubet]

I don't understand why so many members of this forum use that particular method. Just seems mean spirited.

If you're asking why atheists sometimes use emotional arguments, it's because so often the calm and rational ones don't have an effect. It's not that they're wrong, it's that they're ignored. The emotional arguments are an attempt to get past the theist tactic of putting their fingers in their ears and shouting "LALALALALA!".

Sometimes I think we resort to those arguments a little early, but that's a judgment call.

[Gimpy]

Nobody in this debate about 9/11 has offered any proof that this war is being fought over whose invisible friend is better than anothers.

Well, the Powers That Be (those in control of the resources that they want to keep, and those who want someone else's resources) know it's not about Sky Daddy.

But the Worker Bees (those who are blowing themselves up to kill the outliers) don't know that.

The Worker Bees, the ones who are actually doing the killing and being killed, truly believe it's about their Sky Daddy being better than the others' Sky Daddy.

That's the whole part about religion as a tool for control, manipulation, and power that you seem to be ignoring.

There are very few things that can get people to put their lives on the line like that.

One is nationalism, but even that has its limits.

Religion is the King Manipulator, which tells me that if there were no religion, then there would be lesser, and weaker, tools for manipulation on the scale that religion has been used over the millennia.

[Nam]

I appreciate your input Nam. I did make the assumption that at least a few members of this forum would make statements about removing "fundies"  being a good start.

All groups, no matter the group, have fanaticals in them. But that's not where people should start; one should actually start at the bottom 'cause if you get rid of the masses then the nuts only have nuts to play with.

To your point, Nam, that "they'd be open about it" gives me no amount of comfort. In other words, it makes no difference to me if I am being oppressed (murdered or otherwise violated) by a religious system of control or a secular system of control. Oppression, no matter what the source or reason, is still oppression.

That's true. But there are different levels to oppression. Would you rather be oppressed to those who hide behind a curtain, or those who are open about what exactly they are doing?

-Nam